No Sony at E3 2019 = FFVII:R on PS5?

[Claymore]

No one has a PS5 yet, millions of people that want to play the Remake won't come up with $500 or whatever to play it right away. There's no financial gain for SE to refuse to have it on the PS4 after having announced it for the PS4.

That is the very the definition of a system seller - they are designed to make you want to pony up for the latest console in order to play the latest games.

Again, I'm not saying that this is 100% going to happen, but it is looking pretty likely, especially considering all the issue I rose in my post.

 

[Kai Schulen]

Me @ SE



(both emotionally and financially.)

 

[Roger]

That is the very the definition of a system seller - they are designed to make you want to pony up for the latest console in order to play the latest games.

Again, I'm not saying that this is 100% going to happen, but it is looking pretty likely, especially considering all the issue I rose in my post.

Yes, if selling Sony consoles is SE's goal then they should go for the PS5. If as you said earlier, they care about getting our money then PS4 has a huge plus in that people many more people that want to buy the Remake already have a PS4, and this will continue to be a fact for years to come.

I'm with you on that one Claymore. Unlike other Remakes of Final Fantasy they've done, Square's putting in several new things and the gameplay is(Or was at this point) similar to that of Final Fantasy XV's gameplay. Plus with only three years of development that's been put on hold in favor for KH3 and not much of FFVII Remake news since it was announced almost four years ago, I'm betting that, with PS5 becoming announced soon and we're drawing into the end of the PS4 life cycle, the timing will be rushed if they try and put at least part 1 onto PS4 which will make the first Part of the Remake most likely very terrible.

Not saying that Nomura's timing in things is crash hot and, well...with so many things he had to do, but I'm willing to bet that in order to have more time to make sure the first part doesn't end up being faulty and stuff like that like other rushed games end up, it's probably a better idea to cancel the PS4 release and put onto PS5 as one of the very first titles for the Console, but at the same time, not take another decade just to make it like Nomura did with FFXV when it was Versus XIII until he was kicked out of the Director's job and the whole thing had to be redone by Tabata(and look where it got him now).

A console's lifecycle doesn't automatically end when a new console is released. And as Nomura explicietly said in that interview that rekindled this debate, they didn't halt FFVII development in favor of KH3, they halted it's media coverage. They didn't stop work on it.

They might choose to put on the PS5 alone but it is most certainly not a binary choice between rushing it out of the door before the PS5 is released no matter what or throwing out all years of work on the game that was done before the PS5 dev kits were available.

Not saying that Nomura's timing in things is crash hot and, well...with so many things he had to do, but I'm willing to bet that in order to have more time to make sure the first part doesn't end up being faulty and stuff like that like other rushed games end up, it's probably a better idea to cancel the PS4 release and put onto PS5 as one of the very first titles for the Console, but at the same time, not take another decade just to make it like Nomura did with FFXV when it was Versus XIII until he was kicked out of the Director's job and the whole thing had to be redone by Tabata(and look where it got him now).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetsuya_Nomura

Look at how many games have come out that Nomura has been involved with either as a Director or otherwise since announcing Versus in 2006. He's done more then just spin his wheels on Versus's development for a decade, way way way more. Also look at how Remake follows KH3 straight away. We are not in the same situation this time.

Heck, at this point, I don't think even Last of Us Part 2 will be on PS4 and that's not even a Square Enix made game.

What do mean, even? Playstation is made by Sony. Last Of Us Part 2, just like most games made by Naughty Dogs, is published by Sony. They are a first party developer. Square Enix, is not. Nomura can make games for whichever console he wants from one day to the next, see the KH franchise.

Last of Us Part 2 might very well move to PS5, to give it a big launch title, that should not be seen as indicative of SE's situation.

 

[Claymore]

Yes, if selling Sony consoles is SE's goal then they should go for the PS5. If as he said earlier, they care about getting our money then PS4 has a huge plus in that people many more people that want to buy the Remake already have a PS4, and this will continue to be a fact for years to come.

Yes, a previous console generation obviously already has a massive install base. You're taking that one line, out of my entire post, out of context - I'm talking about all the corresponding issues with a PS4-PS5 transition for a single RPG game.

 

[Roger]

Yes, a previous console generation obviously already has a massive install base. You're taking that one line, out of my entire post, out of context - I'm talking about all the corresponding issues with a PS4-PS5 transition for a single RPG game.

I agree that only having Part 1 on the PS4 is not or should not be a viable idea.

" I just can no longer see the VII:Remake on the PS4."

I thought this meant VII:Remake on the PS4 in any form at all, period. Sorry if that's the wrong context to take that in.

 

[KiwiPizza]

Discussing the transfer of saves from PS4 to PS5. They’ve done this before with FFX/X-2 HD. You could upload your save data from the PS3 and then download it onto your PS4 via the in game home menu.

But would this be the same thing? I’d guess so...

Also talking about PS5 exclusivity....

They wouldn’t switch out the huge number of customers for a brand new console especially since they’ve been developing the game for 4 years for the PS4.

They’d very likely release it on PS4 as 7 is hinted at releasing before the PS5 does, then just port it over to the PS5. This would maximize earnings since people talk about Square Enix making money. They also state that releasing the game in parts of to get the full product out as soon as possible because of the Size of the project

The game was also never on hold, that was even clear before Nomuras recent interview this week. The battle system isn’t like XV either, it’s closer to KH or Dissidia on Arcade. Different battle systems.

