New things and plot points I want to see (spoilers)

[Octo]

IRL in slums all over the world kids are working and doing all sorts of shit just to make a living. Is it really so far fetched? Granted Marlene has a family and doesn't have to be self sufficient, but presumably the bar is an important source of revenue for Avalanche.

I get the impression the locals fear/respect Barret so in many ways Marlene is safer than a lot of kids in the slums.

 

[ForceStealer]

Big enough of an issue me thinks, yes. We're supposed to sympathize with Barret the family man, as a contrast to his aggressive persona and eco-terrorist activities. If he just leaves 4-year-old Marlene without a supervisor, that's going to raise eyebrows through the roof and make Barret less believable as a father figure.

Less so than one whose day job is a terrorist?

And that will hopefully be made clear via the higher graphical fidelity and with the updated script. With the presentation of the original game, numerous scenes are ambiguous in this way and leave themselves open for questionable interpretations. Your interpretation makes sense Force but it's clearly not the only perspective around.

I mean, they leave for the Reactor 5 mission in the middle of the night (11:42 by the time they're on the train) and there is NO ONE in the bar, that kind of implies it's closed. Unless it's really under-performing, which doesn't sound like it's the case.

 

[Shademp]

Less so than one whose day job is a terrorist?

The phrasing of this question confuses me so I don't know what you are asking.

I maintain that if Marlene is left without a supervisor in the remake after they leave the bar, then Barret will look worse for it as a father. It will also appear inconsistent with how much Barret cares for Marlene in the rest of the story. I can shrug this detail off in the original game as a humorous observation due to the cartoon-y presentation, but I just can't see it working in the remake.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[ChipNoir]

Less so than one whose day job is a terrorist?

The phrasing of this question confuses me so I don't know what you are asking.

I maintain that if Marlene is left without a supervisor in the remake after they leave the bar, then Barret will look worse for it as a father. It will also appear inconsistent with how much Barret cares for Marlene in the rest of the story. I can shrug this detail off in the original game as a humorous observation due to the cartoon-y presentation, but I just can't see it working in the remake.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

Except in the game, Barret already calls himself out on it when he talks to Elmyra, and its a very serious moment. He knows he should be at Marlene's side, but his quest for vengeance is so ingrained in who he is, he can't ignore it, and it pretty much rips him apart on the inside. It's an overt character flaw that makes him who he is.

Life in Midgar Slums however, reminds me of Detroit more than any other place. I've lived there, albeit only for a short period of time, but I can say that the people of those sort of neighborhoods keep a close eye on each other. My father lived there for much longer than me, and explained to me how at one point his car had been jacked. Practically half the neighborhood turned up on his doorstep at 6 in the morning to check on him, and make sure he was okay.

People have this dramatic idea that low income, or even destitute places, be the slums, trailer parks, or even shanty towns, are these harsh lawless places where nobody is ever safe. Its true, there are desperate people; My bike was ripped off it's chain by some asshole in the middle of the night. But for the most part, they become more like small villages. Everyone looks after each other. Sector 7 seems to have very few people living there, and they all have likely known each other for decades; Just look at all the people who came out to bid Johnny farewell.

I'm pretty sure they all know who Marlene is, and would make sure nobody, or any monsters would bring her to harm. Not to mention they also probably know that Barret, Tifa, and the rest of Avalanche would rip them in half if anyone DID try to hurt her. As for Marlene just being on her own, she's likely had to mature quickly, and understands not to do anything overtly stupid. I do think it'd make a little more sense to age her up to 6/7 though. Even in AC, she seemed more based on 9-10 year old.

In my mind, Marlene is just left to her own devices, and everyone who lives there knows not to go into the unattended bar owned by a woman who can punch through metal, and frequented by a 7 ft tall man with a gun on his arm, who could probably benchpress a car. Marlene is just "Holding down the fortress" as adults like to say to kids when they have no choice but to leave them alone for a while.

 

[Shademp]

Except in the game, Barret already calls himself out on it when he talks to Elmyra, and its a very serious moment.

I always looked at the scene as only concerning the struggle of Barret wanting to be there for Marlene versus fighting to save the planet, not why he seemingly leaves Marlene without any supervision at all at times. These are two different nuances of the same parenting issue, and Barret admitting his character flaw only addresses the former and not the latter.

