Revising the Midgar Zolom

Channy

Bad Habit
AKA
Ruby Rose, Lucy
Novus was suggesting for the remake that the impalement scene be removed if the player kills the snake during their crossing. Not sure I agree, but I can see how the value in the impact of the scene is lessened somewhat if the player has betaen one -- but it's still more impressive to have picked up a tree and stabbed the thing than to fight it for several minutes. :monster:

Yeah, for two reasons:

How many Midgar Zoloms are roaming the marsh? One seems menacing.. two.. three.. four.. seems like they're having a party.

Only if they make it nigh impossible to kill it at that point in the game.

Also for that reason. If you've beaten one then it's like, meh, not so bad. But it they really push the necessity of a Chocobo that this Zolom has 99999 HP and does 5000 damage which at that point of the game is overkill, then yeah, definitely leaves more impact when Sephiroth kebabs one.
 

hian

Purist
Novus was suggesting for the remake that the impalement scene be removed if the player kills the snake during their crossing. Not sure I agree, but I can see how the value in the impact of the scene is lessened somewhat if the player has betaen one -- but it's still more impressive to have picked up a tree and stabbed the thing than to fight it for several minutes. :monster:
Okay. Got it wrong.

And, I agree with your observation =P

I don't think it should be removed even if you kill one. I definitely think killing one if you get the strategy right should still be possible like in the original though, because it's one of those layers of depth that makes a game better to my mind.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
On a related note, do you agree that the Japanese dialogue gave no indication there was only one snake? It seemed to me it was used the same way "Weapon" was for those creatures -- people speak as though it's singular in the English translation when there were obviously several.

I think there's only one NPC in Junon who ever specifies that she's talking about more than one, and that's only evident because she uses an actual number.

EDIT: Yep, found it -- "I almost passed out when I saw Weapon. It seems Weapon was beaten, but a Shinra soldier told me there are 4 more."
 

hian

Purist
On a related note, do you agree that the Japanese dialogue gave no indication there was only one snake? It seemed to me it was used the same way "Weapon" was for those creatures -- people speak as though it's singular in the English translation when there were obviously several.

It gave no indication either way.
But, unless Sephiroth/Jenova is literally a few feet ahead of you, the snake went around you and attacked him first, and then he throws the snake on the tree a couple of minutes before you get there only to rush on ahead... then no, there has to be at least two snakes.
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
ズ (zu) is the Japanese phonetic used for the English plural denominator and is used consistently for that.
It is also the way Japanese are taught in schools that English plural words ending with "s" should be pronounced (a "z" sound rather than an "s").

So no, the word ミドガルズオルム (midogaruzoorumu) should not be cut before the "zu", and only a person who's not familiar with how English is conventionally written with katakana in Japan would make such a mistake (again, the localizer for FFVII, wtf...)

No word-play either - just Japanese directly writing Midgardsorm with Katakana, and making the mistake of using "zu" instead of "su" due to conventions and not being savvy enough with languages to recognize that Midgarsorm is not an English word, and that the "s" in the case of Norse languages, certainly isn't pronounced with a "z".

Midgar Zolom was definitely intended to be "Midgardsorm" (and should have been translated as such, or to the English equivalent "Midgard's Worm"). The only caveat I see to this, is that it might be reasonable to remove the "d" after the "r" seeing as FFVII's Midgar is spelled without it.

EDIT : I made a major screw-up writing this post - I intended to, and should have, included the possessive ['s], which in Japanese is also written and pronounced with the ズ (zu), since "Midgar's [w]Orm" here is not the plural s, but the possessive. I'm sorry for that. Point still stands the same though.


...but you're STILL making a HUGE error here either way, because that "s" (regardless of whether or not it's "ス" or "ズ" in the katakana) is not a plural OR possessive. It's NEITHER "Midgard's Ormr" or "Midgards Ormr".

The word is a Norse name, "Midgardsormr" which is derived from "Midgard" meaning World/Earth and "Sormr" meaning Serpent/Worm. Separating out "ミドガル" before the "ズオルム" into two individual words is absolutely 100% technically correct, especially if you're not using it as a single compound word specific to that legendary creature's name.

