New TLS Front Page

[Fangu]

Ok, so the plan is to come up with a new Front Page that will make it easier to navigate the stuff that's on TLS.

Yop set up a WordPress test site that we'll be fiddling with. I just did this thread because I wanted to log my updates for people on the project to see. So I'll do that in the next post and reserve this first for 'general stuff'. I want to do like a more detailed Project Plan for this, but as I said I'll edit this post later because it's almost midnight and I need to get this out of the way



Details on project
(Correct me if faulty)

PEOPLE
Project Manager: Shademp
His bitches: Yop (all things haxx0r and server related, development if he has the time + final say in all tech related stuff), Flintlock (graphics + design), me (development: WordPress, PHP)

SCOPE
As of March 31st 2012: Update the Front Page to make it easier to navigate the stuff on TLS. Use WordPress as a base for storing content - will look into other stuff like WikiMedia. Do a self-surviving theme and widgets to make the maintenance job less painful.

TIME LINE
* Agree on basic functions and overall look: May 1st 2012
* End of restructuring project: Summer 2012
(Other stuff needs to be on this list, will update as we go along)
(I know this time line looks horrendous, but I believe it to be realistic )

The test site is running properly, is fiddling with stuff. Next update due over Easter, April 10th - meaning I will have something to present then, but probably it'll be before then.

April 4th: I've written a draft for the documentation. Note: this is just a draft, and a shitty one too. It's more of personal notes so I'll remember which parts I have to include in the actual thing.

CURRENT STATUS

Under public review, see page 14 and beyond.

 

[Fangu]

Okay so what I did was to use FTP to manually install the newest version of WordPress (from here on out now just 'WP'). The running version was 3.3, I updated to 3.3.1. We want to test everything on the latest version. Everything seems fine so far, but I haven't tested everything of course. All plugins reactivated. The ones in use were:

Akismet
All in One SEO Pack
CleanerGallery
Contact Form 7
Disable Registration Email
Exclude Pages from Navigation
Flexible Lightbox
Google Analyticator
Google XML Sitemaps
Really Simple CAPTCHA
Scissors for v2.9
Subscribe to Gomments
Wordpress Mobile Edition
WP Ajax Edit Comments
WP Super Cahcethe wrong account

Note to self: To see which version of WP a gathering of WP files are: Open /wp-includes/version.php

The only problem I see as of now is that the front page of the Admin panel still says the running version is 3.3. From what I've found online (like this comment), this might be a memory problem on the server, so I'll let it marinate over the night and see what happens, and then contact Yop tomorrow if it's still faulty.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

This needs to happen. I fully support this.

 

[Tennyo]

Is 3.3.1 the new version of WP that was planned to come out this year? Or is that version not out yet?

 

[Fangu]

Is 3.3.1 the new version of WP that was planned to come out this year? Or is that version not out yet?

http://wordpress.org/about/roadmap/

Version Planned
3.4 2012
3.5 2012
3.6 2012

There are new releases every 3-4 months, plus smaller updates (like 3.3.1, 3.3.2 etc) in between. 3.3.1 is the newest version right now.

There will always be a new version. However I heard someone saying there is going to be a larger change later this year. (Was it you, Flint?) I'll have to look into the versions later.

Regardless of that, WordPress will at heart always be a post based system. Even if there are changes, the way the file system is built hasn't changed much over the years. So even if we start looking into stuff now, it's not like a newer version will turn everything upside down.

The main focus right now, as I see it, is to fiddle around with the latest release and loosely do a draft of what we want the finished product to be. I imagine this to be quite rough: taking off a few features here, adding something here. When we've found a suitable solution, the real implementation starts based on an agreed release, and hopefully I've learned enough to actually build something that can survive on its own without having to do a serious amount of fixes every time there is a new release. The dream is to be able to use the 'Automatic Update' button. This should be doable.

Another think I'm looking into is to make the TLS theme a child of one of the default themes. This probably means raeping Pixel and Yop's tweaked themes and CSS so we'll see how far I get with that until they hit me in the head with an [insert heavy object I'm tired]

So yeah.

