Maiden of the Planet

[minimosey]

actually, answer me this. Aeris could have been getting over a past boyfriend... but what I'm trying to say is, it seems oddly coincidental for that boyfriend to be the same guy Cloud swapped identities with. I mean, there was a reason they wrote it that way.

It is oddly coincidental.

It's also oddly coincidental that Cloud just happened to crashland into the hangout of the last living Cetra/deus-ex-machina-in-training. At the time of the game, there really was no good explanation for that except it was convenient for the writers, as it can be convenient for the writers to have a minor background character serve two purposes.

Aerith knowing Zack--instead of SOLDIER #57--is also very convenient because it can be hard to write characters being hung up over someone without making the audience roll their eyes and say "move on already!" Like if Aerith had actually been on the dot with her talk about Zack taking off with a girl, or if he'd died years and years back when he actually disappeared, probably a lot more people would think she's weak for being hung up over someone who was a jerk/looong gone. But Cloud & Zack's backstory give a convenient answer for why she'd just be getting over a boyfriend she hasn't seen in years: he was flirtatious but he wasn't a jerk at all, and there was hope she'd see him again until very recently.

Basically, getting more mileage out of a plot thread that's already been set up. And it helps add some emphasis to Cloud's identity crisis that someone actually knows where he's getting his quirks from. (Arguably Tifa would have served the purpose too since she did meet Zack...but it seems a little unrealistic for her to remember the mannerisms of a SOLDIER she wasn't all that interested in and just took on a tour once years after the fact.)

It does seem to have a really brief activity timeout. It only does it when I take more than a few minutes to respond to a post, though.

I'm helping my mom watch my younger siblings. So...yeah, I'm definitely away from the computer for more than a few minutes every so often.

 

[looneymoon]

I can stand by that explanation, I appreciate it.

 

[Ryushikaze]

It is oddly coincidental.

It's also oddly coincidental that Cloud just happened to crashland into the hangout of the last living Cetra/deus-ex-machina-in-training. At the time of the game, there really was no good explanation for that except it was convenient for the writers, as it can be convenient for the writers to have a minor background character serve two purposes.

Believe it or not, there's a difference between coincidences in the present of a story and coincidences in the past of a story. Audience accept the former, but are, as a rule, extremely nagged by the latter.

Aerith knowing Zack--instead of SOLDIER #57--is also very convenient because it can be hard to write characters being hung up over someone without making the audience roll their eyes and say "move on already!" Like if Aerith had actually been on the dot with her talk about Zack taking off with a girl, or if he'd died years and years back when he actually disappeared, probably a lot more people would think she's weak for being hung up over someone who was a jerk/looong gone. But Cloud & Zack's backstory give a convenient answer for why she'd just be getting over a boyfriend she hasn't seen in years: he was flirtatious but he wasn't a jerk at all, and there was hope she'd see him again until very recently.

Yes, but it also brings up the aspect that she's going after Cloud for Zack, as we've said.

Basically, getting more mileage out of a plot thread that's already been set up. And it helps add some emphasis to Cloud's identity crisis that someone actually knows where he's getting his quirks from. (Arguably Tifa would have served the purpose too since she did meet Zack...but it seems a little unrealistic for her to remember the mannerisms of a SOLDIER she wasn't all that interested in and just took on a tour once years after the fact.)

Well, no, since they don't use it to emphasize at all- it's presented initially like Aerith is seeing Zack in Cloud, as opposed to seeing THE Zack in Cloud- but I do get what you're saying, they use it as subtle clues towards Cloud's identity issues.

And in the US/INTL editions, with the added flashback of Zack's demise, it definitely ties the entire arc together back and front.

 

[minimosey]

Believe it or not, there's a difference between coincidences in the present of a story and coincidences in the past of a story. Audience accept the former, but are, as a rule, extremely nagged by the latter.

Okay? The fact that it's a huge coincidence doesn't change whether it's because it makes convenient use of a character and helps support both characters' stories or because it's giving the lie to a ship. It's still a huge coincidence.

Yes, but it also brings up the aspect that she's going after Cloud for Zack, as we've said.

I don't think that can't be a function of it--they certainly played up the creepy similarity factor in Crisis Core--I just don't think it's the sole function.

Well, no, since they don't use it to emphasize at all- it's presented initially like Aerith is seeing Zack in Cloud, as opposed to seeing THE Zack in Cloud- but I do get what you're saying, they use it as subtle clues towards Cloud's identity issues.

...I'm being dumb here, what's the difference between "Zack" and "THE Zack". And yeah, sorry, that was probably bad wording on my part.

Although, looking at Zack's development section on the FF wiki, looks like you guys are right--says it was decided Aerith would see her first love in Cloud before Zack as a character was created.