That's why "ミドガル" "ズオルム" works just fine. "Midgard" is changed to "Midgar" (since it's a place name in FFVII) and "Sormr" changed to the much more English-friendly, and more Katakana-raw-pronunciation-similar "Zolom".




X :neo:
 

hian

Purist
...but you're STILL making a HUGE error here either way, because that "s" (regardless of whether or not it's "ス" or "ズ" in the katakana) is not a plural OR possessive. It's NEITHER "Midgard's Ormr" or "Midgards Ormr".

The word is a Norse name, "Midgardsormr" which is derived from "Midgard" meaning World/Earth and "Sormr" meaning Serpent/Worm. Separating out "ミドガル" before the "ズオルム" into two individual words is absolutely 100% technically correct, especially if you're not using it as a compound word specific to that legendary creature's name.

Except that as a Norwegian, and as such, a person who's covered Norse in my education, I can tell you that you're wrong.
The Norse for serpent is "ormr" not "smorm". So no. Just no.

http://www.nordicnames.de/wiki/Miðgarðsormr
http://www.nordicnames.de/wiki/Ormr

The technical correct way to split the word is :
Miðgarð | s | ormr

In going from Jörmungandr to Miðgarðsormr, the s after ð is clearly a possessive, not an actual part of the word ormr, which is still almost identical to the word still used in most Scandinavian languages (orm), and the term Miðgarðsormr, is still almost unchanged in modern Norwegian, where it is referred to as "Midgardsormen" where the "s", again, is possessive.


That's why "ミドガル" "ズオルム" works just fine. "Midgard" is changed to "Midgar" (since it's a place name in FFVII) and "Sormr" changed to the much more English-friendly, and more Katakana-raw-pronunciation-similar "Zolom".

No, it was changed to Zolom in error, the same way a lot of other monster names where because the localizer was a person clueless of the cultural components to the words and names chosen by the original writers.
You see this happen all the time.
Look at articles and interviews from the 90's about up-coming FF games and see how often English journalist would butcher names of cast-members because they didn't know how to parse the Japanese into the English that the Japanese original envisioned when making up the names.

It's a mistake, pure and simple.
 
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X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
Except that as a Norwegian, and as such, a person who's covered Norse in my education, I can tell you that you're wrong.
The Norse for serpent is "orm" not "smorm". So no. Just no.

http://www.nordicnames.de/wiki/Miðgarðsormr
http://www.nordicnames.de/wiki/Ormr

The technical correct way to split the word is :
Miðgarð | s | ormr

In going from Jörmungandr to Miðgarðsormr, the s after ð is clearly a possessive, not an actual part of the word ormr, which is still almost identical to the word still used in most Scandinavian languages (orm), and the term Miðgarðsormr, is still almost unchanged in modern Norwegian, where it is referred to as "Midgardsormen" where the "s", again, is possessive.

I am totally mistaken then! :bigmonster:

I looked it up (while still reading the plural bit of your post), and the translation I pulled when having it separated as "Miðgarð sormr" translated it properly as "Midgard Worm" - hence my error in understanding there, when then reading your edit text about it being a possessive "s" instead.


No, it was changed to Zolom in error, the same way a lot of other monster names where because the localizer was a person clueless of the cultural components to the words and names chosen by the original writers.

It's also that you're doing translation from Norse >> Japanese >> English into a game that's also making references to Norse mythology in its own worldbuilding (main city called Midgar(d), Cloud's bike as Fenrir and all his Advent Chidlren wolf symbolism, etc). that's giving ground for potential subtle deviation.

It's especially because of that last bit that I kinda feel like it's fine making an alteration for it in this game to blend it with the mythology in FFVII, rather than sticking to the Norse version – especially if it's one of a brood of massive swamp serpents (as Sephiroth's defeat of one suggests) rather than a singular destructive entity like THE Midgardsormr (as it appears in other Final Fantasy games).


But thanks for being quick on correcting me! :awesomonster:



X :neo:
 

hian

Purist
Sorry. I hate correcting people, because I feel like douche doing it, even when I often feel compelled to do it. Still working on better ways to go about it.

Yeah, I'm fine with creative license being taken when translating, because sometimes it's necessary to capture the essence/spirit of what was said in the original language.

