SPOILERS Split-off FFVII/FFX Connection Discussion

[The Twilight Mexican]

Okay, I won't then. I just want to know what Square actually wants me to take away from this information. @_@

To enjoy it if you do. Or, if you do not, to not care about it even as much as you may care about what your own ancestors of 2000 years past were doing.

@looneymoon put it best:

I always just took the FFX-FFVII connection the same way I take the canon timeline for the Zelda games.

Sure, it's there if you're really into that but it's completely unnecessary.

----

No, it literally isn't. Aliens arriving is a BIG deal. In fact, the arrival of an alien on VII's Planet upended everything about it. I'm hesitant to run with this particular analogy, but the Europeans arriving on the North American continent was also a huge deal that upended everything in just a few hundred years.
This is the equivalent of the Europeans showing up, nobody really noticing, not really having any effect, and then 2,000 years later making a HUGE difference. While being simultaneously completely genetically integrated into the Native American population while also having a direct and pure(ly European, not "pure" in an assessment sense) bloodline.

You're taking the analogy way, way too far. Literally all it was addressing was "Can a story looking at [how the people occupying a specific geographic space are being fuckups and abusing their land/each other] do so with fidelity to the themes under filter if [they are the descendants of colonialist immigrants]?"

The answer to that is obviously yes.

 

[Odysseus]

It just makes me wonder, if the people posing a threat to the Planet aren't even native to that planet, isn't it a no brainer to get rid of them? If the planet is a living being itself, would it not just be a body using its immune system to eliminate a parasite?

 

[ForceStealer]

You're taking the analogy way, way too far. Literally all it was addressing was "Can a story looking at [how the people occupying a specific geographic space are being fuckups and abusing their land/each other] do so with fidelity to the theme under filter if [they are the descendants of colonialist immigrants]?"

No, I'm not. You said that this abstract concept you just outlined was "literally the idea that we're seeing tables flipped over about in this thread." And I'm saying that no, to whatever extent tables are being flipped, as dramatic a reading of this discussion as that is, it's due to the implications of all the questions this idea raises.

Or, if you do not, to not care about it even as much as you may care about what your own ancestors of 2000 years past were doing.

In other words, treat it like an easter egg.
Rishi's assessment works for exactly this reason. The Zelda timeline is functionally meaningless, will likely have no bearing on the actual development of future Zelda games except for the developers to drop occasional bread crumbs that don't technically lead anywhere, and was actually more fun before Nintendo made a statement on the matter.

 

[Makoeyes987]

How is the Zelda timeline meaningless when it ultimately explains the numerous instances of Ganondorf hijacking the world and the Hero of Time's conspicuous absence in a certain subsequent series of events which led to the Great Flood and decimation of the entire Hyrule region? It doesn't matter to every game but it matters to several.

Subsequently, the origins of the Shinra Company do matter in a lore based context since it's something the writers have intentionally thrown there and repeatedly confirmed over and over again.

They literally put the damn dude who's literally named Shinra and created the iconic logo of the company in a picture with President Shinra himself.

I don't understand how much more larger this Easter egg must become before it explodes into a mile high ton of confetti and sparks which demand the acknowledgement that this is real

It doesn't contradict a thing, nor does it detract or somehow subvert the themes of Final Fantasy. Like, if anything, it supports it. This isn't like trying to take the DOG Endings of Silent Hill as the true legitimate endings here. It's not just random nonsense.

It just makes me wonder, if the people posing a threat to the Planet aren't even native to that planet, isn't it a no brainer to get rid of them? If the planet is a living being itself, would it not just be a body using its immune system to eliminate a parasite?

They're people. I don't understand this otherising of the Al Bhed going on here. They're not weird mutants or aliens like Jenova. They're homo sapiens. Why would they be considered foreign? They hold spirit energy like anything else and would add to the collective. There's nothing wrong with them. Their descendants would subsequently be part of the planet due to being born there.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

It just makes me wonder, if the people posing a threat to the Planet aren't even native to that planet, isn't it a no brainer to get rid of them? If the planet is a living being itself, would it not just be a body using its immune system to eliminate a parasite?

