Sephiroth The Purpose Seeker

[Unlucky]

I agree, I even have a headcanon of him being an art enthusiast.

Or he could also have been a scientist instead of a warrior; he would have channeled his passion for LOVELESS into research.

 

[jazzflower92]

I agree, I even have a headcanon of him being an art enthusiast.

Or he could also have been a scientist instead of a warrior; he would have channeled his passion for LOVELESS into research.

Then he would annoy the lab aides with his LOVELESS obsession who already have to deal with Hojo on a regular basis.

 

[Clement Rage]

Honestly, I think people overplay his obsession with LOVELESS, it becomes his mantra after he believes that it holds the secret to saving his life. Before that, he was probably just a slightly annoying guy with a penchant for reciting lines from a play (only about twelve lines, remember, from a full length play. It's not as though he does it for hours, and he's more than willing to cut the crap when things get down to the wire (tripping Zack and having his minions pin him).

 

[jazzflower92]

Honestly, I think people overplay his obsession with LOVELESS, it becomes his mantra after he believes that it holds the secret to saving his life. Before that, he was probably just a slightly annoying guy with a penchant for reciting lines from a play (only about twelve lines, remember, from a full length play. It's not as though he does it for hours, and he's more than willing to cut the crap when things get down to the wire (tripping Zack and having his minions pin him).

I think the reason is because Sephiroth said himself that Genesis kept spouting LOVELESS to the point he now remembers a lot of its lines.

 

[Skan]

I always thought Genesis was like the smart, socially awkward literature nerd who ended up in a job that didn't fit him well. I don't know, I've met several people who know Shakespeare that well who are either in theater, or are literary profs. Genesis has always seemed to be more cut out for academia/the arts then the military...

Completely agree.

Interpretation time: I think Genesis doesn't actually care for SOLDIER as SOLDIER. He sees it as a means to an end (i.e. fame) and cares about it only for what it says about him personally (that he's talented and skilled). All that stuff about SOLDIER pride and honor? He just doesn't get it. His definition of heroism is so skewed by his self-absorption that, to him, it's primarily about the recognition; everything else is secondary.

That's what the end of CC is all about, in my opinion. Angeal and Zack are the ones who truly understand what heroism is -- heroism is about doing what you can to save people who can't save themselves. Zack conveys this to Genesis in the final battle, who by that point is so far gone that he can't save himself, so Zack has to do it for him. Sometime during that battle, Genesis realizes what Zack is doing and that spurs on Genesis's desire to become, in his own words, a "silent sacrifice" for the Planet. He's no longer concerned about glory, but about (hypothetically) becoming a selfless sacrifice for a cause greater than just himself. (All this was, of course, conveyed horribly by the game, but I'm convinced this is what happened.)

Okay, that was just spawned by your comment on academia/arts. Looping back around ... I don't think it was ever an option for him to go down those routes, because they wouldn't have garnered him enough recognition, even if they would've fit him better.

In my headcanon, I admit that he spends a lot of time haunting the materia lab and the library and sneaking into university lectures on lit theory.

 

[jazzflower92]

Completely agree.

Interpretation time: I think Genesis doesn't actually care for SOLDIER as SOLDIER. He sees it as a means to an end (i.e. fame) and cares about it only for what it says about him personally (that he's talented and skilled). All that stuff about SOLDIER pride and honor? He just doesn't get it. His definition of heroism is so skewed by his self-absorption that, to him, it's primarily about the recognition; everything else is secondary.

That's what the end of CC is all about, in my opinion. Angeal and Zack are the ones who truly understand what heroism is -- heroism is about doing what you can to save people who can't save themselves. Zack conveys this to Genesis in the final battle, who by that point is so far gone that he can't save himself, so Zack has to do it for him. Sometime during that battle, Genesis realizes what Zack is doing and that spurs on Genesis's desire to become, in his own words, a "silent sacrifice" for the Planet. He's no longer concerned about glory, but about (hypothetically) becoming a selfless sacrifice for a cause greater than just himself. (All this was, of course, conveyed horribly by the game, but I'm convinced this is what happened.)