In this case, I'm more inclined to think the original word is better simply because "Zolom" isn't a word =P
FFVII, at least as far as the original is concerned, is pretty conservative with its fantasy expressions and words. Like "Cloud Strife" is clearly a fantasy name, but it's still just a name using common English terms right?
Yuffie, Tifa, and Aerith are all more substandard names, but they have pretty "realistic" surnames.
FFVII seems to have this theme of being a "fantasy parallel to the real world", and while I agree that "Midgar Zolom" fits into that theme to an extent, I think if we're going to take creative license anyways, they might as well pick a word that is a bit closer to home.
They could call it "Midgar's Wyrm", or "a Midgar serpent"(denoting the fact that there are more of them) for instance, which I think would fit the team and capture the essence of the original Japanese.
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
Sorry. I hate correcting people, because I feel like douche doing it, even when I often feel compelled to do it. Still working on better ways to go about it.

No apology needed. At all. Srsly.

Yeah, I'm fine with creative license being taken when translating, because sometimes it's necessary to capture the essence/spirit of what was said in the original language.

In this case, I'm more inclined to think the original word is better simply because "Zolom" isn't a word =P



:bigawesomonster:


In all seriousness though, neither are names like Acrophies, Cactuar, Chocobo, Cripshay, Epiolnis, Jayjujayme, Kyuvilduns, Malboro, Nerosuferoth, Tonberry, Valron, Vlakorados, Zemzelett, Zenene, etc. though I'm sure that most of them originated from something in mythology other than just keyboard mashing, but because they're creatures unique to the world of FFVII, they still fit those made-up labels even when they miss the precise translations.

While the game still has other known fantasy creatures (that aren't FF-specific) like Chimera, various different Dragons, Gargoyles, Ghosts, Goblins, Gremlins, Griffins, Hippogriff, a few different Sahagin, & Zuu they're all types of fantasy creatures rather than a singular being/character/entity from a particular mythology, which makes it different.

FFVII, at least as far as the original is concerned, is pretty conservative with its fantasy expressions and words. Like "Cloud Strife" is clearly a fantasy name, but it's still just a name using common English terms right? Yuffie, Tifa, and Aerith are all more substandard names, but they have pretty "realistic" surnames.

FFVII seems to have this theme of being a "fantasy parallel to the real world", and while I agree that "Midgar Zolom" fits into that theme to an extent, I think if we're going to take creative license anyways, they might as well pick a word that is a bit closer to home.

They could call it "Midgar's Wyrm", or "a Midgar serpent"(denoting the fact that there are more of them) for instance, which I think would fit the team and capture the essence of the original Japanese.

Continuing from the point I was making before, I also feel that the loaned words that are specific names of singular entities work better for things that are supposed to be slightly transcendent of the world – like the summons. Knights of the Round, Bahamut, Shiva, Ifrit, Odin, etc. clearly evoke something that's meant to be familiar and powerful, whereas the various creatures that you run into throughout the world are supposed to be new and strange (or at least generically fantasy-like).

I think that one of the reasons that I like "Midgar Zolom" as much as I do is that part of it is something derived of Norse mythology and FFVII-specific that is familiar (Midgar). The other is a made up word that seems to categorize the gigantic multi-tailed swamp snake – like how you could call something a python, cobra, viper, etc. but it's a made-up categorization.

It helps it stick in your head better than most of the other previously mentioned enemy names, but still makes it sound much cooler and more unique than the other just generic descriptive enemy names like Ancient Dragon, Bizarre Bug, Land Worm, Nibel Wolf, Razor Weed, Sea Worm, etc.



tl;dr



I feel like using "Midgardsormr" only really works well if it's a unique sort one-of-a-kind guardian of the swamp because it's specifically iconic and a direct borrow from a distinctly singular mythological entity, but calling it a/the "Midgar('s) Serpent/Wyrm" falls into being overly generic and doesn't carry any sense of ominous weight.

That's why the "Midgar Zolom" stands out as something that I actually care about at all since it really does sort of float in the middle ground. It's not just a generic random encounter, but it's not a boss either – it's something... in between, and it's original mistranslated name really fits because of that. Also, that's why I don't care at all if they do decide to properly translate things for any other generic random-encounter enemies like "Cokatolis" into "Cockatrice" etc.


