LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
It's not that I disbelieve the FFX connection, I just don't like it. Are we now meant to suppose that the Shinra family are aliens too? Come on. It's not even necessary to the story. It adds zero.
SPOILERS Split-off FFVII/FFX Connection Discussion
- Thread starter LicoriceAllsorts
- Start date
oty
Pro Adventurer
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- ex-soldier boy
The Shinra FF-X picture is much more likely to be just an easter egg. Didnt they confirm that theory was wrong like years ago? Or maybe I'm thinking of FFVIII or something.
And how it being the 5th entry somehow makes it a sequel? I dont think there is a rule that Compilation titles can only be a prequel or a sequel
And how it being the 5th entry somehow makes it a sequel? I dont think there is a rule that Compilation titles can only be a prequel or a sequel
The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
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- TresDias
Kitase has confirmed it in like three Interviews in the past few years:
- https://kotaku.com/is-squall-really-dead-final-fantasy-producer-addresses-1800007113
- (4:10)
Ite
Save your valediction (she/her)
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LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
That's a circular argument.
But I'm pretty sure you jest.
But I'm pretty sure you jest.
The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
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- TresDias
Sometimes lore is worthwhile for its own sake, or it builds up the setting without necessarily tying directly into the narrative. There's actually quite a lot of that in FF (occasionally to its detriment, I admit).
Though I personally feel this particular bit of worldbuilding creates a lot of story opportunities. @Shademp and I had a blast exploring thematic ramifications of it several years ago in our "For All Gaia's Children" incomplete game sequel/elaborate fanfic. I think it was actually Shad who wrote this amazing line for Reeve in a journal entry(?) that went something to the effect of "If souls from the Lifestreams of two worlds can find harmony, then surely there is hope for us to be reconciled with our planet."
Chills, y'all. I still gots them.
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
If it works for you then it works for you. I personally hate the thought that the Shinra family came from another planet and brought technology that enabled them to take over the world. It's boring. It's in the same league as that trope when all the characters turn out to be related to each other. Like in Star Wars: it would have been so much more interesting if Rey's parents had been random nobodies. But nooooo....
ForceStealer
Double Growth
Yep. As I've said I find it to be perfectly enjoyable as an Easter Egg (in both X-2 and VIIR); as a fun-to-toy-with little idea, highlighting the parallels between the concepts of the Lifestream and the Farplane. And a perfectly fun idea to run with for a fanmade sequel game.
But as an absolutely historical fact about the world? Stupid. First of all, when was this supposed to have happened? Are all the humans in VII Spiran aliens and the Cetra were the only indigenous people? Or is it supposed to be that Shinra just arrived like 100 years ago on a spacecraft that no one noticed and yet the company can barely get an orbital rocket off the ground after the founder came on an interstellar ship less than a century before?
But as an absolutely historical fact about the world? Stupid. First of all, when was this supposed to have happened? Are all the humans in VII Spiran aliens and the Cetra were the only indigenous people? Or is it supposed to be that Shinra just arrived like 100 years ago on a spacecraft that no one noticed and yet the company can barely get an orbital rocket off the ground after the founder came on an interstellar ship less than a century before?
The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
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I definitely feel you on Rey, and I get that sentiment about "bringing technology that enabled them to take over the world." If I thought that's what had happened, I would likely feel the same way.
Going off
what we know of the history of FFVII's world, though, I see it more as they brought An Idea (one among many ideas), and more importantly: they brought unmatched ambition (as well as an apparent hereditary talent for engineering). Such that two thousand years after Jenova effectively sent civilization back to zero, their family was naturally -- inevitably even -- the cream that rose to the top.
When one young-ish man with the last name of Shinra finally dusted off that old family folder of ideas that never quite took shape and took a crack at "a city that never sleeps" from an angle that none of his forebears had ... well, it was a success story that could have inspired a generation. You know, if not for the guy being a callous, dangerously greedy motherfucker.
