SPOILERS Predictions for Part 2? (*Open Spoilers for Part 1*)

[LNK]

Are you guys for real?
The translation is clealy talking about the categories of Sephiroths, not literal Sephiroths. ?‍

To my knowledge, nobody here thought the 4 categories actually represented 4 Sephiroths.

 

[TurquoiseHammer]

If Toriyama is to believed, all four (five, technically) categories are being influenced by the same "transcendent will and consciousness." The fact that the clones are more or less behaving the same way they did in the OG merely indicates to me that Futuroth is okay with letting the Reunion process proceed as usual. Maybe their souped-up transfiguration powers are the bonus they get from his increased influence.

In any case, check out this wild quote from Satoru Koyama's Ultimania Q&A:
Q: Were there any things that changed significantly after the start of development?
A: The summons underwent quite a bit of alteration. In the beginning, we had it so they would use their special attacks right after they appeared, and you had to continue pressing buttons, gradually depleting the summoner’s ATB gauge, to keep the summons moving. Also, Refocus [lit. “Vision”] was initially a special Limit Break with relevance to the story that would freeze time for everyone and everything but the user, who could continue to act freely. The Refocus materia’s inclusion in Aerith’s initial loadout is a remnant from that period of development.

Sure makes me think of the scene where Sephiroth stops time. And is that a purple materia I see on Sephiroth's belt?...

 

[Makoeyes987]

I forgot about Toriyama's quote from the Ultimania Plus that also drills home the point of there being multiple Sephiroths, including a real one.

The Sephiroths who appear at various points throughout the game share a number of guises, whether they be hallucinations only Cloud sees; apparitions conjured up by Sephiroth; figures fashioned by the mimicry of black-robed men; or Sephiroth himself. Because all of these beings are under the direction of Sephiroth’s transcendent will and consciousness, they come to speak with the same purpose and play with Cloud’s emotions in the same toying manner.... Sephiroth has already physically died once before, yet he considers this incident when Cloud took his life to be one of their defining memories together.

So again. It's not assumption or speculation to state what's plainly apparent before us. The actual Sephiroth appeared before us in Chapter 18. While he was still actually in the Northern Crater, regenerating from his "death" and utilizing his Copies to enact his will. No amount of begging the question is going to nullify the truth that's apparent.

There are 2 "real" Sephiroths. Whether you want to call one from the future is your choice, but it makes sense given he was clearly shown to be residing/waiting in the future.

"Among these, the true identity of the Sephiroth who appears at the end of this title (i.e. the fourth category) cannot be guessed even by those who have knowledge of the original game."

If the Ultimania is pointing out the distinction that the "real" Sephiroth is separate and wholly new from the Sephiroth we know from the OG, how is that even close to ambiguous? He's "real" and apparently in two places at once.

 

[LNK]

I guess I can see what @OWA-2 is saying. Technically we don't know for sure this is a Sephiroth from the future. Maybe he has just seen it by traveling in the Lifestream.

Either way, he still knows the future

 

[Makoeyes987]

That doesn't make sense because there's already a Sephiroth in the Lifestream/Northern Crater. The one we know who corresponds to the original game's actual true Sephiroth. The fact is, there are two clearly defined "real" Sephiroths in the Remake.

And the identity of one of these Sephiroths is not understood or based on material from the OG. So any comparison there is erroneous.

 

[Roundhouse]

Is it possible that this FutureRoth is a GoodRoth or MorallyAmbiguousRoth?

 

[Sephiroth Crescent]

Is it possible that this FutureRoth is a GoodRoth or MorallyAmbiguousRoth?

I think you are going too far with prefixes now.

 

[Roundhouse]

In a universe of beagle and terrier and poodle and pug timelines, there is no such thing as too far!

 

[LNK]

That doesn't make sense because there's already a Sephiroth in the Lifestream/Northern Crater. The one we know who corresponds to the original game's actual true Sephiroth. The fact is, there are two clearly defined "real" Sephiroths in the Remake.

And the identity of one of these Sephiroths is not understood or based on material from the OG. So any comparison there is erroneous.

Sorry, I'm not saying this ch 18 Sephiroth is the same as the Northern Crater one. I agree that this is a separate one. I'm just agreeing that we don't know for sure that this Sephiroth is specifically from the future. What we do know, is he has seen the future.

 

[TurquoiseHammer]

For me the big question is how Futuroth is manifesting. Let's say he traveled back in time only "spiritually" via the Lifestream. There's still the question of how he's physically appearing at the end of the Midgar Expressway. He isn't a black-cloaked man, according to the Ultimania, so how else could people other than Cloud be seeing him? Clearly he's gained some ability he didn't have during AC. Whether or not Northern Caveroth and Futuroth share the same consciousness (Toriyama seems to be implying the former has been subsumed by the latter), they are two separate physical manifestations of Sephiroth.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Right, but it's just the fact he's present in the future (the Edge of Creation) that connects him and leads one to believe he's from that future. He's clearly there and witnessing it. I'm not sure what other explanation it could be, but he's seemingly something outside the normal flow/existence of the OG's story.

For me the big question is how Futuroth is manifesting. Let's say he traveled back in time only "spiritually" via the Lifestream. There's still the question of how he's physically appearing at the end of the Midgar Expressway. He isn't a black-cloaked man, according to the Ultimania, so how else could people other than Cloud be seeing him? Clearly he's gained some ability he didn't have during AC. Whether or not Northern Caveroth and Futuroth share the same consciousness (Toriyama seems to be implying the former has been subsumed by the latter), they are two separate physical manifestations of Sephiroth.

It's simple. He's physically there.

I don't think any sort of extraneous explanations via Lifestream or whatever are necessary. Occam's Razor. Sephiroth is there, hence how he's being seen and defined as "genuine."

