Spoony takes on FFXIII

[Splintered]

If there was an explanation it was probably buried deep in the datalog or some Ultimania cash-grab, because I can't remember one in the game.

It kind of was. Although the fact that Snow was part of some silly little paramilitary group would make some of kind of training obvious, Snow and NORA have been fighting monsters in Cocoon.

Functioning as a neighborhood watch of sorts, NORA members patrol the vicinity of Bodhum for trouble. Most often, "trouble" consists of encroachment by dangerous forms of wildlife.
NORA had never openly acted out against the Sanctum prior to the Purge, and because of this, the military had been content to turn a blind eye to the group's activities.

I think it was also mentioned in its expanded universe.

His weapon is also the same technology as Lightning's snap/Psicom's general manadrives thingies, it doesn't comes from fists it comes from the runes on his coat. That's why whenever you change weapons, his gloves don't change, it's the design on the back of his coat. Hope's description of his initial weapon tells us that it's a hunting boomerang, it's a stretch but it's not impossible to think that his family let him hunt I guess.

I'm not really here to rain on anybody's parade. Enjoy your snark, it's fine- I just have a knee jerk reaction to some of the nitpicky details I guess. There's lots of things wrong with XIII, but I don't need to suspend my disbelief on how some final fantasy characters got weapons/became warriors. In general, the whole twitter versus Spoony thing really soured my enjoyment of his stuff, though he did give a good apology afterwards, I just eh.

 

[JBedford]

[...]if you manage to get through the first, uh... the game story, really, the game becomes way more interesting. The post game stuff is the most interesting stuff imo. Just yesterday I learned about "Gestalt: TP Charge" which was totally new to me. There is so much about the game you can do that you don't need to know to finish it.

Sidequests are limited to "kill this". Which I don't mind so much but I hardly think it's anything special considering the sidequests I remember from previous games in the series.

Like the stuff they managed to get done in XIII-2 (jumping, changing leader in battle, etc) that was scheduled for and should have been finished in XIII. I'm not saying jumping and party leader change would have saved the game, but I think there is lots in XIII-2 that was planned for XIII but had to be scrapped because they needed to get the game out to get some cash in.

That stuff was planned? Looks more to me like Square listened to criticisms about XIII and implemented them in XIII-2, because not being able to change party leaders sounds like a decision they would have to make and then do. If they were ever going to add the ability to change party leaders you would have expected it to be in the game.

But I hardly consider a jump button anything special. XIII had one too, except it would only let you jump when there was actually a reason to jump. In XIII-2 the only addition jump brings is pointless jumping, jumping up and down escalators, and a platforming minigame.

---

Anyway, I liked the review. Bar the criticism of the robes, I think I noticed and was mildly annoyed, or found laughable, all of the things he has mentioned. Especially Lightning's finger-click.

Although one thing: The Datalog was their way of having an expanded universe without explaining things in game. It wasn't meant to keep things from players. In other games you learn miscellaneous facts from random NPCs-- and usually far less of it, in XIII they put that stuff in the datalog (and still give NPCs a ton of talk-to lines somehow, usually giving "fluff"-- the everyday thoughts of random people -- I never read them).

I feel they explain most things that you need to know in the game. And all the little details that you don't really need to know, the kind of thing that gets relegated to random NPCs, is permanently viewable in the datalog if you wish to read them. I never read the datalog and I understood the game fine... -ish.

 

[Fangu]

That stuff was planned?

At least the jumping was [citation needed]. The changing party leaders is just a guess from my side.

Looks more to me like Square listened to criticisms about XIII and implemented them in XIII-2, because not being able to change party leaders sounds like a decision they would have to make and then do. If they were ever going to add the ability to change party leaders you would have expected it to be in the game.

Project planning, development etc. When you make changes to one module, it affects the rest, and it has to be tested and so forth. As a n00b system developer I find it totally plausable that they had ideas there was no time to realize (completely) before the deadline. The game had already been postponed too long, it was sufficient to be released as a main title FF game, they needed to get it out on the market due to company strategy, stocks etc.

 

[ForceStealer]

About Snow, the class system in the new games is arbitrary, because none of the characters have a backstory that could possibly justify training in a martial art (or for that matter, combat at all).

Final Fantasy is no longer a multi-act story bringing a diverse group of adventurers together with a unified goal, each joining up as the main party comes across them or they decide to act. Nowadays, Final Fantasy is about introducing a cast of characters who are all already tied into the main conflict, and all half-way through the story. No one should be monk class in FFXIII because everyone is a bum from some beach town. Sabin trained in the mountains with a mystic monk for years. If the dude unleashes a mystic power, I know why. It seems like the cast of FFXIII stumbled upon weapons (literally in Vanille's case) and became immediately proficient in them.

