SPOILERS My latest theory on what's happening in Remake

[KindOfBlue]

That's why I hate AU stuff, it makes everything kinda meaningless. JUST KILL THEM

I think this is why I prefer the single alternate timeline/illusionary world idea over the multiple parallel timelines thing. Going back to Steins;Gate, in that story there are infinite possibilities for different timelines but only one timeline actually exists at any given time, meaning that characters are unable to cross timelines and meet alternative versions of themselves and the only way to go back to your original timeline is to reverse the change that got you out of it in the first place.

Of course, we don’t know where the devs are going with FF7R but I wonder if taking inspiration from there would give the story more weight versus just having multiple parallel timelines where such and such character dies but it’s okay because they’re still alive somewhere else.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I think if Aerith stays alive, it will be in t he Terrier timeline, not "our" timeline. The devs have said that they're keeping the skeletton of FFVII, so I'm expecting Aerith to die - plus she needs to, for the story of life and death to take placee. If there's no death, the whole story about accepting it as part of life is gone, and it's a huge aspect of FFVII. And no, others' death won't really replace it. In the Terrier timeline, if Zack survives, then it's a different story that is going to unfold, because Zack himself threatens the FFVII plot - so it can only be ok if he survives somewhere where him living won't affect the FFVII story. Zack is the hero that Cloud isn't, so I do expect him to be able to save Aerith.

What if since the Zack from Terrier survived, our Aerith from Beagle survives while their counterparts die/stay dead? A Zack and Aerith from two different timelines "reuniting" and learning to reconcile their feelings for "each other" (i.e. actually someone nearly identical to the person they loved deeply, but still technically different) sounds like the kind of meta stuff Nomura and co. love to go in for (in this case, mirroring players' struggles with the remake).

 

[Eerie]

Ha, that's a tough one! But it's my belief that the singularity has created at least another timeline where Zack lives (the terrier timeline), whereas we are still on the OG path. So Aerith in "our" timeline needs to die. I speculate that Aerith in the terrier timeline has to live because she'll be the one who will create the singularity needed to reunite the different timelines into one, at least during the fight against super Sephiroth, the one we saw at the end of Remake and who will probably become even more powerful in his quest to become god. That way, the devs can also create either a parallel game in the terrier timeline, either some DLC where we get to control Zack and see Cloud and Tifa die.

 

[eleamaya]

Well that's what I'm saying. I'm saying it only clarified what we're seeing/saw. Not what's going to happen or what the overall intention is.

Yeah. Before the fan translation of this part came out, I was still on the boat who think Zack would be just shot after few steps he walks past Cloud & Aerith, died like OG. As you said, it's not hard to read that the lines above are clarification that Zack is alive. period. They also use the word "victory" to describe it in first ultimania and the recent ultimania, meaning that he really manages to wipe out the entire army till no one left.

Aerith could survive, but if that doesn't come at some other great cost, the narrative tension suffers significantly.

It should be, even Zack survival should have great cost as well... to give us the consequence perspective that changing destiny doesn't always end up better. For example, if the devs used #2 route that create two timelines and we get CC: FFVII Remake segment as a whole chapter, I think the time paradox or the parallel world must be fixed in the end, cannot exist together, or it destroys both beagle & terrier. And that's when Zack is gonna sacrifice himself, since he's supposed to not survive in the first place, "die" like Tidus who doesn't exist in Yuna's timeline.... who knows, he's the guy who likes to make EVERYTHING right anyway. and in the end, he'd be reunited with Aerith because I'm sure she would still die in all timelines

 

[ultima786]

https://www.reddit.com/r/FFVIIRemake/comments/jod35m
Any thoughts?

 

[Fiz]

Aerith could survive, but if that doesn't come at some other great cost, the narrative tension suffers significantly. At the moment I think they're trying to keep the fandom guessing of whether it will happen or not. Since killing her didn't work last time, Sephiroth may have a new plan.

I have an opinion on this.

Zack and Aerith being alive is just boring. Kill them Nomura, it's more fun that way


That's why I hate AU stuff, it makes everything kinda meaningless. JUST KILL THEM

I don't think FF7-R is even close to subtle in what it is, whats going on or in its intents going forward. I also don't think the creators have quite the same relationship with the story as you, or many fans.