That all being said, it's also up to however they decide to implement it in the Remake, too. It COULD be a huge, unstoppable thing that you have to avoid your first time through and can only FOR REAL defeat coming back through, at which point I think it'd more than earn the "Midgardsormr" name, or they could make it a generic, but tough enemy that'd feel appropriate as a Midgar Wyrm.

I'm still personally hopeful that it's sort of earned the name "Midgar Zolom" from its presence in the original.




X :neo:
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
My guess is that "Midgar Serpent" is what the localization team of the remake will go for. Even as a kid first playing the game and not yet knowing the ins and outs of translation/localization, I had thought "zolom" was supposed to mean "serpent" since the Norse influence on naming was obvious to my nerdy young mind, and I'd seen more than one encyclopedia entry on Norse mythology refer to the "World Serpent."
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
My guess is that "Midgar Serpent" is what the localization team of the remake will go for. Even as a kid first playing the game and not yet knowing the ins and outs of translation/localization, I had thought "zolom" was supposed to mean "serpent" since the Norse influence on naming was obvious to my nerdy young mind, and I'd seen more than one encyclopedia entry on Norse mythology refer to the "World Serpent."

Interestingly, before I knew about the translation, I'd always sort of had a head canon of "Zolom" being like a "Zaratan" is in AD&D for mythological turtle creatures. – Basically when you get big and badass enough to start to defy conventional existing categories, you'd give it its own tier category starting with the letter "Z" and leave it at that.

:awesomonster:




X :neo:
 

Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
^^If we were to follow that logic, we might as well call Chocobos ostriches. That's what they're clearly reskins of.

And I like the way Zolom rolls off the tongue... it just doesn't have the same feel as serpent does. Besides, serpent "feels" small (it's on the same level as snake) and "wrym" is a type of dragon in European tradition (and it feels "small" compared to the word dragon). Calling the Midgar Zolom the Midgar Serpent kinda feels like calling a dragon a lizard; it's technically correct, but the name lacks the "oomph" that the animal has.

Edit: Triple ninja'd...
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
^^If we were to follow that logic, we might as well call Chocobos ostriches. That's what they're clearly reskins of.
Were you responding to me here? All I said is that 11-year-old me thought "zolom" literally meant "serpent" because of the World Serpent of Norse mythology -- "Midgar" obviously being taken from "Midgard," the name of the Earth realm.

In any case, 11-year-old me wasn't far off since the mythological creature's name translates to "Midgard's Worm" and "ormr" was used in ye olden days to refer to snakes. =P
 
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hian

Purist
In all seriousness though, neither are names like Acrophies, Cactuar, Chocobo, Cripshay, Epiolnis, Jayjujayme, Kyuvilduns, Malboro, Nerosuferoth, Tonberry, Valron, Vlakorados, Zemzelett, Zenene, etc.

Cactuar clearly comes from the word Cactus, Chocobo comes from a Japanese snack, Malboro from the cigarettes, Nerosuferoth from Nosferatu, Tonberry is a word etc.

Some of these might be entirely invented words, but generally speaking, FF monsters carry derivative names from real things in the real world. That's a thematic motion common to FF games.

In the instances when it isn't apparent it's usually a sign that the reference either flew above your head because you aren't familiar with what it refers to, or it's because the name was butchered in translation.

What would Zolom be derivative off? It bears no resemblance at all to the word it was mistranslated from - that's my point.

Personally, I think there is a difference of quality when fantasy uses clever naming conventions that tie into real things, and when it just randomly combines letters because it sounds cool =P

But, it's a personal preference thing. I'm not saying they shouldn't use "Zolom" out of dogmatism for the "100% correct nature of FFVII as it was in Japanese", but simply out of personal preference for naming conventions that don't resort to original, but meaningless combinations of letters.
It's one thing that has bothered me with a lot of later FF games, and indeed the compilation as well. Lately SE seems to prefer doing the latter over the former.
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
Well, regardless of what those names are derivative of — they're still made-up. It doesn't make them any more "real" words than "Zolom" is. That was my main point with that bit you quoted.

