Poor Hojo?

[Elysianist]

SPOILERS

I'm not sure how much this has been discussed before, but this is my theory about Hojo (mainly for fun ^^):

I think that Hojo may have had his heart broken. I know it sounds silly but allow me to explain;

From Ryu Kaze's translation of the Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega, page 198 'Vincent's anger' we see confirmation that Lucrecia was Hojo's wife.
We also know that Lucrecia had rejected Vincent, showing stronger feelings toward Hojo and eventually falling pregnant to Hojo.
After having no success on fully grown humans, Hojo decides to use Lucrecia in his experiments by injecting Jenova cells directly into the fetus of his unborn child. This results in Lucrecia becoming altered beyond repair, ultimately leading to her going into seclusion.

In the game script on Disc 2, before the team fights Hojo (when he is powering to Mako Cannon) he says:
"Ha, ha, ha... I offered the woman with my child to Professor Gast's Jenova Project. When Sephiroth was still in the womb, we took the cells of Jenova... HA, HA, HA!!"

By referring to Lucrecia as 'the woman' and not by her name, he is distancing himself from her, as if to attempt to show that he has no feelings for her, or possible to avoid showing any sign of weakness. It may also be possible that he doesn't refer to her by name due to being angry at her disappearance.

Throughout the game we recognise Hojo as being very cold character and willing to do anything in the name of science, we do not know much about what he was like during Jenova Project at Nibelheim while he was with Lucrecia (he could've been a big soppy puppy with her :p)

Is it possible that these events dictated Hojo's personality to becoming the cold character that we are familiar with?

It may also be that Hojo was so proud of his success (Sephiroth) in the Jenova Project that he became uninterested in Lucrecia and therefore focused solely on science and the development of Sephiroth and the Jenova Project.


If anyone can think of any other evidence for this then lemme know, I'm looking forward to seeing what people think, if you agree or think it's absolute rubbish then post away!




EDIT: I personally don't agree with this, I just figured it would be an interesting discussion on the info mentioned above

 

[Ryushikaze]

Minor nitpick, and this has to do with a particular hypothesis of mine, but I don't think we can say Lucrecia showed 'stronger feelings toward' Hojo, technically. But that's just me thinking the crazy lady got with Hojo to punish herself out of a really, really fucked up sense of guilt over 'killing' Vincent's dad and not allowing herself to be happy with Valentine the Younger.

 

[Shademp]

I can't think of a single instant in FFVII, whether in the games or in guides, where Hojo has been shown any redeeming qualities. He is a typical "mad scientist" who completely lacks empathy.

I also doubt that Square will ever give Hojo a backstory that explains his mad streaks, so I can't subscribe to your theory Elysianist.

 

[Elysianist]

@Ryu:
Lucrecia showing stronger feelings toward Hojo is just an assumption I made based on the fact she reject Vincent and later fell pregnant to Hojo.

@Shademp:
Hojo is a stereotypical scientist, cold and bent on doing anything to achieve his goals for science, even if they are unethical, I completely agree; this is the character portrayal we have of him. Which is why I decided to post this theory, it was just an interesting idea I had (for a bit of fun really :p). To challenge the thoughts and perceptions people have about Hojo

Thanks for your posts guys.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Honestly Hojo comes off less "cold/bent on his objectives" as he does "batshit, sadistic monster." Like, near Kefka levels of crazed sadism. I always got the impression that he could have made any number of his experiments less painful and traumatic than they were... but where would the fun be in that? Dirge really cemented it for me, with the way his lines were written and voiced (one of the few decent things that game had going for it), you can tell whenever he gets a chance to mix science and torture together he is lovin' that shit.

Also concerning Shademp's doubt about Hojo ever getting a backstory, I hope you're right. We know all we need to know about the guy, I don't need to know how he got there. But if they ever do throw a backstory at him, please don't let it be sympathetic.