Though admittedly, Elmyra's phrasing doesn't help me.

Elmyra
“You're her father!?
How in the world could you ever leave
a child alone like that!?”

Barret
“…Please don't start with that.
I'm always thinkin' about what
might happen to Marlene, if I…”
“But you gotta understand somethin'…
…I don't got any answers.
I wanna be with Marlene…
But I gotta fight.”
“'Cause if I don't…the Planet's gonna die.”
“So I'm gonna keep fightin'!”
“But inside I'm always thinkin' of her.
I just wanna be with her…always.”
“See? I'm goin' in circles, now.”


Elmyra
“…I think I know what you mean.
She's upstairs asleep,
Why don't you go and see her?”

My interpretation is still that the scene concerns why Barret isn't there for Marlene, not why Marlene is left without a babysitter.

 

[Fangu]

IRL in slums all over the world kids are working and doing all sorts of shit just to make a living. Is it really so far fetched?

SHE'S FOUR YEARS OLD!

 

[Octo]

Yeah, and in some places kids that young are living on the streets. Midgar - and the slums in particular - is meant to be a shitty horrible place to live, so I don't feel like that's incongruous.

 

[Fangu]

How even is a four year old going to manage a bar by herself? Talk to customers? Handle money? She can't even lift a two litre bottle!

 

[Octo]

Freybs could

Maybe not a 2 litre bottle. I don't know the details, I reckon if the other people in sector 7 are aware, flitting in and out. Maybe some shit is self service. I can't imagine anything in there is all that complex, probably just beer and then a few spirits. I can still see it working after a fashion.

 

[Fangu]

Yeah but could a four year old handle customers who argue about the bill? Who wants suggestions for what type of liquor to get? To know how to tell people in a nice way that we're closing up and you have to go home nao? Why would a bar in a slum be easier to handle than one in an area well off, idgi

It's not just fetching stuff and accepting money, that's 5% of the job

 

[ForceStealer]

If there's no one in a bar at 1145 PM, ain't no one coming in that bar. It was closed.

 

[ChipNoir]

If there's no one in a bar at 1145 PM, ain't no one coming in that bar. It was closed.

Where are you getting 11:45 from? I got the impression that the Sector 5 mission was the following morning. That'd more explain why it's empty. Most people. even poor slummies, don't drink before noon.

Edit: Checked the script. It does say 11:45, but that could mean some assumed time skip through the morning. It just makes more sense they went during the morning, given the line of events.

 

[Octo]

but also:"This city don't have no day or night." - Barret

 

[ForceStealer]

Why does it make more sense that they went in the morning? Why would you raid it during the day when there are likely to be more workers/guards there?

But even if it was the morning, that still means the bar is closed and Marlene is not serving customers ya crazies.

 

[fancy]

Regardless of when they go on the mission, leaving a four year old by her lonesome in something as seedy as a bar in the Slums comes off as a bit ludicrous and paints Barret as an unsympathetic father figure...at face value. I'm not actually against the idea of leaving Marlene behind in the bar, but it would need to be established in the game narrative that Barret is too feared/respected for anyone to mess with Marlene or steal from the bar for that to be okay, methinks, because I don't think the audience ought to be trusted to make that assumption. That is to say, I'm guessing most of the new players whose first impression of FFVII is going to be through the Remake will just take Barret to be a shitty dad if Marlene is left behind without some semblance of a babysitter because I doubt most of them would be jumping to an assumption such as: "Oh, everyone must know each other in the Slums and they all must sort of look after each other or otherwise fear Barret and the gang and so know not to mess with Marlene."

Perhaps they'd come to this upon further thought, but surely not as an immediate impression?

Having said all this, I think what I'd like best is Barret leaving Marlene behind by herself, but him acknowledging that it isn't the best idea, even if he does shut down and lock up the bar. However, as nothing has happened to her yet after all this time, he continues to do it until, of course, Seven collapses, and Barret is afforded an opportunity to reflect on his responsibility to Marlene.

 

[ForceStealer]

 

[Shademp]

As geeks, we continuously discuss mole hills. Nothing strange there. Sometimes the discussion is also about whether the mole hill exists or not.