Personally, I'm just happy to step back into this world and enjoy the ride either way.


Anyway, this isn't a remake in the strictest sense, its a sequel and remake in one. It's clearly tied into the novels, where Aerith is figuring out a way to stop Sephiroph who has become a cancer in the lifestream & the horror-show that's happening to humanity. Neither are happy and want to change the ending and this is the result of that.

As to what to expect. Well, they have said they will keep the main story beats in-tact but there will be changes. If we take it at face value and pay attention to what part 1 is showing us, it's quite clear what they intend to change and why. The entire destiny thing is hammering, with the subtlety of a baseball bat, screaming "look, we're doing this thing", that the protagonists plan is to change Aeriths fate (her to live) and to change the ending from the bad ending of the original (and compilation works) to a happy ending that prevents all the bad stuff happening in the compilation.

Nothings going to change that, they've committed to what they intend to do, and diverting away from that makes no sense at this point. Why on Earth would they put in all that extra stuff with destiny, with an explicit focus on two specific things, only to go ahead and do those things anyway? They might as well just do the 1:1 remake.

I think people just need to come to terms with this now. While it's possible, it's extremely unlikely she will die in this. I do think there will be a trade-off though.


If it's any comfort, I have a suspicion, given where her death originally took place, that we will have multiple ending scenarios with at least two paths. I wouldn't be surprised if the OG path is one of them, and a path that leads to a happy ending with the catch being that it'll be a much harder route to take. That's what I think we will get, with some minor changes and some stuff with Zack along the way. In regards to what Clement Rage posted, yeah, I think the trade-off is going to be related to what Sephiroph has planned and will probably spin out into a harder path overall, with some other consequences. Probably the whole "changing who we are" being a bit foreshadowing.

 

[Fiz]

At the theory.

I don't know, I think its either influencing the past from the future through sending a message through the lifestream, or a time "reset" of sorts. Maybe it is a multiverse/parallel timelines, but I kinda hope it isn't because that tends to lead to writers going overboard trying to explain it.

Either way, I hope they don't try to give a mechanical explanation or try to be really clever about it. These explanations tend to appeal to a certain type of person. Also, that's when this stuff either goes wrong because there are always holes, becomes absurd or becomes boring because you end up with way too much exposition explaining it. Sometimes the less said the better, keep it simple and focus on the characters and events driving the story.

 

[a_apple 2.0]

Nothings going to change that, they've committed to what they intend to do, and diverting away from that makes no sense at this point. Why on Earth would they put in all that extra stuff with destiny, with an explicit focus on two specific things, only to go ahead and do those things anyway? They might as well just do the 1:1 remake.

I agree, the set up right now for the remake is to change all the bad things that happened in FF7 towards a good outcome, Zack and Aerith's death will be prevented, Biggs is alive, Jessie and Wedge will be probably back too, the plate fall was as mellow as it gets and all the important NPC's were saved. Maybe that's all is bait to trick us but at least that's where the story seems to head.
Which is boring to me but I won't deny that's probably what we will get, also the moment the remake started to differ considerably from the originals story the game immediately became much worse so my advice would be to stick with the OG's framework

 

[Fiz]

I agree, the set up right now for the remake is to change all the bad things that happened in FF7 towards a good outcome, Zack and Aerith's death will be prevented, Biggs is alive, Jessie and Wedge will be probably back too, the plate fall was as mellow as it gets and all the important NPC's were saved. Maybe that's all is bait to trick us but at least that's where the story seems to head.
Which is boring to me but I won't deny that's probably what we will get, also the moment the remake started to differ considerably from the originals story the game immediately became much worse so my advice would be to stick with the OG's framework

BIB 2: Absolutely, we have two choices really. Enjoy the ride with this "remake/sequel" or walk away.

I don't know if it's automatically worse though, it depends what they do I guess. At least this gives us opportunities to be shocked and surprised by new things. There's no reason why they can't inject this with the same qualities and impact as the original in new ways. Change isn't always a bad thing, you never know, they could come up with something better. The way I see it, the bars just higher now.

So I can be excited about that. But then, I'm quite chilled about the story & I'm not averse to different things playing out with different shocks and tragedies. As long as they do it well then I'm happy. I know others feel very differently and thats fine.