I’d have to say, as I have previously mentioned. Sony not attending E3 has no bearing on Square Enix release schedule for their games currently in development.

 

[Claymore]

Discussing the transfer of saves from PS4 to PS5. They’ve done this before with FFX/X-2 HD. You could upload your save data from the PS3 and then download it onto your PS4 via the in game home menu.

But would this be the same thing? I’d guess so...

That's the closest analogy anyone has made yet, but even that doesn't come close to describing what they'd have to implement with the Remake. That is still one self contained game. The Remake (as far as we know) isn't.

Also talking about PS5 exclusivity....

They wouldn’t switch out the huge number of customers for a brand new console especially since they’ve been developing the game for 4 years for the PS4.

If Sony, who seemed to have an exclusive with the Remake, want to push this as a PS5 system seller (and why wouldn't they?), then that is what will happen, unless they scrap this exclusivity situation with Sony.

 

[KiwiPizza]

That's the closest analogy anyone has made yet, but even that doesn't come close to describing what they'd have to implement with the Remake. That is still one self contained game. The Remake (as far as we know) isn't

You would transfer your save file and it would transfer character levels, inventory etc

They did it will Dissidia to Dissidia 012 aswell. Each Part acts as a sequel same as Dissidia 012 is the prequel (still came after the release of the original)

Or Square could just be huge dicks and say “nah, start over”

If Sony, who seemed to have an exclusive with the Remake, want to push this as a PS5 system seller (and why wouldn't they?), then that is what will happen, unless they scrap this exclusivity situation with Sony

And to push PS5s they’d have a re-release whilst still earning the money from the PS4 sales.

They’ll have other launch exclusives anyway.

I’m not buying PS5 exclusivity as it defeats the purpose of getting the game into consumers hands as soon as possible and creating unnecessary delays.

7:R is expected from a SE point of view to release next year early 2020 anyway, before the PS5

 

[Claymore]

You would transfer your save file and it would transfer character levels, inventory etc

They did it will Dissidia to Dissidia 012 aswell. Each Part acts as a sequel same as Dissidia 012 is the prequel (still came after the release of the original)

Again, none of that comes close to continuing a game, like the Remake will be, from one generation to the next, or the issues with people starting from Part 2 on the PS5, like I mentioned in my original post.

Or Square could just be huge dicks and say “nah, start over”

As much as I can make fun of SE, I can't see them doing that. The massive amount of backlash to that would be incredible.

From what I'm concluding, it's either going to be on the PS4 or it's going to be on the PS5.

You're right, there is the other option of only Part 1 on the PS4, with a remaster from the PS5 and continuing from there ... but that still doesn't account for the PS4-PS5 issues regarding the game, and you still end up in the exact situation that you seem to dislike - forcing people onto the PS5.

I’m not buying PS5 exclusivity as it defeats the purpose of getting the game into consumers hands as soon as possible and creating unnecessary delays.

I mean, that is a debate about the annoyance of exclusivity deals across the industry itself. It is made to force you to do something, and if you don't like it, tough. You either have to wait it out (if it is a timed exclusive) or buy into a new console.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

In light of the exclusivity agreement with Sony (assuming the deal still stands), it stands to reason that Sony sees the remake as something that will benefit them significantly -- perhaps as a system seller like the original was for the PS1? So I'm not ruling out the possibility of PS5 exclusivity.

While that might seem like SE shooting themselves in the foot, the very notion of system exclusivity implies some incentive has been offered to SE on Sony's part in the first place, regardless of whether we're looking at a PS4 & 5 release or just a release for the PS5. We may never know those details; perhaps Sony ponied up some of the development/marketing cost or -- in the event of a PS5 exclusive -- offered to compensate SE in the event sales don't reach a certain amount during the first year.

Again, we may never learn these details, but there is definitely some incentive at work here for SE and a strategy in play by Sony that leaves room for numerous feasible possibilities.

7:R is expected from a SE point of view to release next year early 2020 anyway, before the PS5

When did they announce this?

 

[KiwiPizza]

Again, none of that comes close to continuing a game, like the Remake will be, from one generation to the next, or the issues with people starting from Part 2 on the PS5, like I mentioned in my original post.



As much as I can make fun of SE, I can't see them doing that. The massive amount of backlash to that would be incredible.

From what I'm concluding, it's either going to be on the PS4 or it's going to be on the PS5.

You're right, there is the other option of only Part 1 on the PS4, with a remaster from the PS5 and continuing from there ... but you still end up in the exact situation that you seem to dislike - forcing people onto the PS5.

I mean, that is a debate about the annoyance of exclusivity deals across the industry itself. It is made to force you to do something, and if you don't like it, tough. You either have to wait it out (if it is a timed exclusive) or buy into a new console.

By the time Part 2 releases PS5 would’ve been on the market a while. Difference between consumers jumping in at a consoles launch compared to a few years later.

Unnecessarily delaying the Remake by almost a year (if the PS5 releases late 2020/early 2021) then that goes against Square Enix financial reports

When did they announce this

They showed a graph detailing their expected profits from the current fiscal/financial year (April 2018 to April 2019) over to the next three years.

These included KH3, (out this fiscal year), 7:R and the Avengers project.