Before Zack, Aerith was to see her first love in Cloud, though that person was not yet decided upon. Some early ideas even placed that person as Sephiroth. Later, the character Zack was placed to both serve as Aerith's old love and to solve the mysteries surrounding Cloud.

So he was made to do a little bit of everything (like his job!) but the reason that came first would be the main one.

 

[Shadowfox]

I think this reply makes sense. But at the same time I find it very hard to believe that the writers were unaware of the implications of having the Cloud-Zack sotryline while retaining the Zack/Aeris romance. It seems too coincidental.

edit; actually, answer me this. Aeris could have been getting over a past boyfriend... but what I'm trying to say is, it seems oddly coincidental for that boyfriend to be the same guy Cloud swapped identities with. I mean, there was a reason they wrote it that way.

From Nojima's comments in the 10th Anniv. Ultimania interview, it's no coincidence. Zack the character had been deliberately created and written to link the two.

Nojima: But with Zack, I didn’t simply bring him in just because it was needed for solving the mysteries. When I joined the development team, the concept of Aerith seeing her first love again in Cloud was already there, so I brought him in to link that with solving the mysteries.

 

[minimosey]

HEY, THOUGHT.

I know people mentioned a few...pages back, sometime before this got into shipping stuff that Aerith's appearances post-mortem cheapen her death, and there was the response that Cetra maintaining themselves in the Lifestream after death had already been established in the original game so it just made canon sense really.

What about the appearances that weren't established by canon? Not Aerith, but Zack in Advent Children, and all those other normal-person appearances in Maiden of the Planet? I mean...Maiden of the Planet kind of needs it or it'd have much much less original content...but bear with me.

One of the really messed-up things about Zack's death is he dies just in sight of the city, very close to making it to Aerith. But in the compilation it's turned into--hey, they're reunited in the Lifestream shortly after because she dies!!! It's still tragic that they're both dead and separated from their living friends, but they at least have each other for support. It tends to get seen as a bittersweet reunion.

What if Zack had just dissolved into the Lifestream and...that was that? I'm pretty sure it wasn't canon at the time of the original game that normal (...relatively normal) people could come back with Cetra help.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I'm pretty sure it's an idea that had shown up in fanfiction quite a bit before Maiden or Advent Children. Nobody really found it odd that a Cetra could manipulate the Lifestream in such a way.

Especially since it was already established in the original game -- via the Gi Tribe and the Beginner's Hall guys -- that powerful emotions could keep someone's soul more or less intact, preventing it from returning to the planet and being diluted.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

The whole lifestream thing is one big clusterfuck imo. Compilation did nothing to sort that out, either, but it's very ambiguity prevents me from saying it's not canon-continuous, or that it was retconned, because no one ever really explains the LS and the Cetra enough to make sense of it. Maiden sure as shit didn't clear it up, and Angeal coming back for Zack at the end of CC only adds more to the WTFery...and then there's the fact that Sephiroth can manipulate the shit himself by sheer willpower...

I just... **shakes head**

 

[minimosey]

I'm pretty sure it's an idea that had shown up in fanfiction quite a bit before Maiden or Advent Children. Nobody really found it odd that a Cetra could manipulate the Lifestream in such a way.

Especially since it was already established in the original game -- via the Gi Tribe and the Beginner's Hall guys -- that powerful emotions could keep someone's soul more or less intact, preventing it from returning to the planet and being diluted.

...You know, I always figured the Gi tribe wasn't human so it didn't bother me, but I forgot about the Beginner's Hall guys. I think I probably wrote it off as just a joke and not to be taken seriously at the time I was playing it.

...man now I will be bothered that Zack isn't right behind Cloud trying to knock him upside the head to trigger something for half the game.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

...You know, I always figured the Gi tribe wasn't human so it didn't bother me ...

Even were they not, they still receive their spirit energy from the Lifestream, and Bugenhagen makes this point:

Bugenhagen
"Ho Ho Hoooo."
"Everyone here's a Ghost of the Gi tribe. Killed in a certain battle."

Red XIII
"A certain battle?"

Bugenhagen
"The vengeful spirits of the Gi didn't disappear, and couldn't return to the Lifestream..."

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Am I missing something? Where does he say they get their energy FROM the Lifestream? I get that they can't return to it...I gotta play that again. Because, if what you say is true and they actually get their spiritual energy from the lifestream that completely null and voids any significance that Aerith had in being able to call forth the lifestream... the Cetra are useless... really.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Am I missing something? Where does he say they get their energy FROM the Lifestream? I get that they can't return to it...I gotta play that again. Because, if what you say is true and they actually get their spiritual energy from the lifestream that completely null and voids any significance that Aerith had in being able to call forth the lifestream... the Cetra are useless... really.

Are they from the planet?

Unless you're going to try to argue they're aliens. They're beings native to this planet. Meaning they were born from the lifestream just like every other living organism. Their strong emotions and resentment just kept them from ever moving on. They're undead.