Maybe that's all is bait to trick us but at least that's where the story seems to head.

If that were the case, then I think they'd alienate just about everybody. They've done something really bold and high-risk with a much loved story, a troll/attempt at preserving impact, or pulling one of these "save her but kill Tifa", "Cloud has to kill her", "kill Cloud" ideas aren't the ideas of professional storytellers, they're gimmicks and the kind of crap children come up with in the playground.

As much as people criticise Nomura, I don't think they're that amateurish.

In an ideal world, I'd love to see different endings, different possibilities. Super ideally, with the OG ending, happy ending, and a few others to celebrate this game.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

"Cloud has to kill her"

I still think this could be the best way to change that moment (albeit momentarily) without losing its significance. ??‍

 

[Fiz]

I still think this could be the best way to change that moment (albeit momentarily) without losing its significance. ??‍

Maybe the most shocking, but I don't think finding new ways to kill her is clever or inventive either. It's a bit desperate.

I really don't think shes dying this time around though. I'm 80/90% on this, we're going to get something new.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I still think this could be the best way to change that moment (albeit momentarily) without losing its significance. ??‍

What's a little mind control murder between koibitos, right?

 

[a_apple 2.0]

Change isn't always a bad thing, you never know, they could come up with something better

We saw them do something totally new towards the last two chapters and it was pretty weak, it reeked of everything that people criticize about modern Squenix, every new story element they added that wasn't just a foot note and wasn't in the original like the Whispers or Stalker Sephiroth was meh at best, I think the restrain the original was putting on the devs was the best thing that could happen to them since it kept Nomura and co.'s "creativity" at bay, but since the ending is literally a metaphor of the devs breaking off their shekels that the og put on them I'm kinda pessimistic about the new stuff we will get. The difference between original and new concepts and ideas is so glaring that it's hard to ignore.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I mean if you think their best work was simply their first full foray into making a main FF RPG on 90s era hardware, sure. However, a cinematic fantasy action flourish that's punctuated with a new overarching plot thread, doesn't automatically confirm the writers are simply trashing the entire storyline and overarching universe beats of FFVII, just to simply rewrite something new. Stylistic changes and narrative flourish don't just portend a complete rewriting of FFVII's metaphorical DNA.

Nothings going to change that, they've committed to what they intend to do, and diverting away from that makes no sense at this point. Why on Earth would they put in all that extra stuff with destiny, with an explicit focus on two specific things, only to go ahead and do those things anyway? They might as well just do the 1:1 remake.

I think people just need to come to terms with this now. While it's possible, it's extremely unlikely she will die in this. I do think there will be a trade-off though.

Plenty of film and video game remakes introduce new and sometimes completely surprising elements to their narratives that while novel, do not upend and demolish the mainstay pillars of the story they are based on. Whispers being defeated in a fight with Sephiroth does not automatically mean FFVII as it is known is now completely off the table. Nor is it a likelihood that people have to "come to terms with." There's a leap to conclusions here that's apparent. The "extra stuff with destiny" can imply and point to divergence with the original without again, rewriting everything because by your summation, they've committed to "different" so now they gotta go "different." That's extremely simplistic and binary.

Changes being possible doesn't mean all changes are to happen to the plot, nevermind that we know the feelings these writers have to certain parts and some of it would run afoul of their own aesthetics and beliefs. There's zero evidence to believe they suddenly want an FFVII where Aerith lives happily ever after and that's where their sensibilities and tone for the narrative has landed. Them staying true to their original theme wouldn't be a waste because you're assuming they've made some tacit promise to now deliver something entirely new which isn't the case. Especially when the context of how or why Sephiroth plays a role in this is still ambiguous. This isn't set in stone let alone now a story completely diverged from FFVII.

 

[Fiz]

We saw them do something totally new towards the last two chapters and it was pretty weak, it reeked of everything that people criticize about modern Squenix, every new story element they added that wasn't just a foot note and wasn't in the original like the Whispers or Stalker Sephiroth was meh at best, I think the restrain the original was putting on the devs was the best thing that could happen to them since it kept Nomura and co.'s "creativity" at bay, but since the ending is literally a metaphor of the devs breaking off their shekels that the og put on them I'm kinda pessimistic about the new stuff we will get. The difference between original and new concepts and ideas is so glaring that it's hard to ignore.