Okay, that was just spawned by your comment on academia/arts. Looping back around ... I don't think it was ever an option for him to go down those routes, because they wouldn't have garnered him enough recognition, even if they would've fit him better.

In my headcanon, I admit that he spends a lot of time haunting the materia lab and the library and sneaking into university lectures on lit theory.

Agreed, Genesis is a big attention seeker who would follow the path that would give him fame and recognition in the world. He could have put his talents somewhere else but he would have thought that assigning himself to a lesser position in life was beneath him.

 

[Skan]

He's a glory hound through and through. I think part of that must stem from his childhood -- was he ignored as a kid, not given what he thought he deserved, etc.? -- but I haven't managed to puzzle that part out completely. I know a lot of people like to portray him like a variant of Draco Malfoy when he's a kid or something -- spoiled, rich brat -- but I honestly think that's oversimplifying his character (in the same way that people oversimplify Sephiroth by portraying him as a social idiot).

 

[jazzflower92]

He's a glory hound through and through. I think part of that must stem from his childhood -- was he ignored as a kid, not given what he thought he deserved, etc.? -- but I haven't managed to puzzle that part out completely. I know a lot of people like to portray him like a variant of Draco Malfoy when he's a kid or something -- spoiled, rich brat -- but I honestly think that's oversimplifying his character (in the same way that people oversimplify Sephiroth by portraying him as a social idiot).

From what we know about his foster parents they absolutely were loving and supporting of him so the theory he was ignored as a kid can be thrown out the window. In fact they tried to make sure he was not enlisted into the Wutai War. It also mentions how as a kid he explored the abandoned mines near his hometown and made it into his base. Lastly Genesis as a kid won a competition for the idea of Banora White Apple Juice. All of this points to the fact that he did have a very good childhood.

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Banora

When you explore Genesis's desk at the base you will notice how he was interested in agriculture since his family owned a dumpapple orchard. Speaking of his parents and his village it seems the game does not potray his killing everyone as a big moral event horizon. I mean even if you argue his parents were in leagues with Shinra it still would be no excuse to kill all the villagers in the town as well. I think Genesis after that should not have been seen as smpyathetic at all.

 

[Skan]

We actually don't know much about his parents. All we know is that at the beginning, they were assigned to observe him and that they eventually came to love him enough so that they would deceive ShinRa if asked. Whether or not they were actually "loving and supportive" is another matter altogether.

Also, can you cite me a source re: his parents trying to keep him from enlisting? You may be confusing Genesis's foster parents with Gillian (who hated ShinRa and tried to discourage Angeal from joining SOLDIER). As far as I'm aware, Genesis's foster parents didn't object.

And just because you get to run around outside as a kid and win a science competition doesn't mean you had a good childhood.

 

[jazzflower92]

We actually don't know much about his parents. All we know is that at the beginning, they were assigned to observe him and that they eventually came to love him enough so that they would deceive ShinRa if asked. Whether or not they were actually "loving and supportive" is another matter altogether.

Also, can you cite me a source re: his parents trying to keep him from enlisting? You may be confusing Genesis's foster parents with Gillian (who hated ShinRa and tried to discourage Angeal from joining SOLDIER). As far as I'm aware, Genesis's foster parents didn't object.

And just because you get to run around outside as a kid and win a science competition doesn't mean you had a good childhood.

Mostly because fans in the past would try to draco in leathor pants Genesis in justifying why he burned down his town. Some even to the point they try to paint his parents as abusive even though there is no evidence in canon. I think Genesis is one of those characters whose actions can be stemmed from the fact that he was raised with getting everything he wants and no one being able to say no to his demands. It might sound like simplification but in real life there are some people who are self entitled brats who don't understand the consequences of their actions.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

While your last comment is true, dief, I think jazz's point is that everything we're shown of his childhood is positive and that there must be a reason for that on the creative side of things. His foster parents even funded his fan club.

