Sephiroth: What the fuck happened?

[OWA-2]

Re: Sephiroth: What the fucked happened?

[quote author=The Notorious M.O.G. link=topic=272.msg9410#msg9410 date=1232386351]Yeah, but that assumes that Sephiroth wasn't acting on the power of free will.[/quote]

I always thought he was acting more on his instincts than anything else.
Jenova had an instinctual nature of eradicating the life from a planet, and use it as a vessel to crash in other planets and repeat the proccess.
The majority of Sephiroth's body is composed of J-cells, and after he fell in the Lifestream, he sudenlly wanted to take control of the Lifestream and use the planet as his vessel to travel the universe and find another planet.
Sorry, but it's hard to believe this is just a coincidence.

Obs: I'm not saying he doesn't have free will, just that his/Jenova's instincts, have some influence over him.

 

[Andalegogo]

Re: Sephiroth: What the fucked happened?

When the creators say that Sephiroth has a achieved a new level of existence beyond humanity, I usually take this as meaning that he has left human morals behind. Morals themselves only matter in human society anyway, as other creatures don't have any capacity to distinguish between what is "good" or "bad". There are only wants and needs (of course humans have morals AND instinctive drives to deal with -___-.

I always felt that one of the most significant developments of Sephiroth's "awakening" is the submergng of Jenova's destructive instincts by Sephiroth's human quality of ambition. I'd say that this is a major difference between what Jenova was originally, and what Sephiroth became. While Jenova acted purely on its own destructive instinct, Sephiroth only does it because it is a "glorious" goal that he feels he is uniquely worthy to achieve.

I don't believe Sephiroth is influenced by any of Jenova's instinct. Sephiroth has always thought of himself as being something truly special, and now that he is free to realize his full potential as he sees fit, free of human etiquette and concern, he will do so.

Viewing Sephiroth in this light adds a lot to his character as a villain and connects directly into the proud warrior he was before his fall. Saying he acts only due to Jenova's destructive instincts takes a lot away from him, IMO.

 

[Dawnbreaker]

Re: Sephiroth: What the fucked happened?

I mentioned a problem, and it was resolved. That's how I communicate, and it does get things done, so take it or leave it.

Learn some communication skills then. You're not on staff just to throw your weight around.

Yeah, but that assumes that Sephiroth wasn't acting on the power of free will.

Just because his instinct is to destory doesn't necessarily mean it's beyond his abiltiy to control his instinct. Our instinct is to procreate, but that dosen't mean we can't stop ourselves from doing so. Animals do make choices in what they do, just on a different level of awareness and purpose. Sephiroth's might be on a different level than ours, fueled by the cells in his body to cause destruction and follow his "mother's" path. It dosen't mean he has to, but rather is inclined to.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Re: Sephiroth: What the fucked happened?

Learn some communication skills then. You're not on staff just to throw your weight around.

Too bad if you don't like the way I handle things. My communication skills are good enough; if you want someone to hold hands or something, look elsewhere. If you have further complaint, please take it up in PM.

Just because his instinct is to destory doesn't necessarily mean it's beyond his abiltiy to control his instinct. Our instinct is to procreate, but that dosen't mean we can't stop ourselves from doing so. Animals do make choices in what they do, just on a different level of awareness and purpose. Sephiroth's might be on a different level than ours, fueled by the cells in his body to cause destruction and follow his "mother's" path. It dosen't mean he has to, but rather is inclined to.

That's fair enough, but I dislike any theory that takes away the blame from Sephiroth's own choices.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Re: Sephiroth: What the fucked happened?

Not to derail this topic any further, but let's all try to be nice and respectful here.

Criticism isn't inherently bad, and as staff we should be able to take it respectfully and without indignation.

With that in mind, let's not bite the members or think we're perfect. It's that type of attitude that causes drama and forum madness.

Now, let's continue

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Re: Sephiroth: What the fucked happened?

Well keep in mind, just to set the record straight for myself in front of everyone here; I wasn't referring to Arianna from my position of staff or anything in regards to how she posts or her font or anything; I would have said the exact same thing even if I was a regular old member. I was not criticizing her as a Staff member, because that implies that I would have punished her or something otherwise. Not true!

Fact of the matter is, seeing her posts was like staring at a light bulb, so I told her straight that it makes me flat out skip over her posts, which is a shame because she's an otherwise great member. She was a little miffed at first at how I came across, but the issue was resolved without any further problems.

