Maiden of the Planet

[Dashell]

I don't know, honestly I lost track.

 

[crack]

I never mentioned anything about a red herring. You meant to quote Ryu, I think.

 

[Dashell]

Loonymoon said it actually.

 

[crack]

I lost track too.

 

[Vendel]

Lol, okay I worded that wrong. What I meant to say since you acknowledge there WAS a red herring about Cloud and Aerith being a couple, you can't then turn around and say there was no proof of them being a couple whatsoever. Because there had to be some indication that he did love her or else the red herring couldn't exist.

There is no proof of them being a couple whatsoever. There just isn't Q. And anything that indicates that they may have had some spark or that they might hook up is based on a lie.


That is what the red herring is.

 

[Dashell]

No a red herring leads you into a false direction so you're surprised later on. They made it look like Cloud and Aerith were going to become a couple but then she died. That's what the red herring is.

 

[Vendel]

No a red herring leads you into a false direction so you're surprised later on. They made it look like Cloud and Aerith were going to become a couple but then she died. That's what the red herring is.

Q don't hit me with this argumentative bullshit so early in the morning.

 

[Dashell]

it doesn't say what feelings. It could be feelings of wanting to reject and get rejected.

 

[Ryushikaze]

No a red herring leads you into a false direction so you're surprised later on. They made it look like Cloud and Aerith were going to become a couple but then she died. That's what the red herring is.

No. That's not what the red herring means.
You can drop red herrings clues that they might be a couple without there being any fuckdamn romance.
ALL a red herring is is a false clue or string of clues. It is deliberate deception intended to draw you away from the real conclusion

In this case, pretty much the entire date mechanic love triangle bullshit exists as a red herring to distract you from the real plot til later.

 

[Winter]

Aaaaaand, how many guys do we have in here debating Cloud/Aerith vs. Cloud/Tifa?

I'm not saying it works, I'm saying that's who it's marketed to.

and all of you faggots are shippers, don't flatter yourselves.

 

[Dashell]

It is deliberate deception intended to draw you away from the real conclusion

That's... what I said... it leads you in a false direction.

You can drop red herrings clues that they might be a couple without there being any fuckdamn romance.

I don't disagree with this. My point is that you can't say there's absolutely no proof of CxA being the intended couple and then say CxA is a red herring.

and all of you faggots are shippers, don't flatter yourselves.

AkuRoku 4eva bby

 

[Ryushikaze]

I'm not saying it works, I'm saying that's who it's marketed to.

and all of you faggots are shippers, don't flatter yourselves.

Fuck you too, sunshine.

That's... what I said... it leads you in a false direction.

To a false conclusion.

I don't disagree with this. My point is that you can't say there's absolutely no proof of CxA being the intended couple and then say CxA is a red herring.

Yes I can. Just as I can say there is no proof of the little indian who died from the the fish actually being dead. Because the evidence is fake. It's misdirection, leading to a false conclusion.
The very idea that C/A IS a red herring means that there's no real proof. Only misleading snippets that turn out to be nothing. False leads.
That's what we're getting at.
The Red Herring, BTW, isn't even based on concrete 'fake' evidence, merely toying with the expectations of the fans, only to crush them later, and afterwards, reveal the truth.

Let's analogize this to the stages of a murder mystery.
The little snippets of not really proof that Aerith is the romantic interest are the 'The butler did it'
Aerith's death is 'The butler couldn't have done it, you're condemning an honest man'
Cloud's loss of mind is 'There's something I'm overlooking...'
The lifestream is 'Watson, I think I've found the one thing I need to convict the real murderer.'
And the Highwind is 'XXX actually did it, here's how he did it, and why!'

 

[Celes Chere]

AkuRoku

PSH, XION FUCKED THAT SHIT UP LOL.

THERE'S AN LTD I'D LOVE TO GET INTO.

Though without Xion, Axel is a creepy stalker, and Roxas just wants to get away.

 

[Dashell]

Let's analogize this to the stages of a murder mystery.
The little snippets of not really proof that Aerith is the romantic interest are the 'The butler did it'
Aerith's death is 'The butler couldn't have done it, you're condemning an honest man'
Cloud's loss of mind is 'There's something I'm overlooking...'
The lifestream is 'Watson, I think I've found the one thing I need to convict the real murderer.'
And the Highwind is 'XXX actually did it, here's how he did it, and why!' .

