- AKA
- Mog
He didn't talk enough for me. If I have to actively listen for lines that AREN'T from somewhere else when someone talks, then that's not an interesting villain to me.
Project S and Genesis
- Thread starter Aya
- Start date
He didn't talk enough for me. If I have to actively listen for lines that AREN'T from somewhere else when someone talks, then that's not an interesting villain to me.
- AKA
- MJ Gallagher
Perhaps there was no way for him to break inside - great strength or not. Not even Sephiroth broke inside, he just seemed to unlock it. I assume he found a code or something at the library.
Anyway, perhaps there was a difference between infusing himself with Jenova's cells and Sephiroth's cells. Sephiroth is said to be a genetic match of Jenova, but surely something must be different. SOLDIERs are injected directly with Jenova cells which causes their genetic structure to mutate. Perhaps such a mutation would be detrimental to Genesis' cause as the mutation would react poorly with his degradation. Sephiroth, on the other hand was living proof that a perfect genetic balance could be found, which may explain why Genesis went after his cells instead.
It may also quite simply have something to do with Genesis' obsession with Sephiroth, as not once did he even hint at referring to Jenova as Mother, yet seemed to know the truth of Jenova's past.
On a side note, in Modeoheim when Hollander tells Genesis that he doesn't know where the Jenova cells are kept, and Hojo probably wouldn't know either, am I right in thinking this was a blatant lie? It was the science dept that infused SOLDIERs with Jenova so surely Hojo knew where she was kept. For god's sake, Hojo's makonoids were in the same chamber. However, how does Genesis come to discover Jenova at Nibelheim? His armies were looking all over the world for her, and suddenly he just gets it right. I doubt Hollander knew, so my guess is that Lazard was in on the secret of her whereabouts.
Is there any definitive explanation for that?
- AKA
- Mog
Neo Bahamut
Omnipotent Jackass
- AKA
- Lithp, Unholy Quadralateral
One of the Shinra troops in Nibelheim says that Sephiroth had the key. There could be a lot of reasons why he didn't open it immediately. Zack's there, he doesn't know much about what's beyond the door, he had a mission to complete, etc.
Also, I'd like to note that when Sephiroth says "what do I have to be sad about," he's lying. Sephiroth is the kind of guy who converts sadness to anger. Seriously, standing there, staring up at the sky, telling anyone who talks to him to leave him alone ISN'T being clearly depressed?*
It is noteworthy that they had reasons for being so whiney. The point I'm making is that they weren't really good enough to exclude them from emo status. Seriously, for all the more extreme their actions are, their pasts weren't THAT bad.
What I'm basically saying is that they handle their problems badly. It's no big deal, it's just...there.
*=In the Shinra Mansion library.
Edit: Forgot to mention, Hollander wasn't lying when he said Hojo didn't know where the cells were. Hojo was. They were so secret that Shinra maintained the illusion that no one knew where they were. It's kind of like how the Turks act like they don't know Rufus has Jenova's "head" in Advent Children, yet they clearly do.
Also, I'd like to note that when Sephiroth says "what do I have to be sad about," he's lying. Sephiroth is the kind of guy who converts sadness to anger. Seriously, standing there, staring up at the sky, telling anyone who talks to him to leave him alone ISN'T being clearly depressed?*
It is noteworthy that they had reasons for being so whiney. The point I'm making is that they weren't really good enough to exclude them from emo status. Seriously, for all the more extreme their actions are, their pasts weren't THAT bad.
What I'm basically saying is that they handle their problems badly. It's no big deal, it's just...there.
*=In the Shinra Mansion library.
Edit: Forgot to mention, Hollander wasn't lying when he said Hojo didn't know where the cells were. Hojo was. They were so secret that Shinra maintained the illusion that no one knew where they were. It's kind of like how the Turks act like they don't know Rufus has Jenova's "head" in Advent Children, yet they clearly do.
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Neo Bahamut said:
No. He's not. You might be able to make a case for him being depressed in the Shinra Mansion Library, after all, that's why Cloud says "What about my sadness?! Its the same as your sadness!" But by that point Sephiroth is no longer sad, he's not really angry either, he's ecstatic. Again, as he says, "I've been chosen to become the ruler of this Planet."
