SPOILERS Split-off FFVII/FFX Connection Discussion

[Makoeyes987]

Life's funny like that

I seriously don't see the difference between the Shinra company coming from Junon or Spira, it's the same thing. The element of interstellar travel changes nothing about the issues of greed, environmental destruction and corporate takeover except on a lore-fantasy level.

Hell, the planet's main problems are already extraterrestrial in origin, or are we just gonna ignore the hellspawn of the eye-boob alien that shape shifts and eats people?

This is madness. They're aliens. At best they can be an example of convergent evolution. But they cannot be the same species.

They're alien in the sense that they come from outside the planet, but they are literally the same species. This is some Gundam stuff goin' on here.

Just because they come from space doesn't make them less human ya know

Do you hate the colonies too?!

So the Al Bhed have been on the Planet for over 2,000 years. Coexisted with the Cetra though the Cetra make no mention of them, and then intermixed with the Cetra or the Cetra's descendants enough to lose a swirly iris but not a 100% incidence rate of blond hair. Meanwhile, such a mixture on Spira resulted in heterochromia, one swirly-eye and one not, and BROWN hair. Then they just chilled out for 2,000 years, still maintaining that blond hair line, and not making any progress on mako tech despite the fact that X-2!Shinra was clearly around for this entire stretch of time. Someone finally sent him in the last 40 years I guess?

What, can Al Bhed not co-exist with folks now?? I seriously don't see what the huge plot hole is here. It's extraordinary, it's fantastical but so is an alien monster arriving on a meteorite that went on a frenzy and systematically wiped out an advanced magically adept race through sheer fury and homicidal ambition. The Al Bhed being co-inhabitants of the planet is small potatoes comparatively. At least they presumably arrived on a ship.

Yuna was half-Al Bhed. Presumably, the Al Bhed genes within the Shinra family would have been so diluted after years of genetically mingling with the people of FFVII's world (it'd be so much easier to just call this planet Gaia, sigh) that the spiral irises have completely recessed.

How that little snot-nosed brat survived so long is a mystery but again. It's not that hard to believe, given the fact he was able to transmogrify his still living flesh by absorbing pyreflies of Ultima and Omega Weapon and become a fiend that was so strong and powerful, Yuna and co had to beat the shit out of him. He admitted to experimenting with pyreflies to strengthen himself, who's to say he didn't finally master it and somehow manage to extend his life beyond mortal means?

And I know that the FF series is rife with contrivances in service to a plot, but why would you add this many to a story that already has enough of its own? Especially when it wouldn't be in service to anything outside an Always Sunny Charlie "IT'S ALL CONNECTED" idea.

How is this a contrivance? The fantasy elements, lore and settings of FFX and FFVII fit hand-in-glove. If this was a connection to say, FFIV's world, or FFXII's world, I could see the confusion but FFX and FFVII's world settings have been pointed out as being eerily similar. The only game that has more in common with FFVII is FFIX. I don't see how any of this is a "contrivance." Unless someone somehow thinks just two different worlds inhabiting the same universe is a contrivance but then how can that even be? What's wrong with connection? Like, I've never understood the resistance here to this very apparent idea.

 

[ForceStealer]

Life's funny like that :monter:

I seriously don't see the difference between the Shinra company coming from Junon or Spira, it's the same thing. The element of interstellar travel changes nothing except on a lore level.

Or, instead of having to handwave all of that. It could just be what it looked like from the beginning - an easter egg.

Hell, the planet's main problems are already extraterrestrial in origin, or are we just gonna ignore the hellspawn of the eye-boob alien that shape shifts and eats people?

The shape-shifting eye-boob alien was defeated and solved. It only reemerged as a problem when these apparently-other-aliens dug her up.

 

[Roger]

Shinra Sr. and Rufus don't HAVE to be genetically related to Shinra (X-2) you know, he can just be an Unsent that married a woman who had a son.

 

[Odysseus]

Because VII is supposed to be about the good and evil of humanity, and if they're worth preserving. Now it would be about the Cetra and their good culture vs the Spirans and their evil culture. There's no "duality of man" any more, now its a cut and dry "good locals versus evil invaders" story.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Al Bhed are humans.

