Powerman 5000 Vs. Heavensward OST

[Jason Tandro]

Well glad nothing is going to come of it but the initial post he made was an insult to the composer, calling it a "rip off" (so more than a "simply observation"). I'm not certain what Spider expected. You can't shout "hey that guy stole from me" and then say later "what it was just an observation of fact."

Interestingly there was an "official response" from SE that links to the SE Forums but now it shows a Page Not Found error. (On Mekkah Dee's OST Video)

 

[vaderSW1]

To call PM5K a "one-hit wonder" is extremely unfair and to use that as a justification for calling this an "attention grab" is completely inaccurate. I started listening to PM5K long before they released "When World's Collide" and became popular for it. I continue to listen to them today. They have never seemed to give a damn about whether or not they were reaching the mainstream. In all honesty, I think "When World's Collide" just happened to hit at the right place at the right time, hence why it was their one mainstream hit.

The two songs are very similar and regardless of their mainstream status as "one-hit wonders" they have the right to pursue copyright infringement litigation if they so choose. They have a solid case for it.

Well glad nothing is going to come of it but the initial post he made was an insult to the composer, calling it a "rip off" (so more than a "simply observation"). I'm not certain what Spider expected. You can't shout "hey that guy stole from me" and then say later "what it was just an observation of fact."

Spider had every right to insult the composer if that was how it was intended. He felt his work was being ripped off. It doesn't matter what he expected to happen. That is his right as the original artist to express his disgust or disappointment in SE's decision to copy his work.

 

[Geostigma]

Worth noting this isn't the first time a song from FF14 took "heavy inspiration" from another song as well lol.

At this point can you really even argue that the similarities on some level were not intentional?
It makes you wonder how many other songs are like this in the game as well. I do recall feeling like Leviathan and Ramuh's songs seemed familiar but I couldn't put my finger on it.

Shiva Phase 2 , while beautiful and themed amazingly with the Raid battle itself , also reminded me a lot of an Anime's intro song as well. I just wonder how many more similarities we can concretely track down if someone went digging.

edit:

Just relistened to Ramuh's theme. I was wrong I don't find it familiar at all lol. Can't say the same for Leviathan and Shiva though.

 

[Jason Tandro]

Moogle's theme being Danny Elfman all over is well known.

Also Ramuh's theme reminds me a lot of the .hack soundtrack.


@Vader: Just because they did other songs does not change the fact that the song they are most well known for is generally speaking the only song most people know (and most I've found know it from Tony Hawk Pro Skater 2). They are obviously other PM5K songs but i guess it's where you draw the line the term.

Secondly it is his right to insult an artist he believes ripped him off but I think it's silly that he then said "what I wasn't going to do anything with this, I was just saying."

 

[vaderSW1]

@Vader: Just because they did other songs does not change the fact that the song they are most well known for is generally speaking the only song most people know (and most I've found know it from Tony Hawk Pro Skater 2). They are obviously other PM5K songs but i guess it's where you draw the line the term.

Secondly it is his right to insult an artist he believes ripped him off but I think it's silly that he then said "what I wasn't going to do anything with this, I was just saying."

My point was not to argue their "mainstream" status. My point is that it is unfair to use that as a justification to call this an "attention grab". I was further illustrating this point by explaining I had been listening to the band long before they had the "mainstream" hit and long afterwards as well and at no time have they ever seemed to care about whether they were "mainstream" or not.

As far as his follow-up comments, it could be that he was advised by PR or someone else that he probably should nip this before it gained too much steam. It seems his original remarks were trending and may have become polarizing for the very same reason you started this thread. "One hit wonder angry about SE composer ripping off their one mainstream hit". That is a completely unfair and inaccurate observation.

I agree that American society, as a whole, has become extremely litigious. There are many lawsuits that I read about that I would consider to be completely ridiculous. This is not one of those things. Spider has a legit concern and a good case if he chooses to go to litigation (though it looks like he won't).

 

[Jason Tandro]

Again Vader we'll have to agree to disagree on this one though I'll admit my bias outright may be clouding my judgment the connection isn't as apparent to me as Good King / Halloween Town.

But there was a semi official response:
http://www.dualshockers.com/2016/02...oser-of-plagiarism-square-enix-denies-claims/

 

[Geostigma]

Moogle's theme being Danny Elfman all over is well known.

