No Sony at E3 2019 = FFVII:R on PS5?

KiwiPizza

Pro Adventurer
#51
Well, hopefully they're non-existent for the remake. :monster:

You are definitely right that the remake won't have the new engine issues, though
They were even able to get XV made within 4 years whilst developing Luminous at the same time. Which is actually very pleasing to see

Nomura was also open during Versus XIII how he had no team on his game, rather they helped out with XIII (Crystal Tools issues - wasn’t really suited for games if I recall correctly) and XIV (since XIV 1.0 was panned across the board and just was terrible) then told him it was being scrapped.

There’s also no other games they are developing that are undergoing issues to the extent the FF13 went through, so the likelihood of the Remake team being pulled is even more unlikely too. Square make stupid decisions but I doubt they would pull staff off the Remake to help elsewhere...

I mean, do we know that they didn't have sufficient staff? Or that they weren't prioritizing this project given its potential to significantly benefit their industry recognition and consumer reputation
They’re a company of around 200 staff and they were developing their own games in the period they were contracted to work with the Remake. stretching out at least 5 projects* across 200 people doesn’t seem ideal. *according to this about 5 or 6 during December 2014 and spring/summer 2017 - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CyberConnect2


There’s also CC2s point of view - “Do we commit higher staff to the Remake, our biggest project ever but is only beginning development or do we continue with the projects already in development and earn our profit sooner?”

That’s the dilemma, I would take a guess that CC2 focused more on their other projects, which if true could possibly be one of a few reasons Square Enix took it back in house, outside of any official statement

That’s one theory as to why Square Took it in-house to ensure quality and schedule - IF CC2 focused on their non-Remake products

Others suggested it was the plan all along.

CC2 aren’t the only team outsourced too either.


Would that not apply to XII, XIII and XV as well? All of those were developed in-house from the start. The assessments for these -- or at least those assessments reported to shareholders -- were off in the case of each project multiple times
With XII the original director Matsuno left mid-way through which would impact development as they restructured the team. Can’t find details on any outsourcing so can’t comment on that. Though it’s not unusual for companies to not tell everyone who it’s outsourced too.

With XIII they thought they’d try their hand at developing their own engine which half way through they realized that it was poorly optimized for game development. Tri-Ace did assist with the trilogy of XII but not sure from when. Again couldn’t really find anything else on outsourcing since it’s not often mentioned by companies

XV was outsourced to companies like HexaDrive, who were on board from before the E3 Reveal trailer. Very start of development. XPEC entertainment assisted XV too not sure from what point though.

http://www.siliconera.com/2015/04/0...ing-square-enix-final-fantasy-xv-development/

Out of the 3 mentioned XV was the only one that actually came out close to when they planned.

This again ties into no issues appearing within 7 Remake.

Let's just start out with a general statement here. MOST people who are on a forum dedicated to FFVII, and talking about SE's history of game development know a good bit on what they're talking about when it comes to them making games. Don't make assumptions that everyone else doesn't have at least the same level of knowledge when it comes to gaming news that you do
The comment you quoted was Mis-typed. It was about how am I meant to know how much they know about game development (in general) as well as how upto date they are with 7:R news. Of course majority of people here know about FF7 both original and Remake... and the compilation too!

The website name says it all.

Secondly, this all mostly seemed to spawn from you misunderstanding the key issues and motivators when it comes to software development and marketing of a multi-part series across a console generation, so let me line that out, because it's a BIG reason for the reason I made the thread in the first place
It came from another user going full guns blazing and talking down to me. I merely suggested that they are not bumbling through Part 1 as the original post I replied to seemed to suggest as well as throwing my opinion into the save transfer discussion that were also going on. I am aware of how theses things work, that wasn’t my focus within the conversation though.

I’d like to counteract the other points made about Development hell at Square enix too.

That was only a couple/a few games that they also tried to create an engine for one and has restructuring whilst making poor decisions for a few of them. Then creating another game engine....

Talking about 7:R and using that as a reason for it not likely to come out within a console generation is hardly the same as the above mentioned games. There’s an actual dedicated team using an engine which is also being used not just by another team within the company but across the industry.

