SPOILERS My latest theory on what's happening in Remake

[cold_spirit]

I'm going to hyper focus on two quotes for this theory.

Spoiler: Aerith and the Whispers

I find it super interesting that the development team is purposefully withholding details on when Aerith began seeing the Whispers. We know the Whispers appear to keep fate on track. It follows that someone with memories of fated events would be the Whispers' biggest concern. I theorize that the event which caused Aerith to see the Whispers is the same event that gave her memories of the original game. How this event is portrayed in a future part will reveal heaps about the relationship between Remake and the original game, which is why the developers don't want to spill the beans on it just yet.

Spoiler: In with the old, in with the new

It's been stated in many ways that Remake is not meant to replace the original game. I take this literally. I don't think Nomura and the gang are seeking to reverse or overwrite anything with time travel shenanigans. Doing so would risk invalidating our memories of the whole series. I actually don't think time travel is involved at all, at least not in the traditional sense. I theorize a new function of the lifestream will be established that allows for multiple "branches" to exist at once. To build on the "life" theme, imagine a tree. Each branch varies slightly, but fate (i.e. Whispers) ensure the cycle of life and death is kept the same. Perhaps the Whispers also ensure things don't get messy when branches inevitably intersect (e.g. the singularity we see at the end of FF7R). I theorize the original game and Compilation titles exist on their own branch and some event (maybe another singularity?) caused Aerith in the Remake branch to receive memories of the original game.

Time to burn the midnight oil and open the ol' MS Paint.

Quick recap:
Beagle branch - where Remake takes place
Terrier branch - where Zack's scenes take place



Gut feelings
I've got no evidence to back the following claims. This is just what I feel in my gut will happen. Aerith, Biggs, Jessie, and Wedge will all survive in the Beagle branch. Zack will survive in the Terrier branch. I think Remake will have a very happy ending. However, we will see Aerith's death faked somehow, or some kind of revival/return event. All I'm saying is that she'll be back by the end. I just doubt they'd have us go through the trouble of defeating fate without it leading to some serious plot changes.

Cloud receives a vision of laying Aerith's body to rest in Chapter 18. Sure the image is all distorted, but Cloud's the hero, he'll figure out what it means and fight to prevent it. With that setup, I don't think Remake is gritty enough to have Cloud fail to save Aerith twice. I mean, c'mon, Remake has already revived Biggs, removed Avalanche's terrorist accountability, and removed the trail blood from the Shinra Building. The tone of Remake so far does not indicate to me that its bite is any worse than its bark. Consider this: the last time Kitase was producer for an epic, multi-title project it had a very happy ending where everyone survived and Lightning became a Louis Vuitton model.

I consider myself lucky to have enjoyed part 1's ending. However, that does not guarantee I will enjoy future parts. For example, I adore FF13, but am not able to sit through its sequels. I learned the hard way from another game the dangers of setting my expectations too high. For me, each part is a clean slate. I'm not going to "wait and see" how something unravels to decide if I like it or not. I'm going to analyze how something makes me feels right now, even if it is a mystery. I can only hope the combat, characterization, and soundtrack continue to be as strong as they are in part 1. As long as those pillars are intact, I think I can take whatever this ride throws at me.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

It's been stated in many ways that Remake is not meant to replace the original game. I take this literally. I don't think Nomura and the gang are seeking to reverse or overwrite anything with time travel shenanigans. Doing so would risk invalidating our memories of the whole series. I actually don't think time travel is involved at all, at least not in the traditional sense. I theorize a new function of the lifestream will be established that allows for multiple "branches" to exist at once.

I thought this was how we had been discussing the plot all along? Yeah, there's time travel, but it's the across-timelines sort, not the "Back to the Future" sort.

 

[ForceStealer]

Beagle branch
Terrier branch

I can't believe this is where we are...

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I can't believe this is where we are...

I dig it, though.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I swear this was posted here before somewhere.

 

[Stiggie]

I'm going to hyper focus on two quotes for this theory.