With a big huge in earnings in the next fiscal year (2019/2020) and early 2020 being the end of it 7:R is the only one that would realistically fit here

We can likely safely assume that 7:R will not release until at least 8 months after KH3 as they aren’t quite approaching a normal dev time for a game of this size. 5 years in December 2019.

So between September/October 2019 and April 2020 would put it at just below 5 years to just over 5 years of development. So around 5 years at that point.

This means they haven’t just rushed it out the door or pissed about with it too long

Here’s the link: https://www.dualshockers.com/final-fantasy-vii-remake-kingdom-hearts-iii-three-years/

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

That news is already over a year and a half old, though, and also came just before the announcement that CyberConnect2 was no longer involved with the remake.

While I'm sure that SE factored the in-house development shift into that projection, being that it came at the beginning of that process -- before they could have gotten into the full scope of what needed to be redone, before any unexpected complications, etc. -- I have little confidence in it.

 

[KiwiPizza]

That news is already over a year and a half old, though, and also came just before the announcement that CyberConnect2 was no longer involved with the remake.

While I'm sure that SE factored the in-house development shift into that projection, being that it came at the beginning of that process -- before they could have gotten into the full scope of what needed to be redone, before any unexpected complications, etc. -- I have little confidence in it.

The news came out within the same week and whether the news came out a year and a half ago or yesterday or two years go has no bearing.

It’s like saying since they announced the game as action based 3 years ago that it’s not relevant...

And the whole CC2 announcement was to ensure they stayed on schedule e.g. their 2019/2020 schedule.

When you outsource to a company the company just assists, they don’t do all the work...

Reporting to investors I something you need to get right moreso than updating us the comsumer

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

The news came out within the same week and whether the news came out a year and a half ago or yesterday or two years go has no bearing.

Taking past projects -- and the juncture in the development shift process when the projection was made -- into account, it absolutely could have bearing.

It’s like saying since they announced the game as action based 3 years ago that it’s not relevant...

These things are not in any way analogous.

When you outsource to a company the company just assists, they don’t do all the work...

Each outsourcing agreement is unique to that project. Some have utilized a large degree of outsourcing; most that utilize it do so near the end of development to meet a release deadline.

We're not going to take that latter detail, though, as an indication that CyberConnect2's involvement with the remake means it must have nearly complete anyway when they were brought on.

 

[KiwiPizza]

Taking past projects -- and the juncture in the development shift process when the projection was made -- into account, it absolutely could have bearing

If your hinting at what I think you’re hinting at then these two scenarios are in no way comparable.

Versus XIII had no team on it for the majority of the 6 or so years before it was cancelled. The team was continuously taken off the project.

7:R is not in the same situation at all.

These things are not in any way analogous.

They kind of are as you could say that “CC2 where doing the action combat but because they are no longer assisting, the game has become something else”

Each outsourcing agreement is unique to that project. Some have utilized a large degree of outsourcing; most that utilize it do so near the end of development to meet a release deadline.

We're not going to take that latter detail, though, as an indication that CyberConnect2's involvement with the remake means it must have nearly complete anyway when they were brought on.

Of course we aren’t going to take the latter, as the project was announced at the beginning of development and stated that it was outsourced then too.

After 2.5 years of development (when development was moved in house) the game would’ve been nowhere near ready for release anyway.

CC2s involvement would’ve been minimal due to them taking on many other projects during their time assisting with 7:R and last I heard they didn’t have a large number of staff at the company anyway.

Since I can’t edit my post earlier. Square would’ve made the decision to take Development back in-house before they actually auctioned it and before the news broke. Likely to have known before they announced to their investors their predicted income

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

If your hinting at what I think you’re hinting at then these two scenarios are in no way comparable.

I'm hinting at nothing. I'm referring to how the past several major FF releases -- XII, XIII and XV -- have seen significant delays and/or large swaths of cut content that give us very little reason to take 18-month-old predictions as gospel. And we don't even need to go into the catastrofuck that XIV was initially.

They kind of are as you could say that “CC2 where doing the action combat but because they are no longer assisting, the game has become something else”

No. Don't insult my intelligence or your own here.

We're talking about the timetable of a specified goal changing, not whether the goal itself has changed. An action RPG remake of a turn-based RPG isn't going to turn into a point-and-click adventure game like "Myst."

If I'm trying to get to work and get stuck behind a school bus or keep getting caught at traffic lights, I don't inexplicably drive to Walmart instead.

Wtf, yo.

CC2s involvement would’ve been minimal due to them taking on many other projects during their time assisting with 7:R ...

You claim to know a lot about this project no one else does.

Since I can’t edit my post earlier. Square would’ve made the decision to take Development back in-house before they actually auctioned it and before the news broke. Likely to have known before they announced to their investors their predicted income.

I already said they would have known of the decision and factored it into the prediction they gave investors.................

That said, they're going to offer their investors (i.e. the people funding everything) the same best-case-sounding scenario they gave them on FFXII, XIII and XV despite the multiple delays related to staff, software, team coordination and (mis)management, etc. that ultimately came with those.

And again: this the-sun-is-bright-everything-is-rosy prediction would have been before they could possibly know the full extent of what awaited them, as they weren't doing it yet -- like the school bus or red traffic lights I didn't know would be there until I ran into them in the hypothetical above.

Now, all that said: Could this project -- being that it is not one of the past projects that are already over and done -- play out differently? Could they miraculously even get done ahead of schedule? Sure!

