SPOILERS My latest theory on what's happening in Remake

[Makoeyes987]

That hint certainly sets up to imply that the writers are in a figurative sense "remaking" the story or universe within FFVII. Which would make sense in a metatexual way.

However it doesn't require the game to be a literal sequel that somehow isn't FFVII at the same time. It's a duality that allows the game to be two simultaneous projects at once.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I think it could be a sequel in the metatextual sense, but not in the literal sense of the FFVII-R game being direct proceeding events that have happened after the other games that have released before it.

You can tease that with the audience without explicitly making the game a straight direct sequel to say, Dirge of Cerberus.

They can, but they can also do it the literal way. For Singularity Sephiroth to be dropping his own lines from AC right after dropping the Shin-Ra building on Cloud (again, like in AC) is -- to put this in "Among Us" terminology -- sus af.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Thematic and literal parallels are funny because they can become indistinguishable without the full context to examine their strength and purpose. Yes, it very well could be AC Sephiroth due to those in-text similarities, or it all could be thematic similarities due to the writers expressing fondness and creative homages to one of the most influential works they've done regarding FFVII.

We cannot know for sure at this point, however the fact that this Sephiroth is using "Ore" as his personal pronoun for speech, a quality he carried when fully human, points away from that conclusion. Their personalities are somewhat simliar, however in FFVII-R he demonstrates a poised confidence versus the completely sadistic, hateful and detached inhumanity that borders on the divine and infernal. The Sephiroth here is different. The hate is there but there's also a bemused acknowledgment of Cloud's potential. Sephiroth in AC did not carry such expression. His obsession was far darker and derisively mocking.

If anything the Sephiroth in FFVII-R seems to carry a far broader perspective of things, versus AC Sephiroth's singular focus on making Cloud pay for his defeats. If anything, FFVII-R Sephiroth in Chapter 18 feels even more confident and self assured than in AC.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

This new "Ore" Sephiroth is post-Nibelheim no matter what. So he's also post-"Watashi" either way.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Right, but AC Sephiroth was of the mindset where he continued to use "Watashi", a pronoun that implies a far more detached, formal and "ascended" nature, which Sephiroth obtained upon dying, joining the Lifestream and embracing his nature as a harbinger of Jenova.

This next bit may be speculative however I don't think it's much of a stretch. But when Sephiroth died post-Nibelheim Massacre, part of who he was as a living person was inevitably lost. He may have discarded it, it may have been washed away by the Lifestream, but some aspect of Sephiroth's human consciousness and personality was lost and replaced by the ascended being he became afterwards. This is further demonstrated in Lifestream Black where Sephiroth again has to release some of his past memories in order to maintain his ego in the Lifestream and enact his "advent."

I cannot say for certain, but it feels like to me, that the Sephiroth in FFVII-R in Chapter 18 is the most complete, synthesized Sephiroth that has existed. A full combination of aspects of his humanity and his being as a Jenova offspring. Hence his reliance on "ore" with Cloud. I don't think Sephiroth is of the same mindset as AC Sephiroth, I think he's beyond that now.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Which still would entail that he's post-Nibelheim, post-"Watashi," and potentially post-AC.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Well that's what I'm saying. I don't think he's the AC Sephiroth, I think he's from beyond even that. He's a different Sephiroth than what we've ever had before.

I think there's a purposeful distance being constructed between that Sephiroth and this one in the Remake so that while it's still technically connected, the Remake is still self contained enough to fall within the game being it's own "remake" of FFVII. Like, how 500 years into the future of FFVII is very far removed from what happened in FFVII but still relevant to it nonetheless.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

That's the same thing I'm saying.

Any point after AC is post-AC.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Ahh, well okay then

I definitely think the Remake is overall a thematic sequel to what we know and have enjoyed with FFVII thus far. If that carries over to the actual text or not, remains to be seen.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Maybe the most shocking, but I don't think finding new ways to kill her is clever or inventive either. It's a bit desperate.

Normally I’d agree but there is a precedent since Cloud was close to killing her under Jenova’s control in the OG. Honestly, I can’t think of a better way to outdo her death than to have him actually go through with killing Aerith. It at least fits the original narrative in a way killing Tifa doesn’t.