Now, just to point out, its true that this conversation between Cloud and Sephiroth never actually took place, it was only in Cloud's telling of the Nibelheim incident, but I still think its consistent. Sephiroth was not depressed for very long.
Neo Bahamut said:
All right, shall we go over Cloud's past one more time?
1. Denied entrance into the SOLDIER program for the very reason he wanted to join it - he's too weak. True, not a huge deal, but then...
2. Returns to his hometown, ashamed to show his face. Soon after, his hero murders nearly everyone in the town in addition to razing it. Not the least of those citizens was his mother whom he grew up with alone. He also has good reason to believe his his childhood crush is also killed at the hands of his hero. Had he been as strong as this hero as he had set out to do, he may have been able to prevent both of these.
3. He's taken in at the brink of death and subjected to experiments for four years, leaving his mind shattered.
4. His best friend escapes and frees Cloud as well. After 9 months on the run, that friends dies protecting him. This friend likely would have easily made it were it not for having to watch over Cloud.
5. A girl to whom he told he would be a bodyguard is murdered right before his eyes. Again, something that might have been prevented had Cloud not bugged out at the Temple of the Ancients.
6. Despite moving on and defeating his former hero, Cloud's courier service involves several trips to Aeris' grave for Elmyra. Serving as a nagging reminder of his most pronounced failure as protector.
7. He is then inflicted with a painful disease that is spreading the planet with no foreseeable cure.
Not that bad, huh?
Neo Bahamut
Omnipotent Jackass
- AKA
- Lithp, Unholy Quadralateral
You're taking Sephiroth's words at face value. That's not good, when you're trying to discern a person's emotional state.
And alright, we'll give Cloud the benefit of the doubt. Not that I think "for no reason" is really a part of the colliquialism.
Vincent & Sephiroth, however, are another story. Sure, Sephiroth is a science experiment. Sure, he was being used by Shinra. But the logical response is to go bat fuck insane & try to kill the planet? Then, you have Vincent. So, the chick he liked ended up killed. Sure, he's been changed a bit by the experiments. I can accept going into a freaked out state of isolation, but THIRTY YEARS? That's a tad extreme....
And alright, we'll give Cloud the benefit of the doubt. Not that I think "for no reason" is really a part of the colliquialism.
Vincent & Sephiroth, however, are another story. Sure, Sephiroth is a science experiment. Sure, he was being used by Shinra. But the logical response is to go bat fuck insane & try to kill the planet? Then, you have Vincent. So, the chick he liked ended up killed. Sure, he's been changed a bit by the experiments. I can accept going into a freaked out state of isolation, but THIRTY YEARS? That's a tad extreme....
- AKA
- Leon S. Kennedy,Terry Bogard, The Dark Knight, Dacon, John Marston, Teal'c
What the fuck.
That's not why he did that at all. He was incapable of saving her from her sadness and the Jenova project. He blames himself for the whole Sephiroth fiasco. The man fucked up massively and failed the one woman he ever loved.
Couple that with the fact that he's a mutant freak with no connection to the world anymore, that possibly poses a threat to the world, and he's got reason enough to seclude himself.
He's not "emo" the man is stoic and brooding if anything. That doesn't make him "emo"
Neo Bahamut
Omnipotent Jackass
- AKA
- Lithp, Unholy Quadralateral
He can control his transformations, & I was deliberately simplifying. You're just splitting hairs.
Seriously, I'm a fan of the characters, & all, but even I can take &/or dish out some criticism towards them.
Seriously, I'm a fan of the characters, & all, but even I can take &/or dish out some criticism towards them.
- AKA
- Mog
Granted, I agree that Vincent could have seriously spent better use of his time than locking himself up for 30 years (which didn't do any real good to anyone). However, I wouldn't call him emo, either. He has a fair bit of self loathing and could use a lesson in forgiveness of the self, but he's not whiny.
Neo Bahamut
Omnipotent Jackass
- AKA
- Lithp, Unholy Quadralateral
I think this topic is pretty much just splitting hairs, at this point.
I am confused (more so than normal).