As other people have mentioned consoles are still supported after the next one is released and cross generation is of course entirely possible.

It leaves a few options.

* Part 1 on PS4 followed by the rest on PS5

* Release Exclusively for PS5 BUT risk delaying it further than launch. We don’t know what sort of issues may occur in doing so when they repurpose the game for PS5 hardware

* Cross generational for Part 1 if released near to the launch date of PS5. or Port Part 1 over to PS5 if released before PS5. Part 2 onwards on PS5, though this risks the further parts taking longer then intended as new hardware is developed for. This allows them to meet the financial forecast keeping investors happy and getting the game into consumers as soon as possible. All parts would also be confined to one console generation

* All Parts Cross generational
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
#52
In regards to the FFVII:Remake specifically, couldn't a mix of sencarios 2 and 3 be done? With the first installment/part released on both PS4/PS5, and the subsequent parts/installments get released only on PS5?
Thanks for mentioning that. I'd meant to include something about that specifically. The issue with that is largely around marketing, but also a little bit around potential technology:

If you release "Part 1" and a bunch of people not ready to get a PS5 get it there... and then the next part is locked behind the paywall of a new console. If part 2 isn't coming to the PS4, people who bought the PS4 version and then had to get a PS5 to continue will feel like they got the shittier end of a deal. It's the same thing with releasing Part one as a PS4 title and releasing the rest as a PS5 title. It feels like they're forcing you to buy a PS5 to continue an experience you've already committed to, rather than allowing you to get a new console to dive into the game outright.

This is true of any series (Tres' mention of Mass Effect is a good point), but it's even MORE true of the Remake – because it's a Remake. We know the story, and we're explicitly being sold a PART of an experience with the way it's been described. You don't want to put a console-priced barrier in the middle of your story, when people KNOW you could've planned around it – That's gonna be a rough sell any way you slice it.

On top of that, you're looking at development costs for engineers, along with your timeline to release, vs. timeline to the new gen console release, vs. the window it takes to become proficient in programming for that new console. You want employees who are already well-prepared to hit the ground running when that console goes public, so that you can keep making fantastic games. That's why dev kits go out early. The other thing is what happens to all the PS4 developers when you stop making the PS4 version parts? They have to spin up on a skillset amongst peers who've been working on PS5 titles for years, and they're gonna fall behind, despite being on the same team. It'll divide up your workforce in a way where a big chunk of them feel neglected, and like they're being left behind and that's bad for business internally (and why on titles like Shadow of Mordor, they outsource the old-gen console title versions).

All-in-all, the most prudent move from a business perspective is just focus on the series as a cohesive PS5 title.

On a slightly separate note, a lot of speculation in this thread assumes the 2020 release window (be it spring or fall) for the PS5, if it ends up actually releasing even later like in 2021, that affects considerations too.
That's why I added the more general "within X time of PS5 release" windows near the end of my post. With a multi-part project as big as the FFVII Remake, it's the FULL ROADMAP that you have to take into consideration, and not just the first game release.

EDIT:

As other people have mentioned consoles are still supported after the next one is released and cross generation is of course entirely possible.

It leaves a few options.

* Part 1 on PS4 followed by the rest on PS5

* Release Exclusively for PS5 BUT risk delaying it further than launch. We don’t know what sort of issues may occur in doing so when they repurpose the game for PS5 hardware

* Cross generational for Part 1 if released near to the launch date of PS5. or Port Part 1 over to PS5 if released before PS5. Part 2 onwards on PS5, though this risks the further parts taking longer then intended as new hardware is developed for. This allows them to meet the financial forecast keeping investors happy and getting the game into consumers as soon as possible. All parts would also be confined to one console generation

* All Parts Cross generational
I literally addressed the difficulties of all of those points in my previous post.