However I am a pretty blunt person, so while I have, can, and will apologize for any sore feelings or impressions of being a dick, at the same time, I'm not going to go "ARIANNA-CHAN, WILL YOU PLEASE, PLEASE, CHANGE THE COLOR OF YOUR FONT AND SPACE YOUR POSTS, IT HURTS MY EYES SO VERY MUCH." No, I will not mince words. So in that respect, as long as I do my job fairly and efficiently, you gotta just deal with it.

 

[Max Payne]

Re: Sephiroth: What the fucked happened?

Her posts looked fine to me.

It was actually easier for me to read them since they stood out so much from the backdrop.

 

[Dawnbreaker]

Re: Sephiroth: What the fucked happened?

It's irrelevant whether you were doing it as "staff" or not. You're staff so people view your actions and words as representative of the staff. I don't care if it's something you'd do as a normal memeber--as a normal member I'd have called you out on it too.

I'm not asking for you to sweeten your posts til they make people gag, but rather when you have a point to make and need something resolved, you have the courtesy, paritcularly as staff, to point it out AND suggest some sort of resolution. Otherwise you're no better than Felix (staff at the defunct ACF) who bitched at everything yet didn't have a suggestion for anything. Besides the way you said it was snide.

I agree with your point--I actually find the font a bit harsh on the eyes myself. But it would have been incredibly easy to say "Hey, Arianna, the font hurts my eyes. How about changing it? And cutting down the paragraphs would help too."

Mako, I appreciate your points and agree with them. If you wish I'll say no more, but I stand by my comments.

Edit: Oh, well do you have a point there, Dacon. I personally hate bright colors, but it does differeniate from the backdrop indeed.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Re: Sephiroth: What the fucked happened?

Well I agree, yellow isn't a very readable color for me either.

But it's not a lot for you to soften your honesty or direct it differently. It's not asking you to hold hands or be saccharin sweet. Just next time, say something like that in a PM rather than a thread so its not out in the public or anything. That's all.

 

[Dawnbreaker]

Re: Sephiroth: What the fucked happened?

Actually, Mako's got an even better point there. Instead of embarrassing the girl, a quick PM would have sufficed. A quick AND polite PM.

anyways, I think that Sephiroth could have destructive instincts due to his J-Cells, but still have complete control over his choices. He may like killing, but that doesn't mean he can't stop himself from doing it. Having a predisposition towards something does not a slave to this thing make. Pretending that Sephiroth was completely sane is unrealistic, because clearly a guy who goes from cold-blooded military killer to hot-blooded genocidist is missing a few marbles.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Re: Sephiroth: What the fucked happened?

You're right guys, suggestions (seriously) noted! Sorry for any misunderstanding.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Re: Sephiroth: What the fucked happened?

Also, I find Sephiroth interesting because unlike most other fictional individuals with strength outshining their peers, Sephiroth doesn't really seem to like fighting people for the sake of challenge, he seems to just like beating the shit out of things effortlessly.

 

[Arianna]

Re: Sephiroth: What the fucked happened?

Regarding the font issue:

It's water under the bridge. I was pretty upset because I just didn't understand what M.O.G was meaning. Was it the context of my posts or what? Now that I know, I've tried to make appropriate changes. It's okay, I forgive M.O.G; he wasn't trying to insult me.

On-topic:

Well, I like how it (at least in my view) keeps going back to Jenova. Now, I know it's debated who's the real villain of FFVII, but when it comes down to it - it's kind of two-fold.

Sephiroth is so intermingled with Jenova, I do wonder if he'd be considered a separate entity from her or be considered herself reincarnated. If she's still alive, then - if she gained consciousness and regained the cells she could to form what she is - I really question about how she'd interact with him.

Would she consider Sephiroth a child of herself? We know that she's extremely intelligent, which to me says she could make the choice not to destroy, but her instincts are so strong, that she falls to them primarily. In that, would she try to destroy him? I also know that at least (one of?) the Ultimanias spoke about Jenova having no sense to create - but I'm not sure about that, only 'cause one thing every life form has is the desire to procreate. Nature says this so the species will survive.

But then, that does lead to the question (debate?) of whether Jenova is a natural creature, formed by the universe, or one created by a people with the intent solely to kill - perhaps such as a war machine? I'm not sure if the Ultimania(s) speak of this. I could definitely see her 'used' as a war machine... Very interesting that Shinra got just what they wanted in her, at least with Sephiroth (Genesis and Angeal aside for right now.)