I'm pretty sure that during their little chat in the Nibelheim reactor, Sephiroth tells Zack something like "You ordinary SOLDIERs are infused with mako" to give them their extra powers. Nothing is said about Jenova cells, obviously, since neither Zack nor Sephiroth would be in the know. But where is it specifically stated that SOLDIERs are injected with Jenova cells? I'm not qestioning the truth of the statement, I just want the reference, because I missed it. I always assumed that the only ones with Jenova cells were Sephiroth, Genesis, and Angeal (and later, Cloud).
Crisis Core also disposed of several other assumptions I had, namely
1. That Zack and Cloud were best friends. Seems like Kunsel is Zack's best friend. Cloud's someone he quite likes, who he ends up taking care of through force of circumstances.
2. That Zack and Aerith had a great love. Zack's constantly chatting up other girls, and seems more interested in Cissnei by the end.
I'm pretty sure that during their little chat in the Nibelheim reactor, Sephiroth tells Zack something like "You ordinary SOLDIERs are infused with mako" to give them their extra powers. Nothing is said about Jenova cells, obviously, since neither Zack nor Sephiroth would be in the know. But where is it specifically stated that SOLDIERs are injected with Jenova cells? I'm not qestioning the truth of the statement, I just want the reference, because I missed it. I always assumed that the only ones with Jenova cells were Sephiroth, Genesis, and Angeal (and later, Cloud).
Crisis Core also disposed of several other assumptions I had, namely
1. That Zack and Cloud were best friends. Seems like Kunsel is Zack's best friend. Cloud's someone he quite likes, who he ends up taking care of through force of circumstances.
2. That Zack and Aerith had a great love. Zack's constantly chatting up other girls, and seems more interested in Cissnei by the end.
Mitch Connor
Its All Good Enough
- AKA
- Blazing782
Cloud tells us in FF7, after he regains his mind coming out of the lifestream sequence, that all SOLDIERS are not only infused with mako, but injected with J-cells.
Also, Zack is quite obviously smitten with Aerith, and considers her his special someone, above all the other girls he pulls.
Also, Zack is quite obviously smitten with Aerith, and considers her his special someone, above all the other girls he pulls.
the only reason he treks across the world towards Midgar, the base of the army that is chasing him, is to see Aerith. And when his DMW begins to break down as he dies, his last thoughts were of Aerith.
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- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
I have no idea how you thought Zack was more interested in Cissnei, when his motivating force was Aerith, and she was the last thought he had before dying.
Furthermore, Cloud and Zack were best friends. They ended up getting a lot closer after the turn of events regarding Angeal's death. They were pretty close. I'm not sure how you reached such backwards conclusions.
Furthermore, Cloud and Zack were best friends. They ended up getting a lot closer after the turn of events regarding Angeal's death. They were pretty close. I'm not sure how you reached such backwards conclusions.
Zack and Cloud
Well... in one of the last coherent conversations he has with Cloud, in Nibelheim, he calls Cloud, under his breath, a 'weirdo'. This isn't something he's doing to tease a friend; it's what he seems to really think. He and Cloud don't set out together to battle Sephiroth; Cloud's acting of his own volition and luckily arrives in time to save at day at the reactor, only to be taken by Hojo, together with Zack. After that Cloud doesn't really say much to Zack until Zack is dying. Zack doesn't give his life for Cloud because Cloud is his best friend, but because Cloud is the person whom he has chosen to rescue. The reason he never abandons Cloud is because he's a good guy and a hero, not because Cloud is his best friend. Zack in fact tries to rescue everbody, against all the odds and in defiance of reality.
When they're in the lorry, he says "We're friends, right?" which is the kind of thing you say to someone when you're really just getting to know them. I don't have to say to my good friends, "We're friends, right?" because I know damn well we are. Zack doesn't have to say that to Kunsel, or even, in fact, to Sephiroth, because he already believed he and Sephiroth were friends.
He and Cloud could hardly have been close friends; when would they get the chance? By the time they get to Nibelheim, Zack knows Tseng better than he knows Cloud. Which is not to say he doesn't like Cloud. But Zack likes pretty much everybody (except Genesis).
So that's how I got my 'backward' idea. Cloud is not Zack's best friend, but I am willing to believe that Zack is Cloud's best friend (only friend?).
