Don't confuse pointing out that we have no proof that Hojo was as overtly crazy back then as he is later as claiming that he couldn't have been. We don't know for sure so it can't be used to assert either view.
Pretty sure I'm not confusing them. Pretty sure that's exactly what I've been saying.
Like I said, the assumption that he's always been that obvious comes from what happens after that. As such, you can't assume that Lucrecia had to have known what Hojo was like at that point. Plenty of abuse victims don't see the signs at that point.
As for Lucrecia's culpability, I'm not saying she doesn't have any. I was pointing out that your reasoning and use of culpability was how victim blaming occurred.
That is true. On the other hand, the cry of "victim blaming" has a tendency to shut down all discussion, and to exculpate the woman in the picture (because it's nearly always a woman) from taking any responsbility for her own choices and actions. I'm not convinced that Lucrecia
is a victim in this scenario, is what I'm saying. I'm also not extrapolating from her story to all stories of abused women everywhere. She is not their representative.
Lucrecia still has to accept the consequences of her actions, but that doesn't mean would've done all that had she not been in an abusive relationship with Hojo. That's how psychological and emotional manipulations works; it distorts there person's perception of the situation and causes them to make decisions they wouldn't normally take. We don't really know what degree of culpability she has regarding the whole thing, though Vincent seems to be largely on her.
So she has to accept responsibility for all her actions except her decision to get into a physical, marital relationship with Hojo?
She still has to deal with the consequences of her actions whether it's her fault or not and regardless of moral standards. That's not the same thing as claiming it's her fault she was led to believe Hojo cared about her in ant capacity or that we should ignore that emotional and mental abuse were a factor, so part of what she did was due to being manipulated into it. We can't really measure what was something she would do regardless and what she only did because of that, so we might as well just agree on he having to deal with the consequences even if we don't agree on the cause and other factors. Victim blaming comes into play when it's treated as someone's fault for not seeing the signs of an abusive relationship before or during it, as well as for not realizing there's a way out or how to do that. Human perception is fallible and manipulation can further impede one's ability to take notice of things they normally would, not to mention it's easier to see things after you know it's already there.
You're also assuming that moral standards about what was done during the Jenova project are the same in FF7's setting as they are for you, which may not be the case. That means that they could live in a society that has no problem with such things, even if you do. You can judge all you want about that should it be true but that means that it can't be used to prove that Hojo's inclinations had to be obvious. Out of curiosity, have you read any stories that portray genetic modification in a more positive light?There are plenty of sci-fi stories out there where it's a normal part of a relatively good society, so it's not like it has to be considered bad by everyone from story to story.
Ah, come on, Starling. The world of FFVII is not a real world. It seems pretty obvious to me, and I think to most people who play it, that any actions which seem morally unacceptable to us are actually supposed to be considered morally unacceptable in their world as well. Blowing up innocent people in terrorist attacks, for instance: Tifa and Barret come to accept their culpability in this regard. Sucking the soul of the planet dry in order to make money: this is not only morally wrong but environmentally short-sighted.
If morality that was unacceptable in our world was totally OK in theirs, then how could their story have any meaning or significance for us?
Values dissonance happens in real life. In some parts of the world, breasts aren't sexualized and it's the norm to walk around topless. Here, I'm pretty sure you'd get arrested for public nudity and indecency. Different countries have different age requirements for the same thing, since we don't all agree on the age of majority. In fiction, sometimes the whole point is to present a society with different values, so we can compare and contrast those values with our own or that of others. Values aren't necessarily homogeneous within the fictional work just as we don't all have the same values even if we live in the same society. You can see an excellent example of that in fiction if you've played Dragon Age or Elder Scrolls, both of which are RPGs with lots of worldbuilding. Even if all the scientists are fine with human experiments and live in a world where that's socially accepted, it doesn't mean all the characters within that setting agree or that they all share the same views and reasoning despite agreement. It also doesn't mean they all share the same values on others things. That's perfectly in line with real life.
