Sephiroth: What the fuck happened?

[Makoeyes987]

Well, we all know what happened. It's the why and how that's the interesting part.

With Crisis Core, we saw a side to Sephiroth that has never been shown before in FFVII. Sephiroth as not only a human being, but a rather nice and warm hearted one towards his friends. We see him smile, laugh, joke and even get anecdotal evidence of the types of games and stuff he'd do with his friends.

Sephiroth is shown to value his interpersonal relationships (few as they may seem) and even specifically requests Zack to go along with him to Nibelheim because he sees him as a friend and worthy comrade.

But all of that amounted to shit when he finally loses his mind, knowing the truth about his birth. He changes. The once hero and friend to Zack not only murders and burns down the village, but tries to kill his friend. And even smiles wickedly while doing so.

Do you think it was his true nature, this violent, cruel streak? Or do you think it was something that was created when he lost his mind? And do you think he'd still be the good, heroic person he was known for, had he never discovered the truth behind his birth?

 

[Max Payne]

Re: Sephiroth: What the fucked happened?

He obviously wasn't that good a person in the first place.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Re: Sephiroth: What the fucked happened?

Are you sure though?

What about all the good stuff he *did* do? Do you think he was faking it?

 

[sephirothpaine]

Re: Sephiroth: What the fucked happened?

I don't think he was "faking" being good to others. If I were in his shoes I would lose my mind.

 

[Max Payne]

Re: Sephiroth: What the fucked happened?

[quote author=Makoeyes987 link=topic=272.msg6545#msg6545 date=1231358861]
Are you sure though?

What about all the good stuff he *did* do? Do you think he was faking it?
[/quote]

No, he did what he had to, to survive in his world.

Did what was expected of him, because that was all he knew, until he learned the truth and his perceived "birthright" or whatever he was on about during his lapse in sanity.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Re: Sephiroth: What the fucked happened?

So you think Sephiroth was like an anti-social/sociopath. Just kinda "fitting in" and faking what he thought was expected of him without genuinely feeling it.

Well you could make an argument for that. It certainly explains his quickness and ability to go from smiling warmly towards his friend Zack, to smirking wickedly and with pleasure as he tried to chop him up and push him into the lifestream.

Some might try to say he just went apeshit because of Jenova though.

 

[Max Payne]

Re: Sephiroth: What the fucked happened?

[quote author=Makoeyes987 link=topic=272.msg6553#msg6553 date=1231359541]

Some might try to say he just went apeshit because of Jenova though.
[/quote]

Did the UO or one of those books prove that to be bullshit?

I mean, seriously, I'd think Jenova would be too drugged out, or incapacitated to have any kind of overwhelming presence in Sepiroth's psyche.

Plus, Jenova being the deciding factor is just plain damned uninteresting.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Re: Sephiroth: What the fucked happened?

UO states that Sephiroth was in control and that he ended up dominating her will when she tried to take control when he fell into the lifestream. Doesn't really say much though in regards to how he went crazy though. Just that he did.

I find it uninteresting that he went insane because "LOL Jenova cells" as well. But I think it may have played some role. But I personally think that while he may have felt some sort of kinship with Zack and the others, the subsequent events of CC, BC, and the madness of Shinra caused him to eventually lose faith in humanity and his relationships. He just felt alone and didn't trust anyone. In Nibelheim he finally found something that was truly consistent and real. Something to give him purpose for himself.

His own madness and evil. The power of Jenova.

 

[Dark and Divine]

Re: Sephiroth: What the fucked happened?

I think that, originally, Sephiroth would not have this dark nature of his, but through his life, his descontent with humanity could have started to increase by watching how people can be greedy and cruel to each other.

This disappoitment with humans may had developed to the point of Sephiroth simply no longer cared for mankind as a whole.

(I can relate to that, since i too became a bit cold-hearted as i grew up, by watching how greedy and cruel people can be)

However, i don't think at this point he had any kind of murderous intentions and, as we saw in CC, Sephiroth even developed a strong friendship with Angeal and Genesis.

But after the encounter with Elfe, i think that Sephiroth's darkest nature began to grow.

