Well yeah because the staff comment is pointing directly to the colorful one. You're looking at the wrong arrows. The staff comment is in a lighter green bubble that is pointing to the colorful nebula.
[Spoilers] Material Ultimania Plus discussion
- Thread starter Eerie
- Start date
TurquoiseHammer
Pro Adventurer
I really couldn't say anything yet with certainty. I think there's intentional ambiguity about whether he's converted to a more righteous cause or whether he's still trying to achieve his original evil objective. I don't have a particular hardline stance either way, though you can find people who do.
ultima786
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- ultima
Either way you spin it, seems fairly obvious Sephiroth isn’t a good dude. I only see two possibilities, is he using people or is he destroying people?
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
Cloud can either be a willing puppet, or he can be a marionette.
Either way, Sephiroth's having his puppet show
Either way, Sephiroth's having his puppet show
The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
- AKA
- TresDias
I'm not certain what conclusion you were wanting to get across, so I apologize if this is unnecessary, but we can at least be certain that the original continuity's Sephiroth very much hated humans (Cloud most of all), and desired not only their deaths, but their suffering as well. Case of Lifestream Black tells us:
"The man hid himself within the life on the planet and traveled around the world, branding even more people with his stigma. On the surface there were many people who no longer had their normal lives, and at the man’s temptation the dark parts of their hearts grew even larger.
Soon the man thought to himself; I want Cloud to know this is my doing. I want the humans to know this is my doing."
So if Seph really has become indifferent to the humans, that's quite a departure. At any rate, he still seems hung up on Cloud to one extent or another.
"The man hid himself within the life on the planet and traveled around the world, branding even more people with his stigma. On the surface there were many people who no longer had their normal lives, and at the man’s temptation the dark parts of their hearts grew even larger.
Soon the man thought to himself; I want Cloud to know this is my doing. I want the humans to know this is my doing."
So if Seph really has become indifferent to the humans, that's quite a departure. At any rate, he still seems hung up on Cloud to one extent or another.
ultima786
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- ultima
Hmmm, interesting.
TurquoiseHammer
Pro Adventurer
Looks like the localized Material Ultimanias are starting to ship. Seen a few screenshots on Twitter and they look great. Excited for the lore discussions to reopen. Anyone got one?
ultima786
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- ultima
Please! We have work to do, Soldiers!
Leafonthebreeze
Any/All
- AKA
- Leaf
Ooh, gonna make sure nobody got it for me for Xmas and if not I'll def order it.
Smoothie King
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Pat
I just got mine today. I'm still on the Key Visual section and it is absolutely astounding the amount of time, effort and work that went into this game. Astounding.
Smoothie King
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Pat
Also, sorry for the double post but as an owner of a Ragdoll cat, I just marked out big time seeing that ragdoll cats were secretly running around Midgar this whole time!
Lets hope the next parts will be the same.
ultima786
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- ultima
Based off of the Newly translated Materials Ultimania:
I purchased the Final Fantasy VII Remake Materials Ultimania (Kindle Version). I was looking very closely at the notes in the storyboards for the final fight between Cloud & Sephiroth at the so-called "Edge of Creation." These notes actually say some very interesting things regarding the scenes they depict, which I had not seen translated or discussed before!
Note that in certain development sections of the Ultimania that showcase the dev's notes and thought-processes, there is a disclaimer that suggests those sections and development notes are not necessarily canon. However! This section titled "Cutscene Storyboards" does not have that disclaimer, which makes me feel these notes are as close to canon as you can expect.
Interpreting the Edge of Creation per the English Materials Ultimania
Take a look at page 270 and 271 below:
Here, Sephiroth confidently smiles. This appears to contradict what many imagined was a look of disappointment. This might give more credence to the interpretation that Sephiroth is un-phased.
In board #30, the note states: "Space shows contrast between the universe of death and the universe of creation." The implication here is that the Edge of Creation scene is depicting something cosmic and profound. I reasonably assume this means one of the nebulae represents "The Universe of Death" while the other represents "The Universe of Creation."
Does this mean the Edge of Creation scene represents two futures, one where the entire Universe is at stake? The other represents a rebirth? Did Sephiroth [and Aerith?] somehow bring about the rebirth of the entire universe (usually referred to by the community as a new timeline)? Is Remake simply this new Universe? Are the flashbacks and flashfowards simply glimpses of this other universe? Speculation: did Squarenix pull the trigger of showing Meteor early only to show us later, that the new threat Sephiroth will bring about is actually Supernova and the destruction of the cosmic lifestream, not just Gaia's lifestream?