 

[LNK]

Right, but it's just the fact he's present in the future (the Edge of Creation) that connects him and leads one to believe he's from that future. He's clearly there and witnessing it. I'm not sure what other explanation it could be, but he's seemingly something outside the normal flow/existence of the OG's story.

Yes, he is there in the future, but how do we know he didn't travel there?

 

[TurquoiseHammer]

Right, but it's just the fact he's present in the future (the Edge of Creation) that connects him and leads one to believe he's from that future. He's clearly there and witnessing it. I'm not sure what other explanation it could be, but he's seemingly something outside the normal flow/existence of the OG's story.



It's simple. He's physically there.

I don't think any sort of extraneous explanations via Lifestream or whatever are necessary. Occam's Razor. Sephiroth is there, hence how he's being seen and defined as "genuine."

But how is here there without a body (at the Northern Cave) or a surrogate like the black cloaks or remnants? I'm not saying it's impossible. I agree he is physically present. Just wondering what development made that possible.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I suppose you're right, but at the same time, that raises another question.

When did he come from, if it's the past? It just seems unlikely Sephiroth is from the past given his awareness and familiarity with Cloud, the Planet and of course his ambition.

Granted he uses "ore" as his personal pronoun, but that easily could be intentional to be familiar and draw Cloud in. He only used it that one time with Cloud.

So yeah. We don't know 100% he's from the "future" but we know he's not from FFVII's present, we know he's a genuine Sephiroth, and that makes him a literal second Sephy. His connection with the future and being essentially found there, and aware of it makes it logical to identify him as being attached to it.

But how is here there without a body (at the Northern Cave) or a surrogate like the black cloaks or remnants? I'm not saying it's impossible. I agree he is physically present. Just wondering what development made that possible.

The "how" is not that relevant or important at this point in the story, at least compared to the question of "where/when." There are a myriad of possibilities and explanations that could explain how Sephiroth's got a living body again. Regardless, the fact is we know now that a real, genuine Sephiroth who should not be there in FFVII Part 1 showed up and fought with the party. A Sephiroth who is simultaneously real, "wrong", and hoping to break free from destiny to avert the end of the Planet in it's future.

That's what the most important point is in regards to this mystery.

 

[LNK]

When did he come from, if it's the past? It just seems unlikely Sephiroth is from the past given his awareness and familiarity with Cloud, the Planet and of course his ambition.

This is what I was getting at with my questioning.

I honestly couldn't answer your question though. I was just saying it's possible that Seph could be from a different time and traveled to the future. Whether he's from the future or not, doesn't actually matter to me. All that matters, is he does know the future

 

[LNK]

Separate topic, but what do you and others think about the kids in sector 5 (and the e3 reveal) having Busterswords? Is that more timey wimey stuff?

 

[Makoeyes987]

I think that's just kids emulating and looking up to Cloud. Because they do that after you make a positive name for Cloud in Sector 5 by doing all the side quests and helping the Wish House kids when they need it.

 

[Thenir]

I personally interpreted it as a little reference to CC. Sure, the kids could be just trying to look like Cloud but, unless it's a case of video game illogic, it takes more than the time Cloud spent with them to create wooden swords. Moreover they all have a perfect copy of the Buster Sword regardless of what sword Cloud is carrying.
Zack used to spend time in Sector 5 and maybe the kids started emulating him back then creating toy-swords that remained at the Leaf House.

 

[Eerie]

Yep it's a hidden reference to Zack, definitely. Just like some lines from the NPCs refer to him.

 

[Odysseus]

Just like some lines from the NPCs refer to him.

What lines are those?

 

[Eerie]

I know there's one NPC who's like "I thought you'd be taller" or something like that, which is a clear reference that Aerith has told everyone about Zack. I think there are others, maybe @eleamaya will remember more, it's just the one I can cite without having to look back at the chapter.

 

[LegendarySaiyan]

Imagine FFVII REMAKE 2 looking this good!

Video may contain Horizon Forbidden West SPOILERS

 

[eleamaya]

I know there's one NPC who's like "I thought you'd be taller" or something like that, which is a clear reference that Aerith has told everyone about Zack. I think there are others, maybe @eleamaya will remember more, it's just the one I can cite without having to look back at the chapter.

I dont play Remake in all honesty (I dont play console anymore---I know it's weird in western but here Asia really love mobile game so I'll crave for EC), so I may also miss scene since I just watch the full chapter once in youtube. But CH 8-9 really reminiscence of what Zack & Aerith did in CC. I mean these couple are just:
- hey, I'll show you the way out
- how about one date
- meet slum monsters
- Aerith tell them her anxiety about seeing the sky / going outside
- help a kid
- zack help with flower wagon / cloud help with flower basket
DMW even show that Zack & Aerith severely go outside (another date when Zack try to jump on sand pool & they meet the boy again), not just spending time in church. So, there's no way the slum residents don't recognize him. But they may forget since it was 5 years ago the last time they saw him. I guess the NPC in slum 5 just serve a hint about Zack just like the infantrymen recognize the sword. About the kid, it may be just indirect reference that Zack also helped kid despite different kid and these kids make buster board because of Cloud.

 

[Fiz]

In any case, check out this wild quote from Satoru Koyama's Ultimania Q&A:
Also, Refocus [lit. “Vision”] was initially a special Limit Break with relevance to the story that would freeze time for everyone and everything but the user, who could continue to act freely. The Refocus materia’s inclusion in Aerith’s initial loadout is a remnant from that period of development.

Sure makes me think of the scene where Sephiroth stops time. And is that a purple materia I see on Sephiroth's belt?...

I'm not going to run away with this, but thats curious.

 

[Roundhouse]