Spoiler: Aerith and the Whispers

View attachment 8064

I find it super interesting that the development team is purposefully withholding details on when Aerith began seeing the Whispers. We know the Whispers appear to keep fate on track. It follows that someone with memories of fated events would be the Whispers' biggest concern. I theorize that the event which caused Aerith to see the Whispers is the same event that gave her memories of the original game. How this event is portrayed in a future part will reveal heaps about the relationship between Remake and the original game, which is why the developers don't want to spill the beans on it just yet.

Spoiler: In with the old, in with the new

View attachment 8065

It's been stated in many ways that Remake is not meant to replace the original game. I take this literally. I don't think Nomura and the gang are seeking to reverse or overwrite anything with time travel shenanigans. Doing so would risk invalidating our memories of the whole series. I actually don't think time travel is involved at all, at least not in the traditional sense. I theorize a new function of the lifestream will be established that allows for multiple "branches" to exist at once. To build on the "life" theme, imagine a tree. Each branch varies slightly, but fate (i.e. Whispers) ensure the cycle of life and death is kept the same. Perhaps the Whispers also ensure things don't get messy when branches inevitably intersect (e.g. the singularity we see at the end of FF7R). I theorize the original game and Compilation titles exist on their own branch and some event (maybe another singularity?) caused Aerith in the Remake branch to receive memories of the original game.

Time to burn the midnight oil and open the ol' MS Paint.

Quick recap:
Beagle branch - where Remake takes place
Terrier branch - where Zack's scenes take place

View attachment 8069

Gut feelings
I've got no evidence to back the following claims. This is just what I feel in my gut will happen. Aerith, Biggs, Jessie, and Wedge will all survive in the Beagle branch. Zack will survive in the Terrier branch. I think Remake will have a very happy ending. However, we will see Aerith's death faked somehow, or some kind of revival/return event. All I'm saying is that she'll be back by the end. I just doubt they'd have us go through the trouble of defeating fate without it leading to some serious plot changes.

Cloud receives a vision of laying Aerith's body to rest in Chapter 18. Sure the image is all distorted, but Cloud's the hero, he'll figure out what it means and fight to prevent it. With that setup, I don't think Remake is gritty enough to have Cloud fail to save Aerith twice. I mean, c'mon, Remake has already revived Biggs, removed Avalanche's terrorist accountability, and removed the trail blood from the Shinra Building. The tone of Remake so far does not indicate to me that its bite is any worse than its bark. Consider this: the last time Kitase was producer for an epic, multi-title project it had a very happy ending where everyone survived and Lightning became a Louis Vuitton model.

I consider myself lucky to have enjoyed part 1's ending. However, that does not guarantee I will enjoy future parts. For example, I adore FF13, but am not able to sit through its sequels. I learned the hard way from another game the dangers of setting my expectations too high. For me, each part is a clean slate. I'm not going to "wait and see" how something unravels to decide if I like it or not. I'm going to analyze how something makes me feels right now, even if it is a mystery. I can only hope the combat, characterization, and soundtrack continue to be as strong as they are in part 1. As long as those pillars are intact, I think I can take whatever this ride throws at me.

Aerith surviving would not be a happy ending, because it would mean the death of something much more important, FFVII.

 

[Odysseus]

I think Aerith's death will remain, but the details might change. I just think it's too important to remove. Otherwise I don't think this is a bad way to look at the remake. I especially like the tree metaphor. The same base is where all the branches begin, but they are all unique in their own ways too. I've begun leaning more on the idea of the remake being a sequel, and this seems like a way to make it fit.

 

[Ite]

Aerith surviving would not be a happy ending, because it would mean the death of something much more important, FFVII.

As Lic said to me when I finished Remake, “We’ll always have the OG.”

I mean, that’s not a consolation, because the OG requires a specific kind of novelty appreciation these days, whereas a game made in 2020 has a monumentally broader appeal, less barriers between the story and audience, bells, whistles, etc. and it would have been really nice to have a replacement for the OG. That’s kind of what most folks hoped we were gonna get.

But the good news is they can fuck with the story as much as they want, because this quite deliberately is not a FFVII Remake. It’s what the creators want to do.