Did anyone think of the Al Bhed as less than human in FFX? Of course not, because they're obviously human beings of a fantasy setting. Humans existing in other worlds, universes, etc is not strange to science fiction and fantasy. So I don't see how the Al Bhed are suddenly being equated as some sort of "other" or something here. They cry, sweat, and bleed just like any other human derivative.

And these are Al Bhed descendants. The Al Bhed that landed on FFVII's world are long gone now. You can't even equate their descendants as "others" now because they've lived, worked, and died on the planet now for several generations for centuries. They're very much apart of the planet now as indigenous life.

The duality exists just as much as it did before, because man exists beyond just the planet and some arbitrary measure of origin. Do you really believe in the world of FFVII and beyond that no other species of humans exist out there in the Cosmos? Why would that be the case? Knowing what we know of spirit energy, memories, and how planets continue to live on, there's no way at all that the only humans of FFVII are those of that planet.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Because VII is supposed to be about the good and evil of humanity, and if they're worth preserving. Now it would be about the Cetra and their good culture vs the Spirans and their evil culture. There's no "duality of man" any more, now its a cut and dry "good locals versus evil immigrants" story.

That seems unnecessarily reductive, and at odds with the search for duality (e.g. balance between technology and nature). It's not like making use of metal, wires, and electricity was beyond the scope of the Cetra (as humans) to make tools of or originally beyond the scope of the planet to provide.

Then they just chilled out for 2,000 years, still maintaining that blond hair line, and not making any progress on mako tech despite the fact that X-2!Shinra was clearly around for this entire stretch of time. Someone finally sent him in the last 40 years I guess?

Where are you getting that Shinra of the Gullwings was around for 2000 years? From the exhibit photo of a man in a mask? Why should that be Shinra himself and not just Rufus's grandpa?

This is why it's difficult to talk about this concept in a fair-shake manner. Folks who just plainly don't like it bring in these catastrophic contradictions that obviously would break the whole idea if they were part of it -- which should be the first thing to tell them these notions clearly aren't part of it. =P

So, no to all of these things:

- Cetra are Spirans
- Cetra used mako reactors
- Shinra of FFX-2 was hanging out on this planet forty years ago
- Al Bhed swooped down in dropships and immediately did a barnraising on a mako reactor
- Shinra of FFX-2 and/or other Al Bhed arrived in recent history, then promptly misplaced their interstellar means of travel that far outstrips clunky crap like the Shin-Ra No. 26, forcing them to start over on space exploration

I have literally never seen a discussion of this topic not get knocked off the rails by one of these wild detours.

 

[ForceStealer]

So I don't see how the Al Bhed are suddenly being equated as some sort of "other" or something here.

Because they're from another planet! Star Trek has countless planets that "are just like Earth except x", but they're still all aliens to the humans on the Enterprise.

Where are you getting that Shinra of the Gullwings was around for 2000 years? From the exhibit photo of a man in a mask? Why should that be Shinra himself and not just Rufus's grandpa?

Then why is it evidence of the Spira connection if it's just some dude in a mask?

 

[Makoeyes987]

I don't think it's that bizarre of a leap for FFX-2 Shinra to have somehow augmented himself to gain extended life given the fact Vincent Valentine is immortal thanks to having at least 4 different monsters fused within his being.

Shinra did the exact same thing, fusing the pyreflies of Ultima and Omega weapon into his being to become Super Shinra, a superpowered monster. Why would such a feat somehow not be refined over the years to allow him heightened lifespan to see whatever ambition through to the end?

Because they're from another planet! Star Trek has countless planets that "are just like Earth except x", but they're still all aliens to the humans on the Enterprise.

Their planetary origin is irrelevant given the fact the descendants are tried and true members of FFVII's planet. They've been inhabitants for centuries, surely calling them aliens now is no longer applicable. Just because their descendants originated from another world, doesn't reduce their humanity.