"Remake" having a special meaning is something to be leery of for sure.

I’ve asked this before but could this be comparable to the Rebuild of Evangelion series versus the original? I haven’t actually watched either but my understanding of that series reminds me of what could be going on in FF7R.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I’ve asked this before but could this be comparable to the Rebuild of Evangelion series versus the original? I haven’t actually watched either but my understanding of that series reminds me of what could be going on in FF7R.

I think that's a pretty appropriate comparison. It's not precise, but the general idea that the new build follows on in some way as a consequence of the original is very much part of the mix.

 

[ultima786]

Anyone know what this line says in Japanese FF7 OG?

Cloud says:

I wasn't pursuing Sephiroth. I was being summoned by Sephiroth. All the anger and hatred I bore him made it impossible for me to ever forget him. That and what he gave me."​

What does he mean by "That and what he gave me?"

 

[Makoeyes987]

Cloud has Jenova cells. The physical manifestation of the link between Cloud and Sephiroth.

Metaphorically, that gift is what tied them together via Reunion. Furthermore, Sephiroth gave Cloud the impetus for revenge. The hook for pursuit.

 

[KindOfBlue]

I would’ve guessed Sephiroth gifted Cloud with some of that high quality shampoo and conditioner for his anime hair

 

[cold_spirit]

... you're assuming they've made some tacit promise to now deliver something entirely new which isn't the case.

They didn't "scream" anything.

I think we all agree that SE will at least follow the story beats of the original. However, I think we should also try to keep expectations to a minimum at this point.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I guess you're going to ignore all the other quotes they stated about the Remake then.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1287069752347594752

And the whole context of that quote is

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1285956785296207872

How the writers wished to create a new FF7 for a new generation using the latest technology available. That doesn't mean new from scratch entirely.

The "unknown journey" doesn't mean having absolutely no idea of what will come next.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I guess you're going to ignore all the other quotes they stated about the Remake then.

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I think we all agree that SE will at least follow the story beats of the original. However, I think we should also try to keep expectations to a minimum at this point.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Okay then. But why keep the expectations at a minimum-

...

Oh.

 

[Fiz]

Okay then. But why keep the expectations at a minimum-

...

Oh.

Because what they have done, and appear to be doing, is bold and high risk. Some of us have an open mind, will take whatever comes and judge it on it's own merits without getting upset or angry if we don't like it. Others take it far more seriously and might get quite upset. Some people are concerened and sometimes keeping your expectations low will lead to less ill feeling if things play out in a way that disappoints you.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I don't know how "bold" it's going to be but that's pretty much what I realized. Inevitably, that one thing is going to be changed that means something to someone, which will inevitably disappoint them and be the thing that ruins that part.

It's the inevitably of anything being changed at all.

 

[cold_spirit]

My personal motto is "keep your predictions high and expectations low!" lmao. I love the direction of Remake and I love theorizing. But if I don't like the next part, I won't let it ruin a single day. I have no control over this series. Zip. Nada. None. Can't let something you don't have control over have power over you.

Though I do think the creators mean well. Even if I hate the next part, I think I'll be able to extract something meaningful from it. Maybe a song, or a gameplay mechanic, or voice performance will stand out to me. These AAA games are so fetching big. There's no way everything will go well. Yet so many passionate people are involved. Their brilliance shines. It's hard to hate the entirety of a huge project like this. In fact, there's lots I don't like about Remake, but I've learned to take the bad with the good. That's my mindset moving forward.

 

[Fiz]

I don't know how "bold" it's going to be but that's pretty much what I realized. Inevitably, that one thing is going to be changed that means something to someone, which will inevitably disappoint them and be the thing that ruins that part.

It's the inevitably of anything being changed at all.

I have a feeling it will, if it goes the way I think it will. I really do think Aerith will live this time. Not only that, but I think her role is going to change to become more mmm... "current" and maybe shift into a more MC role with a focus on the battle between her and Sephiroph, maybe subverting Aerith herself, I also see problems involving Cloud (anyone notice the foreshadowing?).

In fact, I think we're already seeing this happen in part 1.