You'll have to forgive me, however, if I don't give more weight to this pipedream than a decade+ of precedent from this same company.

 

[Geostigma]

It can be compared to God Of War. As they would’ve had to do the same processes as 7:R, God Of War had a lot to work off to as it’s the 4th in the series.

Ah yes. Because the game is a sequel to many others obviously the storyboard, reference material, script, character designs etc. All already exist! I completely forgot Frigg was in God of War 2, she was my favorite character!

You are either completely missing the point here or being beyond obtuse.

As I said Development is nearing 4 years, that’s no where near bumbling

That't not how this works. That's not how any of this works. Duke Nukem Forever was in development for over 10 years. Clearly that was the best development cycle of any game ever. It is certainly not the poster child for dev hell.

Also again completely missing my point. My point of reference for why it can be called bumbling isn't due to how long its been in developement. It's the other shit I brought up that you conveniently ignored.

you also have to take into account the original game spans an entire planet and there’s a lot of work to turn it into a PS4 quality game as well as adding to the existing story. Splitting it into multiple parts which themselves are the size of AAA games should also demonstrate the size of the project to you.

I mean... No shit? Is anyone here saying otherwise? Has this not been a talking point for several years now?

Do you have any recent examples of games the size of the Remake that have come out recently in less time than the current length of development?

I also guess Capcom have “bumbled through” RE2 despite that releasing in normal dev time

Do you need anymore straw, man? Also I have 0 examples because we have no clue how big FF7R actually is. I'll take a bet though, I doubt it will be bigger than GoW 4, hell I doubt it will be bigger than WoW: Legion (made in 2 years btw)


Btw should I have to say again that your missing the point and honing in on development time as if it's the only thing that was brought up? Because it's not.

Discussing the transfer of saves from PS4 to PS5. They’ve done this before with FFX/X-2 HD. You could upload your save data from the PS3 and then download it onto your PS4 via the in game home menu.

But would this be the same thing? I’d guess so...

Again missing the point. He's not talking about shit that has been literally capable since the PS2-PS3 transition period. He's talking about the logistics of having a episode series separated via console and the impact it has on people who only own 1 of them.

As an example say an XBX owner makes the jump to PS5, if FF7R:1 releases initially on PS4 only and they want to play the big new FF7R:2 killer app on PS5 they are pretty boned by virtue of the fact that they didn't own a PS4 and have to wait on SE maybe porting later.

Inb4 you bring up ports we all know exist again, lets also bring up the fact that they didn't launch with the console. FFX HD didn't drop for nearly 3 years after launch. Even longer for FF12.

Your just assuming that because ports exist that the will be a FF7R:1 Remaster/Port/W/E will be a launch title. That is a silly assumption given all the dev hell shenanigans we can historically cite for SE even and up to including ports. I mean they fucked the Chrono Trigger PC port. Chrono Trigger.



TBH I get wanting to be imright.com's number 1 sub and all but shit actually read the posts your replying to. In your replies to multiple people in this thread you are completely missing the point and kind of insulting everyone's intelligence with some of these really silly assumptions and implied knowledge of the development cycle of this game no one else apparently has and tbh it's actually pretty lame.

I get your new here and are a big fan of SE but we actually attempt to have conversations in good faith around these parts.

 

[KiwiPizza]

I’m not insulting your intelligence or “missing the point” of any of your posts.

How the hell am I meant to know your level of knowledge of the game or how upto date with news you are...

I'm hinting at nothing. I'm referring to how the past several major FF releases -- XII, XIII and XV -- have seen significant delays and/or large swaths of cut content that give us very little reason to take 18-month-old predictions as gospel. And we don't even need to go into the catastrofuck that XIV was initially.

It’s still incomparable due to those games having brand new engines developed in conjunction with each other as well as the other major issues surrounding those projects non-existent for the Remake.

The Remake is utilising an engine known to work well with games and is meant to be flexible In porting to various devices.

No. Don't insult my intelligence or your own here.

We're talking about the timetable of a specified goal changing, not whether the goal itself has changed. An action RPG remake of a turn-based RPG isn't going to turn into a point-and-click adventure game like "Myst."

If I'm trying to get to work and get stuck behind a school bus or keep getting caught at traffic lights, I don't inexplicably drive to Walmart instead.

Wtf, yo.

Yes and those aims/goals etc were posted around the same time production was moved in-house

You claim to know a lot about this project no one else does.

Way to miss off what I said after that sentence - how CC2 don’t have the man power to do a lot with 7:R coupled with their own other projects.

I don’t claim either to know a lot about the project.

I already said they would have known of the decision and factored it into the prediction they gave investors.................

That said, they're going to offer their investors (i.e. the people funding everything) the same best-case-sounding scenario they gave them on FFXII, XIII and XV despite the multiple delays related to staff, software, team coordination and (mis)management, etc. that ultimately came with those.

Again no such indication of this project going through the same thing.

And again: this the-sun-is-bright-everything-is-rosy prediction would have been before they could possibly know the full extent of what awaited them, as they weren't doing it yet -- like the school bus or red traffic lights I didn't know would be there until I ran into them in the hypothetical above.

In most cases a business would know as they would be able to assess how much on schedule they are after bringing the outsourced parts back in.