X:neo:
 
#53
The issues aren't that there's a technological difficulty of a game spanning two console generations. On almost all fronts, this is more of a business conversation than a technical one.
Though I disagree with your analysis sidestepping / downplaying the major technological issues which are unique to RPGs, let alone this singular game that will be spanning multiple installments, and the issues of PS4-PS5 and user jumping on points, really great thoughts framed there.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
#54
It seems like we've reached one solid conclusion: we don't know wtf is going to happen. :monster:

With XII the original director Matsuno left mid-way through which would impact development as they restructured the team.
To be fair, that particular development speaks to the project taking longer than it was supposed to as a consequence rather than a cause. It's one of those "worst-kept secrets in game development" kind of things that Matsuno was booted off the game for it taking longer than shareholders (if not executives) felt it should.

In protest, Hironobu Sakaguchi -- like Matsuno, infamously booted by Square under a nicely worded press release -- actually refused to play it.
 

Kain424

Pro Adventurer
#55
It seems like we've reached one solid conclusion: we don't know wtf is going to happen.
Pretty much. I always lurk in the forums of this site, and with the Remake, that particular sentiment is really the only honest one.

IF the PS5 is backwards compatible, then much of those issues won't be a problem IF a customer has the money and desire to get a PS5 to continue playing. And that's IF the Remake is released in separate releases to begin with.

IF Square-Enix has the development down, they could release the first part in 2019 and the next to parts in 2020 before a PS5 even surfaces. But that's only IF the Remake is being split into three parts.

Everything is speculation. We don't actually even know what the game will look like anymore.
 

OdaDaimyO

Rookie Adventurer
AKA
Mochi Lover
#56
Hello, fellow Gaians!:headbang:

I am HERE TO JOIN!...the most ambitious and levelheaded Community a game like FF7 and/or SE can wish for!;) I must warning you however...this guy says strange things, sometimes distancing himself from common sense too, the reason: His first language isn't English!
The last time I was writing like this were on my school days...in other words, a looong time ago.:O My responses will take much more time than the average, because I am really trying hard to eleborate myself, and writing cohorently (perhaps you noticed already that my grammar is weak).

With amenities out of the way, let me get straight to the point why I registered here in the first place.

I have something to share with you guys.

But maybe this isn't the right thread to post...in summary, it's a source that claims that CC2 is still working on the Remake.

Can someone suggest where I should link this?
 

H3avyM3tal

Lv. 1 Adventurer
#60
Im thinking its pretty safe to assume it'll be cross gen. I think one of the reason its taking this much time is because it'll have content from games across the compilation, and because of the ps5. Most ifnot all of their 1stpartythat are coming later this year or next year will get a ps5 treatment imho.

I cpuldbe wrong though, but showing new ips at the end of this gen makes me wonder when they'llhave time to develop new games for the realease period of the ps5.
 

Vyzzuvazzadth

Yazzavedth Zayann
#61
The State of Play commentary voice over was describing the Remake as the most anticipated PS4 title, so it's safe to assume that they will hold their promise regarding "Play it first on PS4". At least the first installment. Furthermore, the new trailer footage still looks very much like a PS4 game.

This being said, I think all parts will eventually be cross-gen titles.
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
#63
I'm very much expecting it to be a cross-gen title in one way or another. We know that the PS5 will be backwards compatible with the PS4, and I suspect one of the reasons for this is that it's an imperative for the FFVII Remake. There's no way that they could possibly release the first part, and then jump over to a totally different system if that wasn't going to be a factor.

They've also been playing coy with Death Stranding releasing on PS4 & PS5, not to mention all the rumors around Ghost of Tsushima and the fact that they were both big players at E3 last year seemed like one of the reasons that Sony wasn't going to attend this year. I think that they're working to make it feel like the transition over to the PS5 is just going to be a necessary upgrade but give everyone ample time to make a shift over to the system, so that it'll be a softer transition than PS2 to PS3 or the one from PS3 to PS4.

With a lot of the initial conversation about the PS5 covering the SSD and massively reduced loading times, I can't help but think that a big part of that is to help the Remake handle the post-Midgar section of the game being absolutely MASSIVE, while also allowing it to feel seamless in ways that FFXV could mask, but struggled with significantly when it came to loading times and fast travel.