 

[Roundhouse]

In some ways, P1 felt like it set the stage for the remake to broadly be about Aerith vs Sephiroth.

 

[Fiz]

In some ways, P1 felt like it set the stage for the remake to broadly be about Aerith vs Sephiroth.

I agree, however I don't think it's going to become all about Aerith and Sephiroph.

I'm going to be careful with this because people can get very upset about OG criticism, but, here goes.


I replayed OG when remake was announced, I hadn't played it for a long time - probably a few years after it was released. 2002-2004, sometime like that. One thing that stuck out to me was how it hadn't aged so well, not just with graphics but the characters and story too. In it's day it was revolutionary, but today... not so much. For me, that's a thing I expect. Videogames were only just becoming serious so there were teething problems.

One of the things I noticed was how the characters were "Cloud centric". Rarely did the characters communicate with each other about their own stuff, they didn't really have, or form, relationships with each other. They also don't really talk about each other. They kinda exist in a bubble around Cloud.

Nor did they have much going on in their lives, or in the way of their own driving influences outside of their character arcs that revealed a single back story component. OFC the latter gives them a driving force, and their own stuff. But it was lightweight and not felt throughout the story. Even after their arcs are revealed their own motivations can feel on the backburner.

They were quite one dimensional really, even in combat not a lot set them apart.

In Remake they changed that, they're much more fleshed out. We have:

- Tifa and Barret not seeing eye to eye, ideological differences.
- Barret being more hostile to outsiders and cliqey with Avalanche
- Tifa more "known around town", dealing with stuff in her community
- Tifas back story introduced early - which allows them to build her character and her own motivations out throughout.
- Tifa and Aerith building a friendship & their own respect for each other
- Aerith and Barret through stuff with Marlene
- Aeriths work in her slum helping with the orphanage, bit of a do-gooder
- Biggs having a past with the orphanage, Jessies whole backstory, Wedge and his pets (I guess). There is a much stronger personal connection between them.

That's just off the top of my head, basically, they communicate with each, building their own relationships with each other that don't centre on Cloud, and all have their own stuff going on.

This Aerith and Sephiroph thing, I think, is part of that change and going forward this will be less Cloud centric overall. Just in modernisation with Aerith and Tifa, these were strong female characters in '97 but not in 2020.

I think Aerith and Tifas roles in the story will become much more "centre stage". I'm getting pretty strong vibes from remake that they're taking a certain direction with both of them, especially Aerith who, if we want to compare standards between then and now, might be the more old fashioned. I feel a leader role from her, it was almost her taking the group on an adventure rather than following Cloud on his.

 

[Eerie]

I think the feeling of Aerith being a party leader is due to SE expanding on her (and everyone's) role. Since Aerith's role has always been about the overarching story, she is now set to be Sephiroth's counterpart, as she has been depicted as such in various medias, especially novels (Lifestream White vs Lifestream Black comes to my mind). I really felt towards the end of the game that the devs were playing right into that. However it is t o note that at the end of the game, when Tifa looks at her for more guidance, she gives back that leader role to Cloud, so I am not sure until what point they are going to expand this. However she does know much more than her OG self, and is in a very different position than then.

On the same note, it is interesting to note that all the characters have different interactions and their own lives beside Cloud. Tifa's the one who gained the most about this, IMHO, because since she brought nothing to the overarching story, people rarely considered her as a heroine in the OG - despite her being one. While she is still centered around Cloud - her role taking care of the intimate story demands that - you can feel that she has been expanded on too, that she is a sort of "soul healer" of some sort - this is especially visible with Aerith when she helps her against Eligor (when she tells her that they found her, this is the answer to kid!Aerith being not found by the other kids in that hide and seek game) and then again in chapter 17 against the whispers.

You are right when you say that characters in the OG were very Cloud-centric, unlike Remake - and that's why it shines so much, in terms of characterisation; it's because the characters are just so much more than their OG selves. They have interactions with each other, different opinions, they build their own relationships that have nothing to do with Cloud. And this honestly makes it a better story, much more believable and palpatable; it's no wonder people are raving about Aerti or Barret and Red XIII's friendships - it's because it is very well done and people can "see" it, not "being told" it is.

Err, sorry, what were we talking about, again?