Also, I have a REALLY hard time believing that Nerosuferoth (ネロスフェロス) is at ALL derivative of Nosferatu (ノスフェラトゥ), especially given that it's a little heat-attacking bird lizard creature that bears zero resemblance to a Vampire, and the katakana versions of those words aren't similar at all.

To answer your question, "Zolom" very clearly derivative of the Japanese Katakana-ization of "Midgardsormr". Once you take out the "Midgar" bit, you're left with "ズオルム" (Zu-o-ru-mu). Just because it's not directly taking apart the word the way that the original language does doesn't make it any less valid as a derivative fantasy creature name.

For example: It's not really any different than pulling "Godzilla" out of "ゴジラ" (Gojira) which itself comes from a hybridization of the Japanese words for Gorilla and Whale. The English version doesn't bear ANY resemblance to the origins of the name's hybridization, but instead has only a loose (arguably lazy) similarity to the Katakana pronunciation — but that's still perfectly fine, because it's a name of a fantasy creature.

You can maybe make an argument about quality, but what really matters with the name of a fantastic creature is whether or not the same sounds good and if it's memorable, and you'd be hard-pressed to argue that Midgar Zolom doesn't meet those criteria.




X :neo:
 

hian

Purist
Well, regardless of what those names are derivative of — they're still made-up. It doesn't make them any more "real" words than "Zolom" is. That was my main point with that bit you quoted.

If we're going to play that game :
X, you know as well as I that ALL words are made up. That's how language works.
However, there is a distinction between making a new word that is derivative to another that already exists, and making one up from nothing.

If you want to be pedantic about the way I phrased myself, sure, be my guest, but the point remains the same, and that criticism does not address that point.

Also, I have a REALLY hard time believing that Nerosuferoth (ネロスフェロス) is at ALL derivative of Nosferatu (ノスフェラトゥ), especially given that it's a little heat-attacking bird lizard creature that bears zero resemblance to a Vampire, and the katakana versions of those words aren't similar at all.

It's face and pointy ears does make it look like Nosferatu though, and granted the name similarity as well, that's one reasonable connection.

It's a minor point in either case, if I missed at one of the ones I gave you, and a pointless exercise to narrow your focus to one of them.

The point still stands - there is little to suggest that the FFVII team chose enemy names at random just because it sounded cool, and it's more likely based on all the ones we can identify, that the ones we can't are simply difficult to find because we lack the historical or cultural knowledge to recognize them.

To answer your question, "Zolom" very clearly derivative of the Japanese Katakana-ization of "Midgardsormr". Once you take out the "Midgar" bit, you're left with "ズオルム" (Zu-o-ru-mu). Just because it's not directly taking apart the word the way that the original language does doesn't make it any less valid as a derivative fantasy creature name.

It's very clearly an error of translation.
You can say that it's derication of Japanese katakana, but that's not an answer to my question. Clearly you can make any derivations you want from a word and turn it into another.
My question re-phrased is "what actual word is "Zolom" acting as a substitute for?".
In this case it would be "orm" now wouldn't it. But Zolom is so far removed from "orm" as to be completely unrecognizable, so it has retained non of its lineage connotation.

The term "Midgar Zolom"'s only saving grace in this regard is that it has "Midgar" in it.


For example: It's not really any different than pulling "Godzilla" out of "ゴジラ" (Gojira) which itself comes from a hybridization of the Japanese words for Gorilla and Whale. The English version doesn't bear ANY resemblance to the origins of the name's hybridization, but instead has only a loose (arguably lazy) similarity to the Katakana pronunciation — but that's still perfectly fine, because it's a name of a fantasy creature.

Have fun fighting that windmill Don Quijote.
Do I really have to remind you that I ended my last post with this :

But, it's a personal preference thing. I'm not saying they shouldn't use "Zolom" out of dogmatism for the "100% correct nature of FFVII as it was in Japanese", but simply out of personal preference for naming conventions that don't resort to original, but meaningless combinations of letters.

You can maybe make an argument about quality, but what really matters with the name of a fantastic creature is whether or not the same sounds good and if it's memorable,

I'm not really making that argument - I made a statement of personal preference.

That being said :

and you'd be hard-pressed to argue that Midgar Zolom doesn't meet those criteria.