1. Decide on wanted function and features (and fuck around with WikiMedia or other crap to see if we like it)
2. Start seriously planning regarding release and implementation (to build it properly and not make a mess)
3. Do stuff and get them done.

Edit: Yop, I tried hard-editing wp-admin/about.php and the changes won't show. I even added a test.php in the same folder to see if I was actually FTP'ing to the right place (because I was getting paranoid). Is there like a cache you can clear or some related crap? Pretty sure now the 'showing the wrong version' is server related.

 

[Tennyo]

There will always be a new version. However I heard someone saying there is going to be a larger change later this year.

That's what I meant.

 

[Fangu]

That's what I meant.

Everything must be taken literally in this thread

And even if there is, it won't matter at this stage.

 

[Flintlock]

However I heard someone saying there is going to be a larger change later this year. (Was it you, Flint?) I'll have to look into the versions later.

What I mentioned was the upcoming version of the default Wordpress theme, which will be called Twenty Twelve. It is, apparently, designed more with CMS in mind, which is largely what we'll be using Wordpress for. Even if we go for a different theme, a lot of them are based on the default, so it might make life easier for you guys who are working on the site. However, it has been delayed to version 3.5, so I wouldn't wait around for it.

 

[Cthulhu]

Yeah, that's kinda was I was wondering about. New 'standard' layouts add fancy stuff like widget support or w/e, and adding them retroactively could become a bit of a pain, depending on how much editing we do in the templates themselves. We should set up version control of sorts (that logs all the changes) so we can re-apply them based on twenty-twelve once it's out, or something like that.

Just because fangu didn't post it, I turned off caching on the test site (APC was still on), all systems go.

 

[Fangu]

Twenty Twelve, pushed back for 3.5, as you said Flint. The official Github page is here: https://github.com/thethemefoundry/twentytwelve

I should go through those files and see if there are any major differences in the code structure from the older default themes. From the few blog posts and articles I've read online, it looks like the 'major changes' with this theme is mainly for the menus (which wouldn't surprise me as the menus always were and still is a little stiff with the earlier versions). But that's my first impression from browsing articles for 5 minutes, so.

I want to start experiencing with some stuff to get people's opinion of the look and feel regarding posts, menus and overall structure. Then write some kind of documentation. And then, if we want to wait for Twenty Twelve: Wait for that one and then implement it according to advice from WP Theme Development gurus. (There are actually proper developers who fiddle around with this )

Those are my suggestions anyway.

 

[Flintlock]

I had a thought - it doesn't really relate to the conversation we're having right now, but hopefully it's alright for me to throw it in, as it could be a feature of the redesigned front page.

I think it would be worth investigating the possibility of increasing the integration between the front page and the forum. When a new article is published on the front page, a thread could be automatically created on the forum, ideally in its own section, with the same content. Discussion of the article would then not take place on the front page in the form of Wordpress comments, as instead every article would contain a link to its twinned forum thread, with an encouragement to discuss it there and sign up if not already a member.

There are a few reasons behind that suggestion.

Firstly, I have these forums in my browser's bookmark bar, meaning I come straight here every day and very rarely look to see what is happening on the front page. I'm sure that goes for a lot of other members, too. A fair amount of content is already mentioned on the forums, but some is not. This article passed me by completely, for example, even though I would have been interested in it. By having all content replicated on the forums, nothing would escape me. That sounds a bit sinister, doesn't it?

Secondly, even when I do see an article on the front page, I very rarely go back to it the next day, two days later, a week later, a fortnight later, and so on, to see if there have been any interesting comments. I am therefore missing out on the whole discussion, while the people who are actually bothering to comment on the articles aren't treated to an engaging discussion about it, as they would expect on the forums. A few people - those who aren't on the forums but still contribute comments to the main site, mainly - might not welcome such a change, but I think it would be a positive change overall and could even lead to a few more people signing up.