 

[ChipNoir]

Regardless of when they go on the mission, leaving a four year old by her lonesome in something as seedy as a bar in the Slums comes off as a bit ludicrous and paints Barret as an unsympathetic father figure...at face value. I'm not actually against the idea of leaving Marlene behind in the bar, but it would need to be established in the game narrative that Barret is too feared/respected for anyone to mess with Marlene or steal from the bar for that to be okay, methinks, because I don't think the audience ought to be trusted to make that assumption. That is to say, I'm guessing most of the new players whose first impression of FFVII is going to be through the Remake will just take Barret to be a shitty dad if Marlene is left behind without some semblance of a babysitter because I doubt most of them would be jumping to an assumption such as: "Oh, everyone must know each other in the Slums and they all must sort of look after each other or otherwise fear Barret and the gang and so know not to mess with Marlene."

Perhaps they'd come to this upon further thought, but surely not as an immediate impression?

Having said all this, I think what I'd like best is Barret leaving Marlene behind by herself, but him acknowledging that it isn't the best idea, even if he does shut down and lock up the bar. However, as nothing has happened to her yet after all this time, he continues to do it until, of course, Seven collapses, and Barret is afforded an opportunity to reflect on his responsibility to Marlene.

I unno, Barret cleared that bar out in two seconds flat when they first get back.

@Ramza: The dialogue mostly. "How did you sleep last night." after Cloud has obviously slept in a corner. The bright music. Johnny leaving in the morning makes more thematic sense than leaving in the middle of the night, the ShinRa exec leaving for work.

 

[hian]

Why not just change Marlene's age somewhat? I mean, right off the bat, that girl is way too coherent/lucid and physically capable (you can see her behind the bar mixing drinks or whatever, if I remember correctly) for a four year old (and I'm saying this as a person who has taught hundreds of four year olds at this point).
It makes me think they just kinda tacked that age on her without really thinking about its implications, which is a pretty simple oversight to do when you're crafting a narrative as big as FFVII's. Or maybe the team just didn't know how to write children well.

Still though, as for Barret leaving Marlene behind -
Barret is an eco-terrorist, fighting a global cabal company. I'm not sure leaving Barret behind is out of character for a guy who pretty much paints a giant fetching target on his (and everyone he knows and cares about) back by what he does.
How is putting Marlene at risk by leaving her alone in a bar in the slums to go blow up a reactor any more of a stretch than Barret putting Marlene at risk by going on a personal vendetta against what amounts to a world government?

And as for why leaving Marlene in the bar shouldn't be much of a problem - Barret, the owner or co-owner (if Tifa is the other owner) of the bar, is a giant of a man who the night before just chased the customers out by blasting his machine gun arm all over the place. The bar also doesn't seem likely to see a lot of customers except regulars.
Knowing that, I don't think it likely that the bar would be frequented by difficult customers who'd try to mess around with Marlene.

Simply put - I don't think leaving Marlene is out of character for Barret, and I don't think it's a stretch given all the other ridiculous stuff going on in the game at that point.
If complaints are to be made about this, I think people need to realize the bigger structural issues with the writing in general, and that there is probably a laundry list of stuff that should should be fixed prior, and leading up to that problem.

 

[Fangu]

Why not just change Marlene's age somewhat?

I was thinking of that. I'd rather see her bumped in age than the babysitter scenario

 

[Roger]

Marlene not being old enough to know anyone other then Barret as her father is important to the Dyne story as is Barret only recently embarking on his revenge against Shinra. I'd prefer the babysitter idea.

 

[Octo]

^thats a goodpoint, marlene has definitely bonded/imprinted on barret.

then again they could put the destruction of corel earlier, and still make her older, but that probably fucks up the timeline somehow?

 

[fancy]

Spoiler: Whenever I contemplate the Compilation timeline.

 

[ChipNoir]

Spoiler: Whenever I contemplate the Compilation timeline.

but then, I'm kind of high atm so that could do with this brain clog I'm having

aaaand the winner of the Most Derpishly Adorable goes to Fancy-pants.

 

[fancy]

*wipes tears* and I’d like to especially thank my Papa for this award, who used to come home reeking of the soot and smog from whatever the hell he’d go out to blow up. The regular inhalation of these fumes, as I’m sure he could tell you, played a tremendous part in my derpish development.