What makes the protagonists more sympathetic despite their actions is influenced by their being the protagonists. We see their lives, their struggles, see them as people rather than just terrorists. We see their motivations for doing those actions and understand why they thought such a thing was worth doing, even if terrorism still costs innocent lives. There's often good and bad on both sides of a conflict, but it's harder to see that in the antagonist, since you're sharing the perspective of the people opposing them. Tifa and Barret explicitly feel guilt about their actions and Cait called it out, pointing out his perspective as a Shinra employee. Reeve's probably been an accomplice to a number of things himself during his time in Shinra but he's not defined by it either. In any case, the difference between the terrorism and the genetic experiments is that the terrorism is treated as morally unacceptable within the setting, whereas the genetic experiment is given no indication of being treated as such until it's about Jenova. Of course using the genes of an alien parasite that behaves like a virus is a bad thing. If it was actually cetra genes as originally thought and the test subjects weren't forced to live in a controlled environment, who knows if anyone would've taken issue with it.
I think it is a pretty straightforward message in this game that Hojo and Lucrecia should not have implanted alien genetic material into a human fetus. Not only was it morally reprehensible, but it led to disaster for the entire human race. They thought they knew what they were working with, but they were wrong.
They're like Doctor Mengele and his assistants, who saw no problem experimenting on Jewish children in all sorts of cruel ways. Dr Mengele didn't think what he was doing was wrong. It was for the betterment of the human race. Hojo and Lucrecia didn't think what they were doing was wrong. It was for the betterment of the human race. That doesn't make it right and it certainly doesn't mean we are supposed to think it was right, and it doesn't mean that everybody else in their world would have thought it was A-OK. The whole point of the Shinra Corp is that it has no morals at all.
We're in agreement about the whole Jenova cells thing, though you have to keep in mind that they thought it was a cetra and that cetra genes wouldn't have caused those problems. They made an error with the identification for possibly understandable reasons. It actually just occurred to me that when viewing it as an attempt to bring back an extinct species, they could've tried what was discussed about with mammoths and had a volunteer consent to in vitro fertilization where the cetra genes are used from point of conception. That probably would've made it less morally problematic, though you probably still wouldn't like it. That said, with Jenova that would've probably been worse than altering the genes of a foetus. In any case, the moral issue was more about the scientists in the setting possibly living in a place where none of their peers see's a problem with genetic engineering applied to humans and how that means it can't be used to prove that Lucrecia should've known Hojo was crazy from the start.
I know you don't mean to come off as patronising, but you really are. I'm not an idiot and I have read the occasional novel.
People asked me that kind of question for genuine curiosity and I didn't take issue with it. I figured you wouldn't either. I figured you did but asked because I don't know for sure, nor do I know what kinds of depictions they are and what you think about them. You don't have to if you don't want to, but I figured it'd be worth talking about given the topic.
I already addressed that point. They thought it was an Ancient but they didn't know that Ancient = human. These people were scientists and, as I said before, they must have looked down a microscope at Jenova's cells. They must have been able to see that her cells were not like human cells.
Apart from anything else, something must have eventually tipped both Hojo and Gast off to the fact that this creature was neither human nor an Ancient.
They know Ifalna and Aerith are cetra, so whether they know or not depends on when they found out about Ifalna and if she said anything about it. There's definitely an issue with Jenova's appearance vs Ifalna's but I don't know if that's a plothole or if the scientists were supposed to think the two were the same based on appearance, though I recall the party rolling with Jenova and Sephiroth as cetra until Vincent corrected them. Aerith and Nanaki may or may not have had a good look at Jenova's body but Cloud, Tifa and Barret all did. Genetic similarities were probably present regardless.
Regarding Jenova's capacity for shapeshifting, shapeshifting in general violates physics with stuff like square/cube law and conservation of mass, so there's no way to give a 100% scientifically accurate explanation about how that could work in real life. I'm pretty sure we would've made use of that by now if science found a way to make it work. In the same way, the lifestream creating more of itself in the manner described is very much metaphysics, since energy can't make more energy, just change form. Since genetics are a component and Jenova is described as a virus, the closest real life example of that would be retroviruses, who insert themselves into the DNA sequence of another organism's cells, which multiply. That would mean Jenova cells would insert themselves into the host cells and integrate themselves in a manner that would only be noticeable once they assert their traits. Jenova is more than a virus though, unless the body we see is just another host.