I could understand if that only happened after they became l'Cie, as if the fal'Cie was like that guy from Power Rangers, only a dick. But no all of these people have these random powers and abilities simply because of the rule of Cool.

One of my main issues with post-IX in medias res is that now one of FF's most prized plot devices is the surprising reveal of an ability or piece of information that is presented for shock value in the introductory scenes, and then explained later. Unfortunately, FFXIII dropped the whole "explain later" with most of it, and applied shock-reveals to everything in the first six hours of the story. Every single thing. How Lightning resisted the glowing-robe thing, her snap power, the existence of a resistance, the fal'Cie, the l'Cie, who Serah is, the Purge, Psicorps, every relationship and goal of every character is hidden from the player for the first few dungeons, if it's revealed at all.

Also, Spoony is at some of his snarky best here. I dig these reviews, and fucking hated this game, so go him.

Spoony didn't say any of that though. He made like 2 references to "what's a fal'cie?" and spent the rest of the time complaining about stuff that's so...inconsequential. No matter how much "training" any FF character has, it would never be enough for the things they end up accomplishing. (Also there is no point at which Vanille is not a l'Cie in the game, she is the entire time.)

The snark about Snow being able to punch thing didn't bother me THAT much, it was just an example of how his petty nitpicks used to be clever analyses, and now they're just...petty nitpicks. He made fun of Zell saying his weapons were just "these fists o' mine!" but he didn't spend all this time going on about how it was stupid that Zell can kill people that have guns with his fists.

If the fact that Sabin trained on a mountain is enough for you to accept that he can throw a sentient train like it's nothing, I don't see why Snow's magitek-ish coat gives him his abilities is worthy of such vitriol. XIII's problem is that they don't EXPLAIN any of this shit. Not that it exists.

 

[AerithLives]

Spoony is absolutely 100% right. The ff13 series has gone down the pan. FF8 was good but looking back at it a bit older you realise how ridiculous it was. 9 passed but then the series snowballed in to a pit of stupidity. Perhaps they were ok in some ways but not games to be taken seriously. The standard has and keeps on slipping to new lows.
FF13 especially was a total abortion. None of it made sense, the characters were shallow and I didn't know or care with what was happening. Whatever happened to the good old days of being sucked in to a world and suddenly vanishing from your social circle for weeks on end?

 

[Cthulhu]

Whatever happened to the good old days of being sucked in to a world and suddenly vanishing from your social circle for weeks on end?

You grew up,

 

[Fangu]

Whatever happened to the good old days of being sucked in to a world and suddenly vanishing from your social circle for weeks on end?

You grew up,

um

*goes back to grinding for XIII Platinum*

 

[Dawnbreaker]

I agree that FFXIII sucks balls, it just does, sorry. I mean there are definitely worse games out there (aka FFVIII) but that game is one long painful haul. I only played about 8 or so hours of it, so consider that when you read my post, but in the end I just couldn't force myself to go on. The March Ever Forward Syndrome, the dumbed down battle system and the ridiculously stupid looking design just killed it for me.

That said, I don't agree with a lot of what the Angry Video Game Nerd said. He trashed how the game lacked realism, but seems to forget that the game is in a FANTASY world. He complains that there are no random useless items in the shops, but hey, what's the point of that? I'm going to clarify that I only watched half the review, so I might have missed some points he made that would have made me more pleased with it, but what I did see didn't impress me much. I just feel like he's nit-picking (as said) like every random nerd who spends too much time in the basement and not enough time showering.

Of course my feelings might be colored by Zero's review of the game, which was even more ridiculous. I mean, did Zero even play an RGP before FFXIII? Doesn't he know what battle sequences are, etc.?

As a friend of mine once said though, maybe I'm focusing too much on the lack of actual review and ignoring the pure amusement factor of it. And if I can do that, I'll probably like these more.

 

[Cthulhu]

um

*goes back to grinding for XIII Platinum*

You admitted that XIII was pretty much your first FF game, so yes, that one will still absorb you, like a lot of people on here did with VII; I'm pretty sure you'll be disappointed terribly with FFXVI, . My main point was about people's evolution; cynical game reviewers of today will go 'omg zelda and mario were the best games ever', and/or do that about FFVII. Since then they've played a billion games, but none had the same magic like the first one.

Games are kinda like heroin, in that respect,

 

[Vendel]

That said, I don't agree with a lot of what the Angry Video Game Nerd said.

So what did you think of the Spoony review?