And Aerith would have gotten away for it too if it weren't for you medaling kids.

The very idea that C/A IS a red herring means that there's no real proof. Only misleading snippets that turn out to be nothing. False leads.

So let's say this... the date scene as you mentioned is part of that red herring right?

So some people take that date as proof that C and A were the intended couple. I don't think saying "Well it doesn't matter that Cloud and Aerith went on a date cause he ended up with Tifa." is the same as "Well these clues lead us to the wrong person, it turns out Joe did it..." because in the end of that scenario, the clues all come together.

Romantic or not, they went on the date. And Cloud going on a date with anyone other than Tifa, sticks out. It doesn't come together as nicely. Granted he wasn't himself but you don't find that out until much later.

I dunno, maybe that's not making any sense but... I can see how people would think that Cloud and Aerith are intended because of the date... and then carry that though throughout the game, especially without the high affection Highwind scene.

 

[Ryushikaze]

And Aerith would have gotten away for it too if it weren't for you medaling kids.

... meddling.
And Scooby Doo hardly qualifies in the red herring department.

So let's say this... the date scene as you mentioned is part of that red herring right?

So some people take that date as proof that C and A were the intended couple. I don't think saying "Well it doesn't matter that Cloud and Aerith went on a date cause he ended up with Tifa." is the same as "Well these clues lead us to the wrong person, it turns out Joe did it..." because in the end of that scenario, the clues all come together.

Romantic or not, they went on the date. And Cloud going on a date with anyone other than Tifa, sticks out. It doesn't come together as nicely. Granted he wasn't himself but you don't find that out until much later.

I dunno, maybe that's not making any sense but... I can see how people would think that Cloud and Aerith are intended because of the date... and then carry that though throughout the game, especially without the high affection Highwind scene.

... Quex. Two things.
1. The date is still 'The butler did it'
This is before the 'The butler has an airtight alibit!' phase.
2. You can't fucking play 'Aerith's date yes' and 'High highwind no.' It does not work.

This is also the wrong fucking topic entirely. Take it to the LTD.

 

[looneymoon]

Or because romance sells?

You do realize I'm talking JUST about the OG right? I don't recall them ever trying to "sell" a Zack/Aeris romance. Quite the contrary actually, Cloud/Aeris or Cloud/Tifa seemed more the marketable romances. But never have I seen Aeris/Zack marketed prior to CC.

Once again. In fiction, every addition to the work must be considered important. Assuming Cloud/Aeris had honest mutual feelings for each other would render the ENTIRE Zack/Aeris addition to the OG completely and utterly pointless. You can disregard CC for all I care.

For example: my suggestion at the Cloud/Aeris romance being a "red herring" is because I'm trying to assert that the subplot served a purpose to the overall story. Because if you look at it, in the end Cloud ultimately loved Tifa (which is something we're all sane enough to agree on, thank god). This would mean Cloud/Aeris would really be a waste of time in the grand scheme. However, by suggesting it as a "red herring" I'm giving it a function - that function being to both divert and simultaneously foreshadow Cloud's revelation that he is not as he claims.

I hope I made that clear C:

Mind you, that is only refering to the narrative itself. I realize that C/A also acted as a means for the player to get close to the character through their avatar (Cloud) so that Aeris' death would be that much more possible. That's the beauty of the medium, I think.

I'm not asking anyone to psychoanalyze the characters or anything. Mainly I want a sensical justification of the plot. One that encompasses everything.

Lol, okay I worded that wrong. What I meant to say since you acknowledge there WAS a red herring about Cloud and Aerith being a couple, you can't then turn around and say there was no proof of them being a couple whatsoever. Because there had to be some indication that he did love her or else the red herring couldn't exist.

IMO Cloud loves Aeris as much as the player does beauty of the medium and all that.

In this case, pretty much the entire date mechanic love triangle bullshit exists as a red herring to distract you from the real plot til later.

This.

and all of you faggots are shippers, don't flatter yourselves.

I'm not above fapping to any combinations of these pairs

 

[null]

So I hate SE handing us limping turds and that makes me a shipper. Well ain't that the bees knees.