Finally, it could make it easier for more people to contribute to the main site. Whenever anyone makes a particularly interesting and/or insightful thread about the compilation (if that's what this site's primary focus is now), a member of staff can quickly ask "would it be alright if we post this on the front page?", and assuming the original poster agrees, we'd very quickly get a new article and a new contributor.

I have seen at least one website where every forum post on those threads is automatically replicated as a comment on the original article, but that seems to be as a result of custom programming, not a readily-available plugin (in fact there seem to be multiple plugins that function in a way similar to what I have described), so it would probably be too much hassle. It could be a project for someone if they really want it, though

Thoughts?

 

[Fangu]

I'll just reply quickly that yes, this topic of integration has been raised, even before my time. The common answer is: It's too much work. vB stinks and whatnot. Nobody seems to bother with doing it anywhere in the Internet, which is a good indication that it's not worth it. However, I think it might be possible to at least print out the forum topics on the articles - and do it like a plugin, to prevent the version fuckery. If anything I'd like to look into it before coming up with the 'ugh' conclusion a lot of people seems to be having

I think Shademp should comment on this, as he's the one with the vision for which sides should have comments and not.

Regarding the other stuff you said, I agree. A lot. The Frontpage needs more lurve.

 

[Flintlock]

I understand the problems. But if there are too many obstacles to using a plugin, it could still be done manually. First, close comments on all new articles in Wordpress's dashboard. Then, whenever a new article is ready, post it on the forum first and add the thread link to the front page article. I don't want to unnecessarily burden our overworked, underappreciated site staff, but it would only take an extra minute per post

Anyway, I'm sure with a discussion about it we can come up with a solution.

 

[Dawnbreaker]

I agree with Flintlock's comments. It really is too easy to miss great articles if you stay almost exclusively on the forums. And I know we could just go to the site but if you're serious about activity you will want to do that extra bit of work to encourage it. It would help the flow of traffic both ways if you integerate the two more. You could even have a particular staff member or two who's job is to make this happen, so there isn't this worry that it won't get done.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I had a thought - it doesn't really relate to the conversation we're having right now, but hopefully it's alright for me to throw it in, as it could be a feature of the redesigned front page.

I think it would be worth investigating the possibility of increasing the integration between the front page and the forum. When a new article is published on the front page, a thread could be automatically created on the forum, ideally in its own section, with the same content. Discussion of the article would then not take place on the front page in the form of Wordpress comments, as instead every article would contain a link to its twinned forum thread, with an encouragement to discuss it there and sign up if not already a member.

There are a few reasons behind that suggestion.

Firstly, I have these forums in my browser's bookmark bar, meaning I come straight here every day and very rarely look to see what is happening on the front page. I'm sure that goes for a lot of other members, too. A fair amount of content is already mentioned on the forums, but some is not. This article passed me by completely, for example, even though I would have been interested in it. By having all content replicated on the forums, nothing would escape me. That sounds a bit sinister, doesn't it?

Secondly, even when I do see an article on the front page, I very rarely go back to it the next day, two days later, a week later, a fortnight later, and so on, to see if there have been any interesting comments. I am therefore missing out on the whole discussion, while the people who are actually bothering to comment on the articles aren't treated to an engaging discussion about it, as they would expect on the forums. A few people - those who aren't on the forums but still contribute comments to the main site, mainly - might not welcome such a change, but I think it would be a positive change overall and could even lead to a few more people signing up.

Finally, it could make it easier for more people to contribute to the main site. Whenever anyone makes a particularly interesting and/or insightful thread about the compilation (if that's what this site's primary focus is now), a member of staff can quickly ask "would it be alright if we post this on the front page?", and assuming the original poster agrees, we'd very quickly get a new article and a new contributor.

I have seen at least one website where every forum post on those threads is automatically replicated as a comment on the original article, but that seems to be as a result of custom programming, not a readily-available plugin (in fact there seem to be multiple plugins that function in a way similar to what I have described), so it would probably be too much hassle. It could be a project for someone if they really want it, though

Thoughts?