 

[Stiggie]

As Lic said to me when I finished Remake, “We’ll always have the OG.”

I mean, that’s not a consolation, because the OG requires a specific kind of novelty appreciation these days, whereas a game made in 2020 has a monumentally broader appeal, less barriers between the story and audience, bells, whistles, etc. and it would have been really nice to have a replacement for the OG. That’s kind of what most folks hoped we were gonna get.

But the good news is they can fuck with the story as much as they want, because this quite deliberately is not a FFVII Remake. It’s what the creators want to do.

Yeah, I just don't understand the "we always have the OG" argument. It just doesn't fly with me, it hinges on the idea that things can not retroactively be changed by new context, which I fundamentally don't believe, context is everything, and every new addition to a franchise brings with it some sort of extra context. Just like every new archaeological discovery changes the way we view the story of history, so does every sequel, every prequel, every movie, and every ultimania all change how we perceive the events of the OG, they all matter.

For me, fundamentally, a story where a large part of the emotional impact hinges on the irreversibly of death, cannot coexist with the knowledge that, in fact, death is reversible (at least from a player perspective). When I watch fellowship of the rings I KNOW that Gandalf returns in the two towers, that emotional beat will never be there for me.

So no, I don't think we'll always have the OG, because context changes the story, in which case it's not the same story.
I was expecting to lose the OG, I am ok with losing the OG, I WANTED to lose the OG, even if the remake had been an actual near 1-on-1 remake, the details would still provide new context that would change the OG, I just hoped that it would be changed to something that I would recognize.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I was expecting to lose the OG, I am ok with losing the OG, I WANTED to lose the OG ...

I guess I didn't want to lose it, so I'm tickled as a pig in shit with this approach. ?‍

Of course, they could still flub the landing.

 

[KindOfBlue]

it hinges on the idea that things can not retroactively be changed by new context

I think that completely depends on what the exact relationship between the OG and remake is, which is still to be determined. I think the remake does more than enough to separate itself from the OG even if the general narrative direction is the same (maybe).

I was expecting to lose the OG, I am ok with losing the OG, I WANTED to lose the OG,

This is so bizarre to me, why would anybody want that?

 

[looneymoon]

listen... I think the remake is dumb and stuff too, but there's no reason to completely hijack this persons theory thread to bitch about it

 

[cold_spirit]

I thought this was how we had been discussing the plot all along? Yeah, there's time travel, but it's the across-timelines sort, not the "Back to the Future" sort.

I know I've been discussing it like this for a while. However, there are others, both here and elsewhere, who think part 1's ending changed the past. And I'm not knocking that, that could very well be the case in the end. I just wanted to propose my interpretation with the added imagery of tree branches, be super precise with quotes, and contain all my thoughts in one spot, even if that means repeating myself.

I swear this was posted here before somewhere.

I've posted dumb diagrams in the past. The newest addition is the black branch representing the original series and the A and B points. Believe it or not, I used to be vehemently opposed to interpretations of Remake being some sort of sequel. In my mind it existed completely separate from the OG. Now I've 100% come around to the idea and wanted to post my interpretation of it.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Okay, I knew I saw this before and the terminology was extremely familiar.

.. Funny how it's been only 6 months and I already feel like there are AC levels of posts on the subject already lol

Anyways, the only thing we know through expository showcase and commentary is there are two timelines or dimensions here. How that translates to FFVII going forward is a mystery and anyone's guess. That's the only "known" thing. Attempting to parse how far reaching this plot device will go however, is like trying to grasp hold of a cloud.

It's like Deep Dive Secret Ending interpretations back in 2002 with literally zero context or information. You're trying to divinate creative trajectory too far into the future. I mean, that's sometimes fun to do but when there's this little information, all it feels like is setting up expectations and waiting for them to be either met or dashed.

For all we know, Yozora, Leslie Kyle's younger brother, could be waiting for Cloud at the Midgar city exit in hopes of passing on some guns and weapons to help Cloud and the others and fulfill his Focus.