Yeah, I totally get that.

I wasn't a fan of the whispers towards the end, it was very ham fisted and in your face. Since they're doing this, sublety would have been nice. "This is our future if we fail here today" was corny also.

I was curious with Aerith and Sephiroph seeming to have knowledge of the future, and the visions. Those on their own were pretty good. I don't think the concept of "destiny" was needed, I'd have preferred them to have kept it to those and rolled with it, making whatever changes they intend without all the beating us over the head with it like we were too stupid to get it, and fudging in the death dodging. That way there would have been this sense of mystery, and that something was "off" without knowing what that was. I don't think people would be as hostile to these changes if they'd handled it better.


But I also kinda see why they did it from a "gameplay" perspective (probably not the right word). It needed some kind of finale otherwise it would have closed on the bike chase and motorball battle which would have been kinda empty. New players (and they aren't small fraction) who haven't played the original would have been left very underwhelmed. So I can see a technical reason for it being there.

I just hope that with that twist out of the way and in the open, they can make a great job of the rest. I can see potential to do something cool with it, I have some suspicions as to where it might lead. But, we'll see I guess. I'll judge each part as it comes.

 

[Fiz]

I mean if you think their best work was simply their first full foray into making a main FF RPG on 90s era hardware, sure. However, a cinematic fantasy action flourish that's punctuated with a new overarching plot thread, doesn't automatically confirm the writers are simply trashing the entire storyline and overarching universe beats of FFVII, just to simply rewrite something new. Stylistic changes and narrative flourish don't just portend a complete rewriting of FFVII's metaphorical DNA.

Plenty of film and video game remakes introduce new and sometimes completely surprising elements to their narratives that while novel, do not upend and demolish the mainstay pillars of the story they are based on.

BIB: I don't think FF7 was their best work. Maybe their best FF game but I think they've made better games in general.

I never said they were going to trash the entire story, diverting completely away from the original story and write something new. I said they're going to change Aeriths fate to some currently unknown end and change the ending of the game. That doesnt mean upending the entire story, the entire story isn't Aeriths death and the ending.

Whispers being defeated in a fight with Sephiroth does not automatically mean FFVII as it is known is now completely off the table. Nor is it a likelihood that people have to "come to terms with." There's a leap to conclusions here that's apparent. The "extra stuff with destiny" can imply and point to divergence with the original without again, rewriting everything because by your summation, they've committed to "different" so now they gotta go "different." That's extremely simplistic and binary.

Changes being possible doesn't mean all changes are to happen to the plot, nevermind that we know the feelings these writers have to certain parts and some of it would run afoul of their own aesthetics and beliefs. There's zero evidence to believe they suddenly want an FFVII where Aerith lives happily ever after and that's where their sensibilities and tone for the narrative has landed. Them staying true to their original theme wouldn't be a waste because you're assuming they've made some tacit promise to now deliver something entirely new which isn't the case. Especially when the context of how or why Sephiroth plays a role in this is still ambiguous. This isn't set in stone let alone now a story completely diverged from FFVII.

I'm sorry but they literally screamed their intentions in our faces, and no, what I said isn't simplistic and binary. Also, as I said, one event and the ending isn't diverging the whole thing. I think it will follow the same beats, and themes, with some kind of divertion down the line revolving around Aerith.

I said people need to come to terms with that it's highly unlikely she will die because I think if they keep on thinking the same will happen, they're going to be dissapointed. Now, I might be wrong but I really don't think I am.

 

[a_apple 2.0]

But I also kinda see why they did it from a "gameplay" perspective (probably not the right word). It needed some kind of finale otherwise it would have closed on the bike chase and motorball battle which would have been kinda empty. New players (and they aren't small fraction) who haven't played the original would have been left very underwhelmed. So I can see a technical reason for it being there.

It's not like they either had to do Motor Ball or the visual vomit we got in the actual game
That's what I mean when I say restrain is missing in all the new stuff, they could have included a Sephiroth battle but just do it in a more grounded way is all I'm saying.

 

[a_apple 2.0]

Now, I might be wrong but I really don't think I am.