 

[Elysianist]

Hehe I'm a fan of the sadistic scientist character made for Hojo, I just wanted to have some fun and see how people would react to their perceptions about his marriage and early life being flipped :p

Again, it's just a theory based on an idea I had after reading into the points I mentioned in the OP.

 

[S and G]

Honestly Hojo comes off less "cold/bent on his objectives" as he does "batshit, sadistic monster." Like, near Kefka levels of crazed sadism. I always got the impression that he could have made any number of his experiments less painful and traumatic than they were... but where would the fun be in that? Dirge really cemented it for me, with the way his lines were written and voiced (one of the few decent things that game had going for it), you can tell whenever he gets a chance to mix science and torture together he is lovin' that shit.

Also concerning Shademp's doubt about Hojo ever getting a backstory, I hope you're right. We know all we need to know about the guy, I don't need to know how he got there. But if they ever do throw a backstory at him, please don't let it be sympathetic.

I agree that no backstory should be given. No explanation for his madness. A bit like the bad guy from No Country For Old Men. It just makes the whole scenario far more disturbing.

Having said that, I must admit that I have in the past subscribed to the idea that Hojo's persona was based on a tragic love story from the past. Hell hath no fury like a scientist scorned and all that jazz. The guy must at least be pretty chuffed with himself that his seed became Sephiroth. That would explain part of his arrogance.

Just picture him at the top of Shinra HQ, shouting into the night:

"Fuck you world, look at what I made with my happy juice and freaky experiments!!!"

 

[Celes Chere]

I think that Hojo may have had his heart broken.

No. Hojo is fucking crazy.

 

[Elysianist]

@Eru Chitanda: "I know it sounds silly but allow me to explain;" follows right after that statement for a reason XD

 

[Celes Chere]

I stand by what I said.

 

[Splintered]

Man I always felt like Hojo was the real villain of Final Fantasy VII. Not that I had sympathy or overlook Sephiroth, but it's Hojo that has his hands in every tragedy inside and out. It was his messing with Sephiroth and the J-cells that allowed the events of Crisis Core and VII to play out- and probably later ACC, and he was practically the man behind the curtain in DoC, and I think he had a hand to play in BC. He took Lucrecia's son from her even though it was evident it destroyed her. He shot and manipulated Vincent, then allowed him to wallow in despair. He experimented with not just Cloud but everyone in Nieblhiem, including the kids and turns them into broken shells of humans, he tried to forcibly breed (ie rape) Aerith- I don't even know how that works but even if it wasn't breeding he saw that Red XIII looked violent, he killed Ghast to imprison Ilfana, gave power to a man trying to destroy the world. And then he experimented on himself.

This man gives no fucks.

If President Shinra was the calculating greedy part of Shinra, Hojo was unrestrained insanity- the people who take lives and well beings of people and manipulate them. He is science without conscience. I agree with the comparison with him and Kefka, he doesn't want anything but to play with science.

 

[Kai Schulen]

I don't think any amount of heartbreak that Hojo suffered from Lucrecia could really justify what he's done and I don't think I ever remember anything in the compilation that had Hojo reveal that he had any real romantic feelings for Lucrecia.

 

[Elysianist]

I don't think any amount of heartbreak that Hojo suffered from Lucrecia could really justify what he's done and I don't think I ever remember anything in the compilation that had Hojo reveal that he had any real romantic feelings for Lucrecia.

Hey, thanks for posting

In the Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega, page 198, it is confirmed that Hojo and Lucrecia were married, therefore it is a *possibility* that Hojo had romantic feelings, they did work together too. However, there is no other evidence to suggest these feelings.
Again, it's only a theory to get people talking/thinking about what they already know

 

[Blade]

Was playing Crisis Core not long ago...

Hojo likes to run experiments on Zack, even long before his trip in the Mako tank. My encounters with him consisted of him barking orders at Zack to go kill this that or the other monster he created to get combat data.

Love?