Insufficient data, my dude.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Believe it or not, I used to be vehemently opposed to interpretations of Remake being some sort of sequel. In my mind it existed completely separate from the OG. Now I've 100% come around to the idea and wanted to post my interpretation of it.

Correct me if I’m wrong but if we call it a sequel, we’re presuming that the events of the OG had already taken place in-universe but on a separate timeline, right?

But does FF7R really need the OG to have “already happened” in order to work? For example, there’s some theories that suggest that Aerith or Sephiroth already lived though the OG and somehow went back in time at the start of FF7R, but isn’t it simpler to say they just know the future somehow? Or, if in fact they are reliving the past, that they’re reliving their own past and not the past of some alternate version of themselves on a different timeline?

That’s why I’m still not convinced this is a sequel instead of a remake, because to me the remake doesn’t treat the future events of the OG as if they already happened somewhere else but as if they’re supposed to happen here. I just took it all as foreshadowing, not so much a suggestion that the characters are “reliving” events that already happened.

Technically, both directions essentially do the same thing narratively. I just think there’s a difference between a story that already happened in another timeline being retold in a new timeline, and a retelling just being it’s own version of a story that was already told. All the Whispers do for me is create false hope that Aerith and/or Zack will survive or something (and I’m not falling for it, you sneaky devils).

 

[Makoeyes987]

There's obviously something at play here that is a new and unknown factor that separates the Remake from being a complete and total remake of FFVII. You don't need an interview or Ultimania to lay that out for you. The game shows Cloud and the others seeing glimpses of the future.

Future events of FFVII. That's "foreshadowing" as much as ordering someone at gunpoint to surrender their personal effects is "suggesting."

Something temporal is clearly at work here and it ain't foreshadowing. Because how else would the planet know and have see those events? That certainly wasn't in the OG

The real question is how this new theme and element manifests and moves the plot going forward. And trying to specifically determine what exact plot points will be effected is exceedingly difficult because that implies predicting a future creative decision that will be made by a group of individual writers, producers and directors who are also simultaneously deciding how they wish to precisely express their creative visions, as well. This isn't science. It's divination at this point.

 

[cold_spirit]

It's like Deep Dive Secret Ending interpretations back in 2002 with literally zero context or information. You're trying to divinate creative trajectory too far into the future. I mean, that's sometimes fun to do but when there's this little information, all it feels like is setting up expectations and waiting for them to be either met or dashed.

This is super surprising coming from you. I seem to recall you building a theory that the Whispers are around to judge whether humanity should be wiped out by Holy or not.

The developers gave us puzzle pieces to play with as we look towards the next part. I'm just playing with puzzle pieces. I'm sorry if it looks like I'm grasping for straws and sorry to the other folks that Remake isn't what you wanted.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Oh that is my theory. And I wanted to put on the record for when I'm proven right it's either confirmed or thrown out.

But I know objectively there is simply no way to know what will happen now. Creative decisions like this don't move according to specific rules. They may at times, but they're also subject to impulse and human emotion. I believe it's best to focus on what we know concretely in-universe. To predict something like the whole narrative this early, requires and understanding of the people doing the writing, not the text that's a consequence and expression of who they are and their creative decisions.

Like, who the team is, their work, beliefs, feelings and history would give more meaningful "clues" than reading the text. The text will lie to you (in regards to predicting the future) because its purpose is to tell a story and present a specific experience. Simply trusting the puzzle pieces to give you a sensical image or map of what's to come is precisely what they want you to do and allows them to steer you.

And really there's nothing here. You've hit the end of the road because they've intentionally failed to give you a puzzle with all pieces included.

 

[KindOfBlue]

The game shows Cloud and the others seeing glimpses of the future.

I don’t disagree there. I’m saying there’s a difference between:
Cloud & co. are seeing the future because those events already happened in another timeline and they’re reliving them
and
Cloud & co. are seeing the future because those events were supposed to happen in their future but now possibly won’t

We can make these assumptions because we have the knowledge of the original, but I don’t think a new fan would think this much about it unless they had some knowledge of the OG. And given that this was designed for old and new fans, I don’t think the developers expect every person to play the OG to fully understand FF7R. Pretty sure all they ever really said was that the remake isn’t a replacement for the OG, not that the OG is necessary to understand the remake. Hell, WE still don’t understand it!