Now, all that said: Could this project -- being that it is not one of the past projects that are already over and done -- play out differently? Could they miraculously even get done ahead of schedule? Sure!

Yes, due to their being no indication of previous issues occurring. Though I do not believe that the game will release ahead of schedule.

You'll have to forgive me, however, if I don't give more weight to this pipedream than a decade+ of precedent from this same company.

Because right now is the exact same structure and issues from 10 years ago... of course

Ah yes. Because the game is a sequel to many others obviously the storyboard, reference material, script, character designs etc. All already exist! I completely forgot Frigg was in God of War 2, she was my favorite character!

You are either completely missing the point here or being beyond obtuse.

Well considering there’s a lot of references to that of the story in place, yes there’s a lot already in place. The original post I responded to was that 7:R was bumbling because the PS5 is closing in. I made a comparison to recent games, then you decided to throw in existing material about 7 which is where God of War is relevant. They’d have to work on adding continuation to the existing story.

7:R is expanding the original story we have as exploring further character development for example. As well as there being story changes they need to work on what stays and what changes for the Remake.

That't not how this works. That's not how any of this works. Duke Nukem Forever was in development for over 10 years. Clearly that was the best development cycle of any game ever. It is certainly not the poster child for dev hell.

Also again completely missing my point. My point of reference for why it can be called bumbling isn't due to how long its been in developement. It's the other shit I brought up that you conveniently ignored.

Never said that’s 10 years was acceptable.

The fact PS5 was mentioned as coming soon indicates that the game as “bumbling through” I merely countered that it wasn’t due to how development lengths work.


So you think they should’ve waited for years until PS5 specs were decided on and dev kits handed out?

I guess Naughty Dog, Sucker Punch, CDPR are bumbling through their games due to there games coming out towards the end of the PS4 lifecycle.

Ok all big companies clearly can’t make games properly, please impart your knowledge on game development to show these companies how not to “bumble through development”

I mean... No shit? Is anyone here saying otherwise? Has this not been a talking point for several years now?

As we are all aware, merely pointing out that the project is huge and they aren’t bumbling through...

Do you need anymore straw, man? Also I have 0 examples because we have no clue how big FF7R actually is. I'll take a bet though, I doubt it will be bigger than GoW 4, hell I doubt it will be bigger than WoW: Legion (made in 2 years btw)

Ahh yes, WOW:Legion a game with the luxury of reusing old assets. Definitely comparable from creating a game from the ground up. The nature of MMOS is to have a large works size with multiple hubs. We aren’t just discussing size of the world or whatever, we’re discussing (well your making into an argument by being condescending) the game as a whole. Splitting the game into multiple parts is indication of this.

Btw should I have to say again that your missing the point and honing in on development time as if it's the only thing that was brought up? Because it's not.

Nope, not missing the point.

Again missing the point. He's not talking about shit that has been literally capable since the PS2-PS3 transition period. He's talking about the logistics of having a episode series separated via console and the impact it has on people who only own 1 of them.

I asked a simple question, don’t be a duck to me.

As an example say an XBX owner makes the jump to PS5, if FF7R:1 releases initially on PS4 only and they want to play the big new FF7R:2 killer app on PS5 they are pretty boned by virtue of the fact that they didn't own a PS4 and have to wait on SE maybe porting later.

As was touched upon they could have you start over or like someone else mentioned have a pre-set level.

Inb4 you bring up ports we all know exist again, lets also bring up the fact that they didn't launch with the console. FFX HD didn't drop for nearly 3 years after launch. Even longer for FF12.

Your just assuming that because ports exist that the will be a FF7R:1 Remaster/Port/W/E will be a launch title. That is a silly assumption given all the dev hell shenanigans we can historically cite for SE even and up to including ports. I mean they fucked the Chrono Trigger PC port. Chrono Trigger.

This again has nothing to do with me asking a simple question, and look at Mr.Clairvoyant here predicting (wrongly what I was going to mention)

TBH I get wanting to be imright.com's number 1 sub and all but shit actually read the posts your replying to. In your replies to multiple people in this thread you are completely missing the point and kind of insulting everyone's intelligence with some of these really silly assumptions and implied knowledge of the development cycle of this game no one else apparently has and tbh it's actually pretty lame.

I get your new here and are a big fan of SE but we actually attempt to have conversations in good faith around these parts.

I do actually read the posts and am far from insulting your intelligence. You’re insulting mine I the above quote.

It does sound like you are trying to be Iamright.com though

No silly assumptions either, just basing it off of things we known and evidence shown. I am also not imputing I know more about the games development than others. I am clearly making a comparison to other AAA games and sources if I turnstile first from Square Enix.

Lastly I am not that big a fan of SE; in fact I’m far from their biggest fan, I only play two franchises they are responsible for/have a hand in. I tried initiating conversation and stating why they’re not bumbling through but you decided to be a dick.

LiterallyWho are you to talk to me like shit

 

[Geostigma]

I’m not insulting your intelligence or “missing the point” of any of your posts.

How the hell am I meant to know your level of knowledge of the game or how upto date with news you are...

>I'm not insulting you
>insults you.

Nope, not missing the point.

Ah. So just being obtuse. Got it.

The fact PS5 was mentioned as coming soon indicates that the game as “bumbling through” I merely countered that it wasn’t due to how development lengths work.

So you think they should’ve waited for years until PS5 specs were decided on and dev kits handed out?