I beg to differ.

 

[Kai Schulen]

Hey, thanks for posting

In the Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega, page 198, it is confirmed that Hojo and Lucrecia were married, therefore it is a *possibility* that Hojo had romantic feelings, they did work together too. However, there is no other evidence to suggest these feelings.
Again, it's only a theory to get people talking/thinking about what they already know

Just because two people get married doesn't necessarily mean romantic feelings. Lucrecia could've been all "LET'S GET MARRIED HURR DURR HURR" and Hojo could've been "kay. Let's get back to sciencing now"

...This is now my head canon on how the two got married.

 

[Elysianist]

@Trainer Red,
Lol yes that may have also been the case, I'm basically saying it is a *possibility*
Like I said in the OP, I personally don't think Hojo could ever have been romantic, I figured it was just an interesting topic to bring up to provoke discussion

 

[Ite]

If I'm cast as a villain, the first rule is always "figure out why they're right." Same with writing villains. I love doing it, so this thread is awesome in my books.

Hojo, whoo boy, that's a hard one to come around to. I mean, I have my qualms about Sephiroth (as most people do nowadays) but his actions in Nibelheim are at least basic cause-effect (or rather cause-overreaction). I can even sympathize with Jenova -- she's a giant space monster, but, ya know, giant space monster's gotta eat. Hojo though, it's hard to sympathize with him...

BUT! I refuse to believe that FFVII is so two-dimensional to deprive Hojo of motivation. However, there is so little textual information regarding his past.

For me, based on FFVII only:

We know that he was the assistant of a "great" scientist, Dr. Gast, and that he's been called second-rate his entire career -- even while leading Rufus into a cave made of pure materia in the middle of Shinra's Promised Land. We also know that he lost his wife Lucrecia while experimenting with his unborn child -- experiments that she was a willing participant in. We also know that his wife had a dubious relationship with the Turk assigned to oversee the Jenova Project -- whether or not Hojo became aware of it is unknown, but I think the fact that Hojo shot Vincent makes it at least implicit. We know that some time later, both Gast and Hojo realized that Jenova was not an Ancient, but an alien. We know that Gast betrayed Hojo and absconded with a real Cetra, leaving Hojo with nothing but a 'dead' wife, and an absolute butt-ton of unfinished work and a legacy to live up to.

(I can't believe I said that word 'legacy' in regards to FFVII. Someone shoot me)

I think Hojo killing Gast is really the point-of-no-return for him. It actually reminds me of the moment where Macbeth kills King Duncan (Shakespeare's Macbeth, not Gargoyles Macbeth). Until that point, Hojo has been morally slippery, and the loss of his wife drove him to shoot and experiment on Vincent. But he was still acting within the parameters of basic Shinra atrocities, it's almost bloody cultural. And nobody knew that Jenova was an alien during the Jenova Project, and Lucrecia volunteered to be experimented on, and Gast was leading the project. Hojo was basically an assistant on that project, the fact that he gets all the blame for it is based on his importance in the overall FFVII story, imo.

But to kill your mentor takes an extraordinary lack of control. It rips you away from the man you started out as, and makes you someone else. I find it no coincidence that Hojo's murder of Gast is the latest point in his backstory that we see him, and it's the last time they use the normal-posture Hojo sprite. Physically, it's the last time you see him where he isn't literally warped. After that, he simply continues down the path that he laid out for himself.

I think we're missing a vital scene with Hojo, and that is the moment he and Gast realized that Jenova was an eldritch horror instead of a Cetra. The two men had starkly different reactions -- Hojo chose to continue and Gast did not, even though Gast was the 'superior' scientist. Perhaps Hojo was desperate for recognition, so he continued even though it was no longer safe. Perhaps Gast would have continued, had some babely Cetra not batted her eyelashes at him and made him betray Shinra.