X :neo:
 

Vyzzuvazzadth

Yazzavedth Zayann
#64
With a lot of the initial conversation about the PS5 covering the SSD and massively reduced loading times, I can't help but think that a big part of that is to help the Remake handle the post-Midgar section of the game being absolutely MASSIVE, while also allowing it to feel seamless in ways that FFXV could mask, but struggled with significantly when it came to loading times and fast travel.
Good point. Long loading times have always been the bane of Playstation games, heck, console games in general. At least for AAA ones.
That's why I love how God of War handled it. Everything was seamless, even fast travel, although that started to get annoying once you've exhausted all the dialog happening in that space. I'm curious as to how the Remake will handle transitions and fast travel, if there even is a need for it.
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
#65
This Wired article about the PS5 is really big for how I've been thinking about the Remake, but especially this section:

On the TV, Spidey stands in a small plaza. Cerny presses a button on the controller, initiating a fast-travel interstitial screen. When Spidey reappears in a totally different spot in Manhattan, 15 seconds have elapsed. Then Cerny does the same thing on a next-gen devkit connected to a different TV. (The devkit, an early “low-speed” version, is concealed in a big silver tower, with no visible componentry.) What took 15 seconds now takes less than one: 0.8 seconds, to be exact.

That’s just one consequence of an SSD. There’s also the speed with which a world can be rendered, and thus the speed with which a character can move through that world. Cerny runs a similar two-console demonstration, this time with the camera moving up one of Midtown’s avenues. On the original PS4, the camera moves at about the speed Spidey hits while web-slinging. “No matter how powered up you get as Spider-Man, you can never go any faster than this,” Cerny says, “because that's simply how fast we can get the data off the hard drive.” On the next-gen console, the camera speeds uptown like it’s mounted to a fighter jet. Periodically, Cerny pauses the action to prove that the surrounding environment remains perfectly crisp. (While the next-gen console will support 8K graphics, TVs that deliver it are few and far between, so we’re using a 4K TV.)

What else developers will be able to do is a question Cerny can’t answer yet, because those developers are still figuring it all out—but he sees the SSD as unlocking an entirely new age, one that upends the very tropes that have become the bedrock of gaming. “We're very used to flying logos at the start of the game and graphic-heavy selection screens," he says, "even things like multiplayer lobbies and intentionally detailed loadout processes, because you don't want players just to be waiting."
This technology could very well be the big difference between having an FFX-like world map of various waypoints, vs. having an FFVII-like world map that's a scaled global version of the actual world. You might very well be able to accomplish something like splitting the world into explorable "zones" and having certain areas that you can/can't reach in a "World Map" view. Assuming that each "Zone" had a few different full-map-sized landing/parking points, you're still essentially fast-travelling to the scaled version of that map area. This would let you explore the different open areas of the world as if they were real, and still give you the ability to "zoom out" to a fast-travel-like system that involves actually driving around. Mechanically, you can make it so that anywhere you can see the sky from the overworld (i.e. not in dungeons, or towns) the menu just has a "World Map" option that lets you pop out to the higher view, the same way that you can return to your vehicle and other things in FFXV. Depending on the way that you handle the "zoom out" transition, it could feel REALLY incredible

– and that's why it seems like having Part 2 on the PS5 is gonna be VERY key. There might still be a PS4 version, but just based on the article, those loading times will be absolutely atrocious, whereas the experience on PS5 would be like a dream.