I don't agree. I don't think Midgar Zolom is a memorable and good sounding name. I think it's because Midgar Zolom itself as a creature is so memorable, and you're accustomed to the name that represents it, that you're tied to the name.

If the Midgar Zolom had been named the "Shavelanks of Dappelcrab", you'd still be making this argument right now.

My personal take on names is that they only matter as much as their meaning, and in that sense, the only quality I think it's meaningful to speak of is how, for the lack of a better word, "clever" they are.

After all, words are just sounds we use to express meaning. And when those sounds don't have a particular meaning anymore, they are interchangeable and indistinguishable.
That's why a creature whose name acts as a clear parallel to other established fantastical creatures, or real creatures, work so much better than a random ensemble of letters and sounds.

Now, I'm being pedantic here, because obvious the root of "Midgar Zolom" is recognize-able in light of the creature it is used for.
That being said, I think "Midgar's wyrm/worm/snake/adder/etc." is better in this context because that's a name you'll recognize even if you haven't actually seen the snake, or had it described to you.
Whilst someone telling a person who hasn't seen or heard of it before "Beware of the Midgar Zolom", tells them absolutely nothing.

But again - this is just a matter of taste in either case.
I am not arguing here that using the more symbolically clear word is superior in some objective way - just that I prefer it that way.
 

Fangu

Great Old One
Sorry if this has been covered already in this thread, just thought I'd throw in a comment on the 'ormr' thing.
In any case, 11-year-old me wasn't far off since the mythological creature's name translates to "Midgard's Worm" and "ormr" was used in ye olden days to refer to snakes. =P
Still kind of does, in Norwegian, anyway. The word 'slange' is the most common word use for 'snake', but 'worm' isn't used for the term known as 'orm' in Norwegian; rather, it covers the Norwegian word 'mark'. An 'orm' in Norwegian is more commonly used as in say 'hoggorm' or 'huggorm', which translates to viper.

220px-Hoggorm-reproduksjon.jpg


Which is just another word for snake, from what I gather.

I was surprised to see 'Midgardsormr' translated to 'Midgar Zolom' and in my opinion, to stay true to the Norse origin, I'd prefer it if they'd stick with the first, especially now that I'm convinced it was a translation fuck up. Midtgardsormen is an exclusive character in Norse mythology. But hey, now that it's out there with its own twist and cultural reference and stuff, I guess it'll always stay the Midgar Zolom within the (English) VII universe.

To answer your question, "Zolom" very clearly derivative of the Japanese Katakana-ization of "Midgardsormr". Once you take out the "Midgar" bit, you're left with "ズオルム" (Zu-o-ru-mu). Just because it's not directly taking apart the word the way that the original language does doesn't make it any less valid as a derivative fantasy creature name.
But I think, in the Japanese version anyway, they always meant to reference the Midgardsormr in the Norse mythology. They meant to reference that exact character, the world snake of Midtgard.

So I think what you're saying is stretching an excuse. Picking apart Midgardsormr to Midgar + whatever is completely taking away the true meaning of a very specific three parted word or name - midgard + s + ormr, or ormr of Midgard; like hian explained, the way the s is used is still a very much alive part of the language I speak every day. To see someone pick apart that word as midgard + sormr, or in the case of Norwegian, Midtgard and sormen, looks really strange to me. 'Sormen' or 'sorm' is not a word, and neither was it in Old Norse.

If anything they should have named it 'Midgar Olom'. At least it'd be somewhat technically correct. :P
 
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The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
I have no particular horse in this race either way, but language stuff like this is probably the most fascinating topic of all for me. :monster: Probably what drew me to major in Communications.

I immensely appreciate having an understanding of where words come from, but at the same time, I savor how they evolve through misunderstanding, deliberate bastardization and straight-up laziness. "Made in America: An Informal History of the English Language in the United States" by Bill Bryson is a fantastic read for anyone interested in how those things have affected this language, especially when borrowing from others.

In this instance, I share your appreciation, X, for a unique name for a remarkable fantasy creature. I also share your appreciation, hian and Fangu, for accuracy in translation, particularly given when the word is derived from a language personal to you.

I'll admit a fondness for "Zolom" for all the reasons X has mentioned, but the same appeal would be satisfied for me by "Midgar Serpent" or "Midgar Worm." Using "Midgar" keeps the naming convention specific to FFVII and preserves the quality of a unique name for a remarkable fantasy creature.