This sounds like a Simpsons quote

 

[Makoeyes987]

I never said they were going to trash the entire story, diverting completely away from the original story and write something new. I said they're going to change Aeriths fate to some currently unknown end and change the ending of the game. That doesnt mean upending the entire story, the entire story isn't Aeriths death and the ending.

You didn't say that but that's what it functionally is. Considering how often the writers have talked about that scene and it's importance to FFVII regarding the cycle of life and death, nevermind it being one of the most key pillars of FFVII (narratively and in-universe), I don't see how that would be anything but upending the story. That's what it is, no matter how you try to spin it.

I'm sorry but they literally screamed their intentions in our faces, and no, what I said isn't simplistic and binary. Also, as I said, one event and the ending isn't diverging the whole thing. I think it will follow the same beats, and themes, with some kind of divertion down the line revolving around Aerith.

I said people need to come to terms with that it's highly unlikely she will die because I think if they keep on thinking the same will happen, they're going to be dissapointed. Now, I might be wrong but I really don't think I am.

They didn't "scream" anything. If they did, there would be no mystery in the first place. You're taking an implication as an overt confirmation. Their intention here is ambiguous at best. Certainly not a complete tell of what will happen and their narrative intent of direction. And again, fundamentally changing one of the key pillars of FFVII does not equate to following the same beats and themes. That is burning them to the ground. You're doing something completely separate from FFVII at that point. Which they have never said was the intent of the Remake even with the admission that some things may not be the same. You're making a huge leap to conclusions.

 

[Fiz]

It's not like they either had to do Motor Ball or the visual vomit we got in the actual game
That's what I mean when I say restrain is missing in all the new stuff, they could have included a Sephiroth battle but just do it in a more grounded way is all I'm saying.

Yeah, I get you.

You didn't say that but that's what it functionally is. Considering how often the writers have talked about that scene and it's importance to FFVII regarding the cycle of life and death, nevermind it being one of the most key pillars of FFVII (narratively and in-universe), I don't see how that would be anything but upending the story. That's what it is, no matter how you try to spin it.

Fair enough, I don't quite see it that way though. It depends what they decide to do.

They didn't "scream" anything.

They really did.

If they did, there would be no mystery in the first place.

Which is part of my grievances with it. Like I said, I'd have preferred if they'd stripped the whole destiny thing away and kept it as Aerith and Sephiroph seeming to know about things they shouldn't, and the visions and just rolled with whatever they wanted to do.

You're taking an implication as an overt confirmation. Their intention here is ambiguous at best.

I don't call repeatedly showing visions of Aeriths death, meteor destroying parts of Midgar and a world without humanity, whilst having a representation of fate stopping things going off course, culminating in Aerith and Nanaki saying this is the wrong ending, before you destroy destiny to change those things as ambiguous. No.

Certainly not a complete tell of what will happen and their narrative intent of direction. And again, fundamentally changing one of the key pillars of FFVII does not equate to following the same beats and themes. That is burning them to the ground.

It depends what they do with them. Also, this almost definitely is not a remake, it's a sequel and they have stressed that they do not want people to take this as a replacement of the original, they still want people to play and appreciate the original's storyline. They're going to make a big change and I think it's going to revolve around that.

You're doing something completely separate from FFVII at that point. Which they have never said was the intent of the Remake even with the admission that some things may not be the same. You're making a huge leap to conclusions.

Fine.

This sounds like a Simpsons quote

haha

 

[Makoeyes987]

I don't call repeatedly showing visions of Aeriths death, meteor destroying parts of Midgar and a world without humanity, whilst having a representation of fate stopping things going off course, culminating in Aerith and Nanaki saying this is the wrong ending, before you destroy destiny to change those things as ambiguous. No.

Explain to me how that confirms none of those events are going to happen throughout the course of FFVII-R. For one, none of those visions carry the 20 years of context and understanding that we the audience take for granted. Red XIII doesn't have a clue regarding what he saw, demonstrated by him calling that vision "wrong." That's actually symbolic of their success in defending the planet. Furthermore, the characters have no idea what will come next for them which means they have no ability or capacity to "thwart" any of what they've witnessed.

They can't stop Sephiroth from summoning Meteor. They certainly can't stop Red XIII running with his cubs 500 years in the future. Cloud's inevitably going to showdown with Sephiroth again. What those visions are is an acknowledgement that the planet simply "knows" it's course of destiny.

