Shinra's Rocket Plan

[ForceStealer]

Are there any of the materials about FF7 (or maybe NPC's, X's thread?) that suggested that Shinra's plan to ram Huge Materia into Meteor would have worked had AVALANCHE not gotten all tree-hugger on them? Although they never really showed us any proof, it was implied that Huge Materia are incredibly powerful. So four of them, in conjunction with the enormous explosive they obviously put on that rocket with them...well, it wasn't really a particularly bad idea.

Now yes, I know, if you leave the Materia in the rocket, the scene remains the same. But the party still wonders if it would have worked. And really, even if you try to let Shinra have the materia, the most they can have is the one from Nibelheim.

Corel: You can lose the materia if you crash the train, and I dunno what happens to it in that case, but Shinra doesn't get it. When you open the container on the rocket and take the materia, Corel's isn't in there even if you crash the train.
Junon: You may not receive it if you forget to salvage it from the sunken submarine, but Shinra doesn't get it. (Granted, I haven't ever failed the Submarine minigame, can they get away with it?)
Fort Condor: You can't not get it.

So, you can only let Shinra use one (perhaps two) of the 4 Huge Materia. Is there any chance the plan might have worked? The game obviously intends for you to retrieve all of it, and even if no materia in it at all, the bomb on the rocket causes pretty substantial damage to Meteor.

There's also the chance that it would blow up Meteor, but that it wouldn't work for the same reason you always hear that we couldn't just nuke a meteor, the same amount of mass would head for us, just in a cloud of little pieces.

Thoughts?

 

[Shademp]

First of all, you can fail the Submarine mission in a way that the Shinra get the Huge Materia. Just either let the timer run out or have your own submarine destroyed.

And yes, you can lose the Huge Materia at Fort Condor. Just lose the battle, and everyone (except you) will die basically

The problem is that no scenario of a certain number of Huge Materia being taken from Shinra is canon. Even so, I imagine that even if they used all the Huge Materia Meteor would be around.
Meteor consists of many layers; as highly suggested by the fmvs following its damage, and the painting of it in the Ancient Temple. Meteor is sturdy. The best way to destroy it would be to bury the materia deeply into Meteor (ala Armageddon) and 'use it' from there. Don't think they can do that.

I think though that using all Huge Materia, versus only a few, would slow down Meteor more than the latter. So, yeah... Cloud and his friends are tree huggers like you said.

 

[ForceStealer]

First of all, you can fail the Submarine mission in a way that the Shinra get the Huge Materia. Just either let the timer run out or have your own submarine destroyed.

...If your sub is destroyed...can you still use it?

And yes, you can lose the Huge Materia at Fort Condor. Just lose the battle, and everyone (except you) will die basically

No, if you lose the battle (which I usually do because its cheaper), you just fight a super-easy boss. Were you to lose to that boss, I'm pretty sure you just game over.

And I've always gathered that the "canon" is that the team recovered all the Huge Materia.

 

[Shademp]

...If your sub is destroyed...can you still use it?



No, if you lose the battle (which I usually do because its cheaper), you just fight a super-easy boss. Were you to lose to that boss, I'm pretty sure you just game over.

1) If your grey sub is destroyed, you can retrieve a red one from Junon. You know that place the dog guards, where you get to by taking the elevator down to the Underwater Reactor? If the grey sub is destroyed, that is where you go to get the red one instead.

2) If you lose to the super-easy boss, it is not game over. Believe me, I've done it countless times during my research with the game's script. Try it yourself, it's quite interesting.

 

[Smaddy]

Seems to me that if they rammed it with the 4 Materia, it wouldn't matter. In the Meteor FMV, you see how quickly it recomposes itself.

And I don't claim to be a scientist of any type, but even *if* they demolished Meteor, wouldn't it be still bad if chunks of it came crashing down on the planet? Granted, it wouldn't be as devastating as a whole Meteor, but still destructive directly or indirectly (i.e. the theory that the dinosaurs were wiped out due to lasting environmental changes from a meteor crashing to Earth).

And it's definitely 'canon' to get all four of the Huge Materia. How else would you get Neo Bahamut (and thus, the Master Summon materia)?

You can't permanently lose the Submarine by losing the battle- you have to have a Sub to get the Key to the Ancients. Without it, the story would not progress. And are you forced to visit the Gelnika? I forget.

 

[Shademp]

You mean "How else would they get the Bahamut ZERO"? The answer is, they dig it up in Bone Village. http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/file/197341/57001

And I don't see where you get the impression ForceStealer that those four Huge Materias are canonically retrieved. We haven't even heard word as to whether or not North Corel was destroyed by a ramming train or not, even though intuitively we'd like to assume that North Corel is just fine (which it will be if you either don't catch up to the coal train, or if you stop the train).

 

[ForceStealer]

1) If your grey sub is destroyed, you can retrieve a red one from Junon. You know that place the dog guards, where you get to by taking the elevator down to the Underwater Reactor? If the grey sub is destroyed, that is where you go to get the red one instead.

That's right, I forgot about that, is it red on the overworld map, too?