Also, meddling goddamnit not "medaling".

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

and all of you faggots are shippers, don't flatter yourselves.

I like IchigoxOrihime, JetxZuko, ConradxYuuri and FangxVanille. *girlish titter*

 

[Carlie]

throwing in romance isn't done to attract shippers, it's done to attract female fans.

That's not completely true, I for one care very little for the romance but I do like to talk about boobs

 

[Dashell]

So I hate SE handing us limping turds and that makes me a shipper. Well ain't that the bees knees.

Also, meddling goddamnit not "medaling".

apparently I spelled it wrong the first time I wrote it and I just clicked on the first option for spell check

 

[null]

Blaming spell check for spelling it wrong, lol

 

[Strangelove]

 

[minimosey]

JFC you guys, it hasn't even been a week since I last logged in and this post exploded.

And it's not even much about Maiden anymore.

My 2 cents:

Though, this does remind me, CC needed to have a scene of Zack trying to call Aerith on escaping, only to find his phone didn't work, or her number had changed or something.

I get a kick out of imagining that after the fiftieth failed phone call, Aerith got mad at her phone and chucked it in the magical waterfall behind her house.

Maybe he could leave a message like she did in Advent Children.

I found Aerith and Zack's reunion and conversation awkward and indifferent.

While I think their interaction could have used tweaking (especially her not knowing he'd died, which as already said was a wallbanger even with just original game canon to work from), I actually think it makes a ton of sense for their first reunion to be awkward and indifferent. Once Zack explained what happened to him it'd be different, but it's still a lot to take in all at once. Aerith is hardly perfect, she's not 100% sweetness all the time. I could see her brushing off Zack, not because she's trying to get back at him or doesn't love him, but because she's just afraid of getting her feelings hurt and is keeping them in reserve until she's figured things out and ends up temporarily going back to the "oh Zack was just a fling" act she had during most of her screentime.

It's not so much as shoehorning the relationship in retroactively, it's why they even bothered to add it into the storyline in the first place. Zack/Aeris has no narrative relevancy if it wasn't to cause suspect to Cloud/Aeris. You could make the arguement that it was foreshadowing to Cloud's identity crisis, but this could be done without the Zack/Aeris relationship. It's quite apparent that aspect of the story was included to cause suspect to the whole Cloud/Aeris red herring romance.

I think it would have narrative relevancy besides that. One of the reasons Aerith's death is so tragic is that she's such a positive, hopeful character in the game, even though she's been just as affected as
everyone else with a messed-up past. So it makes it really bittersweet that she's messed up over her dead boyfriend and moves past that toward being attracted to someone she has an actual chance with (even if Cloud would have shot her down--which is pretty likely--she at least had the chance to ask) and it's right after she makes the separation between the two that she gets killed. It adds more impact I think.

...also, what is with this forum repeatedly logging me out while I'm browsing it/responding to topics?

 

[looneymoon]

I think it would have narrative relevancy besides that. One of the reasons Aerith's death is so tragic is that she's such a positive, hopeful character in the game, even though she's been just as affected as
everyone else with a messed-up past. So it makes it really bittersweet that she's messed up over her dead boyfriend and moves past that toward being attracted to someone she has an actual chance with (even if Cloud would have shot her down--which is pretty likely--she at least had the chance to ask) and it's right after she makes the separation between the two that she gets killed. It adds more impact I think.

I think this reply makes sense. But at the same time I find it very hard to believe that the writers were unaware of the implications of having the Cloud-Zack sotryline while retaining the Zack/Aeris romance. It seems too coincidental.

edit; actually, answer me this. Aeris could have been getting over a past boyfriend... but what I'm trying to say is, it seems oddly coincidental for that boyfriend to be the same guy Cloud swapped identities with. I mean, there was a reason they wrote it that way.

I do agree she did manage to seperate her memory and what's in front of her during the date. IMO she was honestly attracted to him once she put Zack's memory behind her. The tragedy is that once she was ready to move on with her life, she dies.

 

[null]

...also, what is with this forum repeatedly logging me out while I'm browsing it/responding to topics?

It does seem to have a really brief activity timeout. It only does it when I take more than a few minutes to respond to a post, though.