But the planet was never the sole arbiter of it's fate, as much as it wishes to protect and guide said future for itself. Those events happen because of the choices and decisions made by numerous actors, including Sephiroth. And Sephiroth is not abandoning his scheme to use the Black Materia. While the remainder of FFVII-R may now unfold without hooded spiritual agents of the Lifestream trying to ensure things take a certain direction, there are certain events that simply have no choice but to unfold due to the underlying circumstances and motivations that will inevitably collide. Things will be different but barring some radical new factor included, FFVII is still on course to unfold here, and the writers have not said otherwise. Change does not mean a complete excision of FFVII's core narrative.

It depends what they do with them. Also, this almost definitely is not a remake, it's a sequel and they have stressed that they do not want people to take this as a replacement of the original, they still want people to play and appreciate the original's storyline. They're going to make a big change and I think it's going to revolve around that.

They've never said it's a sequel and just because they've included visions of future events we're aware of in this game does not mean it's a full-out "sequel." You're again leaping to massive conclusions here. It does not need to be a replacement for the original because they will inevitably inject new creative elements and flourishes that allow them to tell their story differently, however that does not make it a sequel. You're entitled to think what you want but at the very least, don't state that the writers have "screamed" their intention to do something when at best they've given us an ambiguous whisper from behind their collar.

 

[Fiz]

Explain to me how that confirms none of those events are going to happen throughout the course of FFVII-R. For one, none of those visions carry the 20 years of context and understanding that we the audience take for granted. Red XIII doesn't have a clue regarding what he saw, demonstrated by him calling that vision "wrong." That's actually symbolic of their success in defending the planet. Furthermore, the characters have no idea what will come next for them which means they have no ability or capacity to "thwart" any of what they've witnessed.

They can't stop Sephiroth from summoning Meteor. They certainly can't stop Red XIII running with his cubs 500 years in the future. Cloud's inevitably going to showdown with Sephiroth again. What those visions are is an acknowledgement that the planet simply "knows" it's course of destiny.

But the planet was never the sole arbiter of it's fate, as much as it wishes to protect and guide said future for itself. Those events happen because of the choices and decisions made by numerous actors, including Sephiroth. And Sephiroth is not abandoning his scheme to use the Black Materia. While the remainder of FFVII-R may now unfold without hooded spiritual agents of the Lifestream trying to ensure things take a certain direction, there are certain events that simply have no choice but to unfold due to the underlying circumstances and motivations that will inevitably collide. Things will be different but barring some radical new factor included, FFVII is still on course to unfold here, and the writers have not said otherwise. Change does not mean a complete excision of FFVII's core narrative.



They've never said it's a sequel and just because they've included visions of future events we're aware of in this game does not mean it's a full-out "sequel." You're again leaping to massive conclusions here. It does not need to be a replacement for the original because they will inevitably inject new creative elements and flourishes that allow them to tell their story differently, however that does not make it a sequel. You're entitled to think what you want but at the very least, don't state that the writers have "screamed" their intention to do something when at best they've given us an ambiguous whisper from behind their collar.

I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

... but barring some radical new factor included ...

Like a second Sephiroth or a Zack who didn't die?

They've never said it's a sequel ...

They haven't told us what "Remake" actually means either, but they have insinuated that it means something other than what was expected.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I think it could be a sequel in the metatextual sense, but not in the literal sense of the FFVII-R game being direct proceeding events that have happened after the other games that have released before it.

You can tease that with the audience without explicitly making the game a straight direct sequel to say, Dirge of Cerberus.

As for Zack, his existence is certainly anomalous but unless he crosses over into the main timeline/world of FFVII, then FFVII is free to proceed as expected. His paradox will be dealt with, but as we saw with how Cloud still exists as we know him in the ending, his existence hasn't for instance, unmade Cloud Strife. I'm sure whatever is meant to happen will be shown along with Sephiroth, but at this point... That seems separate as it's own parallel plot thread.

 

[Odysseus]

These are the sorts of discussions I stopped having a hardline stance on because inevitably somewhere down the line some of us are going to have egg on their faces. "Remake" having a special meaning is something to be leery of for sure.