2) If you lose to the super-easy boss, it is not game over. Believe me, I've done it countless times during my research with the game's script. Try it yourself, it's quite interesting.

huh...well howabout that, lol.

All right, so scratch that, apparently you can let Shinra get all of the materia except Corel's. (although, if you miss the others, do you still get them out of the rocket?)

Regardless, the amount of the materia changes nothing in the damage to Meteor. So the question becomes, is that simply because the Huge Materia make no difference, or because you're supposed to get them?

 

[Shademp]

I don't have anything to add to the actual question, but I can give some more info on the game mechanics before I leave.

Shinra gets the Huge Materia at North Corel, story-wise, if you simply don't catch up to the coal train. North Corel is not destroyed in this scenario, but you still lose.

Game-wise, having the Rocket HM be the only one retrieved by Cloud means you only get one HM. You don't magically get the ones you missed in North Corel, Fort Condor and the Underwater Reactor. Story-wise this may not make much sense, but meh.

Edit: Yes, the red sub is red on the overworld map too. And even if you use a cheat to get the red sub after you already have the grey one, you will ONLY have the grey submarine. Could be some cheat out there to fool the game and actually have two subs, but I've never tried it.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

I would submit that it's a possibility that they MAY have been able to destroy it - here's why:

• Materia is compressed / crystallized Lifestream, and the huge materia are an even larger composition of that.
• Meteor is stopped by Holy, but destroyed by the planet using the Lifestream as a weapon against it.
• Depending on how the explosion was generated, it may have managed to cause some substantial damage to the Meteor, although it would have still had fallout, and tiny meteorites, rather than essentially being evaporated like the Lifestream accomplished.


X

 

[ForceStealer]

Game-wise, having the Rocket HM be the only one retrieved by Cloud means you only get one HM. You don't magically get the ones you missed in North Corel, Fort Condor and the Underwater Reactor. Story-wise this may not make much sense, but meh.

Exactly, there would be nothing 'magical' about it. If Shinra had the other materia, where the hell did they put them?

And I don't see where you get the impression ForceStealer that those four Huge Materias are canonically retrieved. We haven't even heard word as to whether or not North Corel was destroyed by a ramming train or not, even though intuitively we'd like to assume that North Corel is just fine (which it will be if you either don't catch up to the coal train, or if you stop the train).

Well, I may not be right, but I did get the impression that the team does 'succeed' in the canon at their various endeavors (such as in Corel) except for ones that you cannot succeed at (saving Sector 7, for example).

For example, you were by no means required to get Vincent or Yuffie. Indeed, you could technically have gone through the entire game with no knowledge of their existence, but clearly the canon says you did.
Furthermore, it is now canon that Vincent morphed into Chaos in front of Hojo on the Sister Ray. Not only was it optional to have Vincent at all, nothing forced you to even have Vincent in your party, much less would have had to jump through the necessary hoops to have Chaos so early.

Given that, and the fact that immediately after the plan fails the party wonders if they did the right thing [in taking the materia], I got the impression that they canonically retrieved it.
Note however, the script argument could work against me here, too. I always thought it was odd how Barret says "What a bust, I kinda hoped it'd work." Well why the hell would it have worked if you took the materia?! So maybe you canonically didn't get all of them, or Barret was just being hopeful that the bomb may have been sufficient.


As for the main topic, yeah X, as Shademp suggested, maybe the only way would have been to equip the No. 26 with something that would allow it to burrow into Meteor before exploding. Also, yeah fallout and smaller meteors could still be devastating, but if an explosion were enough to pulverize it into small enough pieces, perhaps...

 

[Dark and Divine]

As for the main topic, yeah X, as Shademp suggested, maybe the only way would have been to equip the No. 26 with something that would allow it to burrow into Meteor before exploding. Also, yeah fallout and smaller meteors could still be devastating, but if an explosion were enough to pulverize it into small enough pieces, perhaps...

Wouldn't the magical force that pulls Meteor into the Planet prevent its destruction, to an extent?

After the rocket hits Meteor, the bits that were separated from the main body were still linked to it through those tendrils of blue energy.

So, my guess is, even if Meteor was destroyed by the rocket, that energy would keeps the pieces close enough to each other. And Meteor's core seems made to be a lot more resistant than the outer shell.

 

[Smaddy]

For example, you were by no means required to get Vincent or Yuffie. Indeed, you could technically have gone through the entire game with no knowledge of their existence, but clearly the canon says you did.
Furthermore, it is now canon that Vincent morphed into Chaos in front of Hojo on the Sister Ray. Not only was it optional to have Vincent at all, nothing forced you to even have Vincent in your party, much less would have had to jump through the necessary hoops to have Chaos so early.

Given that, and the fact that immediately after the plan fails the party wonders if they did the right thing [in taking the materia], I got the impression that they canonically retrieved it.
Note however, the script argument could work against me here, too. I always thought it was odd how Barret says "What a bust, I kinda hoped it'd work." Well why the hell would it have worked if you took the materia?! So maybe you canonically didn't get all of them, or Barret was just being hopeful that the bomb may have been sufficient.