I think we're meant to see him as ungrateful. In some of the e-mails, we see that Angeal likes reminders of home while Genesis resents them.

 

[jazzflower92]

http://thelifestream.net/lifestream-projects/translations/340/crisis-core-ultimania-scenario-qa/

Heck, the Ultimania is why I have drawn my conclusions about Genesis because the is strong evidence he got everything a child could ask for which is parents who love him, a hometown, and a well off background but he still felt he got the short end of the stick which really makes not feel any real smpathy towards this guy.

The translations from the Ultimanias point to this :
"Despite being under observation, after living as parents and child for so many years Genesis’ ‘parents’ eventually become attached to him, and are willing to betray ShinRa to protect him. However, his foster parents’ true intent doesn’t get through to Genesis, and kills even his parents."

Not to mention how Genesis didn't have a good excuse to kill any of the villagers as well. The fans may poorly excuse away his parents but killing people that had nothing to with it all really should have been seen as a line Genesis crossed. What makes it more heinous is that Genesis was killing people who he had known for years and probably saw him as a fellow neighbor.

"The villagers were not told that Gillian, Angeal, and Genesis were connected to ShinRa, though a few people knew of it such as Genesis’ foster parents and the town trustees."

 

[Skan]

I don't think his parents were abusive at all, nor do I think he suffered from anything like bullying. But I don't think his childhood was particularly "healthy," because he's flat-out just not well-adjusted. I see your point though, Squall, and I agree he's portrayed as ungrateful. (Quick question: Did he kill his parents because he discovered they weren't his real parents, or did he kill them because he discovered they were ShinRa spies? I always got the impression that it was the latter, but does anyone have a clear answer for this question?)

I guess my main point is this: Not all spoiled, rich kids turn into sociopaths -- in fact, I would hazard to say that most spoiled, rich kids do not turn out this way -- so why did he?

 

[jazzflower92]

I don't think his parents were abusive at all, nor do I think he suffered from anything like bullying. But I don't think his childhood was particularly "healthy," because he's flat-out just not well-adjusted. I see your point though, Squall, and I agree he's portrayed as ungrateful. (Quick question: Did he kill his parents because he discovered they weren't his real parents, or did he kill them because he discovered they were ShinRa spies? I always got the impression that it was the latter, but does anyone have a clear answer for this question?)

I guess my main point is this: Not all spoiled, rich kids turn into sociopaths -- in fact, I would hazard to say that most spoiled, rich kids do not turn out this way -- so why did he?

In this case sometimes I just blame the person himself when everything in his background shows that he got everything he wanted. Some people are not satisfied even when they have it good because they will always be yearning for something that is out of their reach.

 

[Skan]

jazz, I'm under the impression that you think I want to somehow excuse his actions. I don't. I think what he did is completely inexcusable. But I am interested in excavating his character from what little information we have of him, both because he's not a dead-end and because his portrayal in fandom is frustratingly one-dimensional (mirroring his one-dimensional portrayal in CC -- but hey, fandom has salvaged more than one character for me before).

I don't think people are sociopaths "just because," but at this point we are wandering far into endless interpretation.

EDIT: I will totally admit that my reading and interpretation of Genesis's character is heavily, heavily influenced by my interpretation of Seifer in FF8. I think they're cut from the same cloth. Have a weird theory that both Genesis and Angeal are split halves of Seifer's character. My skimpy evidence is that Seifer's last name means "from the land of the apples." *cough*

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

What makes him such a frustrating character from the fandom perspective is that we are given no reason for him to be the way he is -- so you get people inventing abusive foster parents and such, when that is plainly not the case. I agree with you that people generally aren't so ill-adjusted "just because," yet that's the impression we're given with him.