I guess Naughty Dog, Sucker Punch, CDPR are bumbling through their games due to there games coming out towards the end of the PS4 lifecycle.

Ok all big companies clearly can’t make games properly, please impart your knowledge on game development to show these companies how not to “bumble through developmen

... In the context of a scenario where an episodic series gets split up by a console generation and the discussion were having based on that. This is the context you keep ignoring and or missing. God of War 4 and other examples of end of cycle games aren't considered bumbling because they aren't releasing episodically and have that same risk.

Also do we have to point out again that console development doesn't happen over night and you are seriously daft if you don't think large publishers aren't kept in the loop in regards to said development? IIRC there were already articles about Sony "starting R&D" for the PS5 before the PS4 was even released.

I asked a simple question, don’t be a duck to me.

Quack.

As was touched upon they could have you start over or like someone else mentioned have a pre-set level.

All options being noted as being pretty shitty. Also still missing the point, were not talking about a solution not existing. The point is the solutions are sloppy and were trying to have a discussion, not a imright.com validation contest, about the implications of those solutions and how things might turn out. It's not a justification point for showing SE is shitty or awesome, its just a conversation that doesn't need to be hand waved away with general "hurdur solutions and ports exists" posts.

This again has nothing to do with me asking a simple question, and look at Mr.Clairvoyant here predicting (wrongly what I was going to mention)

lol what.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I think we all (myself included) need to take a cool down here. Everybody please give it a couple of hours or something before replying further.

 

[KiwiPizza]

>I'm not insulting you
>insults you.

I said I’m not insulting your intelligence not “I’m not insulting you”

Neither am I insulting you. If you take me stating, how am I meant to know how much you know about game development or about 7:R, as an insult then that’s your problem and nothing to do with me.

... In the context of a scenario where an episodic series gets split up by a console generation and the discussion were having based on that. This is the context you keep ignoring and or missing. God of War 4 and other examples of end of cycle games aren't considered bumbling because they aren't releasing episodically and have that same risk.

The initial context was Part 1 being released towards to end of the generation apparently meant bumbling through the game. I pointed out that game development so far isn’t too far off the usual time needed to created a full sized game (which each Part will be)

It’d be difficult to release all 3 or 4 whatever number of parts they plan, across a single console generation... For the complete experience.

Jumping in at Part 2 would need to give a preset setup, there’s not really a way around that. No Part 1 save data found? Ok we will just give you this party setup.

Also do we have to point out again that console development doesn't happen over night and you are seriously daft if you don't think large publishers aren't kept in the loop in regards to said development? IIRC there were already articles about Sony "starting R&D" for the PS5 before the PS4 was even released.

I never said it happens overnight... and of course companies are kept in the loop otherwise how would they have access to dev kits to create games ready for launch.

Quack.

You know what I meant, stop trying to be funny. In fact your still being a dick towards me.

All options being noted as being pretty shitty. Also still missing the point, were not talking about a solution not existing. The point is the solutions are sloppy and were trying to have a discussion, not a imright.com validation contest, about the implications of those solutions and how things might turn out. It's not a justification point for showing SE is shitty or awesome, its just a conversation that doesn't need to be hand waved away with general "hurdur solutions and ports exists" posts.

Whether you think people starting from a pre-set level when starting at Part 2 without having save data for Part 1 is shitty or not, it’s still the only real solution to it. I can’t think of any other, not seen anyone else think of anything better...

Your turning this into an “I’m right contest”.

I stated that the save transfer could occur similar to that of the X/X-2HD situation. It was proposed as a question... since that was a topic of discussion here, continuing save states...

Since there’s talk of PS5 potentially featuring backwards compatibility, playing a PS4 copy of Part 1 would be possible on a PS5 if true about BC.

Nothings being hand waved with a ports exist post either... being able to transfer saves across console generations a la X/X-2 is possible as discussed and since games such as Mass effect supposedly allow you to transfer your decisions across to the next I the series that’s how I’d see the remake treated - a mixture of both.

So you own Part 1 on PS4 but have recently bought a hypothetical Part 2 PS5 bundle for example. You’d upload your PS4 save to SEs cloud and then download it through the Part 2 menu and import data that way.

Since consoles are closer to PCs than ever and there’s chatter of BC between PS4 and PS5 such a solution is possible.

I work with data, it’s my job. Having also done some game development years ago with friends, you could import data from one console generation to the next for a sequel of sorts.

Simply stating it’s possible with one of Squares existing games was me putting it out there since people were discussing the transfer of save files

lol what.

Clairvoyant- someone who can see into the future. However I wasn’t even going to mention ports/remasters, you started bringing up Chrono trigger....

You also mentioned X and XIHD...

I mentioned how I asked a simple question regarding transfer of data, you started going off on a rant and I simply stated it had nothing to do with my original question.

In fact when Twilight Mexican responded to my question, he did it in a civil way by stating it’s the closest analogy, you decided to come out all guns blazing for whatever reason...

In short you took two of my posts and starts raging at me...

I put my opinion into the saves transfer debate.

If this is how you treat people trying to contribute to a discussion and new members then I hope other new members don’t come across you in this manner.

I think we all (myself included) need to take a cool down here. Everybody please give it a couple of hours or something before replying further.