They're almost exactly the same as the unsent from FFX.

I'm not sure how the undead souls of the Gi Tribe who refuse to move on and return to the planet, invalidates Aerith's ability to call up part of the Lifestream to take out Meteor.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Are they from the planet?

Unless you're going to try to argue they're aliens. They're beings native to this planet. Meaning they were born from the lifestream just like every other living organism. Their strong emotions and resentment just kept them from ever moving on. They're undead.

They're almost exactly the same as the unsent from FFX.

I'm not sure how the undead souls of the Gi Tribe who refuse to move on and return to the planet, invalidates Aerith's ability to call up part of the Lifestream to take out Meteor.

Do me a favor and read what I wrote again. I never said they were alien--JENOVA=the only alien I know in FFVII. I asked, if they got their POWER from the lifestream--as in they could USE it. Not returning to it, not difussing is one thing--but, yes, calling on the LS as a means of POWER invalidates Aerith's 'Cetra magix'. **sigh** I expect so much more from you...

 

[Makoeyes987]

Do me a favor and read what I wrote again. I never said they were alien--JENOVA=the only alien I know in FFVII. I asked, if they got their POWER from the lifestream--as in they could USE it. Not returning to it, not difussing is one thing--but, yes, calling on the LS as a means of POWER invalidates Aerith's 'Cetra magix'. **sigh** I expect so much more from you...

Tres was talking about their spirit energy (as in life force) coming from the planet. They don't actually use the lifestream at all.

Even were they not, they still receive their spirit energy from the Lifestream, and Bugenhagen makes this point:

They're just monsters. They're not using the lifestream or anything.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Tres was talking about their spirit energy (as in life force) coming from the planet. They don't actually use the lifestream at all.



They're just monsters. They're not using the lifestream or anything.

Thanks, that's all I needed cleared up. **goes back to adoring you**

 

[null]

@ the so-so ballot stuffer(s)

Maiden sucks. Your opinion is wrong.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Having heard the Audiobook, I have to stand by the fact that, overall, I do like Maiden.

Do I consider it canon? No - because it was not released as a Compilation Title, and the Compilation of FFVII is what is considered canon now. Because LO was released as a Compilation title, and later refuted by Crisis Core, it had to be specified as non-canon, whereas Maiden never even fell within the realm of Compilation Canon, despite being released in an official Ultimania book.

That being said - I believe that, (like Last Order) the bare bones version of the events shown in Maiden did happen within the FFVII Compilation canon, but not specifically in the way that they are portrayed in the story.


X

 

[sephirothpaine]

I think it's ok. I think it could have a bit more of Zack in it.

I do have a question about it though. Why hasn't anyone ever bring it up to SE on the grounds of whether it is or not canon? I don't care if it is or not, but it's a FREAKING headache to read peeps argue over something publish by SE, but SE is silent about. Last Order was canon for awhile, which some fans through a bitch feast over the whole who throw Sephiroth in the pit. If you guys remember why Crisis Core was taking a bit more time is cuz SE had to "fix" that scene since some one finally told them that it LO conflects with FF7.

Has Thelifestream.net ever tried to contact SEJapan about it?

 

[null]

If we're gonna get SE on the phone I have a shitload of more pressing questions we need to ask.

 

[Strangelove]

I'd be worried about bringing the site itself to their attention in case they decide they don't like us having all the shit we have up or something and start asking for it all to be taken down

 

[ForceStealer]

"Quit showing all of our shit from back when we knew what we were doin'!"

 

[sephirothpaine]

I'd be worried about bringing the site itself to their attention in case they decide they don't like us having all the shit we have up or something and start asking for it all to be taken down

Little too late for that. There is a fan club of thelifestream.net on SEmembers so they know about it.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

You could read my post on the MotP comments section about it being canon/not canon. I think clears up a lot, and I cba to C&P it right now just to post it again.


X

 

[Vendel]

BTW. Correct me if I am wrong. But didn't it say somewhere in Maiden that Aerith learns who the real Cloud is the the LS or some such?

Then wouldn't this CONTRADICT that?

[FFVII] Tifa becomes the only witness to Cloud’s blurry memory, and she also plays an important role in regaining his true self.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

BTW. Correct me if I am wrong. But didn't it say somewhere in Maiden that Aerith learns who the real Cloud is the the LS or some such?

[FFVII] Tifa becomes the only witness to Cloud’s blurry memory, and she also plays an important role in regaining his true self.

Then wouldn't this CONTRADICT that?

Nicely noted!

Aerith might not count on a technicality that she's not really a witness, (I'd have to know the translation a bit more specifically to see the wording and implication), but it does certainly seem to suggest that Tifa was in fact the only one seeing inside in Cloud's head. I'd have to find a specific quote from MoTP, but I believe you are correct.


X