 

[jazzflower92]

jazz, I'm under the impression that you think I want to somehow excuse his actions. I don't. I think what he did is completely inexcusable. But I am interested in excavating his character from what little information we have of him, both because he's not a dead-end and because his portrayal in fandom is frustratingly one-dimensional (mirroring his one-dimensional portrayal in CC -- but hey, fandom has salvaged more than one character for me before).

I don't think people are sociopaths "just because," but at this point we are wandering far into endless interpretation.

EDIT: I will totally admit that my reading and interpretation of Genesis's character is heavily, heavily influenced by my interpretation of Seifer in FF8. I think they're cut from the same cloth. Have a weird theory that both Genesis and Angeal are split halves of Seifer's character. My skimpy evidence is that Seifer's last name means "from the land of the apples." *cough*

I think Dr.Hojo would be a good example of a sociopath just because he can although he would use the "for science" excuse even though he probably would not find it as much fun if he didn't do some nasty stuff to his test subjects.

 

[Skan]

That's hard to say. As fun as it is to hate on Hojo for being the source of all fucking evil in FF7, we don't really have anything on his background.

I honestly think to make it as a SOLDIER (or as a scientist in FF7, lol!) you have to be sociopathic/psychopathic to some degree ... otherwise you'd go crazy. I'm amazed characters like Angeal and Zack made it through. I can see how Angeal might, since he kind of seems to me to be the character who might work for a shady company "for the greater good" (not unlike Reeve, and I refuse to believe that Angeal was unaware of ShinRa's immoral side), but Zack boggles me sometimes. Then I remember he's not the sharpest tool in the shed.

Nothing will be a better breeding ground for sociopaths than SeeD though, heh.

@ Squall: Yeah, you're right. I'm just frustrated. I started out in the FF8 fandom years ago, and I was astonished at how much people were able to squeeze out of some of the one-dimensional characters in that game, so I'm ... kind of surprised people haven't done the same for some characters in the FF7 fandom. But then again (and for some weird reason), FF8 attracted a lot of character-study writers back in the day, and my brief stint in the FF7 fandom has not turned up nearly the same depth of examination.

 

[jazzflower92]

That's hard to say. As fun as it is to hate on Hojo for being the source of all fucking evil in FF7, we don't really have anything on his background.

I honestly think to make it as a SOLDIER (or as a scientist in FF7, lol!) you have to be sociopathic/psychopathic to some degree ... otherwise you'd go crazy. I'm amazed characters like Angeal and Zack made it through. I can see how Angeal might, since he kind of seems to me to be the character who might work for a shady company "for the greater good" (not unlike Reeve, and I refuse to believe that Angeal was unaware of ShinRa's immoral side), but Zack boggles me sometimes. Then I remember he's not the sharpest tool in the shed.

Nothing will be a better breeding ground for sociopaths than SeeD though, heh.

@ Squall: Yeah, you're right. I'm just frustrated. I started out in the FF8 fandom years ago, and I was astonished at how much people were able to squeeze out of some of the one-dimensional characters in that game, so I'm ... kind of surprised people haven't done the same for some characters in the FF7 fandom. But then again (and for some weird reason), FF8 attracted a lot of character-study writers back in the day, and my brief stint in the FF7 fandom has not turned up nearly the same depth of examination.

The scary part of about that is there are actually fans out there who try to pain Hojo as sympathetic. Yes, the most evil and monsterous person of Final Fantasy 7 is actually seen by some fans as being able to have some redeeming qualities. They actually try to argue that Hojo really deep down in that black hole he calls a heart loved Sephiroth but didn't know how to show it.

 

[Roger]

I'm amazed characters like Angeal and Zack made it through. I can see how Angeal might, since he kind of seems to me to be the character who might work for a shady company "for the greater good" (not unlike Reeve, and I refuse to believe that Angeal was unaware of ShinRa's immoral side), but Zack boggles me sometimes. Then I remember he's not the sharpest tool in the shed.