There were Cetra who stopped living their way of life, though. They're still in the current genetic soup.

No, I'm not. You said that this abstract concept you just outlined was "literally the idea that we're seeing tables flipped over about in this thread."

What was the concept I said that about? Have a look: "a story about shortcomings of U.S. culture/politics/etc. doesn't require pretending that the United States is the ancestral homeland to everyone who lives here."

Does that not sound very much like "Can a story looking at [how the people occupying a specific geographic space are being fuckups and abusing their land/each other] do so with fidelity to the theme under filter if [they are the descendants of colonialist immigrants]?"

More to the point, I wrote both summations, and I know I'm not interested (not today at least, but do put a pin in this one) some hypothetical alternate universe where Europeans gradually colonized North America via interbreeding over the course of 2000 years.

So ... yes.

In other words, treat it like an easter egg.

Certainly. But that doesn't entail arguing that it is nothing more than one. =P

 

[Odysseus]

There were Cetra who stopped living their way of life, though. They're still in t

I thought we were retroactively asserting that those people were the Spirans. I guess that doesn't have to be the case, but then what does a pure ancient have genetically different that would biologically distinguish then from anyone else in that case? If the abilities of the ancients are more cultural than physical, would shinra need Aerith?

 

[Makoeyes987]

The Cetra would certainly not be extraterrestrial atheistic grease monkeys who abhor organized religion, embrace technology and see the planet as nothing but resources meant to be strip mined and utilized for societal advancement

The connection fits so well, this is why it's so foreign to me how everyone here somehow hates this. It fits perfectly and is so thematically on point I literally cannot grasp what the criticism is other than some abhorrence of Final Fantasies mixing.

No, the Shinra Company are descendants of the Al Bhed, and it's why the Al Bhed youth named Shinra carries their name and logo. There's nothing at all linking Spira to the indigenous Cetra. It's to link the Shinra Company to the Al Bhed.

And yes, there is some genetic component to the Cetran race. Hojo hints to this in terms of saying Aerith is only about as half as effectual as her Mother. And given what Aerith was able to do as a child as shown in her new short story, they very much have unique abilities in being able to tap into the Lifestream, sense it, and potentially use it to shape the planet.

 

[Odysseus]

I don't know if that was in response to me, but I'm not saying the ancients became the Spirans, I'm saying the "lazy ancients" were in reality the Spirans and that Sephiroth was wrong. Also, just because something makes sense lore wise doesn't mean we automatically have to like it. No matter how logical and concrete the connection might become, I'm still going to think its needless.

EDIT: added a word

 

[ForceStealer]

Odysseus isn't thinking the Cetra are Al Bhed, he was thinking that now all the NON-Cetra humans are the planet are sourced from Al Bhed. Which was a similar element of confusion to mine when Nojima and Kitase first started going off about it as that was what I assumed it meant. The stated postion appears to be that there are THREE races on the Planet. The Cetra, the non-Cetra humans (who are descended from Cetra but obviously distinct in some way), and an alien bloodline descending from the Al Bhed Shinra. (Roger appears to feel differently here, that X-2!Shinra did not arrive all that long ago.)

Shinra's Al Bhed bloodline is apparently both completely integrated into the population of humans while also having a pure and direct line leading President Shinra and Rufus that has maintained 100% blond hair but not swirly eyes. (How many people did he come with?)

Certainly. But that doesn't entail arguing that it is nothing more than one.

I think it's fair enough to entail arguing my opinion of why treating it as more than one at best adds nothing to the story and at worst raises a whole bunch of questions that don't need to exist.