We're not done yet. Board #31 reads: "Cut in (1). Cloud in ready stance. Bears the burden of the Universe of Creation." What on Gaia does this mean? Is Cloud an avatar of sorts, representing this new world in some otherworldly, cosmic way? Look at board #32, below, which reads: "Sephiroth in ready stance. Bears the burden of the Universe of Death." What the hell is going on here? So much for the Sephiroth redemption-arc interpretations of this scene!
Bearing the Burden of Life and Death?
We're not done here, folks.
Note that Board #47 reads, "A menacing smile forms on Sephiroth's face." For the few people who interpreted this scene as the start of a redemption arc, I think this is another data-point that helps put that interpretation to bed.
Board #45 reads, "Zoom out. Buster Sword flies up in air. Background. Wide-angle of the universe of death." But note that the image here in #45in the background is actually presenting the shot of the colorful nebula, not the scary-looking red one!
The beautiful nebula behind Sephiroth here appears to be labelled "The Universe of Death" as per board #45.
To make things more clear, Board #50 says "Cloud in front of the universe of death."
The above really freaks me out but is also quite amazing. If we are to trust these boards, I think there is no question: the beautiful nebula full of vibrant colors is indeed the universe of death, and is not at all a positive presence. Page 183 states this in so-many words, with a quote from Mizushi Sugawara (Environmental Artwork artist): "Sephiroth's wing was used as inspiration for the background featured in the final confrontation between Cloud and Sephiroth. Sometimes beautiful things in life don't come from positive places." See this link for Audrey's translation of this quote. Note that p. 183 has two images depicted, the Beautiful colorful Nebula (which appears to be the Universe of Death) as well as the red nebula. So it is unclear if the quote by Sugawara is referring to the colorful nebula, the red one, or both.
The question is, doesn't this imply that the scary, red nebula that seems to have the Jenova silhouette is actually the Universe of Creation? And this Universe of Creation is the burden that Cloud carries? Is this supposed to be positive? Why does it look so menacing? Is it red and scary like this because the implication is that this universe has been fully infected by Jenova?
The Clash between the Lifestream and Meteor
It is important to note that Aerith was not mentioned at all in the notes regarding the Edge of Creation. However, on page 67, lead effects artist Youichi Iwata mentions that the almost-final battle with "Sephiroth" and the party is meant to "...show the clash between the lifestream and meteor, and thereby the confrontation between their respective avatars, Aerith and Sephiroth. Our hope was that players would be awed by the destructive majesty of meteor and feel it's a fitting backdrop for fighting the strongest enemy in the game, Sephiroth himself!" Note thetranslation by Audrey from the original Japanese Materials Ultimania:
p. 67 Quote
Questions
It is unclear to me what this all means, precisely. Why are each of these given the name "Universe?" What is Cloud's relationship to the Universe of Creation, precisely? And what about Sephiroth's to the Universe of Death? Is Cloud now something akin to an avatar of something far greater than himself, and how did he become this.
Speculation
My gut tells me that Remake's Sephiroth wants much more than to wound the planet. Somehow, there represents a rebirth of a new world, one represented by the so-called Universe of Death. Perhaps this rebirth took place from within the Lifestream, and Sephiroth was able to do this? Perhaps Holy restarted the universe anew? Who knows. All I know is that Cloud is vital to Sephiroth, and this makes sense considering the following: Cloud's memories are vital for Sephiroth's existence, as it is only Cloud with such a vivid, painful memory of Sephiroth. It is only Cloud who shares such an intimate link between him, considering he contains Jenova cells that Sephiroth has access to. Therefore, he can live on within the Lifestream, linked by Jenova cells and can manifest and maintain his identity by means of Cloud's memories of him. (for more info on this, see LIFESTREAM BLACK in On the Way to a Smile).
My gut also tells me that Meteor is no longer his ultimate plan. He no longer wishes to wound the planet. He seems to want to maintain its existence, perhaps in part because Cloud lives there and Cloud's life is the key to his own existence. So long as Cloud remembers him, he can exist. Sephiroth seems to have a strong interest in never letting Cloud die, as is apparent in the Edge of Creation dialogue between the two rivals. So what is his plan? I speculate (out of my rear end) that he wants to summon Supernova and cause a far greater wound not to the planet, but to all creation. Godhood is truly found in this plan, making him beyond Minerva, the Planets, and everything.
Note: I would really appreciate if Japanese readers could compare these notes to the original Japanese notes found in the Japanese Materials Ultimania.
Thanks for reading and considering.