So like. You knew about Moogle theme , knew Sefirot phase 2 sounded strikingly similar to WWC and still decided that FF14 was in the clear here?

When I did the King Moogle fight I had sound off, and honestly only ever heard the others because my friends told me the tracks were great (and they absolutely are). If I knew before reading more into this that the Moogle song was also a rip off it would have been brought up waaaay before now.


I just don't see how you can know that another song in this games soundtrack at the very least optimistically is heavily inspired by another song, and still jump down PM5K's throat , blast them as one hit wonders chomping at the bit for attention, and not say something is sketchy here.


I freaking loved FF14 too. I only stopped playing it because life happened but that isn't going to stop me from calling a spade a spade.

There's something very intentional and sketchy going on at the sound team for FF14. If it was just the sefirot phase 2 song fine I could have been convinced that a coincidence was with in the realm of possibility. As you noted everything has been done when it comes to music... but 2 songs?

Nope.

edit:

Re-reading this it comes off as rather aggressive , and that's not the tone I'm going for here so if you pick up on it sorry.

I just wan't to pose the question at what point do we slow down and call a spade a spade? 3 songs? lol

Both of the SE songs are extremely similar to their counter parts and the fact that there is more than 1 instance of this happening imo rules out coincidence.

 

[Jason Tandro]

I have admitted that the opening sounds similar and the guitar riff (4 notes) were functionally identical. This is not the same as saying the song is based on it. Again i agree with the comments that it falls into a general Nu Metal/ Industrial feel with some pointed similarities. This is not the same as directly copying the tone of an established artists style. Elfman is 10,000 times more distinct of an artist than frankly most bands because we hear his whimsy everywhere. GKMM is literally MOGS Theme mixed with a modulated This is Halloween. The chord progression throughout the entire song is undeniable.

Again I'm not trying to piss you off but there's no more ground I have to give. I don't think the two sound similar r
Enough to constitute a rip off and I still think PM5K well probably not I overreacted since they've said they won't go into litigation but definitely should not be surprised that they got backlash.

And two song sounding similar to existing work in a soundtrack consisting of roughly 200 songs mean the entire sound team is corrupt? No.

edit: Lol saw your edit just now. Is cool bra. What's the point of debate if you can't get passionate about it?

 

[Geostigma]

I didn't say they were corrupt lol.

I'm just saying they very intentionally attempted to recreate both songs in some manner. The sound track having 200 songs doesn't matter, it's not like plagiarism scales based on album size lol.

"Oh we got 200 songs? Ok guys that gives us 20 inspirations. Get to it team." lol

I'm just saying just the fact that there was even 1 song was bad enough, but there are now definitely 2. And as I stated earlier how many more songs are we going to find if we actually go digging? As I pointed out Leviathan and Shiva's songs sound really familiar to me I just can't put me finger on it.

I'm not saying they are being malicious here either. Plagiarism isn't always malicious and as noted on page 1 can even be accidental.

The fact that the Moogle song is so clearly This is Halloween says the composer actively and intentionally themed the Moogle fight off of it. It sets precedent for how the soundtrack for the game was composed. If he clearly gave no fucks about that song being so blatant why is it hard to question the similarities in another song?

I mean I don't even like PM5K and really really loved FF14. You'd think I'd be on your side for this one Jason.

But the similarities are to strong here and given the track record...


Again I ask : At what point do we get to call a spade a spade?


edit:


All in all this whole thing is actually a bummer for me.

i really enjoyed the music in this game when I did play it, and while I did find 2 songs to sound rather familiar I didn't actually think about it at all and dismissed it. Now when ever I get to playing it again this whole experience is going to have me second guess the tracks as I hear them.

I'm no music major and outside of note and chorus have no clue what most music terms mean lol. I can't break down a song and explain it. I just know when I hear WWC and Sefirot phase 2 for the most part I hear the same song.

On some level I wish I never opened this thread up and went googling for more info, as these 2 songs have basically undermined the wonderful soundtrack of this game for me.