Having his two best friends deserting and revolting against the institution where Sephiroth grew and, to an extent, against himself, didn't help either.

And having one of his friends dying while the other wanted to mentally destroy him only served to Sephiroth dig even deeper in his dark side.

But the discovery of the truth behind his tainted birth was really the last drop.

That was the moment that his growing disappointment with humans became a true hatred for mankind and all it represents.

All in all, i think that Sephiroth had already that dark nature inside of him, but it were those events that really made him take a path that separated him from mankind forever.

 

[Arianna]

Re: Sephiroth: What the fucked happened?

Taking into account the possibility of his upbringing and family traits, moreso Hojo's side of things, I would not disbelieve Sephiroth suffers from the same. Hojo has an undeniable cruel streak which he masks under the guise of science, Sephiroth - while I believe he was at one time more in control of himself than Hojo was - does so under the guise of the duties of being a member of SOLDIER. He was born and raised to kill.

While I have not played Before Crisis, I have read some of the translated chapters. Correct me if I am wrong, but there is a scene where it's found Sephiroth had mercilessly killed all the AVALANCHE members in section of Junon? I use that as a prime example; granted, also a prime example of his job at the same time.

I think that Sephiroth's change is also due to the influence of Jenova; he was (as far as we know) never really close to Jenova's main body before this incident. A weak point in his mentality, and Jenova kicked in hard and strong. Of course, this is only my idea, as Jenova is dead (as far as we know, the real being that is Jenova). Still, her/it's cells are obviously alive as they call out/respond to calls out from other cells.

It's all speculation, but Sephiroth as well does not seem at all happy during Crisis Core. He's happy with his friends, but even then he seems to have a need, drive, want, and/or penchant towards violence. Granted, even the best of the best must practice and keep up their skills... He's ever so serious, indeed even Genesis remarks about this (if my poor memory serves me right; I haven't played the game in a few months.) This unhappiness is quite clear at the beginning of Last Order; please, if anyone tells me they couldn't see unhappiness in the picture of Sephiroth before his last mission...

Sephiroth was prone to snap, in my opinion, it was just a matter of time. I don't believe it was ever just 'one thing' that led towards it either, but a life's worth of culminating pieces to the puzzle that made the once hero named Sephiroth, which then promptly shattered again.

* I just read MakoEye's bit about the Ultimania Omega and what it states about Sephiroth and Jenova. Hmmmmm... Still, I wonder if some of it could be the cells interacting. True, he looks very much in control of himself; as well, I always thought Hojo and Lucrecia had strong wills, so a strong will in Sephiroth would probably be a given. Unless Jenova's messages - well I'm thinking that perhaps what Jenova really is and what she knew perhaps was flooding into him, causing at least some of the superiorority complex he formed. Yes, the records about him being the successful 'cetran' birth Shinra was looking for as well... I just can't believe Jenova wasn't in the mix at all, that's all I can say.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Re: Sephiroth: What the fucked happened?

@Arianna

Yeah, Sephiroth kills all the AVALANCHE infiltrators at Junon rather...viciously. Granted they were killing people too, and he was just doing his job, but we also are shown a shot of Sephiroth before he takes the assignment and apparently he was killing a Behemoth for some reason too because you see him next to its carcass.

So yeah, when you go up against Sephiroth, you better be prepared for a quick, violent death.

And yeah, you can see that Sephiroth has a sense of sadness in his eyes at times when talking with Zack. And when he gets upset, he isolates himself for days.

As for the influence of Jenova, she wasn't dead. She's alive, but in a form of stasis. She's more or less unconscious.

I agree, Sephiroth was very vulnerable and all of the events of BC, CC, etc made it very easy for him to lose his mind and become evil.

 

[looneymoon]

Re: Sephiroth: What the fucked happened?

I'll try to take a stab at it, despite this being all of the being interpretive. I haven't read the scripts for BC, so I maybe wrong on a number of things

Sephiroth's childhood
Would probably be not unlike Cloud's. In fact, I always imagined it as a sort of juxtaposition. Seph is born with little to no emotional ties to his parents. Any interactions he may have had with other children would only exemplify his abnormalities ("Ever since my childhood I could feel it. I was different than other
people&quot. Being created for the specific purpose of becoming a perfect SOLDIER, he would have likely thought himself better than his peers, and possibly even those much older than him. This breeds feeling of scorn, contempt and arrogance from a very young age.