In this I think people just underestimate Zack sometimes. Zack isn't unaware of the companies dark side either. He finds out about the experiments that created Genesis and Angeal, he gets email confirming their deaths long before it happened. He has to rush to evacuate civilians before Shinra burns Banora to the ground to cover up evidence. He is not in any way hidden from the truth but even before he takes up Angeals legacy upon his death he has no intentions of leaving Shinra. He believes in what SOLDIER does.

 

[Clement Rage]

I think the reason is because Sephiroth said himself that Genesis kept spouting LOVELESS to the point he now remembers a lot of its lines.

Heh, true.

The scary part of about that is there are actually fans out there who try to pain Hojo as sympathetic.

I'm not very tied to the idea that he's sympathetic, I just think it's more interesting if he is. There's the slightly interesting fact that he could easily have had a random woman kidnapped for his experiment if he wanted, but chose to marry Lucy instead.

I'm ... kind of surprised people haven't done the same for some characters in the FF7 fandom.

They have, but it's a bigger fandom, so it's harder to find those stories.

I don't think anyone is arguing that village massacres are good things.

That's what the end of CC is all about, in my opinion. Angeal and Zack are the ones who truly understand what heroism is -- heroism is about doing what you can to save people who can't save themselves. Zack conveys this to Genesis in the final battle, who by that point is so far gone that he can't save himself, so Zack has to do it for him. Sometime during that battle, Genesis realizes what Zack is doing and that spurs on Genesis's desire to become, in his own words, a "silent sacrifice" for the Planet. He's no longer concerned about glory, but about (hypothetically) becoming a selfless sacrifice for a cause greater than just himself.

I don't know, for my money, the game is about Zack slowly learning what heroism is. Early on, his ambitions are almost self defeating because he's doing what he does in order to be 'a hero' in the Sephiroth line, and so they're just his job. His big concern in Wutai isn't to save lives, it's to get promoted by the director.

There's a fanfic called Eidolon by somebody called Silver Pard that pointed out something interesting. In Nibelheim reactor, when Zack tells Cloud "Finish Sephiroth!", he had no reasonable grounds to believe that he'd succeed. So as far as he knew, he was sending Cloud to his death. He should probably have said "Cloud, run!" The fanfic paints the whole escape from Shinra manor as Zack trying to redeem himself for that, and finally achieving heroism in his selfless last stand, when he's doing it just to save somebody and not to be a hero.

 

[Skan]

@ Minato Arisato: I definitely sell Zack short, but much of that is because I don't know what to think of him. I'm not saying he didn't know that ShinRa was doing nasty things, just that he spent a lot of time ... not really concerned about it, even in the face of a lot of evidence? I'm reminded of that time in Wutai where the Crescent Unit ambushes him and tries to convince him to join them, and he just spouts off this horribly simple line about how more mako is better for the people and that he signed up for SOLDIER so he's gonna stay with ShinRa. Granted, that was at the beginning of his arc, but I get the same feeling from him up until Nibelheim, where he starts to show some doubts and cracks, but that's a long time to let ShinRa string you along. Self-denial and ignorance, perhaps?


@ Clement: While that's a good point about Zack and heroism, it doesn't change my point. By the time Zack fought Genesis, I think he had a very clear idea of what "heroism" is, even if at the point he wasn't really thinking about it as heroism. I'd probably put the turning point (or the beginning of the turning point) for Zack around the time when he and Cloud are having that talk at the Nibelheim inn, and Zack shows an extreme amount of frustration over just doing what he's ordered to do.