 

[ForceStealer]

I think you're absolutely right, Yop. But in Spoony's case, I jsut don't think he really likes Final Fantasy - or JRPGs, besides a few SMT games.

I think he likes 6 and 7. 1 is the only earlier one I've heard him mention. We know he doesn't like 8, 10, 10-2, 12, or 13. And he refuses to play 9 based solely on its art style.

So...I just don't think they're his thing, valid criticisms or not. Not that that means he shouldn't review them, I just mean I don't know if it's fatigue that colors his criticism. He just doesn't like the games.

 

[Cthulhu]

Well then why bother actually playing the games?

Oh right, angry game reviewers that gets paid to bitch about games, . Zero Punctuation is on a similar note, except condensed into a couple minutes instead of two hours (or however long that Spoony fellow keeps going), which I find much more entertaining, .

 

[Flintlock]

cynical game reviewers of today will go 'omg zelda and mario were the best games ever', and/or do that about FFVII. Since then they've played a billion games, but none had the same magic like the first one.

Hmm. I take your point, but I don't think those two series are good points of comparison, as they have both had very popular and critically acclaimed games in the last couple of years.

The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword (2011) has a rating of 93 on Metacritic. Super Mario Galaxy 2 (2010) scores even higher with 97. No Final Fantasy title has scored as highly as either of those two games since Final Fantasy IX, which came out in... 2000.

 

[Vendel]

I think you're absolutely right, Yop. But in Spoony's case, I jsut don't think he really likes Final Fantasy - or JRPGs, besides a few SMT games.

I think he likes 6 and 7. 1 is the only earlier one I've heard him mention. We know he doesn't like 8, 10, 10-2, 12, or 13. And he refuses to play 9 based solely on its art style.

So...I just don't think they're his thing, valid criticisms or not. Not that that means he shouldn't review them, I just mean I don't know if it's fatigue that colors his criticism. He just doesn't like the games.

Well if you recall in part 10 of his VIII review he does a parody of himself and picks apart the first Final Fantasy.
http://spoonyexperiment.com/2009/04/01/final-fantasy-part-10-time-loop/
Or as he put it - "This was essentially my way of doing a funny review of a good game, and seeing who would take the flamebait."

So I get the impression that he really enjoyed the series up to 7. And then things started going downhill.

 

[Ite]

Another note on the magic coat, yes it's believable in FF logic, but it makes Snow -- as a character -- totally expendable. If he dies, someone else could just put on the coat and you wouldn't lose anything. I would actually prefer that. In that scene when he holds up the coat to draw enemy fire, he's damaging the only thing about his character that is of any use.

Spoony's last remark in Part II, the bit about playing these games out of obligation, really spoke to me. I gave up hope for the FF series years ago... but I linger here, in the fandom, phantom-like, despite the continued dissolution of even the older titles into hollow shells of what they were. The more I learn about the OG on here, the more love and passion I have for a game I started twelve years ago this week. But for every bit of enlightenment I get about a rich and involved story, I get ten pieces of information about the Compilation Canon that I would rather not know, that only dilute my enjoyment of something that still speaks to me. I need to go rethink my life.

Spoony should play Final Fantasy IX, the fucking twat.

 

[ForceStealer]

If it's such a ponderous "obligation," then he should just play IX then. That's always my trump card when people act like Spoony is this enlightening visionary in the world of fiction (no one here, of course, but they exist), that he would refuse to play a game he would probably like for such a stupid reason. Why would he refuse to play IX on the basis of art style but feel "obligated" to play XIII, a game which looks pretty obviously like something he'd hate even without playing it.

 

[Elisa Maza]

I don't know if it's off topic (it probably is), but MarzGurl from TGWTG started her own review on FFXIII.

http://thatguywiththeglasses.com/vi...marzgurl-reviews-final-fantasy-xiii-episode-1

She's an old player of the series, so i thought that taken from someone who loved the games before, it would ring differently from Spoony's.

That being said, even though I saw many details in his review that aren't that important, I agree with much he said. Especially the hallway thing.