 

[Jason Tandro]

Read the official response as Soken claims he was unaware of WWC. Furthermore I choose to address things in a case by case basis. Trust me I know even the mighty Uematsu was heavily inspired by classical music but there is a line between homage and rip off. GKMM is pretty hard to defend on that front. I don't think these two are similar enough to constitute ripoff though and I won't say "yes every song is a ripoff because one song,is a ripoff. "

 

[Tetsujin]

On some level I wish I never opened this thread up and went googling for more info, as these 2 songs have basically undermined the wonderful soundtrack of this game for me.

Could be worse. Imagine being a fan of Kenji Yamamoto's Dragon Ball music. Guy pretty much ripped off everything under the sun

 

[Geostigma]

I'm so incredibad at trying to word this , but what I'm trying to say is that the fact that GKMM is so blatant to me it just basically strips away any form of credibility I guess?

Before finding out about it I could have been convinced that WWC and Sefirot phase 2 were just coincidence. Now I can't be.

I'm not saying the entire 200 track list is plagiarism incarnate, but that Sefirot Phase 2 created that seed of doubt and GKMM was the fertilizer.

Soken can try and pull a George Harrison all he wants , and you know what he might be telling the truth for all I know right.


Idk. Part of me feels like if this was any other company or game, if it was EA or Activision we'd be calling it out unanimously.

I really don't know what else to add. I think Sefirot phase 2 is far to similar to WWC , and GKMM being so blatant basically makes me question everything this composer has to say on this or any matter.

 

[Jason Tandro]

I find that logic flawed though and it's too easy a standpoint to abuse. Its no different as saying "This guy robbed a store in the past so yes automatically guilty of robbing this store." Again that's why I go case by case. Yeah I get it seems to make it more likely but that doesn't mean it's worth stripping away all reasonable doubt.

 

[Geostigma]

But this time it's more like

"Hey Soken we have a video recording of a man who looks strikingly similar to you robbing this store , and you have a prior conviction on your record for robbing this store a year ago..."

See what I mean? We have suspicion and track record to work with here. I understand taking things in a case by case basis, but GKMM really really undermines that with how undeniably of a rip off it is.

If PM5K were to take SE to court over this I bet you anything they would bring up GKMM in the proceedings.

And I understand coincidences and homages. I mean everyone lets it slide that Robo's theme is basically Rick Astely's Never gonna give you up (or is it the other way around?). Why? Because Chrono Trigger doesn't turn around and have Lucca's theme sound sorta like "Thriller" lol.

 

[Jason Tandro]

No but could you imagine if it did? Guaranteed somebody on OCRemox will make that mashup at some point.

 

[Octo]

First 25 seconds

????

 

[Flintlock]

I think I've posted about that before somewhere. I actually really like the song!

 

[Octo]

Listening to both songs, they're incredibly similar. But then they both sound like Nine Inch Nails or something. And I don't really care

 

[ForceStealer]

Yeah Gabe, I can't follow your logic of basically being registered on a sex offender list for having plagiarized a song or two. For one thing, you said earlier in the thread that plagiarism is something that can be done completely unbeknownst to the composer. And yet here you judge it like a conscious, moral decision. And for it to taint the entire body of work of a composer?

As Octo implies, you're gonna have to write off Uematsu immediately. There you have Debut, the bridge of Electric de Chocobo is obviously Wipeout, the Unforgiven from FF6 directly plays the Mission Impossible Theme, the well-known Kuja-We Will Rock You connection, and so on.

And of course the amount of songs one writes is relevant. Not in legally determining whether something is plagiarism or not, but your odds only increase. There are only so many ways to organize a song in 4/4 time.

 

[Geostigma]

I'm just asking where does one draw the line? I've said multiple times that I don't think Soken was malicious in the way he approached it. To me there is a world of difference between him and the Will.I.Am's of the world, but none the less there is that seed of doubt there now for me after opening this thread up.
Will.I.Am is a cheap bastard who will sample songs to hell and back, even doing so after asking for permission and being declined. Soken clearly just found the perfect theme for a battle (GKMM is honestly perfectly themed tbh) it just so happens the song has another source of origin.


Why's it ok for people to call out Will.I.Am, Meghan Trainor , Metallica , Vanilla Ice , Psy (tbf courts ruled in his favor, he was still called out though), George Harrison , Led Zepplin, Johny Cash (who made something like 1500 songs in his day, and IIRC only called out 1 time) so on and so forth, but SE is seemingly off limits for doing similar.

Not only that but the band who made the song were called attention whores for it as well.