Thanks for the rec! If you have any more to recommend, please let me know (esp. if there's an FF7 author anything like FF8's magistrate). Been trawling around and trying to find stories, but as you mention, it's not easy. I expect that the fandom's fragmentation into little itty bits, courtesy of the Compilation and the great migration from LJ and FFN, is going to make me give up on it soon.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

There's a fanfic called Eidolon by somebody called Silver Pard that pointed out something interesting. In Nibelheim reactor, when Zack tells Cloud "Finish Sephiroth!", he had no reasonable grounds to believe that he'd succeed. So as far as he knew, he was sending Cloud to his death. He should probably have said "Cloud, run!" The fanfic paints the whole escape from Shinra manor as Zack trying to redeem himself for that, and finally achieving heroism in his selfless last stand, when he's doing it just to save somebody and not to be a hero.

That's an interesting idea. I'm quite sure Zack believed he could do it, though (Cloud had already delivered a wound that would kill anyone else), but it's an interesting idea.

I'm not very tied to the idea that he's sympathetic, I just think it's more interesting if he is. There's the slightly interesting fact that he could easily have had a random woman kidnapped for his experiment if he wanted, but chose to marry Lucy instead.

Hojo is smart enough to know that a willing pregnant woman is more reliable than an unwilling subject. A forced participant may miscsrry due to stress or deliberately terminate the pregnancy out of spite. Sure, you could keep her drugged the whole time, but do you really want to risk that causing a miscarriage or your prized Cetra coming out drugged to hell and gone?

He's not above doing it, of course (see: Red XIII and Aerith), but we've never been given reason to believe he's cruel for cruelty's sake. Only for science's sake. A willing participant would always be preferred. It just happens that no one would volunteer for a lot of his experiments. XD

 

[Skan]

Hm, after reading a bit of Eidolon, I have to say I disagree with the characterization of Zack. While I can potentially see Zack feeling guilty over getting Cloud stuck in a test tube for four years,* the part that seems OOC to me is Zack consciously sending Cloud after Sephiroth, because he wants to see Cloud die/fail. I understand the fic tries to paint a picture of Zack as a fallible human, and Zack is certainly human, but I just don't see any bad will in him. A simplistic approach to take towards him, perhaps, but I just can't reconcile Eidolon's Zack with CC's Zack or CC's theme as a whole. (That said, there are certainly some nice observations/interpretations made about the characters in the story.)

*Still need to think about this a bit more. I can see it swinging both ways, but one of the things I do like about Zack is that he very clearly knows that sometimes there are just things you have to do, even if you don't like doing them -- e.g. killing Genesis the first time, killing Angeal, fighting Sephiroth in Nibelheim, fighting Genesis the second time, etc. People push their problems onto him, and he takes them up, because he has to. Coupling this attitude with the rest of his characterization in CC makes me feel he wouldn't feel particularly guilty -- people do what they need to do -- but if someone took another stab at this idea, I could be convinced. It's certainly interesting.

 

[Roger]

@ Minato Arisato: I definitely sell Zack short, but much of that is because I don't know what to think of him. I'm not saying he didn't know that ShinRa was doing nasty things, just that he spent a lot of time ... not really concerned about it, even in the face of a lot of evidence? I'm reminded of that time in Wutai where the Crescent Unit ambushes him and tries to convince him to join them, and he just spouts off this horribly simple line about how more mako is better for the people and that he signed up for SOLDIER so he's gonna stay with ShinRa. Granted, that was at the beginning of his arc, but I get the same feeling from him up until Nibelheim, where he starts to show some doubts and cracks, but that's a long time to let ShinRa string you along. Self-denial and ignorance, perhaps?

I just don't see it Shinra "stringing" him along. That again implies he is being fooled. Sure he doesn't know draining Mako energy is eventually gonna kill the planet but neither does Shinra. Fact is that Shinra IS the established order now, the only government the world has. He wants to help people and not by being a terrorist like AVALANCHE, the Crescent Unit or the Genesis army. Barret's AVALANCHE doesn't blow up mako reactors killing hundreds/thousands in the process for no good reason, it IS the only way to topple Shinra and Zack doesn't roll that way. He does plenty of actual good as a member of SOLDIER, why would he quit?