Zack's parents have asked Cissnei to join the family, and he anticipates this.
However, I have neither the need nor the desire for anyone else to agree with me. You asked how I arrived at these conclusions, so I told you.
Well... in one of the last coherent conversations he has with Cloud, in Nibelheim, he calls Cloud, under his breath, a 'weirdo'. This isn't something he's doing to tease a friend; it's what he seems to really think. He and Cloud don't set out together to battle Sephiroth; Cloud's acting of his own volition and luckily arrives in time to save at day at the reactor, only to be taken by Hojo, together with Zack. After that Cloud doesn't really say much to Zack until Zack is dying. Zack doesn't give his life for Cloud because Cloud is his best friend, but because Cloud is the person whom he has chosen to rescue. The reason he never abandons Cloud is because he's a good guy and a hero, not because Cloud is his best friend. Zack in fact tries to rescue everbody, against all the odds and in defiance of reality.
When they're in the lorry, he says "We're friends, right?" which is the kind of thing you say to someone when you're really just getting to know them. I don't have to say to my good friends, "We're friends, right?" because I know damn well we are. Zack doesn't have to say that to Kunsel, or even, in fact, to Sephiroth, because he already believed he and Sephiroth were friends.
He and Cloud could hardly have been close friends; when would they get the chance? By the time they get to Nibelheim, Zack knows Tseng better than he knows Cloud. Which is not to say he doesn't like Cloud. But Zack likes pretty much everybody (except Genesis).
So that's how I got my 'backward' idea. Cloud is not Zack's best friend, but I am willing to believe that Zack is Cloud's best friend (only friend?).
Zack's parents have asked Cissnei to join the family, and he anticipates this.
However, I have neither the need nor the desire for anyone else to agree with me. You asked how I arrived at these conclusions, so I told you.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
You really think he was serious? And just because he thought Cloud was weird doesn't mean he doesn't like him as a friend. He calls himself weird too, stating how normal is "overrated." So I don't see that as any indication they weren't close friends.
Yeah, he didn't set out with him because he was injured. Zack left him behind because he was hurt and bringing a wounded guy wouldn't really do any good. And Cloud didn't say much until Zack was dying because he was mako poisoned.
Cloud is called Zack's close friend several times in the 10th Anniversary Ultimania. The same words used to describe his friendship with Angeal and Sephiroth as well. I have no idea how you can say that they aren't best friends by the time Zack comes to age during the Nibelheim incident.
Cloud is not just a friend, or described as such. He's a close friend on the same level as Sephiroth and Angeal.
So because he says we're not "best friends forever" that means they weren't that close? You're reading way too much into that, and missing the point. He's saying it because its what a good friend would do for another. He was comforting him.
He wasn't close friends with Tseng. They were good colleagues but his close friends are described as Angeal, Cloud and Sephiroth. You can read it yourself in his profile. Furthermore, did you see any of his DMW scenes with Cloud? They had plenty of interaction and time before Nibelheim.
That's...entirely from Cissnei's end. Not Zack's. That's *her* flirting with him. Which is a big difference.
Yeah, and that's totally not in line with the game.
- AKA
- Mog
You realize that Cloud and Zack have known each other for several (at least 2 of those years from Cloud's end), and CC has several time skips? Even though they're in the military with full time jobs and missions all over the world, they both share the same home bases; Junon and Midgar.
Zack and Cloud cont
I have never read the Ultimania, so if it says they are close friends, then I guess Square Enix wants it that way.
But they don't act like close friends in Crisis Core, that's all I'm saying.
Of course I've seen the DMWs. There's one where Zack is musing to himself that he wishes he could show Aerith the sky. When Cloud asks him what's up, he brushes Cloud off with "Guy stuff". If Cloud was his best friend, don't you think he might talk to Cloud about Aerith? In all the DMW cuts scenes and all the time jumps you'd think some scenes could have been offered that show them acting together like close friends, but I haven't seen one, and I've played an awful lot of missions.
Of course I know Cloud was unable to speak because of the mako poisoning. Zack would have grown to care for him deeply precisely because Cloud was utterly dependent on him, in the same way that adults can come to love babies, but if you can't talk to each other you cannot develop a friendship.