Because how else would the planet know and have see those events? That certainly wasn't in the OG

I dunno, why is the Honeybee Inn a club instead of a brothel now? Some stuff is different from the OG without an in-universe explanation involving alternate timelines simply just because it’s a remake. Underwhelming explanation, sure. But I think it’s simpler that way.

I kind of look at it the way a TV show or a film gets remade rather than how video games get remade. I understand that from a meta perspective, I’m pretty much arguing semantics. I’m just focusing on what the ramifications are in-universe.

Like when Disney remade The Lion King, I’m pretty sure it’s not that we’re following an alternate reality version of Simba from a separate timeline in-universe where everything is 3D instead of 2D, even though from our meta perspective, we could interpret it that way if we want to.

I’m aware I could be wrong by the way, I just default to whatever explanation is the simplest.

 

[cold_spirit]

Oh that is my theory. And I wanted to put on the record for when I'm proven right it's either confirmed or thrown out.

But I know objectively there is simply no way to know what will happen now.

So, yeah, that's really no different from what I'm doing right now. No where do I state that my theory is the truth and that others are wrong. Again, I just wanted to post my thoughts on the internet. I didn't walk into your theory talk and remind you that it's futile.

 

[Makoeyes987]

So what's the functional narrative difference?

Whether they're reliving the events of the OG or not, we know that structurally, all the events of the OG won't be followed to the letter, especially now. The details of whether this is a separate dimension, an alternate timeline, or some other temporal contrivance has zero functional difference, at this point. Whatever fantasy time-space jargon is used to justify it will give us the same result.

The tangible and most important certainty is that we have two timelines. One where Cloud and the others are the same and at this point, still in line with how we (the audience) know them in reference to FFVII, and some alternate timeline where Zack seemingly survived what was supposed to kill him and now is carrying mako poisoned Cloud to Midgar as he intended. Zack living and dying cannot exist simultaneously; he's either dead or alive. So that, coupled with what we see in the ending and what's been said in the Ultimania shows us two versions of how this key event are going down.

How this will impact or be played out in subsequent games is a mystery at this point.

So, yeah, that's really no different from what I'm doing right now. No where do I state that my theory is the truth and that others are wrong. Again, I just wanted to post my thoughts on the internet. I didn't walk into your theory talk and remind you that it's futile.

You misunderstand me. I'm not telling you it's futile and you shouldn't do it. I'm saying that to get a better read at what will or won't happen, you would probably have a better read looking at who they are as people and what they've done. Not just what they're writing now. Like I said, there's nothing wrong with speculating and it can be fun. It's just you also don't want to set up your expectations too hard either. Because with this little info, you're essentially trying to perform ESP. But no, there's nothing wrong with speculating at all, trust me. I get that.

 

[KindOfBlue]

So what's the functional narrative difference?

Functionally, no difference, which is precisely my point. Narratively, depends on where they go with it. They could explain that the OG/Advent Children events already happened and that Sephiroth went back in time to prevent them. Which I think would put this game more towards being a sequel if that were the case.

Or they could explain that Sephiroth isn’t going back and reliving his past, but is rather just seeing the future. Which I think would keep this game as a remake in two senses of the word. Like I said, it’s semantics from a meta perspective but in-universe, it means something different.

The tangible and most important certainty is that we have two timelines.

Is it? The ultimania says “it is assumed that they should not exist in the same time and space, but aside from that, the rest is unknown”. That leaves at least three explanations:
1. There actually are separate timelines
2. It’s one timeline, but with altered events
3. It’s an illusion and we’re all being trolled

Zack living and dying cannot exist simultaneously; he's either dead or alive.

Or he was dead, but now isn’t. And now Cloud’s memories are going to be even more messed up, which is why I partly lean towards the illusion explanation considering what happens in the OG.

 

[cold_spirit]

I'm saying that to get a better read at what will or won't happen, you would probably have a better read looking at who they are as people and what they've done. Not just what they're writing now. Like I said, there's nothing wrong with speculating and it can be fun. It's just you also don't want to set up your expectations too hard either.