 

[Makoeyes987]

The Moogle kid in Sector 5's slums is useless too but those are the trappings and dressing of Final Fantasy that exist

Not everything has a core connected meaning or purpose. Just like in reality, certain elements exist independently and wholly for themselves, or in the case, the writer's discretion and whimsy. That's how stories like these obtain their uniqueness and authenticity, and since FFX and FFVII are two of the most popular FFs, I can see why they did it. If FFVII's (or any FF for that matter) story were nothing but an efficient, streamlined telling of it's plot, I doubt it'd be a series as popular as it is now.

These connections are the product of allusion based fun which is why it's a popular theory in and of itself. It's wholly unnecessary but completely intended. Just like Ivalice being the same world in FFXII and Tactics, only separated by a very long span of time.

 

[looneymoon]

I don't think the contention in this FFX/FFVII discussion has to be mutually exclusive?

Something can be an easter egg but also act as a footnote to the lore. I can agree that the FFX-FVII connection kind of... impedes on part of the appeal FF series, where every entry exists separate from another. On the other hand, FFX and FFVII share key writing staff, so having cross-reference stuff isn't exactly a big deal. It happens all the time.

For some reason, the first comparison I can think of is the anime Death Parade, which was produced by the same people who did the Death Note anime. The show takes place in the afterlife, and somewhere near the end, Light from Death Note makes a post-mortem cameo. This is pretty much an easter egg, but I think it's a strong enough piece of evidence to confirm that both the anime take place in the same universe (manga notwithstanding). That being said, both Death Parade and Death Note still exist on their own, and aren't exactly sequels/prequels to each other. They're just a bit more connected than say... Death Note and One Punch Man, or something else done by Madhouse.

I think going forward with FF7r+Compilation or FFX-3 (), the connection is vague enough that it's not anything that anyone has to be super beholden to.

 

[ForceStealer]

(I split these posts out as I think it's significant enough at this point to not be relevant to the Chapter 18 thread)

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I thought we were retroactively asserting that those people were the Spirans. I guess that doesn't have to be the case, but then what does a pure ancient have genetically different that would biologically distinguish then from anyone else in that case? If the abilities of the ancients are more cultural than physical, would shinra need Aerith?

Hojo does talk about Ifalna's cellular structure as though it differs, so it appears there is a physical component at work there also.

Of course, this particular notion (of differing behaviors, life experience, etc. resulting in differing physiologies) isn't even science fiction (albeit I'm sure it's exaggerative here). That's just human evolution.

... I'm saying the "lazy ancients" were in reality the Spirans and that Sephiroth was wrong.

Ah, I see. I guess that's possible as well. Seph is sufficiently vague:

"But, those that disliked the journey appeared. Those who stopped their migrations built shelters and elected to lead an easier life.
They took that which the Cetra and the planet had made without giving back one whit in return!
Those are your ancestors."

Not sure what the intention there is, but to me it seems more plausible that the whole Cetra race wouldn't have been monolithic about it? Particularly since we know some pure Cetra survived into the modern era until they finally dwindled into extinction, no doubt in large part to joining the larger gene pool. That's what the last Ancient did.

But you are absolutely right that there is some room there for Seph to have been wrong about what he read. Wouldn't be the first time.

Also, just because something makes sense lore wise doesn't mean we automatically have to like it.

Oh, of course. Absolutely.

No matter how logical and concrete the connection might become, I'm still going to think its needless.

Fair enough.

I think it's fair enough to entail arguing my opinion of why treating it as more than one at best adds nothing to the story and at worst raises a whole bunch of questions that don't need to exist.

We agree after all!

 

[Odysseus]

The connection edges on being too important to just be a little cameo for fun, because it has huge implications for the origins of the main antagonists of the game. Something like Cloud's "canon" appearance in Tactics doesn't bother me because it's just a fun little thing that doesn't effect much. I'm not innately against the games having little connections like that. I think Gilgamesh's multi dimensional adventure is a fun little background thing in the series too, I actually hope he has an appearance in remake.