 

[Roger]

That seems unnecessarily reductive, and at odds with the search for duality (e.g. balance between technology and nature). It's not like making use of metal, wires, and electricity was beyond the scope of the Cetra (as humans) to make tools of or originally beyond the scope of the planet to provide.



Where are you getting that Shinra of the Gullwings was around for 2000 years? From the exhibit photo of a man in a mask? Why should that be Shinra himself and not just Rufus's grandpa?

This is why it's difficult to talk about this concept in a fair-shake manner. Folks who just plainly don't like it bring in these catastrophic contradictions that obviously would break the whole idea if they were part of it -- which should be the first thing to tell them these notions clearly aren't part of it. =P

So, no to all of these things:

- Cetra are Spirans
- Cetra used mako reactors
- Shinra of FFX-2 was hanging out on this planet forty years ago
- Al Bhed swooped down in dropships and immediately did a barnraising on a mako reactor
- Shinra of FFX-2 and/or other Al Bhed arrived in recent history, then promptly misplaced their interstellar means of travel that far outstrips clunky crap like the Shin-Ra No. 26, forcing them to start over on space exploration

I have literally never seen a discussion of this topic not get knocked off the rails by one of these wild detours.

Because Nojima told us that Shinra from X-2 would go on to found the Shinra Cooperation. That event is quite obviously what that photo is in reference too. Now you can consider it all tongue and cheek and that's fine, but at that point you might as well say that in actuality there's an empty chair next to young President Shinra in that picture. Asking why it would be Shinra from X-2 instead of Rufus' grandfather is being pointlessly obtuse. You know why.

 

[Odysseus]

That seems unnecessarily reductive, and at odds with looking for duality (e.g. balance between technology and nature).

Yeah, it is reductive, and that's why I don't like it. Whether or not the Spirans constitute the same genetic level of "human" as the Cetra did, it is their culture that is now the cause of the worlds problems through the Shinra family. I don't want to be able to reduce the point of this game to "immigrants bad" because that's stupid, and clearly not what they were going for. There does not need to be an "other" for the story to work, humanity is just as capable of good as evil all on its own, without other "human" aliens influencing them.

And these are Al Bhed descendants. The Al Bhed that landed on FFVII's world are long gone now. You can't even equate their descendants as "others" now because they've lived, worked, and died on the planet now for several generations for centuries. They're very much apart of the planet now as indigenous life.

Yet the insinuation is they supplanted the native inhabitants, their destructive technology caused all of the problems. Its christopher columbus bringing plague and death to the Americas now. Sure, they're integrated into the lifestyle they created for themselves, at the expense of the native population. Just because its the norm now doesn't mean it wasn't terrible.

VII having these themes on a singular planetary scale is fine, its commentary on the destructive power of uncontrolled capitalism. Systemic problems that arose naturally over the course of thousands of years. Having an outside influence be responsible for Shinra sends a bad message in my opinion.

I feel like I'm talking way over my head and verging on saying something really ignorant and stupid.

 

[ForceStealer]

2,000 years is not enough time for that kind of integration. Homo sapiens subsumed the Neanderthals 40,000 years ago. This is like if Romans were aliens But even if it is, that still begs the question of how do the Shinras have this definitely Al Bhed blond hair thing.

Because Nojima told us that Shinra from X-2 would go on to found the Shinra Cooperation. That event is quite obviously what that photo is in reference too. Now you can consider it all tongue and cheek and that's fine, but at that point you might as well say that in actuality there's an empty chair next to young President Shinra in that picture. Asking why it would be Shinra from X-2 instead of Rufus' grandfather is being pointlessly obtuse. You know why.

lol, here's an amusing bit of argument cannabilzation. Tres is on your "side" here

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Because they're from another planet! Star Trek has countless planets that "are just like Earth except x", but they're still all aliens to the humans on the Enterprise.



Then why is it evidence of the Spira connection if it's just some dude in a mask?

Because

__Shinra's mask
+ All the other stuff
__More than just some dude in a mask

On a related note --

Or, instead of having to handwave all of that. It could just be what it looked like from the beginning - an easter egg.