I guess I just feel like you didn't really read my post. I am considering who these creators are, I even crack a joke about Kitase making Lightning into a Louis Vuitton model. Likewise, on expectations, I clearly state "I learned the hard way from another game the dangers of setting my expectations too high. For me, each part is a clean slate." So I feel like I'm being lectured right now.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Functionally, no difference, which is precisely my point. Narratively, depends on where they go with it. They could explain that the OG/Advent Children events already happened and that Sephiroth went back in time to prevent them. Or they could explain that Sephiroth isn’t reliving his past, but is seeing the future. Like I said, it’s semantics from a meta perspective but in-universe, it means something different.

That's Japanese semantics and expression. The statement and intent of that statement is to illustrate that two Clouds with two different histories cannot exist simultaneously within the same space/timeline. Which gives the audience the notion that there's now a separate timeline or universe where there's a Cloud now who has a vastly different past experience compared to the one we know from FFVII. It's essentially opening us up to the idea that because we have a Cloud who is able to continue on as he is despite this major past event being changed, there's now a new timeline, especially with the new version of Stamp existing.

Is it? The ultimania says “it is assumed that they should not exist in the same time and space, but aside from that, the rest is unknown”. That leaves at least three explanations:
1. There actually are separate timelines
2. Space and time are different, but still the same timeline
3. It’s an illusion and we’re all being trolled

I'm not sure how 2 would work. Time and space are different, yet it's the same timeline? If it were the same timeline, then Cloud wouldn't be "Cloud" anymore. Causality would demand that with the changing of past events, the future be changed to accommodate them. And I don't think the writers are just baselessly changing or doing stuff to simply "troll." That's just silly, lol

I guess I just feel like you didn't really read my post. I do consider who these creators are, I even crack a joke about Kitase making Lightning into a Louis Vuitton model. Likewise, on expectations, I clearly state "I learned the hard way from another game the dangers of setting my expectations too high. For me, each part is a clean slate." So I feel like I'm being lectured right now.

Well your joke about Kitase is technically wrong. The Lightning Saga wasn't his last time as a major producer of a multi-title or expansive work. Mobius Final Fantasy was, and it certainly just did not simply end happily. And what he did last doesn't automatically dictate what his creative direction or tendencies are going forward. On the whole, Kitase is actually not known for just doing simple happy endings, and if he does, they come at a price. I wouldn't generalize or portray him as someone who's tone caters to happy, traditional endings, especially when they run afoul of the previous creative decision and perspective he's felt quite proud of and has spoken about numerous times. I think expecting the Remake to have a "bark worst than it's bite" is underestimating what it intends to do and is ignoring who these creators are.

Or maybe they've been hit with a Carebear Stare But I wouldn't bank on it.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I know I've been discussing it like this for a while. However, there are others, both here and elsewhere, who think part 1's ending changed the past. And I'm not knocking that, that could very well be the case in the end. I just wanted to propose my interpretation with the added imagery of tree branches, be super precise with quotes, and contain all my thoughts in one spot, even if that means repeating myself.

Hm, I think you may have misunderstood at least some folks when they've said that then. I'm confident I as well have been saying "changed the past," but by that I'm referring to the party's actions influencing an alternate timeline to go down a different course at a moment in the past (relative to our present).

At least here on this forum, I think pretty much everyone means it that way. Possible I'm wrong about that, though.

I've posted dumb diagrams in the past. The newest addition is the black branch representing the original series and the A and B points. Believe it or not, I used to be vehemently opposed to interpretations of Remake being some sort of sequel. In my mind it existed completely separate from the OG. Now I've 100% come around to the idea and wanted to post my interpretation of it.

Welcome aboard!

I dunno, why is the Honeybee Inn a club instead of a brothel now? Some stuff is different from the OG without an in-universe explanation involving alternate timelines simply just because it’s a remake. Underwhelming explanation, sure. But I think it’s simpler that way.

For whatever it's worth, it's still a brothel, just one with a nightclub.