As for the main topic, yeah X, as Shademp suggested, maybe the only way would have been to equip the No. 26 with something that would allow it to burrow into Meteor before exploding. Also, yeah fallout and smaller meteors could still be devastating, but if an explosion were enough to pulverize it into small enough pieces, perhaps...

Vincent's part in FF7, I feel was weirdly done, and the Compilation just made it even worse. Personally, I think it should've been where if you have him, he comes along with you to fight Hojo no matter what (or even steps in at the beginning/end of battle). It would be kind of like the equal to the Wutai/Materia episode for Yuffie. Wishful thinking, I know.

Barret's quote, I had always assumed he meant he hoped it would have worked, even without the Materia.

And maybe if something burrowed into Meteor and exploded it from inside like that, it might work. But again, it regenerates itself when the rocket crashes into it anyway. It might be one of those things that, once the Meteor is summoned, it's going to come crashing down no matter what. I need to go back and re-read some things though, before I go making more statements.

 

[ForceStealer]

Well it doesn't regenerate, but yes, it holds itself together. Dark, yes, but as X pointed out, it was Lifestream that stopped Meteor and what are Huge Materia but crystallized, concentrated Lifestream?

 

[Dark and Divine]

But we can't compare the Huge Materia with the large amount of Lifestream used to destroy Meteor.

That portion of Lifestream probably had the power comparable to hundreds of Huge Materia.

 

[ForceStealer]

Probably, but the thing was also right against the Planet at that point, I would imagine that it would have been easier to fend off from farther away but I don't really have a basis for that. It does raise the question of whether Holy would have had a different effect if activated with Meteor was originally cast.

Also, that huge amount of Lifestream was probably needed to do...whatever it did to Meteor - apparently cause it to cease to exist. In space all they needed to do was blow it to sufficiently small bits.

 

[Smaddy]

Well it doesn't regenerate, but yes, it holds itself together. Dark, yes, but as X pointed out, it was Lifestream that stopped Meteor and what are Huge Materia but crystallized, concentrated Lifestream?

Poor word choice on my part, I meant it pulls itself back together.

So it's thought that Holy had no important effect on Meteor?

I'm just thinking, it's a Meteor affected by magic. So does that 'magic' aspect of it affect change anything?

And if Materia explodes or shatters... what happens? Can it shatter or explode? Materia might be concentrated, crystallized Lifestream, but would it act similar to Lifestream? Diamonds are concentrated, crystallized carbon, but do those act like carbon would?

Just playing devil's advocate and looking into different theories, here.

 

[ForceStealer]

So am I, I don't actually think the plan could have worked, but working under the assumption that it may have for discussion.

So it's thought that Holy had no important effect on Meteor?

Not a favorable one, at least.

As for materia exploding, it must do something, otherwise why would Shinra have bothered? If I had to guess, I would say shattering a Fire materia would result in a fiery explosion relative to the materia's level?

 

[Landarma]

Don't know how big that meteor is, but its shape suggests it's large enough to be rounded by its gravity(need to check my memory. I haven't touched FF7 for long time...), at least once. I don't think the Rocket Plan would work anyway......

 

[ForceStealer]

According to the description of the spell it's a "planetoid" that was wandering the cosmos and the spell snatches it and pulls it toward the planet.

 

[Dark and Divine]

It's more or less the size of the moon.

 

[Landarma]

According to the description of the spell it's a "planetoid" that was wandering the cosmos and the spell snatches it and pulls it toward the planet.

Real world example, currently known(classified) smallest dwarf planet is Ceres, and its radius is about 470~480km. You know what it can do when such body hits on earth-like planet.

'I don't think Rocket Plan would work anyway' - If the meteor is truly planetoid(as its shape suggets), I don't think you can smash it to bits even with most powerful weapon we have.

 

[Smaddy]

I don't think the rocket plan would have ever worked. I think it was just a last-ditch effort to do something rather than just lay down and accept death from a catastrophic meteor.

Could you imagine if they succeeded though?
"The World Is Saved! Courtesy of Shin-Ra Power Company, Inc.!"

 

[Dark and Divine]

If the plan was sucessful and Meteor was destroyed, what would prevent Sephiroth to summon another Meteor?

Or even maybe use the Black Materia to fuse the remains of the original Meteor to create another one?

 

[Cat Rage Room]

If the plan was sucessful and Meteor was destroyed, what would prevent Sephiroth to summon another Meteor?

Or even maybe use the Black Materia to fuse the remains of the original Meteor to create another one?

Somehow I don't think Sephiroth is that baller. He couldn't even use the spell in the first place under his own power.

 

[Landarma]

I don't think the rocket plan would have ever worked. I think it was just a last-ditch effort to do something rather than just lay down and accept death from a catastrophic meteor.

Could you imagine if they succeeded though?
"The World Is Saved! Courtesy of Shin-Ra Power Company, Inc.!"

I agree. They had no time(7 days!? Doh....), and yet they needed to do something.

However, I can't imagine their success. The only thing I can imagine is... post-apocalyptic ruins after bombardment of thousands of meteor fragments.