Like did I miss the memo or something lol, in the year 2016 did musical plagiarism not become a thing because seemingly every combination of music composition has apparently been played by human hands?


edit:

Also not that I ignored Octo's point, but I see that and just think someone at SE is lax about where people get music ideas from where as you guys probably just see it as a coincidence or not a big deal at best.

And again back to my CT point , songs like that probably got hand waved by people because it was probably the only track that did it. I'd imagine it would be a different story if the Midgar Theme also turned out to be Stairway to Heaven or something lol.



Like idk I can't wrap my head around it. Some of you agree that PM5K has a case for plagiarism here and could probably easily win a court case if they took it that far, but in the same breath hand wave it and say it's not plagiarism. To me that's like backflip olympics tier mental gymnastics.

Bear in mind guys no where in the definition of plagiarism does it say anything about intent. It sure as heck makes no mention on whether its malicious or not.


I'm not saying they are the scum of the earth here, or worse Will.I.Am.

I'm just saying PM5k has a point here and they are definitely not attention whores for pointing it out.

 

[ForceStealer]

Like idk I can't wrap my head around it. Some of you agree that PM5K has a case for plagiarism here and could probably easily win a court case if they took it that far, but in the same breath hand wave it and say it's not plagiarism. To me that's like backflip olympics tier mental gymnastics.

No I didn't. I'm saying that it doesn't offend my moral sensibilities. It doesn't affect my overall opinion of the soundtrack, or the game, or whatever.

Bear in mind guys no where in the definition of plagiarism does it say anything about intent. It sure as heck makes no mention on whether its malicious or not.

I acknowledged exactly that. But where I condemn someone does not always line up strictly with what the law says, positively or negatively.

I'm not saying they are the scum of the earth here, or worse Will.I.Am.

I'm just saying PM5k has a point here and they are definitely not attention whores for pointing it out.

But that's not what you're just saying. You just said that plagiarism doesn't have degrees, and then here, you admit it does.
You're saying that all of FFXIV's soundtrack is now suspect and can't enjoy it in it's entirety or something, that's what I specifically said I took issue with.

Intent may not matter for the law, but it matters TO ME. The difference between the likes of Vanilla Ice and Will.I.Am and, say, George Harrison is that the former lacks talent and intentionally attempts to ride on the coattails of another's success. George Harrison wrote an entire catalogue of classic songs, and once accidently had the same chorus as some other song (and much less musically interesting one, at that).

I'm not saying the Chiffons shouldn't have sued him for it, but I am saying that I also have no problem with his solution ("Okay, I'll just buy He's So Fine.") nor do I feel it invalidated him as a composer. You seem to be arguing that it does.

 

[Geostigma]

But that's not what you're just saying. You just said that plagiarism doesn't have degrees, and then here, you admit it does.

I didn't realize my point had flip flopped at some point. I'm currently re-reading my posts to check. This whole time I've just tried to maintain that neither party is malicious here but at the very least plagiarism , in any capacity , should be called out and stood up against every time.

I believe I've said pretty much the same thing in one of the posts yesterday as well.

At the end of the day it's a super grey area here, it's in the same zone as Fair Use practically. We weren't in the studio when they made these tracks and even if we were it would still land in that same grey area.

I understand that it's extremely naive and optimistic for me to suggest being so black and white when considering a grey area such as this. It's rather silly but that's just the way I think it should be dealt with. I think any artist who feels wronged and can make a case of it has every right to do so.


I don't know. Maybe I don't eve know what I want out of this thread and situation conclusion wise or even what I'm trying to convey. I didn't realize I flip flopped on my point and am sorry for that.

I just idk. I won't go as far as saying this invalidates Soken's work. I do still find the work beautiful and had Shiva theme on repeat for awhile this morning. I just feel as though I will second guess the tracks when I do get to playing FF14 again. Though that could be because I found out about GKMM at the same time as this less severe case and it may have just compounded the effect for me I guess?

 

[Channy]

I hate to throw Nobuo under the bus, but

---

---

 

[Nanaki Skywalker]

I hate posting the same thing in two active threads, but what the hell...

First riff...

Chorus riff ("For whom the bell tolls, time marches on")

 

[Ghost X]

@Channy: I think they're too different.

@TT: I think the similarities are too basic, compared to the complexity of similarities of the songs this thread is about.