 

[oty]

Wait wait, just explain something. Kazushige came out and said years ago, I quote, "It's anecdotal, there is nothing that deep!", but now he changed his mind? And it's not just an easter egg?

Nojima Interview

 

[ForceStealer]

The elegance of the Tactics cameo is also that, from Cloud's perspective, it was a Mako-fueled fever dream, irrespective of whether it actually happened in Ivalice. This is nothing so elegant.

Wait wait, just explain something. Kazushige came out and said years ago, I quote, "It's anecdotal, there is nothing that deep!", but now he changed his mind? And it's not just an easter egg?

Yes, they've been plenty inconsistent about the presentation because they haven't thought that hard about it because it's an easter egg

I don't remember what else Nojima has said about it. Kitase waffled on it for Kotaku, "well Nojima wrote both, but I won't say it's definitely the case," then said yes on some youtubers channel. Who knows.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Yeah, Nojima seems to have gone back and forth a bit (despite being the one to have laid out multiple paragraphs of details about the matter ), but Kitase at least has been consistent.

Maybe Kitase liked the idea so much after Nojima made the initial observation of the similarities between VII and X that he keeps encouraging these things? So we end up with the kid named "Shinra"; the "city that never sleeps"; the Shin-Ra logo being designed by Shinra; familiar-looking airships of mysterious origin; Shinra's Al Bhed mask in a photo from President Shinra's exhibit; etc.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Wait wait, just explain something. Kazushige came out and said years ago, I quote, "It's anecdotal, there is nothing that deep!", but now he changed his mind? And it's not just an easter egg?

Nojima Interview

That's not the most recent interview on the subject nor does it include what Kitase has said (Nojima's boss and subsequent scenario overseer) or subsequent clarifications on the matter in as recent as 2018. That's cherry picking.

The connection edges on being too important to just be a little cameo for fun, because it has huge implications for the origins of the main antagonists of the game. Something like Cloud's "canon" appearance in Tactics doesn't bother me because it's just a fun little thing that doesn't effect much. I'm not innately against the games having little connections like that. I think Gilgamesh's multi dimensional adventure is a fun little background thing in the series too, I actually hope he has an appearance in remake.

What is so important about it?

Only the people who are so bent on denying this connection are building it to be this important.

The fact that Shinra of the Gullwings is the ancestor of the Shinra Company serves zero functional importance to the story of FFVII. None. It means absolutely zero to the direct plot of FFVII, it's depiction for the audience, and the characters themselves. Do you think Rufus Shinra gives a damn about the supposed space colonizing ancestors he may be related to? He doesn't even give that much of a shit about his half-brothers.

Like, I have yet to hear a tangible, concrete issue or plot hole that is created by this connection. It's the equivalent of people who hate having their food mixed together on their plate. It's a subjective preference but that doesn't equate to a plot hole or subversion of the story and it's themes.

If you can accept Cloud Strife falling into Ivalice and fighting alongside Ramza Beoulve in the War of the Lions and even defeating Ultima in the Airship Graveyard, you should be able to handle Shinra being the ancestor of the Shinras. I cannot believe that is okay but this isn't.

 

[ForceStealer]

Obviously, these kinds of debates inherently push everyone into looking like they feel more extremely than they actually do. Like Tres and I both wound up saying, we agree that it doesn't radically change FF7. It's just that I prefer that it actually doesn't affect FF7, rather than simply pretending it doesn't. But I'm happy to do so, just as I'm happy to pretend the FFX novel was also a Mako-fueled fever dream that has no actual bearing on FFX

the Shin-Ra logo being designed by Shinra

I genuinely don't remember this bit, though I believe you.

airships of mysterious origin

This thing, from Dirge (not written by Nojima, incidentally), is dumb, lol. Even ignoring a X connection and just saying it was a Cetran airship is dumb. And, if I can put on my @Mr. Ite hat for a moment, completely undermines Cid's work in developing an oil-powered airship in Case of Barret. This could lead into interesting story oppotunities regarding the use of oil vs Mako and- whoops nevermind MAGIC ENGINE (THOUGH NOT A MAKO ENGINE WHICH IS ALSO KIND OF A MAGIC ENGINE BUT....LOOK OVER THERE!).