As for whether or not Sephiroth liked to kill - I go back to Jenova as well as his training. In fact, I question if he's ever been told, allowed and/or had the thought outside of his training to ever have mercy? But then, in Before Crisis he did go easy/let Elfie (?) go, and in Crisis Core, he kept refusing anything that had to do with Genesis and Angeal's departure from rank. He shows what Vampire Hunter D was saying - control over the situations. After he was forced to go to Nibelheim, I will say what I've thought all along, he totally broke down mentally. For that, I thank not Jenova, but Hojo.

PS: Tell me if the brown is a good text color. If not, I'll change it again - going with grey if I must. *sigh*

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

Re: Sephiroth: What the fucked happened?

That font is much better than the last one if you feel you need a special color.

I doubt Jenova's actual consciousness, unless the meta guides have said she is indeed conscious. So I don't really think she thinks much about Sephiroth, or about anything at all. She just is.

 

[Arianna]

Re: Sephiroth: What the fucked happened?

[quote author=Ravynne link=topic=272.msg13590#msg13590 date=1233590269]I doubt Jenova's actual consciousness, unless the meta guides have said she is indeed conscious. So I don't really think she thinks much about Sephiroth, or about anything at all. She just is.[/quote]

Someone on this board or another (I want to credit MakoEyes987?) stated that Jenova is still alive, just in a stasis - unconscious. I think she has awareness of herself.

I don't think she'd know anything about Sephiroth at this point, so I'll agree with you about not thinking much if at all about him. If she is aware, it's probably she recognizes something of herself inside of him.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Re: Sephiroth: What the fucked happened?

She had some consciousness. When Sephiroth took her into the Lifestream, she tried to take over Sephiroth but Sephiroth took her over.

And then she has consciousness up to the point that she's aware that Sephiroth is her master and she must obey him. She's mostly a puppet to Sephiroth and doesn't function outside of doing what he commands.

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

Re: Sephiroth: What the fucked happened?

She had some consciousness. When Sephiroth took her into the Lifestream, she tried to take over Sephiroth but Sephiroth took her over.

That's not necessarily consciousness, though.

Even still, does she have her own thoughts and opinions? This is what I doubt.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Re: Sephiroth: What the fucked happened?

She's obviously of the thought that Cloud's a puppet and of the opinion that he should fulfill his mission of giving the Black Materia to Sephiroth.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Re: Sephiroth: What the fucked happened?

Always wanted more on Jenova.
She almost rbought the Cetra to the brink of extinction and then some prettyboy was all like "bite me, bitch" and that was it ;___;

 

[Dawnbreaker]

Re: Sephiroth: What the fucked happened?

Yeah, Jenova's really left unexplained aside from a few things here and there. We really don't understand the concept of her all that well. We know she travelled from planet to planet and such, and likes to fall into ewwwy messes, but other than that, not a whole lot aside from Sephiroth using her after becoming her master. Will she one day fight back to claim control? Does she have any sort of intelligent thought or is all strictly instincal?

Lots of unanswered questions there.

 

[OWA-2]

Re: Sephiroth: What the fucked happened?

[quote author=M.I.L.F. link=topic=272.msg16601#msg16601 date=1234290711]
Yeah, Jenova's really left unexplained aside from a few things here and there. We really don't understand the concept of her all that well. We know she travelled from planet to planet and such, and likes to fall into ewwwy messes, but other than that, not a whole lot aside from Sephiroth using her after becoming her master. Will she one day fight back to claim control? Does she have any sort of intelligent thought or is all strictly instincal?

Lots of unanswered questions there.[/quote]

Jenova was pretty smart, before being brain-dead. Ifalna said that to Gast IIRC.

 

[Cthulhu]

Re: Sephiroth: What the fucked happened?

I'm sure they'd plot-twist her back into sense, it would be a shame to let go of a potentially all-powerfuller-than-Seph character.

The worst thing they could do however is have Clord and Seph and everyone else ally against Jen though, that would be terribly lame and done over nine thousaaand times before, in the negative sense of the term.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Re: Sephiroth: What the fucked happened?

Jenova's already dead.

How would they bring her back? And how is she stronger than Sephiroth if she's been dominated by Sephiroth?

 

[Tetsujin]

Re: Sephiroth: What the fucked happened?

Jenova was pretty strong but I think her true strength was deceiving everyone with shape-shifting powahz and that other crap.

 

[OWA-2]

Re: Sephiroth: What the fucked happened?

I think they will focus on the special ability of Genesis' genes(mentioned in the Ultimania), instead of focusing on Jenova's cells again.