I guess the fact is that we don't know, and Square isn't interested in telling us. But I think that if there are a series of events leading Hojo to evil, they happened between the Jenova Project and Aeris' birth. That's what, eight years? Quite a large window for change.

 

[Ryushikaze]

If I'm cast as a villain, the first rule is always "figure out why they're right." Same with writing villains. I love doing it, so this thread is awesome in my books.

Hojo, whoo boy, that's a hard one to come around to. I mean, I have my qualms about Sephiroth (as most people do nowadays) but his actions in Nibelheim are at least basic cause-effect (or rather cause-overreaction). I can even sympathize with Jenova -- she's a giant space monster, but, ya know, giant space monster's gotta eat. Hojo though, it's hard to sympathize with him...

BUT! I refuse to believe that FFVII is so two-dimensional to deprive Hojo of motivation. However, there is so little textual information regarding his past.

For me, based on FFVII only:

We know that he was the assistant of a "great" scientist, Dr. Gast, and that he's been called second-rate his entire career -- even while leading Rufus into a cave made of pure materia in the middle of Shinra's Promised Land. We also know that he lost his wife Lucrecia while experimenting with his unborn child -- experiments that she was a willing participant in. We also know that his wife had a dubious relationship with the Turk assigned to oversee the Jenova Project -- whether or not Hojo became aware of it is unknown, but I think the fact that Hojo shot Vincent makes it at least implicit. We know that some time later, both Gast and Hojo realized that Jenova was not an Ancient, but an alien. We know that Gast betrayed Hojo and absconded with a real Cetra, leaving Hojo with nothing but a 'dead' wife, and an absolute butt-ton of unfinished work and a legacy to live up to.

(I can't believe I said that word 'legacy' in regards to FFVII. Someone shoot me)

I think Hojo killing Gast is really the point-of-no-return for him. It actually reminds me of the moment where Macbeth kills King Duncan (Shakespeare's Macbeth, not Gargoyles Macbeth). Until that point, Hojo has been morally slippery, and the loss of his wife drove him to shoot and experiment on Vincent. But he was still acting within the parameters of basic Shinra atrocities, it's almost bloody cultural. And nobody knew that Jenova was an alien during the Jenova Project, and Lucrecia volunteered to be experimented on, and Gast was leading the project. Hojo was basically an assistant on that project, the fact that he gets all the blame for it is based on his importance in the overall FFVII story, imo.

But to kill your mentor takes an extraordinary lack of control. It rips you away from the man you started out as, and makes you someone else. I find it no coincidence that Hojo's murder of Gast is the latest point in his backstory that we see him, and it's the last time they use the normal-posture Hojo sprite. Physically, it's the last time you see him where he isn't literally warped. After that, he simply continues down the path that he laid out for himself.

I think we're missing a vital scene with Hojo, and that is the moment he and Gast realized that Jenova was an eldritch horror instead of a Cetra. The two men had starkly different reactions -- Hojo chose to continue and Gast did not, even though Gast was the 'superior' scientist. Perhaps Hojo was desperate for recognition, so he continued even though it was no longer safe. Perhaps Gast would have continued, had some babely Cetra not batted her eyelashes at him and made him betray Shinra.

I guess the fact is that we don't know, and Square isn't interested in telling us. But I think that if there are a series of events leading Hojo to evil, they happened between the Jenova Project and Aeris' birth. That's what, eight years? Quite a large window for change.

Hojo was already a dick during the Jenova project- shooting Vincent with intent to kill just for him voicing his concerns with things.
I do think, though, that you're right about where his descent really began and why it did. I just think he went MEV in a lot less than eight years.

Also, I am blanking entirely on mentions that Luccy and Hojo got married. I understand it's a default assumption, but was it actually mentioned?

 

[Ite]

Ultimania bla bla bla new canon bla bla bla yeah I'm not gonna argue that Lucrecia and Hojo were married. I'm nitpicky about old canon vs. new but not that picky.