That's not the most recent interview on the subject nor does it include what Kitase has said (Nojima's boss and subsequent scenario overseer) or Nojima's subsequent clarifications on the matter. That's cherry picking.

It is not cherry picking to say they've been inconsistent about it, stop it.

The fact that Shinra of the Gullwings is the ancestor of the Shinra Company serves zero functional importance to the story of FFVII. None. It means absolutely zero to the plot, it's depiction, and it's characters. Do you think Rufus Shinra gives a damn about the supposed space colonizing ancestors he may be related to? He doesn't even give that much of a shit about his half-brothers.

Like, I have yet to hear a tangible, concrete issue or plot hole that is created by this connection. It's the equivalent of people who hate having their food mixed together on their plate. It's a subjective preference but that doesn't equate to a plot hole or subversion of the story.

And yet it leads to questions for which the only response is "that's how life be sometimes." This baffles you as to why it might bother some people? Whether Rufus cares isn't relevant.
That Cloud may or may not be one of the noseless goons that fought a demon in another dimension and otherwise had no impact on the story is not even sort of equivalent to the Shinra Company is descended - whether genetically or intellectually - from aliens and use alien technology in their subjugation of the world. Yes. It doesn't affect the day to day lives of the inhabitants of FF7's world. But that's kind of a huge detail!

 

[Odysseus]

That's not the most recent interview on the subject nor does it include what Kitase has said (Nojima's boss and subsequent scenario overseer) or subsequent clarifications on the matter in as recent as 2018. That's cherry picking.



What is so important about it?

Only the people who are so bent on denying this connection are building it to be this important.

The fact that Shinra of the Gullwings is the ancestor of the Shinra Company serves zero functional importance to the story of FFVII. None. It means absolutely zero to the direct plot of FFVII, it's depiction for the audience, and the characters themselves. Do you think Rufus Shinra gives a damn about the supposed space colonizing ancestors he may be related to? He doesn't even give that much of a shit about his half-brothers.

Like, I have yet to hear a tangible, concrete issue or plot hole that is created by this connection. It's the equivalent of people who hate having their food mixed together on their plate. It's a subjective preference but that doesn't equate to a plot hole or subversion of the story and it's themes.

If you can accept Cloud Strife falling into Ivalice and fighting alongside Ramza Beoulve in the War of the Lions and even defeating Ultima in the Airship Graveyard, you should be able to handle Shinra being the ancestor of the Shinras. I cannot believe that is okay but this isn't.

Well I'm sorry my opinions don't line up with yours. I've already explained the areas in which I think this all makes for some ugly implications earlier in the thread, but if you don't think so then you're free to disagree.

Cloud is optional in tactics, and his being there means nothing to his arc. The shira family being evil aliens (HUMAN ALIENS) is something a little harder to digest. I don't care if it effects character motivations, it's still something I have to reconcile.

If you don't think it's a big deal, that's okay, I was perfectly fine just ignoring the whole thing too. You don't gotta be condescending just because we don't agree.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Obviously, these kinds of debates inherently push everyone into looking like they feel more extremely than they actually do. Like Tres and I both wound up saying, we agree that it doesn't radically change FF7. It's just that I prefer that it actually doesn't affect FF7, rather than simply pretending it doesn't. But I'm happy to do so, just as I'm happy to pretend the FFX novel was also a Mako-fueled fever dream that has no actual bearing on FFX

Yeah, see, that's actually canon, though.

I genuinely don't remember this bit, though I believe you.

That weird monster arena thing of his in X-2: International+Last Mission has the logo all over the place. His name is on it too in a stylized typeface that sort of evokes the kanji of the FFVII version of the logo.