What are your thoughts on Gilgamesh? Especially in FFXII and Dissidia. Just a multi-armed Easter Egg?

We don't usually get a chapter of a game named after "just an Easter Egg," and fly around on it for that whole chapter. Or see it going into battle in scripted, mandatory FMVs and such.

 

[looneymoon]

I always just took the FFX-FFVII connection the same way I take the canon timeline for the Zelda games.

Sure, it's there if you're really into that but it's completely unnecessary.

 

[ForceStealer]

What are your thoughts on Gilgamesh? Especially in FFXII and Dissidia. Just a multi-armed Easter Egg?

We don't usually get a chapter of a game named after "just an Easter Egg," and fly around on it for that whole chapter. Or see it going into battle in scripted, mandatory FMVs and such.

Nope, Gilgamesh is one thing that is definitely the same across his appearances, because he was completely established as existing in the Interdimensional Rift, and is quite literally dimension hopping in his search for Bartz and weapons. Which he straight up says in most of his appearances.
But that isn't really a big deal because no game world has been retroactively claimed to be entirely based on Gilgamesh's travels. And him showing up in a given world doesn't suddenly produce a whole bunch of questions about how the events of that world have transpired. (Except for maybe the ludicrous idea that Seifer would be able to kill Odin )

 

[Odysseus]

Are all incarnations of Gilgamesh the same? I know a lot of them are supposed to be, but ones like IX Gilgamesh seemed a little removed from the whole thing.

 

[ForceStealer]

Many are definitely the same, others like IX and especially XV are more questionable.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Aside from the Gilgameshes from FFXI, FFXV, and Type-0, they are 100% the same Gilgamesh from FFV. The Interdimensional Rift is a space in the void that is seemingly able to connect to various universes where the different Final Fantasy stories take place, and Gilgamesh wanders said Rift looking for swords, fights and Bartz.

As for Shinra however, Shinra is a unique character Nojima and Kitase purposefully created to strengthen the connection between FFX and FFVII, so it's more than just an Easter Egg, it's an intentional chick that's now hatched and is I think a full grown rooster at this point.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Yeah, it is reductive, and that's why I don't like it.

I mean your assessment was unnecessarily reductive.

I don't want to be able to reduce the point of this game to "immigrants bad" because that's stupid ...

Yeah, so don't. XD

There does not need to be an "other" for the story to work ...

Indeed there doesn't. And a story about shortcomings of U.S. culture/politics/etc. doesn't require pretending that the United States is the ancestral homeland to everyone who lives here.

That's literally the same idea that we're seeing tables flipped over about in this thread.

VII having these themes on a singular planetary scale is fine, its commentary on the destructive power of uncontrolled capitalism.

Yet its cosmology explicitly applies to the whole universe. Why would we think there aren't humans on other worlds?

Because Nojima told us that Shinra from X-2 would go on to found the Shinra Cooperation. That event is quite obviously what that photo is in reference too. Now you can consider it all tongue and cheek and that's fine, but at that point you might as well say that in actuality there's an empty chair next to young President Shinra in that picture. Asking why it would be Shinra from X-2 instead of Rufus' grandfather is being pointlessly obtuse. You know why.

Yeah, I know. Rufus's grandpa=Shinra's descendant, not Shinra himself. I think you misread this debate.
----

On a related note, I feel like I have to repeat what I said a little while ago:

So, no to all of these things:

- Cetra are Spirans
- Cetra used mako reactors
- Shinra of FFX-2 was hanging out on this planet forty years ago
- Al Bhed swooped down in dropships and immediately did a barnraising on a mako reactor
- Shinra of FFX-2 and/or other Al Bhed arrived in recent history, then promptly misplaced their interstellar means of travel that far outstrips clunky crap like the Shin-Ra No. 26, forcing them to start over on space exploration

I have literally never seen a discussion of this topic not get knocked off the rails by one of these wild detours.

I would really like to see the thing discussed on its own merits someday without all these men made of straw. =\

 

[ForceStealer]

Indeed there doesn't. And a story about shortcomings of U.S. culture/politics/etc. doesn't require pretending that the United States is the ancestral homeland to everyone who lives here.