When one young-ish man with the last name of Shinra finally dusted off that old family folder of ideas that never quite took shape and took a crack at "a city that never sleeps" from an angle that none of his forebears had ... well, it was a success story that could have inspired a generation. You know, if not for the guy being a callous, dangerously greedy motherfucker.
Yeah, for me, it works. It just feels right that this should be the story of the lineage that resulted in Rufus.
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
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- Smooth Criminal
Considering there was an interstellar catastrophe that nearly wiped out all life and saw the extinction of a major forebearer of the human race, the complete and total loss of technology meant to allow space travel is nothing even close to a plot hole.
There doesn't need to be a definitive time frame for it to happen. It's ancient. All we know, is that the ancestors of the Shinra company descend from the Al Bhed. And the inspiration and motivation to extract spirit energy from the planet, was ironically an idea spawned from a little bastard child in a mask, coincidentally named Shinra who seemingly was able to survive long enough into adult hood to help bring this dream to reality.
How he did it is anyone's guess but seeing as how he experimented with merging himself with fiend energy, I wouldn't be surprised if he extended his life that way as well.
There doesn't need to be a definitive time frame for it to happen. It's ancient. All we know, is that the ancestors of the Shinra company descend from the Al Bhed. And the inspiration and motivation to extract spirit energy from the planet, was ironically an idea spawned from a little bastard child in a mask, coincidentally named Shinra who seemingly was able to survive long enough into adult hood to help bring this dream to reality.
How he did it is anyone's guess but seeing as how he experimented with merging himself with fiend energy, I wouldn't be surprised if he extended his life that way as well.
ForceStealer
Double Growth
So your position is that they arrive before even Jenova. That even the Cetra were Spiran aliens? Why would a bunch of Al Bhed been so communal with nature?
Also what you're saying is nothing like a plothole is not the scenario I suggested...
Also what you're saying is nothing like a plothole is not the scenario I suggested...
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LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
So basically all of the planet's problems were foisted on it by outsiders? The Shinra family are, in fact, alien lifeforms, like Jenova? I mean, to some extent that then justifies their position at the top of the totem pole: they're simply a superior form of entity.
I just like it better when humans do this shit to themselves.
To me it doesn't make any sense at all than a alien lifeform's spirit energy could be absorbed into the Planet's lifestream. Isn't it the case that Jenova's cannot be absorbed? She's a foreign body that can only be walled off, like a wasp gall on a plant.
I just like it better when humans do this shit to themselves.
To me it doesn't make any sense at all than a alien lifeform's spirit energy could be absorbed into the Planet's lifestream. Isn't it the case that Jenova's cannot be absorbed? She's a foreign body that can only be walled off, like a wasp gall on a plant.
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ForceStealer
Double Growth
Which is exactly what I think it should be treated as. A fun inside joke.
It's like saying the Lindblum airship in XIII isn't a reference to FFIX, but is actually the city of Lindblum from Gaia converted into a ship, wrenched from the ground, and then went to Pulse for...some reason. Or that Beatrix doesn't just have a move called Climhazzard as a nod to VII, but that Cloud taught her the move in his later planet-hopping travels. In fact he then became very involved Lindblum's conversion and came to be ancestor of Cid Raines
Makoeyes987
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Noooooooo.
The Cetra have nothing to do whatsoever with Spira. The connection Al Bhed have to FFVII's world is through the Shinra dynasty and their company. I don't believe there's anything tying them to the indigenous people of the planet at all.
This is like the only place I have ever seen such resistance to the idea of the FFX-FFVII connection. It really amuses and surprises me.
I really don't see the point or issue here. What does it matter if "outsiders" or whatever thrusted problems onto it? It literally changes nothing. The problems of using Mako energy don't magically change if the Shinra company were some randoms from a backwater corner of the planet or randoms from a backwater corner of the cosmos. The societal and environmental issues the Shinra Company perform are their own and the planet's.