I like the way Caves of Narshe does it.

http://www.cavesofnarshe.com/

Sometimes I wonder whether its best just to discard our current WordPress mess entirely and go with something else.

 

[Cthulhu]

Sometimes I wonder whether its best just to discard our current WordPress mess entirely and go with something else.

It would, but the other elses are all shitty too and provide no valid vB integration, . Except vB 4 perhaps, which also comes with a CMS nowadays. But I don't like vB as an awesome programmer, its programming model and user interface / UX feel ancient and outdated.

Caves of Narshe looks like custom software; it might just use their forums DB backend to store comments. That would be one option.

Ideally I'd win the lottery and get rid of my job and write the perfect CMS software, off course, with perfect forums integrated etc.

 

[Flintlock]

Ideally I'd win the lottery and get rid of my job and write the perfect CMS software, off course, with perfect forums integrated etc.

Do you play the lottery?

 

[Fangu]

^ Just want to highlight Yop's last point.

It wouldn't just take "one or two dedicated members" to integrate the two. It would take one (or more) full time jobs, and then you'd need a team of about the same size to maintain the code.

What's good about using a finished CMS like WordPress is that you already have a team (the WordPress team!) to look out for any bugs or new features that'll affect your code. Keeping up with that stuff is pain. You don't just "make something" and then it's done. You have to keep it alive as well. With a place like this (with no paid employees), you'd like to keep the amount of hardcoding to a minimum. (Manual fixes = fun to do and make you feel accomplished, but a huge no-no when it comes to keeping stuff alive and easy for others to maintain. You should always be able to use Automatic Updates. If you edit a file like, say, wp-includes/comment-template.php, you've already lost that ability as it is overwritten in the next upgrade. The way to solve it? Call a different page from your end output (your theme).)



We had a discussion going on in the TLS GFX thread, and some the points that came out were:

1) WordPress is beneficial because it is so widely used: you google something, you find the answer. Plus people here know it. And anyway we need a pre-made CMS. Other types were discussed, but came out as either too small/ expensive/ nobody knows them so support would be pain.
2) A Wiki-solution like WikiMedia (such as Chrono Compendium runs on) were discussed. Unsure as to what the conclusion were. Would be fun to let Shademp test it and see if he likes it for storing material.

Speaking on my own behalf: If we're to get something done, we have to be realistic here. A lot of fan sites runs just fine on WP + forum (+ wiki) and as we don't have a team of web developers with too much free time, I think the WP solution is just fine. I started out with a couple of "what if" exercises in the GFX thread, and IMO it soon became obvious we don't really need to redo the whole thing. Not now, anyway.

But anyway. It's hard imagining things we're only talking about in text. Yop fixed the cache stuff, as he posted earlier, so I can get cracking on the test site.

 

[Shademp]

I will begin by repeating my site vision. Many will have read this stuff in earlier threads, but please stay with me.

Front Page Drafts (from February 12th, so it does not use Pixel's upper headings etc), to visualize the present plans:
- Without Highlight Links
- With Highlight Links

You can observe the following structure:
Left Column is for presentations and analysis of official FFVII media.
Content, About, Community & Highlights is dedicated to site navigation, history, goals, forums, chats + quick-links to some popular TLS features.
Right Column is about fan-made content.

With my vision to have the left column have a more "Guide to All Official FFVII Stuff" feel to it, you can see why I'd want to disable WordPress comments, tags, top links to previous/next article etc because only then would we have a neat presentation without lots of stuff cluttering the page.
I hope then that people would not mind me disabling and storing away the comments to articles such as Guide to FFVII Canon and Complete Timeline of the Compilation etc as these are more "guide" oriented.

I might be wrong, but I think that my insistence on functions to un-check features such as Comments and Previous-Next-Article is partially what Fangu refers to here:

The main focus right now, as I see it, is to fiddle around with the latest release and loosely do a draft of what we want the finished product to be. I imagine this to be quite rough: taking off a few features here, adding something here. When we've found a suitable solution, the real implementation starts based on an agreed release, and hopefully I've learned enough to actually build something that can survive on its own without having to do a serious amount of fixes every time there is a new release. The dream is to be able to use the 'Automatic Update' button. This should be doable.