It's probably a huge mistake to read too much into a few words that were, in any case, composed originally in another language. The script of CC is not exactly Shakespeare. Nevertheless, were I to be offering comfort to my best friend in a sticky situation, I'd say something like, "We've been friends a long time, haven't we?" or "We've been through so much together, we'll survive this too," and not the slightly uncertain, "We're friends, right?" which to me sounds a lot like, "we've been through so much we must be friends by now, don't you think?"
For me, one of the poignant things about this game is that, although Zack and Cloud hit it off right away on the way to Modeoheim, and are, I suppose, friends from that point on, their real closeness only starts developing during and after the Nibelheim incident, but it's wordless and is about one good person caring for another, helpless one; and at the very moment when it could begin to flower properly, it's cut short, just as Zack's relationship with Aerith is prevented from fully flowering, by his death - or maybe we should say by his conscious decision to sacrifice his life.
I'm not saying they weren't friends. Zack had lots and lots of friends. In Before Crisis he says that you only have to go on an assignment once with someone to be their friend. He rescues Cloud because that's the kind of guy he is, because it would be unthinkable to leave him behind. A lesser man would have left Cloud behind.
I prefer my interpretation because it makes Zack a more interesting character. However, if SE say they're best friends, then that's that. If that is the case, though, they should have made their best friendship more convincing in the game.
Bye for now
I have never read the Ultimania, so if it says they are close friends, then I guess Square Enix wants it that way.
But they don't act like close friends in Crisis Core, that's all I'm saying.
Of course I've seen the DMWs. There's one where Zack is musing to himself that he wishes he could show Aerith the sky. When Cloud asks him what's up, he brushes Cloud off with "Guy stuff". If Cloud was his best friend, don't you think he might talk to Cloud about Aerith? In all the DMW cuts scenes and all the time jumps you'd think some scenes could have been offered that show them acting together like close friends, but I haven't seen one, and I've played an awful lot of missions.
Of course I know Cloud was unable to speak because of the mako poisoning. Zack would have grown to care for him deeply precisely because Cloud was utterly dependent on him, in the same way that adults can come to love babies, but if you can't talk to each other you cannot develop a friendship.
It's probably a huge mistake to read too much into a few words that were, in any case, composed originally in another language. The script of CC is not exactly Shakespeare. Nevertheless, were I to be offering comfort to my best friend in a sticky situation, I'd say something like, "We've been friends a long time, haven't we?" or "We've been through so much together, we'll survive this too," and not the slightly uncertain, "We're friends, right?" which to me sounds a lot like, "we've been through so much we must be friends by now, don't you think?"
For me, one of the poignant things about this game is that, although Zack and Cloud hit it off right away on the way to Modeoheim, and are, I suppose, friends from that point on, their real closeness only starts developing during and after the Nibelheim incident, but it's wordless and is about one good person caring for another, helpless one; and at the very moment when it could begin to flower properly, it's cut short, just as Zack's relationship with Aerith is prevented from fully flowering, by his death - or maybe we should say by his conscious decision to sacrifice his life.
I'm not saying they weren't friends. Zack had lots and lots of friends. In Before Crisis he says that you only have to go on an assignment once with someone to be their friend. He rescues Cloud because that's the kind of guy he is, because it would be unthinkable to leave him behind. A lesser man would have left Cloud behind.
I prefer my interpretation because it makes Zack a more interesting character. However, if SE say they're best friends, then that's that. If that is the case, though, they should have made their best friendship more convincing in the game.
Bye for now
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- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
That's how guys are though. I don't know what exactly you're expecting but that's not at all uncommon in male friendships and bonds. What do you expect them to do as best friends? Cloud and Zack's relationship mirrors the close relationship he had with Angeal. Angeal had his secrets and stuff that he didn't tell Zack, just like Zack had his secrets he didn't tell Cloud. The fact is, is that they were good friends and enjoyed each other's company. And they did confide and hang out together when they could.
And okay, that's how *you* would say it. Clearly Zack thought of comforting Cloud in a different way and that in no way diminishes the friendship or its closeness. I'd definitely call that reading too much in the word choice. They were close. And no, their closeness developed well before the Nibelheim incident. I guess you just seem to really have gotten the dynamic between the two off.