That's literally the same idea that we're seeing tables flipped over about in this thread.

No, it literally isn't. Aliens arriving is a BIG deal. In fact, the arrival of an alien on VII's Planet upended everything about it. I'm hesitant to run with this particular analogy, but the Europeans arriving on the North American continent was also a huge deal that upended everything in just a few hundred years.
This is the equivalent of the Europeans showing up, nobody really noticing, not really having any effect, and then 2,000 years later making a HUGE difference. While being simultaneously completely genetically integrated into the Native American population while also having a direct and pure(ly European, not "pure" in an assessment sense) bloodline.

 

[Odysseus]

Man I should have just kept my mouth shut, sorry for stirring all this up.

I just don't like the implications that are created here, it doesn't feel thought out.

Yeah, so don't. XD

Okay, I won't then. I just want to know what Square actually wants me to take away from this information. @_@

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Me too, Ody.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Okay, I won't then. I just want to know what Square actually wants me to take away from this information. @_@

FFVII and FFX are in the same universe and that Shinra of the Gullwings is the ancestor of the company

Just give in, it's okay! Let it take you and embrace the truth that this is the second outright connection confirmed between two different FF games!

No, it literally isn't. Aliens arriving is a BIG deal. In fact, the arrival of an alien on VII's Planet upended everything about it. I'm hesitant to run with this particular analogy, but the Europeans arriving on the North American continent was also a huge deal that upended everything in just a few hundred years.
This is the equivalent of the Europeans showing up, nobody really noticing, not really having any effect, and then 2,000 years later making a HUGE difference. While being simultaneously completely genetically integrated into the Native American population while also having a direct and pure(ly European, not "pure" in an assessment sense) bloodline.

What gets upended here? I literally do not see anything at all. So you gotta explain to me what falls apart here.

 

[ForceStealer]

Okay, I won't then. I just want to know what Square actually wants me to take away from this information. @_@

The essence of the disagreement seems to be:

1. "Yes, Shinra of the Gullwings absolutely came to VII's Planet and set things in motion for the Shinra Compnay, but it doesn't matter in terms VII's themes, the way things happened, etc."
2. "Shinra of the Gullwings and an Al Bhed-y mask in the Remake are fun easter eggs, and so it doesn't matter in terms of VII's themes, the way things happened, etc."

I prefer the latter "and so" over having to use a "but."

 

[Odysseus]

My mindset is that it does impact VII's themes. It could either be in a way that serves as an extension of what was already there, or it could be taken in a way that sends a very destructive message. Like you said, the implication of literal aliens colonizing the planet is pretty huge. Its all a lot of fuss over something that really just amounts to what Mako said:

FFVII and FFX are in the same universe and that Shinra of the Gullwings is the ancestor of the company

 

[Roger]

Yeah, I know. Rufus's grandpa=Shinra's descendant, not Shinra himself. I think you misread this debate.
----

On a related note, I feel like I have to repeat what I said a little while ago:

So, no to all of these things:

- Cetra are Spirans
- Cetra used mako reactors
- Shinra of FFX-2 was hanging out on this planet forty years ago
- Al Bhed swooped down in dropships and immediately did a barnraising on a mako reactor
- Shinra of FFX-2 and/or other Al Bhed arrived in recent history, then promptly misplaced their interstellar means of travel that far outstrips clunky crap like the Shin-Ra No. 26, forcing them to start over on space exploration

I have literally never seen a discussion of this topic not get knocked off the rails by one of these wild detours.

I would really like to see the thing discussed on its own merits someday without all these men made of straw. =\

I agree with no to Cetra being Spiran or them using Mako Reactors or Al Bhed taking over the planet with dropship.

I don't think the guy in the mask in that photo is suppose to be anyone other then Shinra from X-2. To say that they arrived before Jenova, means the connection is so distant and remote (nigh nonexistent really) that even though he did land on the Planet it's all but a coincidence that Midgar resembled a dream he expressed to Yuna once or it's founder had a similiar name anyway. I don't think that's the intent.