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

Blinded by Light > non stop Victory Theme. Yeah I went there A lot of these "complaints" are really silly I think. Y no I don't have to hear the exact same three themes every single time thx Especially since I think some of FFXIII's faster paced themes work better with FFXIII's faster themed nature

Anyway I can only stomach so much of these reviews, usually bail out before I see any more bashing of the battle system which is one of my most favourite/best/most complex of the series to me (Gestalt/TP boost for Vanille's Poison/Gestalt trick, the Death Commando trick for dealing massive damage with Vanille's Death anyone? Check. Also known as Buffering it can also be used with Serah's Ultima Arrow in XIII-2 though Vanille can spam hers unlike Serah. The Buffering method can also be used to buffer your heals/elemental raga spells/carry over damage reduction from Sentinel from a round, etc. It's pretty neat )

So yeah I haven't enjoyed the series as much as this since FFVII (ok, well FFX was up there too), FFXIII series is easily up there with the VII series amongst my favourites. I dunno a cast just hasn't felt as bright, vibrant, real, "alive" since then until now. Vanille's easily my most favourite character after Aerith since behind the bright and cheery, caring/sweet nature there is some delicious darkness inside with the hiding away of pain/guilt/grief/etc trying to cope and be strong for others. Plus the

Spoiler

sacrifices at the end

I really did/do have a blast with the battle system in all sorts of ways each time I play it too - dealing 999'999 over and over again with Vanille yesu Haven't played it for a while though been playing Tales of Graces F!

 

[Kuja9001]

Spoony didn't say any of that though. He made like 2 references to "what's a fal'cie?" and spent the rest of the time complaining about stuff that's so...inconsequential. No matter how much "training" any FF character has, it would never be enough for the things they end up accomplishing. (Also there is no point at which Vanille is not a l'Cie in the game, she is the entire time.)

The snark about Snow being able to punch thing didn't bother me THAT much, it was just an example of how his petty nitpicks used to be clever analyses, and now they're just...petty nitpicks. He made fun of Zell saying his weapons were just "these fists o' mine!" but he didn't spend all this time going on about how it was stupid that Zell can kill people that have guns with his fists.

If the fact that Sabin trained on a mountain is enough for you to accept that he can throw a sentient train like it's nothing, I don't see why Snow's magitek-ish coat gives him his abilities is worthy of such vitriol. XIII's problem is that they don't EXPLAIN any of this shit. Not that it exists.

Actually they do but 99% of players don't read.

Antimatter Manipulation Principle (AMP) forms the foundation for variety of technological wonders, enabling phenomena ranging from phase-space interference to the manipulation of gravitational force.
Humans ordinarily lack the means to wield magic, but through the use of manadrives—another product of the principle—it is possible to synthesize its effects.

The strength boosting emblems on Snow's coat are also AMP technology.

 

[AvecAloes]

It's all well and good that stuff like that is buried in the datalog and/or walkthroughs/ultimanias and whatnot, but I think the issue is that it's not mentioned during gameplay at all, unlike previous installments of FF which tended to give "spoken" explanations for stuff like this. XIII's datalog is quite honestly a little intimidating.

 

[Fangu]

Gestalt/TP boost for Vanille's Poison/Gestalt trick, the Death Commando trick for dealing massive damage with Vanille's Death anyone? Check. Also known as Buffering it can also be used with Serah's Ultima Arrow in XIII-2 though Vanille can spam hers unlike Serah. The Buffering method can also be used to buffer your heals/elemental raga spells/carry over damage reduction from Sentinel from a round, etc. It's pretty neat )

Aaaaa! So what you're saying is if you have a full TP bar and inflict the beast with Poison, Death will do 999,999 every time? Do you need the Genji Glove equipped? I only recently learned about Gestalt: TP charge and I have been playing this game a lot.

This is the cool thing about XIII. A lot of people didn't bother with the post game stuff, so it's kind of a new game exploring these things.

Sorry for the off topic people

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

Not exactly

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40gGBgUAvUM

It's two different strategies/set ups which can be utilised effectively together - Poison/Gestalt is getting Poison on the target and going into Gestalt mode and slowing drawing the Gestalt by letting the needle run low every time before using Chain Cannons, and you keep dragging out Chain Cannons spam until you run out of GP which maximises the effectiveness of Poison drain, in this game the Poison status is extremely effective and can take off millions of HP enabling Vanille to take out Long Guis with quite low/non uber max stats while the Poison is combined with her Death Commando mode/the Buffering trick. Death Commando is casting Death while in the SAB role then switching to Commando while Vanille is casting so it's damage is boosted by the Commando role damage modifiers when it hits, then switching back to SAB and doing it again. Since Death doesn't reset the stagger bar you can do it over and over again all the while maintaining high damage (well at least until the enemy is ded ) Death can also be effected by the elemental En spells like Enfire so it can do even more damage by hitting elemental weaknesses which you can inflict with Vanille/Fang's Imperil spell Plus the bonus of Death scoring an instant hit kill and just taking out the target immediately with it's instant death status effect like vs the Adamantoise, a nice bonus when that happens. Later on at high/max stats Vanille can take out a Long Gui in 1.15~ while using a summon to knock out the legs or in 2.09~ while using Death > COM to deal with legs. That's another thing I forgot to mention Death is also defence piercing so it doesn't hit damage resistances, so for example it's a great way to deal with turtle legs like Highwind

Yeah I agree, on my replay I decided to do as many missions and stuff before clearing the main story as well, including backtracking and doing turtles, etc after the boss at the end Chapter 11, I also had some ultimate weapons by Chapter 13

I've also been following a thread on GameFAQs where people have been doing all the missions and turtles and stuff at Stage 8 Crystarium only which is quite amazing

 

[Fangu]

Not exactly

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40gGBgUAvUM

HOLY COW

I didn't know you could take down the Long Gui legs with a Summon?! I always thought you had to take him without Summon.