If TLS is integrated with MediaWiki or something similar, maybe all these issues with me wanting to take away certain core WordPress features (for the sake of a proper, clean presentation) won't be a bother because all the "Guide Content" can be posted under that. The future is uncertain here.


For the right column of the site, dedicated to fan-made material, I can see more features having all their natural WordPress functions intact. There is no special reasoning for this on my part, other than that I can make this compromise because to me it is not as important that the material in the right column feels "clean & neat".

One observation about comments in WordPress though. The most commented WP article, End of the LTD, has 721 comments...but I can't immediately take myself to the very last comment. I have to scroll down and click on "Newer Comments", but to get to the very last comment I'd have to click on Newer Comments a total of 11 times.
A bit pointless of me, but just reinforcing how badly built the WP Comment system is for active discussions and that we, indeed, need to bring the Front Page Content and the Forums closer together. Which brings me to the important question about comments... (see next post).

 

[Shademp]

I think Shademp should comment on this, as he's the one with the vision for which sides should have comments and not.

Again, I imagine the features within each section of the right column to have Comments still active. (So the page/post "Essays" itself would not have comments, but the entries link to within would have WP comments available.) The same with functions like tags, posted under, previous-next article, because they are important for tracking in articles in WP's search function and for increasing site hits.
IN SHORT, the "clean & neat" presentation does not feel as important to me here.


I currently have no clear vision as to how the Front Page and the Forums may be better integrated. It is a good idea to create Forum threads in parallel with Front Page updates (whether or not that thread actually contains a copy of the article or not) and I admit I lazily disregarded the News & Articles forum section when I made the "Max Natural HP & MP" article. I should have made a thread duplicate of that article.

I am slightly confused about the difference between the "News & Articles" section and the "News Reports" section though. Yes, the latter seems to be more about the official moves by Square while the former is more about the content generated by us. But in which category does an article like "Max Natural HP/MP Challenge Completed" fit in? Or to pick another example, I recently found out about Rob64Strife who probably has the World's Largest FFVII Collection and I want to direct people to his videos by posting about it on the front page and the forums. But where do I make the thread? News & Articles or News Reports?


Sadly, I can only speak for how I want to deal with my future articles as far as FrontPage-Forum integration goes. When I publish Unused Text Part 7 and onwards, I would rather not have the article itself appearing on the Newsfeed. I want to make a News Post that says
"Hey, here is the new UT article (link)! If you want to comment on this article or the series as a whole, join the forums and comment in this thread (link)!"
by which point I'll have made a UT-specific thread probably in the News & Articles section.

So really, all that I will pay more attention to in the future is to make threads for comments with each new front page article. Sometimes the FP content may be copied onto the forum thread, sometimes not, depending on how easy the transfer is. It's not difficult to just link to the front page within the forum thread, after all.

Regarding the other stuff you said, I agree. A lot. The Frontpage needs more lurve.

I am here to love it and shape it to what I want, just as I would with a normal partner! lol jk jk that last part

 

[Cthulhu]

Do you play the lottery?

No, watched too much Wargames, i.e. "the only way to win is not to play" .

 

[Cookie Monster]

Why isn't Fangu in Site Staff? I'm going to sort that out now.

 

[Fangu]

Why isn't Fangu in Site Staff? I'm going to sort that out now.

Well I've only signed up for this one thing, so I don't see myself as Staff... more as a Project thingy person, if there is a title like that.

Edit: Ninja'd

 

[Flintlock]

No, watched too much Wargames, i.e. "the only way to win is not to play" .

By that logic: you don't play, therefore you win. You win, therefore you can get rid of your job and write the perfect CMS software, off course, with perfect forums integrated etc.

I look forward to it.

 

[Cthulhu]

Yes well. Technically I could feed on my savings for a few months.

nvm NO U! First I'm going to do awesome html5 frontend stuff in my project at work, good chance I'll finally learn proper CSS there. Or not,