I’m done, if someone wants to have a normal conversation instead of talking down to me - like that guy was doing, I’m up for it... however I will not stand for someone being treating me in the manner above

 

[X-SOLDIER]

How the hell am I meant to know your level of knowledge of the game or how upto date with news you are...

Let's just start out with a general statement here. MOST people who are on a forum dedicated to FFVII, and talking about SE's history of game development know a good bit on what they're talking about when it comes to them making games. Don't make assumptions that everyone else doesn't have at least the same level of knowledge when it comes to gaming news that you do.

Secondly, this all mostly seemed to spawn from you misunderstanding the key issues and motivators when it comes to software development and marketing of a multi-part series across a console generation, so let me line that out, because it's a BIG reason for the reason I made the thread in the first place.

EDIT: Since you posted a reply like 30 seconds before mine submitted. Please take a moment to read what Tres said, and cool off a bit yourself.



Early Next-Gen Development

Devs get a look at new console specs early on with dev kits, so that they can start designing games that'll take advantage of the updates that they'll have on that new generation. If there's nothing more that the console makes possible, there's very little reason to release a new console altogether (PS4 to PS4 Pro being one example of that). That means that they'll find ways to take advantage of that technology in order to achieve things in a game that they'd've had to cut back on before.

When it comes to a title that's currently IN development, that can significantly change what you do with it. Shadow of Mordor on the PS3 vs the PS4 is a fine example of that. That game started development in 2011 and was released in September 2014 – almost a full YEAR after the PS4 was officially released. The PS4 released in Nov 2013 (when Shadow of War was announced), while the PS4 was officially announced in Feb 2013. It's also worth noting that that game's PS3/Xbox versions were outsourced, so that the main company could focus on the Next Gen development.

So, when it comes to FFVII:R and the PS5, you're looking at all of those things, even if the PS4-PS5 development architecture is easier to build simultaneously. They'll have PLENTY of time looking at both consoles.



Roadmapping & Software meeting PR & Marketing

FFVII:R is planned as a multi-part series. Whether that involves save data sharing or not is a very minor consideration in the grand scheme of things. What that DOES mean is that you're looking to get software developers and programmers who can remain consistent through the entirety of the project. While each game is its own piece, they're also more closely interconnected than just regular sequels. That means that you have to look at a plan that goes from your release of FFVII:R Part 1, all the way through the release of the very last piece of DLC for the last FFVII:R Part. You need engineers that can develop for those specs start to finish, and also you'll need to maintain any active environment that require patches or updates. If you're going to commit to doing that on two console generations, you'll need to outsource or significantly expand your resources to achieve that.

Now, looking at FFXV and Luminous we know that SE's cutting back on FFXV's DLC and expansions that require extra work and a longer lifecycle for what is a MASSIVELY successful PS4 title. They're instead focusing in on a new AAA title for the PS5, which lead to Tabata resigning. Those decisions came from higher up in SE, which means that they're directives that they're making as a company at large, and not just ways they're specifically bullying Luminous into ditching content fans with money were interested in. PS4 fans with money invested in a development cycle for PS4-era title got pulled back, which means that they're looking at risk-to-cost ratios beyond just immediate payoff, and looking into long-term investments of what those commitments meant.

Speaking of fans with money, let's look at the other issue that leaves. If you start a multi-part series on one console, and a new console is announced (which you'd know of a few years in advance), you're left with a few options:

1) Stick to the old console.
– For a company known for long development cycles, that's JUST going to be digging your own grave.
– Easy development initially, but you install base is going to shrink with every year.

2) Release on both.
– You risk ending up with the final parts of that series either significantly degraded from their counterparts or impossible to make. Look at the differences that Shadow of Mordor encountered, and make them exponentially bigger every year that passes.
– Wider install base, but you're likely to lose any money you gain from that with the split of doubled development costs.

3) Release on the new console.
– You learn more about the new console early, and get experienced devs that always release games that can be cutting edge for that generation
– If you're big enough draw to be a launch title, there's basically no monetary downside of committing to a new console... except... what if you already announced the game for the previous generation?

At that point, the contrast between The Last Guardian and Final Fantasy XV will clarify things. Building a game that feels like it was made for a generation might be successful in-spite of its gameplay issues, whereas building a game committed to the generation it was designed for will shine in-spite of its long development hell and periods of silence. SE knows how to deal with PR & Marketing when it comes to development hell. They might as well have written the book on it. At this point, the correct direction to take has been spelled out by FFXV in both how they need to commit EARLY to the Next Gen console. It's also why, despite its success, why they're pulling resources off of FFXV now because they're pulling dev efforts off of the PS4.

If the Roadmap for FFVII:R being completely finished is more than 1-2 years AFTER when the PS5 releases – they're better off just fully committing to the PS5. Additionally, if the PS5 is set to release within a year of the very first part of FFVII:R – there's basically no question that they should stop PS4 development and shift gears as quickly as possible. If you're doing that as a company, you're going to see a big effort to stop development on any PS4 projects that don't offer a massive return on investment. So, we're seeing that KH III is still releasing, but FFXV's additional content is being cut back. It's because the more time you have all your devs focusing on building PS5 games, the more experience they'll have and the better off you are for that investment from an internal-talent pool perspective alone.


New Console & Game Releases In General

So, yes. TECHNICALLY Sony releasing the PS5 wouldn't impact SE or any other company's ability to show off gameplay or updates – if they were still making a PS4 game. However, Sony's schedule for releasing the PS5 will absolutely shift how ANY company will shift their project priorities based on where their projected game release window intersects with Sony's PS5 release window.