And Vincent broke into the mansion after Lucrecia's "fall" (they never really explained the fucking point of that anyway I thought she died or delivered a monster baby or something but nope apparently she just fell down) and it seemed to me like he was trying to shut down the whole operation, while also telling Hojo that his wife has turned into a corpse/zombie/clumsy person. Hojo's letter says "I must get rid of those who stand in my way -- even the one from the Turks." Shooting Vincent seems like a cold and calculated risk removal, and a refusal to stop his work because SCIENCE! Either that, or he knew that Vincent wanted his wife, and Hojo wasn't there when Lucrecia fell -- it's possible that Hojo suspected Vincent of foul play. It's certainly a step down the dark path, but he could have come back.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

You make some very convincing points, Maccers, particularly the one about the killing of Gast being Hojo's tipping point. You know when Macbeth says, "I am in blood stepped in so far that, should I wade no more, to return would be as tedious as go o'er..."? For Hojo to turn back at any point would be to admit the evil of everything he had done up to that point, and, what's worse - since in Shinra it's accepted that the end justifies the means - he would also have to admit that his end was not justifiable. Eventually he reaches a point where all his actions are detertmined by their usefulness to his son/greatest experiment (were the two not synonymous in his eyes?). Whatever helped Sephiroth was justified; helping Sephiroth had become the greatest good, "to which all other causes must give way."

One thing I've never understood is the way fandom paints Aerith's father as a good guy. Running away from the horror he and his department unleashed on the world, leaving his underlings to pick up the pieces, is hardly the action of a hero. He masterminded the Jenova Project; he supervised and clearly endorsed the human embryo experiments on Sephiroth (and Angeal and Genesis, if I am allowed to cite the Compilation as evidence); in fact, Project G and Project S seem to have run concurrently as some kind of competition, typical of the unfriendly rivalry so often found in science departments, which Hojo won. As for Ifalna, her motives are a complete mystery.

 

[Elysianist]

Thanks you for your awesome posts

 

[Obsidian Fire]

I think we're missing a vital scene with Hojo, and that is the moment he and Gast realized that Jenova was an eldritch horror instead of a Cetra. The two men had starkly different reactions -- Hojo chose to continue and Gast did not, even though Gast was the 'superior' scientist.

Where are you getting the idea that Hojo and Gast found out that Jenova wasn't a Cetra at the same time? and that Gast found out about that before he left Shin-Ra. I'm wondering because I always thought that Gast found out Jenova wasn't a Cetra when he talked to Ilfana, that is, after he left Shin-Ra. And that Hojo only found out after he killed Gast. Just trying to figure out what I missed.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Where are you getting the idea that Hojo and Gast found out that Jenova wasn't a Cetra at the same time? and that Gast found out about that before he left Shin-Ra. I'm wondering because I always thought that Gast found out Jenova wasn't a Cetra when he talked to Ilfana, that is, after he left Shin-Ra. And that Hojo only found out after he killed Gast. Just trying to figure out what I missed.

Gast discovering he'd made a horrible mistake re: Jenova is consistently cited as a key reason why Gast leaves ShinRa. Him not understanding what it is exactly until much later doesn't have to come about at necessarily the same time.

Also, Ite, I wasn't trying to get nitpicky, I just could not honestly remember those terms used to describe them ever.

Also, I've thought that Lucrecia 'collapsed' and that was what made Vincent Cause the scene.

Hojo was still already an amoral bastard by the point he shot Vincent, probably because he couldn't stand being second rate and didn't want anything to stop him from proving he was a better scientist than the other researchers.

Hojo is very much a man desperate to prove, especially to himself, that he's better than everyone thinks he is.

 

[Ite]

I assume Gast and Hojo figured out that Jenova wasn't an Ancient by taking one look at Ifalna and going "Oh, you don't have eyes for nipples and horrible blue flesh wings."

 

[jazzflower92]

I am necroing this thread because Hojo has no sympathetic bone in himself.