They are human. Al Bhed are human, so I don't know what you mean, they're no more "alien" than the Cetra are.
That'd make no sense because there's nothing linking those two locations together than a name, and attack name sharing is nothing new in Final Fantasy. There's a lot linking Shinra to the Al Bhed, Spira and it all begins with the little genius monster wearing a mask next to President Shinra.
This is beyond an Easter Egg. Kitase has confirmed this link 3 separate times along with Nojima. They're not just making a joke, they're linking their 2 most popular FF stories in a thematic and lore based way.
The Cetra have nothing to do whatsoever with Spira. The connection Al Bhed have to FFVII's world is through the Shinra dynasty and their company. I don't believe there's anything tying them to the indigenous people of the planet at all.
This is like the only place I have ever seen such resistance to the idea of the FFX-FFVII connection. It really amuses and surprises me.
I really don't see the point or issue here. What does it matter if "outsiders" or whatever thrusted problems onto it? It literally changes nothing. The problems of using Mako energy don't magically change if the Shinra company were some randoms from a backwater corner of the planet or randoms from a backwater corner of the cosmos. The societal and environmental issues the Shinra Company perform are their own and the planet's.
They are human. Al Bhed are human, so I don't know what you mean, they're no more "alien" than the Cetra are.
Which is exactly what I think it should be treated as. A fun inside joke.
It's like saying the Lindblum airship in XIII isn't a reference to FFIX, but is actually the city of Lindblum from Gaia converted into a ship, wrenched from the ground, and then went to Pulse for...some reason. Or that Beatrix doesn't just have a move called Climhazzard as a nod to VII, but that Cloud taught her the move in his later planet-hopping travels. In fact he then became very involved Lindblum's conversion and came to be ancestor of Cid Raines
That'd make no sense because there's nothing linking those two locations together than a name, and attack name sharing is nothing new in Final Fantasy. There's a lot linking Shinra to the Al Bhed, Spira and it all begins with the little genius monster wearing a mask next to President Shinra.
This is beyond an Easter Egg. Kitase has confirmed this link 3 separate times along with Nojima. They're not just making a joke, they're linking their 2 most popular FF stories in a thematic and lore based way.
The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
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- TresDias
Yes, precisely.
Force said:
No, I'd expect they're still what we've always been told (i.e. the planet's native children).
Well, I'd still see it as humans doing it to themselves. We know that some of the Cetra gave up their way of life for an easier, more comfortable path, which they could have had presented to them by these alien arrivals. They could have ran into an existential crisis down the road with or without Jenova, the same as (paraphrasing Nojima here) Cloud and Tifa post-FFVII would have had relationship issues to work on with or without Geostigma.
I'll be honest in that I've never understood why so many fans find this overly complicated. To me you just ... plug in the Spira information into what we knew before. Plug 'n' play.
Shake 'n' bake. So when we get presented with a mysterious ancient airship resembling Al Bhed airship designs in the same pre-history that included the Cetra culture that lived in communion with nature, we just reconcile them in the most direct way.
ForceStealer
Double Growth
What? They are from another planet. They are extraterrestrials. That's what alien means in this context.
So what are the humans on the Planet? Descended from the Cetra or the Al Bhed? When did the Al Bhed arrive? Have they been there since the Cetra's time, or only long enough for X-2!Shinra's to be a normal grandfather to Rufus? If that's the case I do want to know where their interstellar ( or at least interplanetary if you want to say it's the same solar system I guess) technology went. Why don't President Shinra and Rufus have swirly irises?
If X-2!Shinra is supposed to be a thousands-year-old Unsent, why do any of the Shinras die when the Planet doesn't practice the Sending? Can an Unsent really reproduce? That seems dubious to me.
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
So maybe President Shinra's real purpose with the space program was to escape from the planet once he's sucked it dry and find another??