They were not only friends, but close friends as the creator's and games have shown. Zack's demonstrated he wouldn't leave acquaintances he worked with behind already in Before Crisis, when Yishay and Sebastian were turned into AVALANCHE puppets and he had to either kill them or save them, and he opted for the latter. Even though he met them only once, he cared for them as close friends and helped them regain their humanity, and was with them when they died. And he made them a grave memorial which he visited regularly when he could. Cloud is his best friend, and he did that because as he said, they were friends, and that's what friends would do.
And okay, that's how *you* would say it. Clearly Zack thought of comforting Cloud in a different way and that in no way diminishes the friendship or its closeness. I'd definitely call that reading too much in the word choice. They were close. And no, their closeness developed well before the Nibelheim incident. I guess you just seem to really have gotten the dynamic between the two off.
They were not only friends, but close friends as the creator's and games have shown. Zack's demonstrated he wouldn't leave acquaintances he worked with behind already in Before Crisis, when Yishay and Sebastian were turned into AVALANCHE puppets and he had to either kill them or save them, and he opted for the latter. Even though he met them only once, he cared for them as close friends and helped them regain their humanity, and was with them when they died. And he made them a grave memorial which he visited regularly when he could. Cloud is his best friend, and he did that because as he said, they were friends, and that's what friends would do.
Zack etc...
Re Issai/Sebastian - my point exactly.
Re Angeal... I guess it depends what you mean by friend. There are many subtle gradations of friendship in FFVII. Frankly, I wouldn't describe Angeal as Zack's friend either; he's his commander, teacher, and mentor. It is precisely because there are many things he keeps from Zack that I'd say they aren't friends, whereas Angeal and Genesis are friends.
I'm sorry, I still feel that anyone who says, "We're friends, aren't we?" is expressing some degree of doubt about the relationship; it's not a done deal. It's like saying, I know I'm your friend, but are you mine? But those four words may be a poor translation of the Japanese, in which case my argument is without merit.
I suspect that if we debate this long enough, we will find we mostly agree on these points, but mean something different by friend.
PS Yes, I know guys don't talk about their feelings. Hmmm, yes... and Zack is learning, at Shinra, how much he has to keep hidden. All the same, are you telling me that if you were really serious about a girl you would not talk about her with your best friend? Someone you actually trusted? I think SE have to prevent Zack from talking to Cloud about Aerith because otherwise it would screw up FFVII; their hands really are tied, sometimes.
Re Issai/Sebastian - my point exactly.
Re Angeal... I guess it depends what you mean by friend. There are many subtle gradations of friendship in FFVII. Frankly, I wouldn't describe Angeal as Zack's friend either; he's his commander, teacher, and mentor. It is precisely because there are many things he keeps from Zack that I'd say they aren't friends, whereas Angeal and Genesis are friends.
I'm sorry, I still feel that anyone who says, "We're friends, aren't we?" is expressing some degree of doubt about the relationship; it's not a done deal. It's like saying, I know I'm your friend, but are you mine? But those four words may be a poor translation of the Japanese, in which case my argument is without merit.
I suspect that if we debate this long enough, we will find we mostly agree on these points, but mean something different by friend.
PS Yes, I know guys don't talk about their feelings. Hmmm, yes... and Zack is learning, at Shinra, how much he has to keep hidden. All the same, are you telling me that if you were really serious about a girl you would not talk about her with your best friend? Someone you actually trusted? I think SE have to prevent Zack from talking to Cloud about Aerith because otherwise it would screw up FFVII; their hands really are tied, sometimes.
- AKA
- Mog
I dunno man, this is the part where I think you're looking WAY too much into it. If anything, its the opposite, the vernacular used to a friend doesn't measure the friendship.
"HOW COULD YOU SAY THAT...I THOUGHT WE WERE....FRIENDS."
Come on. That's kinda gay. You're forgetting that these are two dudes we're talking about.
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- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
They make it extremely clear Angeal and Zack are very close friends. I have no idea what counts as friendship to you. Zack wasn't expressing doubt. He was adding emphasis. You're taking his words extremely out of context.
- AKA
- Mog
u talkin' to me, mako?