I also get that "Zolom" would strike some as effectively being nonsense -- or even a lazy insult -- were it to be retained. Obviously, coming from a culture where new words/phrases are constantly being appropriated from outside and existing words/phrases are constantly being modified within, it would never occur to X or I to feel the way someone may when living in a culture where there is a constant sense that our identity is being lost to that same culture (I hope you won't mind me referencing a post you made on the topic over three years ago, Fangu; I simply found it fascinating and illuminating, and it has stayed with me ever since :monster:).

I think there was something else I wanted to say, but I can't remember now. It took me over an hour to write this 'cause I have a six month old. =P
 

hian

Purist
I also get that "Zolom" would strike some as effectively being nonsense -- or even a lazy insult -- were it to be retained. Obviously, coming from a culture where new words/phrases are constantly being appropriated from outside and existing words/phrases are constantly being modified within, it would never occur to X or I to feel the way someone may when living in a culture where there is a constant sense that our identity is being lost to that same culture (I hope you won't mind me referencing a post you made on the topic over three years ago, Fangu; I simply found it fascinating and illuminating, and it has stayed with me ever since :monster:).

I would just like to reiterate, even as a Norwegian, that non of these are actually issues to me.
I'm fine with the use of the term "Zolom" - I just happen to prefer the accurate translation.
"Zolom" does not offend me, nor do I see it as "wrong for being nonsense".
I simply personally find derivative words and fantasy expressions with a clear connection to real world languages and cultures to be more interesting for me as a viewer/reader/player/etc.
That's literally it. Just preference.
 

Fangu

Great Old One
And let me just quote myself in the post Tres linked:
English is making its way into our language like never before now. Just today I read an article about the French army in Mali which used the word 'intervenere' ('intervene') which is certainly stretching it to a new point, and it is not considered good Norwegian. But, in a couple of years, it probably will be. And why fight it? People changes (sic), country borders change, language changes. It's part of an everlasting evolution of our society.
Some people prefer it if they'd kept "Fleeing" in FF12 instead of translating it to "Escaping" in the English version. Or kept the names of the Paradigms in FF13. Translations must be seen within cultural context, rarely does it work to just swap out one word for the other. Intentional changes in translations are interesting to study, and at least with FF's, I think the localization teams do a splendid job.

But in this context, the translation was a mistake. A happy mistake I'd say, since players have grown so fond of it. I'd just prefer it if the outcome had been a proper translation as this was always the intention in the original game.

That's it. I'm not accusing anyone of butchering the heritage of my language :monster:
 

hian

Purist
Intentional changes in translations are interesting to study, and at least with FF's, I think the localization teams do a splendid job.

The localizer for FFVII however, did not do a splendid job =P
Just sayin', that job was a botched one of there ever was. There are so many outright amateurish mistakes in the translation it's a wonder nobody caught it before release and went "WTF mate! Were you drinking on the job or what?"
 

Mayo Master

Pro Adventurer
The localizer for FFVII however, did not do a splendid job =P
Just sayin', that job was a botched one of there ever was. There are so many outright amateurish mistakes in the translation it's a wonder nobody caught it before release and went "WTF mate! Were you drinking on the job or what?"
I can't remember the whole story about it (I'm pretty sure there's material about it out there, though), but as far as I recall the localization of FF VII was pretty much done by one guy who was given lines to translate with no context, and was constrained by the number of characters displayed in the dialog boxes (whose sizes had been tailored to suit Japanese text). It was pretty much a recipe for disaster.
Not to mention non-English localizations (such as the French one), which were poor translations from the English (I really needed to use my imagination to connect all the dots of the storyline, back then!). I don't know if you had a Norwegian localization, if that was the case it must have looked quite ehm... quaint?
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
You're thinking of the limitations imposed on Ted Woolsey when translating SNES-era games. With the PlayStation era, they no longer had limits like being unable to alter text boxes -- but for FFVII, they apparently still left the whole of the translation effort to one Michael Baskett, who had little access to help. He was able to ask some native Japanese speakers to assist with the more difficult segments, but still had to translate the text of what they said too.
 
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