X :neo:
 

Mr. Ite

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Mr. Ite
#67
Honestly, every time they've shown it it has looked bigger and better. Waiting longer just means we'll get that much better of a game. If Part 1 is a highly curated and cinematic remake of the Midgar section (for PS4), and Part 2 has a massive world map for PS5, I'll be quite happy to buy both consoles.
(if I die before it all comes out, I won't care I'll be dead lol)

edit: added (for PS4) for clarity
 
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KiwiPizza

Pro Adventurer
#68
It’s still PS4 (it was never really in doubt), quite obvious from the State of Player trailer which still says PS4 and they did state beforehand they’d not do next-gen stuff for the recent State of Play

As I’ve said before, no Sony at E3 has and never had any bearing on the Remake being at E3
 

Vyzzuvazzadth

Yazzavedth Zayann
#70
This technology could very well be the big difference between having an FFX-like world map of various waypoints, vs. having an FFVII-like world map that's a scaled global version of the actual world. You might very well be able to accomplish something like splitting the world into explorable "zones" and having certain areas that you can/can't reach in a "World Map" view. Assuming that each "Zone" had a few different full-map-sized landing/parking points, you're still essentially fast-travelling to the scaled version of that map area. This would let you explore the different open areas of the world as if they were real, and still give you the ability to "zoom out" to a fast-travel-like system that involves actually driving around. Mechanically, you can make it so that anywhere you can see the sky from the overworld (i.e. not in dungeons, or towns) the menu just has a "World Map" option that lets you pop out to the higher view, the same way that you can return to your vehicle and other things in FFXV. Depending on the way that you handle the "zoom out" transition, it could feel REALLY incredible
That's actually an idea we discussed on GFAQs a while back and I'm very forn of this concept. It allows for free travel across the planet with an airship while still limiting the areas we travel by foot to manageable zones. While this works for the Highwind, I'm still not sure about the Tiny Bronco. The Buggy can probably be handled similar to the off-road Regalia in FFXV.
 
#71
That's actually an idea we discussed on GFAQs a while back and I'm very forn of this concept. It allows for free travel across the planet with an airship while still limiting the areas we travel by foot to manageable zones. While this works for the Highwind, I'm still not sure about the Tiny Bronco. The Buggy can probably be handled similar to the off-road Regalia in FFXV.
The Tiny Bronco I could see working like a limited hybrid of hypothetical The Buggy/Regalia mode and the zoomed out scaled Highwind mode. Have the buggy traveling along the coasts in the 1:1 scale zones then when it goes out to deeper waters it transitions to the scaled/zoomed out mode but it has limited/constrained routes it can travel along before re-entering the traversable zones.
 

Vyzzuvazzadth

Yazzavedth Zayann
#72
The Tiny Bronco I could see working like a limited hybrid of hypothetical The Buggy/Regalia mode and the zoomed out scaled Highwind mode. Have the buggy traveling along the coasts in the 1:1 scale zones then when it goes out to deeper waters it transitions to the scaled/zoomed out mode but it has limited/constrained routes it can travel along before re-entering the traversable zones.
Sounds reasonable and I can imagine something like this, though the Buggy doesn't need to have a zoomed-out mode. Just let it cross shallow river waters in normal mode. Rivers aren't as big and still an unsurmountable obstacle on foot. Although, the passable zones need to be rather large and long to walk though for the Buggy to make sense which have the potential to feel empty. I hope they're going for something between FFXII zones and the continent of Lucis in FFXV. Damn, I'm so excited to see the reveal trailers of the different vehicles!
 
#74
Sounds reasonable and I can imagine something like this, though the Buggy doesn't need to have a zoomed-out mode. Just let it cross shallow river waters in normal mode. Rivers aren't as big and still an unsurmountable obstacle on foot. Although, the passable zones need to be rather large and long to walk though for the Buggy to make sense which have the potential to feel empty. I hope they're going for something between FFXII zones and the continent of Lucis in FFXV. Damn, I'm so excited to see the reveal trailers of the different vehicles!
I agree the Buggy wouldn't need a zoomed out mode, that's why I said could be like the Regalia in FFXV. Only the Tiny Bronco would need the hypothetical hybrid mode.
 

Vyzzuvazzadth

Yazzavedth Zayann
#75
Hmmm, thinking again about the Tiny Bronco, I could see it always being in zoomed-out mode when floating about on shallow waters. When landing on a beach, it either zooms in to the zone adjacent to where it lands or it just cuts to black and the group stands beside the fully-sized Bronco on the beach they landed on, ready to explore the zones connected to said beach. I hope this explanation makes any sense ^^
 
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