(I never liked FFX as a game, it's my least favourite, so I don't like it being hitched to FFVII in this way. But that's a personal thing).
(I never liked FFX as a game, it's my least favourite, so I don't like it being hitched to FFVII in this way. But that's a personal thing).
Odysseus
Ninja Potato
- AKA
- Ody
I don't think its complicated so much as I think its stupid and unnecessary. If the Spirans are the "non-Cetran" people that have taken over the Planet, then suddenly VII is retroactively a story about rampant colonialism, the destruction of culture, and the genocide of the native people. That's all well and good to base a story around, but it feels weird and unneeded to be thrust upon the already thematically loaded story VII already had.
ForceStealer
Double Growth
I love FFX, so that's definitely not my issue
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
In Sci-Fi stories like FFVII, the human species can exist on numerous planets with numerous unique variances. They're human, simply derivatives of homo sapiens. Rikku's anatomy is the same as Cloud and Tifa's barring her unique iris coloration.
Nothing about the Spira connection implies humans on FFVII's world came from Spira. It just explains the origins of the Shinra Company and the technology to extract Mako energy. It came from the technology salvaged from Vegnagun.
When the Al Bhed came to the FFVII world is a mystery but it presumably would have been before the calamity to properly erase the history and knowledge of space travel and justify the lack of awareness of their extraterrestrial origin. As for why they Shinra don't have swirly irises, it would presumably be due to the fact it's a recessive trait upon them intermingling and coupling with humans who aren't Al Bhed.
They do retain their penchant for blond hair however. Kinda strange how all the Shinra members have blond hair just like another race of people who love technology and developed tech to extract spirit energy from a planet
FFVII has always been about Colonialism.
The war with Wutai.
The taking over of towns to install Mako Reactors.
The destruction of said towns when things don't go Shinra's way.
Shinra killing the last of the Cetra.
This is so on brand it hurts and I wouldn't be surprised if this was the reason they made the connection in the first place.
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The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
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- TresDias
I was gonna say it with less italics, but yeah, I also thought colonialism and cultural appropriation were always FFVII themes.
ForceStealer
Double Growth
This is madness. They're aliens. At best they can be an example of convergent evolution. But they cannot be the same species.
When the Al Bhed came to the FFVII world is a mystery but it presumably would have been before the calamity to properly erase the history and knowledge of space travel and justify the lack of awareness of their extraterrestrial origin. As for why they Shinra don't have swirly irises, it would presumably be due to the fact it's a recessive trait upon them intermingling and coupling with humans who aren't Al Bhed.
They do retain their penchant for blond hair however. Kinda strange how all the Shinra members have blond hair just like another race of people who love technology and developed tech to extract spirit energy from a planet
So the Al Bhed have been on the Planet for over 2,000 years. Coexisted with the Cetra though the Cetra make no mention of them, and then intermixed with the Cetra or the Cetra's descendants enough to lose a swirly iris but not a 100% incidence rate of blond hair. Meanwhile, such a mixture on Spira resulted in heterochromia, one swirly-eye and one not, and BROWN hair. Then they just chilled out for 2,000 years, still maintaining that blond hair line, and not making any progress on mako tech despite the fact that X-2!Shinra was clearly around for this entire stretch of time. Someone finally sent him in the last 40 years I guess?
And I know that the FF series is rife with contrivances in service to a plot, but why would you add this many to a story that already has enough of its own? Especially when it wouldn't be in service to anything outside an Always Sunny Charlie "IT'S ALL CONNECTED" idea.
Odysseus
Ninja Potato
- AKA
- Ody
Okay, that's true, sorry.
Still, having a family of extra terrestrials be responsible for all the world's problems is kind of stupid. No Spirans means no Shinra, the Ancients would have thrived and the scourge of Mako technology would never have been realized. Its not humans that are a danger to the Planet, its outside alien invaders! No different from Jenova. That seems incredibly thematically tone deaf from what VII was going for.