I purchased the Final Fantasy VII Remake Materials Ultimania (Kindle Version). I was looking very closely at the notes in the storyboards for the final fight between Cloud & Sephiroth at the so-called "Edge of Creation." These notes actually say some very interesting things regarding the scenes they depict, which I had not seen translated or discussed before!
Note that in certain development sections of the Ultimania that showcase the dev's notes and thought-processes, there is a disclaimer that suggests those sections and development notes are not necessarily canon. However! This section titled "Cutscene Storyboards" does not have that disclaimer, which makes me feel these notes are as close to canon as you can expect.
Interpreting the Edge of Creation per the English Materials Ultimania
Take a look at page 270 and 271 below:
Here, Sephiroth confidently smiles. This appears to contradict what many imagined was a look of disappointment. This might give more credence to the interpretation that Sephiroth is un-phased.
In board #30, the note states: "Space shows contrast between the universe of death and the universe of creation." The implication here is that the Edge of Creation scene is depicting something cosmic and profound. I reasonably assume this means one of the nebulae represents "The Universe of Death" while the other represents "The Universe of Creation."
Does this mean the Edge of Creation scene represents two futures, one where the entire Universe is at stake? The other represents a rebirth? Did Sephiroth [and Aerith?] somehow bring about the rebirth of the entire universe (usually referred to by the community as a new timeline)? Is Remake simply this new Universe? Are the flashbacks and flashfowards simply glimpses of this other universe? Speculation: did Squarenix pull the trigger of showing Meteor early only to show us later, that the new threat Sephiroth will bring about is actually Supernova and the destruction of the cosmic lifestream, not just Gaia's lifestream?
We're not done yet. Board #31 reads: "Cut in (1). Cloud in ready stance. Bears the burden of the Universe of Creation." What on Gaia does this mean? Is Cloud an avatar of sorts, representing this new world in some otherworldly, cosmic way? Look at board #32, below, which reads: "Sephiroth in ready stance. Bears the burden of the Universe of Death." What the hell is going on here? So much for the Sephiroth redemption-arc interpretations of this scene!
Bearing the Burden of Life and Death?
We're not done here, folks.
Note that Board #47 reads, "A menacing smile forms on Sephiroth's face." For the few people who interpreted this scene as the start of a redemption arc, I think this is another data-point that helps put that interpretation to bed.
Board #45 reads, "Zoom out. Buster Sword flies up in air. Background. Wide-angle of the universe of death." But note that the image here in #45in the background is actually presenting the shot of the colorful nebula, not the scary-looking red one!
The beautiful nebula behind Sephiroth here appears to be labelled "The Universe of Death" as per board #45.
To make things more clear, Board #50 says "Cloud in front of the universe of death."
The above really freaks me out but is also quite amazing. If we are to trust these boards, I think there is no question: the beautiful nebula full of vibrant colors is indeed the universe of death, and is not at all a positive presence. Page 183 states this in so-many words, with a quote from Mizushi Sugawara (Environmental Artwork artist): "Sephiroth's wing was used as inspiration for the background featured in the final confrontation between Cloud and Sephiroth. Sometimes beautiful things in life don't come from positive places." See this link for Audrey's translation of this quote. Note that p. 183 has two images depicted, the Beautiful colorful Nebula (which appears to be the Universe of Death) as well as the red nebula. So it is unclear if the quote by Sugawara is referring to the colorful nebula, the red one, or both.
The question is, doesn't this imply that the scary, red nebula that seems to have the Jenova silhouette is actually the Universe of Creation? And this Universe of Creation is the burden that Cloud carries? Is this supposed to be positive? Why does it look so menacing? Is it red and scary like this because the implication is that this universe has been fully infected by Jenova?
The Clash between the Lifestream and Meteor
It is important to note that Aerith was not mentioned at all in the notes regarding the Edge of Creation. However, on page 67, lead effects artist Youichi Iwata mentions that the almost-final battle with "Sephiroth" and the party is meant to "...show the clash between the lifestream and meteor, and thereby the confrontation between their respective avatars, Aerith and Sephiroth. Our hope was that players would be awed by the destructive majesty of meteor and feel it's a fitting backdrop for fighting the strongest enemy in the game, Sephiroth himself!" Note thetranslation by Audrey from the original Japanese Materials Ultimania:
This scene is extremely important because it hints at the showdown between the world of the Lifestream that Aerith represents verses the world of Meteor that Sephiroth represents....