• Releases close to PS5:
If a game has a single release window is CLOSE to the PS5 release date, releasing something that will be available on PS4 and PS5 is advantageous by being potentially the best of the last generation and the first of the next generation, and you can show off all your development for the PS4 version up until the PS5 release and then show off both versions. This is a delicate balance, because if the versions are too different, you're likely not going to make up the development costs of the old gen with divided sales.

• Releases up to a year or more after PS5:
If you've got a release window (on in SE's case, multiple release windows) that're any significant length of time after the PS5 release date, you're ALWAYS going to be better off scrapping PS4 development outright – meaning that you can't show off PS5-only development work. Your reveals and announcements are locked behind the barrier of when Sony announces the new console.


Circumstantially, everything that SE's doing as a company, and everything that we've been able to tell about Sony's plans for a PS5 matches what SE have and haven't been doing when it comes to FFVII:R and its updates – hence the thread.



tl;dr

The issues aren't that there's a technological difficulty of a game spanning two console generations. While there are difficulties they'd face with marketing, audience, and the unit install base, those things are nothing compared to looking at the cost of software development cycles, and what you'd lose by keeping a bunch of engineers developing on a last gen console, rather than moving everyone on to a current-gen console, especially when it comes to maintaining and building larger teams for other projects, not to mention at an individual level, ensuring that your employees are getting skills that make them more marketable and valuable, which will keep them working for you, rather than going elsewhere. On almost all fronts, this is more of a business conversation than a technical one.




X

 

[Theozilla]

Speaking of fans with money, let's look at the other issue that leaves. If you start a multi-part series on one console, and a new console is announced (which you'd know of a few years in advance), you're left with a few options:

1) Stick to the old console.
– For a company known for long development cycles, that's JUST going to be digging your own grave.
– Easy development initially, but you install base is going to shrink with every year.

2) Release on both.
– You risk ending up with the final parts of that series either significantly degraded from their counterparts or impossible to make. Look at the differences that Shadow of Mordor encountered, and make them exponentially bigger every year that passes.
– Wider install base, but you're likely to lose any money you gain from that with the split of doubled development costs.

3) Release on the new console.
– You learn more about the new console early, and get experienced devs that always release games that can be cutting edge for that generation
– If you're big enough draw to be a launch title, there's basically no monetary downside of committing to a new console... except... what if you already announced the game for the previous generation?

At that point, the contrast between The Last Guardian and Final Fantasy XV will clarify things. Building a game that feels like it was made for a generation might be successful in-spite of its gameplay issues, whereas building a game committed to the generation it was designed for will shine in-spite of its long development hell and periods of silence. SE knows how to deal with PR & Marketing when it comes to development hell. They might as well have written the book on it. At this point, the correct direction to take has been spelled out by FFXV in both how they need to commit EARLY to the Next Gen console. It's also why, despite its success, why they're pulling resources off of FFXV now because they're pulling dev efforts off of the PS4.

If the Roadmap for FFVII:R being completely finished is more than 1-2 years AFTER when the PS5 releases – they're better off just fully committing to the PS5. Additionally, if the PS5 is set to release within a year of the very first part of FFVII:R – there's basically no question that they should stop PS4 development and shift gears as quickly as possible. If you're doing that as a company, you're going to see a big effort to stop development on any PS4 projects that don't offer a massive return on investment. So, we're seeing that KH III is still releasing, but FFXV's additional content is being cut back. It's because the more time you have all your devs focusing on building PS5 games, the more experience they'll have and the better off you are for that investment from an internal-talent pool perspective alone.


X

In regards to the FFVII:Remake specifically, couldn't a mix of sencarios 2 and 3 be done? With the first installment/part released on both PS4/PS5, and the subsequent parts/installments get released only on PS5?

On a slightly separate note, a lot of speculation in this thread assumes the 2020 release window (be it spring or fall) for the PS5, if it ends up actually releasing even later like in 2021, that affects considerations too.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Does anyone think the somewhat unique situation with "Mass Effect" can tell us anything valuable? It was initially an XBox 360 exclusive that finally came to a Sony console just shy of two full years after its own sequel was released for the PS3, and close to a year after even the second sequel.

In this case, we're not only looking at a difference in what console gamers owned but also which companies developed said consoles. Sony loyalists were completely left out on the first installment of this series for five whole years.

It’s still incomparable due to those games having brand new engines developed in conjunction with each other as well as the other major issues surrounding those projects non-existent for the Remake.

Well, hopefully they're non-existent for the remake.

You are definitely right that the remake won't have the new engine issues, though.

Way to miss off what I said after that sentence - how CC2 don’t have the man power to do a lot with 7:R coupled with their own other projects.

I mean, do we know that they didn't have sufficient staff? Or that they weren't prioritizing this project given its potential to significantly benefit their industry recognition and consumer reputation?

In most cases a business would know as they would be able to assess how much on schedule they are after bringing the outsourced parts back in.

Would that not apply to XII, XIII and XV as well? All of those were developed in-house from the start. The assessments for these -- or at least those assessments reported to shareholders -- were off in the case of each project multiple times.

 

[hleV]

I guess the party doesn't hold grudges if it's not personal (Sector 7 ain't nobody's hometown). "Not interested."