Fastforward to his SOLDIER years
Sephiroth finds a place where he belongs, as his whole life was leading up to being a SOLDIER. He makes his first close relationships in Angeal and Genesis, two characters he can respect as they are of similar calibre to him (though Seph remains at the top). I'd like to mention that from playing CC, it's almost insinuated that Angeal and Genesis have a closer relationship than they do with Sephiroth. Of course, there is Genesis' feelings of inferiority towards Seph. Although they are friends, there seems to be a subtle sense of animosity between them. Of course, these are his only friends, so I assume Seph either doesn't know any better or just doesn't care.
When they defect from ShinRa, Sephiroth gets even more angry and confused. Maybe even a sense of abandonment? In the end, Angeal died and all who is left (Genesis) becomes increasingly antagonistic towards him. Zack is really the only one left for that Sephiroth can even remotely consider a friend.

Nibelheim
Well, we all know what happens here. Sephiroth finds out the "truth" of his origins. He finally finds some sort of explanation and purpose for his whole existance. The influence of Jenova cells, Genesis' manipulation and his own negative conceptions of the world end in Sephiroth going nuts. Already having the ruthless nature of a SOLDIER, it's not too much of a stretch for him to being so controlled to completely unhinged and merciless.

Of course, this is me trying to place it in narrative sense, so it seems less like a WTF moment.

 

[Dawnbreaker]

Re: Sephiroth: What the fucked happened?

Actually, if you really boiled down to it, and applied it to a real person, the kind of crap Sephiroth went through would put him in a mental institution. Friends die, friends defect, parents are no where around (well, they are, but that's only worse), life of isolation, admiration but intense fear, poltiical intrigue, scientific madness, lies, mutations, aliens...

Fuck man, that'd drive anyone nuts. But I'll try to go a bit deeper...

Sephiroth did not have a proper upbringing. This is made fairly clear through the way he acts, what he talks about, and what we are shown. He has no connection to his parents (at least, none he's aware of, and it's probably even worse if he did) and thus no sense of self. He's thrust into a war, make friends with those that either betray his company or die horribly, and constantly is doubting himself.

He's brillaint, too brilliant (isn't that what President Shin-ra said?) and that brilliance is part of what drives him mad. He's powerful physically and mentally, but he's completely and utterly unable to stop the fucked up events happening around him. The little bit of good he sees turns to ashes, and the evil around him is entrenched in everything he knows.

And then, he gets a revelation, albiet a mistaken one. That he's different for a reason. Not to be one of the many friends that have fallen into death or destruction, but rather as one who is strong and powerful enough to take control of his destiny.

It was either fall apart into anguish and insanity or rise above it and enter a different kind of madness-one that drives him to murder and attempted genocide.

It's a tragic story, and while incredulous at points, there are dots that connect the lines where Sephiroth goes from one point to the other.

He's batshit insane, simple.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Re: Sephiroth: What the fucked happened?

Man, this topic is interesting. I regret that I don't have the time to comment on it right now! I'll jump in though, but until then, carry on.

 

[OWA-2]

Re: Sephiroth: What the fucked happened?

I remember we already talked about this, in ACF. And my opinion didn't change.

IMO Sephiroth's madness at Nibelheim, was caused by many factors: The betrayal of his two best friends(Angeal and Genesis), the dead of one of them(Angeal), the fact he didn't really knew why he was fighting for Shinra(the dialogue with Elfe), and finally, the revalation of his existence(that he was a monster, just like the Makonoids).
After all of this, he was depressed, confused, and his mind was weak... And that's when Jenova's instinctual nature kicked-in(obs: Jenova was brain-dead, but she was still alive in a primitive instinctual level).
The Ultimania explains that Jenova have an instinct of destruction and Reunion of its/her cells.
And what Sephiroth did in Nibelheim? He destroyed it, and went after Jenova's body(went to a reunion with her).