Notice that Aerith is described as an avatar of the Lifestream in the english. Note also that the japanese appears to describe the battle as one between the world of the lifestream vs the world of meteor.
p. 67 Quote
Questions
It is unclear to me what this all means, precisely. Why are each of these given the name "Universe?" What is Cloud's relationship to the Universe of Creation, precisely? And what about Sephiroth's to the Universe of Death? Is Cloud now something akin to an avatar of something far greater than himself, and how did he become this.
Speculation
My gut tells me that Remake's Sephiroth wants much more than to wound the planet. Somehow, there represents a rebirth of a new world, one represented by the so-called Universe of Death. Perhaps this rebirth took place from within the Lifestream, and Sephiroth was able to do this? Perhaps Holy restarted the universe anew? Who knows. All I know is that Cloud is vital to Sephiroth, and this makes sense considering the following: Cloud's memories are vital for Sephiroth's existence, as it is only Cloud with such a vivid, painful memory of Sephiroth. It is only Cloud who shares such an intimate link between him, considering he contains Jenova cells that Sephiroth has access to. Therefore, he can live on within the Lifestream, linked by Jenova cells and can manifest and maintain his identity by means of Cloud's memories of him. (for more info on this, see LIFESTREAM BLACK in On the Way to a Smile).
My gut also tells me that Meteor is no longer his ultimate plan. He no longer wishes to wound the planet. He seems to want to maintain its existence, perhaps in part because Cloud lives there and Cloud's life is the key to his own existence. So long as Cloud remembers him, he can exist. Sephiroth seems to have a strong interest in never letting Cloud die, as is apparent in the Edge of Creation dialogue between the two rivals. So what is his plan? I speculate (out of my rear end) that he wants to summon Supernova and cause a far greater wound not to the planet, but to all creation. Godhood is truly found in this plan, making him beyond Minerva, the Planets, and everything.
Note: I would really appreciate if Japanese readers could compare these notes to the original Japanese notes found in the Japanese Materials Ultimania.
Thanks for reading and considering.
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
The use of the word "burden" here is very interesting. Extremely telling. Put this revelation alongside the context of what we know so far. Such as...
And specifically this.
And the "burden" Sephiroth is carrying is the fact that he's surrounded by death and wishes to escape that inevitability. He is quite literally, alone in the Edge of Creation. His desire to protect his "precious memories" would of course lead him to protect the Planet that is soon to be destroyed. It's his to rule. He does not want it to end. That is the destiny he wants to defy.
Then there's Cloud, who "bears the burden of the Universe of Creation." The creation and cycle of life is one of suffering and loss. And life eventually gives way to death, because it is through death that life is born. And that is clearly a burden Cloud will have to carry as time comes on. But he ends up willingly carrying that weight, because life has meaning to him and others.
So that showdown and meaning between Cloud and Sephiroth makes a narrative and thematic sense. If their intentions and motivations do go in that direction. I find it very interesting that the Universe of Death reflects the beauty and malevolence of Sephiroth, yet it is "death" that he wishes to subvert. That's clearly an important thematic right there.
Sometimes beautiful things in life don't come from positive places.
ultima786
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- ultima
Did you ever get this? Have you done any alternate translations of any of this (the materials ultimania or materials ultimania plus?)
ultima786
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- ultima
How would you have translated it?Hm. I don't quite follow how Audrey got "in a different world" from ちがう世界になる, but it's cool. Multiple interpretations and resources are always nice to have.
TurquoiseHammer
Pro Adventurer
Yes, I did quite a few for the Material Plus. You can find them all throughout this thread after that post. There's a big list of links a couple pages back that includes some of them as well. As for the "different worlds" quote from Toriyama, it's (probably intentionally) very vague and doesn't really confirm much one way or the other.
TurquoiseHammer
Pro Adventurer
I went ahead and translated all the voice recording scripts. You can find them here in English and here in Japanese. I expect the localized Material Ultimania Plus to use the recording script for the corresponding region. Because there are big contextual differences between the Japanese and, say, English scenes, my bet is that the stage directions will differ significantly in places. Therefore, these should still be useful in that they show us the Japanese version of the recording scripts.
null
Mr. Thou
- AKA
- null
Hey, this English version is new right? Final Fantasy VII Remake: Material Ultimania Plus
I mean of course it’s new. It hasn’t come out yet. But didn’t it also come out like last year? I’m so confused. It doesn’t help that SE names their guides the way Targaryens name their children.
I mean of course it’s new. It hasn’t come out yet. But didn’t it also come out like last year? I’m so confused. It doesn’t help that SE names their guides the way Targaryens name their children.