This thing, from Dirge (not written by Nojima, incidentally), is dumb, lol. Even ignoring a X connection and just saying it was a Cetran airship is dumb. And, if I can put on my @Mr. Ite hat for a moment, completely undermines Cid's work in developing an oil-powered airship in Case of Barret. This could lead into interesting story oppotunities regarding the use of oil vs Mako and- whoops nevermind MAGIC ENGINE (THOUGH NOT A MAKO ENGINE WHICH IS ALSO KIND OF A MAGIC ENGINE BUT....LOOK OVER THERE!).

It is not cherry picking to say they've been inconsistent about it, stop it.

I agree, it's only reasonable to point out this exchange with Nojima. It's especially a problematic comment given the three interviews from Kitase around that same time, as well as what we have now from FFVIIR and its Ultimania.

 

[Makoeyes987]

But I'm happy to do so, just as I'm happy to pretend the FFX novel was also a Mako-fueled fever dream that has no actual bearing on FFX

It was, that's a fact.

I genuinely don't remember this bit, though I believe you.

The international version of FFX-2 shows Shinra's logo for the Creature Colleseum and stuff and... It's the Shinra Company logo.

Spoiler: Gaze upon the truth and reflect upon it's reality

This is how deep it gets.

This thing, from Dirge (not written by Nojima, incidentally), is dumb, lol. Even ignoring a X connection and just saying it was a Cetran airship is dumb. And, if I can put on my @Mr. Ite hat for a moment, completely undermines Cid's work in developing an oil-powered airship in Case of Barret. This could lead into interesting story oppotunities regarding the use of oil vs Mako and- whoops nevermind MAGIC ENGINE (THOUGH NOT A MAKO ENGINE WHICH IS ALSO KIND OF A MAGIC ENGINE BUT....LOOK OVER THERE!).

How is it dumb??

The Sierra's interior looks like the Fahrenheit and Celsius!

And where's the undermining? It's simply a utilization of ancient technology with newly found resources. A marriage of the two. How does that undermine Cid's abilities? If anything, that's a testament to Cid's engineering prowess to get lost technology up and running. This is a trait Cids have been doing since FFV, after all.

It is not cherry picking to say they've been inconsistent about it, stop it.

And yet it leads to questions for which the only response is "that's how life be sometimes." This baffles you as to why it might bother some people? Whether Rufus cares isn't relevant.

Inconsistency doesn't change their subsequent and most recent clarifications however. They're not confused or backtracking. If anything, they've dug in.

And it reflects reality. Not everything in life is connected to a grand purpose or ultimate design. In meta-narratives and decades long franchises, this ultimately proves the case as well.

 

[looneymoon]

But I'm happy to do so, just as I'm happy to pretend the FFX novel was also a Mako-fueled fever dream that has no actual bearing on FFX

I for one would love to read the Nojima-penned novella where Cloud, in the midst of battle, gets distracted by Tifa in a bathing suit.

 

[Makoeyes987]

....Just as long as Cloud doesn't get his head blown off kicking whacking what he thinks is a suspiciously placed Blitzball Whack-A-Box.

 

[Theozilla]

Always thought it was a cool bit of lore connection, like how the Zelda timeline creates some interesting plot points, for example how the Ocarina of Time timeline split causes the flood in the Wind Waker timeline and Ocarina of Time Link becoming the Hero’s Shade in the Twilight Princess timeline.
Same with FFX-2 Shinra being a distant ancestor of the FFVII Shinra family (and apparently Al Bhed masks/helmets get passed down through generations).

Also I remember when the FF wiki did a funny April Fool’s joke “game announcement” where they said the next numbered Final Fantasy game would be set in space and would be a “midquel” between FFX-2 and FFVII with the main protagonists being the explorers from Spira traveling to FFVII’s Planet.
I would legitimately be interested in playing such a game personally.