So we could say that, during the Nibelheim incident, he was being influenced by Jenova because of his weak state of mind, caused by all the shit that happened to him.

And then, after falling in the Lifestream, he found out the truth, gained the knowledge of the Ancients, merged with Jenova's stinctual nature, and became like, a "new Jenova", or a "new evolution" of it.

That's what I think happened.

 

[Masamune]

Re: Sephiroth: What the fucked happened?

Ah, Sephiroth... Another classic example of 'Badass Decay.'

Fans demand more and more and more of their favourite baddie, until he's no longer a mysterious evil but merely "misunderstood".

 

[Dawnbreaker]

Re: Sephiroth: What the fucked happened?

That's an interesting and valid point. If we study a character too much and try to explain too much they easily and quickly become something very ordinary and dull.

And that would be boring.

 

[ForceStealer]

Re: Sephiroth: What the fucked happened?

[quote author=Masamune link=topic=272.msg6872#msg6872 date=1231514099]
Ah, Sephiroth... Another classic example of 'Badass Decay.'

Fans demand more and more and more of their favourite baddie, until he's no longer a mysterious evil but merely "misunderstood".
[/quote]

Final Fantasy VII doesn't make Sephiroth to be a mysterious evil for very long. You're told he used to be a hero at the very beginning and as early as Kalm you know why he's evil. All his other appearences in the Compilation have added to his character but it didn't REALLY give us any new information as to how he moved from good to evil. FF7 never presented Sephiroth to be mysterious except maybe the very beginning when Barret says "So he's a good guy then?"

Also, I know I, and I don't think many people would ever classify Sephiroth as 'misunderstood'. He's an evil son of a bitch. He IS a tragic villain (as opposed to Kefka or Ultimecia), but he's not 'misunderstood'.

 

[Masamune]

Re: Sephiroth: What the fucked happened?

No one knew anything about Sephiroth in the original game. He was a cold man during Nibelheim who kept himself to himself, with the occasional throwaway line. We never knew who he really was, and what relationships and experiences he had. Hah, even Sephiroth didn't know who he was!


Didn't CC say what shampoo he uses or something equally as stupid? Just so the fangirls can giggle between themselves while Sephiroth slowly loses his manhood.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Re: Sephiroth: What the fucked happened?

I thought it was rather hilarious actually.

You shouldn't take video games so seriously, you know. He has no real manhood *to* lose.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Re: Sephiroth: What the fucked happened?

I think it was a good idea to expand Sephiroth's character and more thins about him in Crisis Core. In FF7, it wasn't bad that Sephiroth was mysterious and unknown considering the circumstances and the fact that Cloud didn't really know him.

However, in Crisis Core Sephiroth is pretty much human and accessible, and your main character is his co-worker, so it wouldn't really make sense for Sephiroth to be some super mysterious entity. Mysterious, yes, but still human.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Re: Sephiroth: What the fucked happened?

I totally agree on that. We've seen enough of Sephiroth as the unreachable, cold, badass god-like villain. It's great seeing the man behind the persona, and how he was before he went nuts.

 

[ForceStealer]

Re: Sephiroth: What the fucked happened?

And the Kalm Flashback, distorted as Cloud's version may have been, definitely showed Sephiroth as a respectable guy. He has godlike power, but he actively converses with Cloud (Zack) in the truck. He asks about Cloud's hometown, he confides in Cloud (Zack) about feeling an odd familiarity about the place, not to mention explaining to him he he felt 'different' when he was younger. What was the mystery? What was wrong with Cloud's head was far more mysterious.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Re: Sephiroth: What the fucked happened?

Well, the mystery (and this isn't criticism) is that we never really saw Sephiroth as a human character consistently. Little snippets of conversation in the span of a few hours of time isn't really exposition of his character. We really didn't see much of him as a villain either, so Crisis Core was refreshing.

 

[Masamune]

Re: Sephiroth: What the fucked happened?

[quote author=Makoeyes987 link=topic=272.msg7145#msg7145 date=1231595448]You shouldn't take video games so seriously, you know.[/quote]

Straight back at ya.


And what MOG said - a few lines from Sephiroth in FFVII hardly equates to character development. We still knew little about the man himself.