That video is truly impressive. And your description, thank you!! And again it just makes me excited about how much about this game I still haven't tried yet. This is a 200 hours game for sure.

I've also been following a thread on GameFAQs where people have been doing all the missions and turtles and stuff at Stage 8 Crystarium only which is quite amazing

Yeah Lex told me about people doing 'no Crystarium challenges' yesterday, I just can't believe it's possible to go through the game without even leveling!! How do you get through without the spells? Impressive.

 

[Splintered]

It's all well and good that stuff like that is buried in the datalog and/or walkthroughs/ultimanias and whatnot, but I think the issue is that it's not mentioned during gameplay at all, unlike previous installments of FF which tended to give "spoken" explanations for stuff like this. XIII's datalog is quite honestly a little intimidating.

I think this is the major problem, and why towns and optional are so important. They are both fairly shameless exposition dumps, but it so much easier to navigate and less boring/intimidating.

I do sometimes get frustrated with huge onslaughts of XIII criticism, but imo, if it wasn't for people raging at Square so hard, they wouldn't have rectified that part in XIII-2. Sure lots of people still don't consider XIII-2 a good game, but as someone who enjoyed the original, the reintroduction of background through dialogue and NPCs made the game that much more enjoyable, and I think the critics are to thank for that.

Another note on the magic coat, yes it's believable in FF logic, but it makes Snow -- as a character -- totally expendable. If he dies, someone else could just put on the coat and you wouldn't lose anything. I would actually prefer that. In that scene when he holds up the coat to draw enemy fire, he's damaging the only thing about his character that is of any use.

Spoiler: lengthy story and gameplay Snow rant

Maybe gameplay wise, but not thematically? IMO I felt the first 9 chapters of XIII were about how badly people react to horrible fates, Lightning+Hope reacting by directing their anger at innocent people, Sazh and Vanille running away from their problems, with Fang and Snow both rushing headlong to finish their focus. Only Fang is way too realistic about it and Snow is so knee deep in denial over every little thing that when the Big Bad actually proves to him that he is wrong that he slips into a blue screen of death moment. This only works with Snow and his character, being obnoxiously stubborn and naive (only not as naive as he would be made.

The difference between chapters 1-9 and 10-12 is that the first chapters they are "My fate is l'cie, I can't change that, what can I do?" and then "They SAY my fate is to be a l'cie, why the fuck should I accept that just because they told me"

But other than, Snow does have experience. NORA is pretty clearly trained, every member has a weapon, they are seen training civilians in the beginning, and they even have a really cheesy motto that kind of shows this "The army is no match for NORA" makes it seem that they look down on the military or that they feel they are superior. That and around chapter 8(or 7?), Lightning states specifically that NORA has long been established, and she views them as very irresponsible. The prequel novels and the datalog specify the details of what they do (neighborhood watch against encroaching wildlife).

They SHOULD have had someone state it specifically in game, even though this is a detail that is neither important nor has any real consequence other than background information, so it makes sense why they decided to keep it in the datalog. It's just a bad choice in general because it's so weighty and lots of people skip it.

That said, gameplay Snow is strong... but being a Commando/physical fighter actually isn't his specialty. He's a good one, mind you, but Snow is outclassed as a damage dealer by both Lightning and Fang, and if Lightning has Gladius, she also has better physical damage (so much so that some gamers rather use him as a mage than a physical striker). In fact, he wasn't really doing anything fancy when he fights, does he? I rarely used the guy but it was mostly generic punches and kicks.

Snow's specialty is actually being a Sentinel, he has more HP than everyone else and good SEN abilities. And it's fairly easy to see where that comes, he looks like a huge wall of HP, and it's evident in game since Lightning has a habit of punching him and he barely reacts, along with his amazing ability to run straight into barriers and be blown away, without flinching. In fact in XIII-2, it feels like there's a stronger emphasis on Snow's SENs abilities, (in the flan fight cinematic action), and he's used as a SEN monster as well.

Okay now I'm done. I'm not trying to say there are a lot of legitimate complaints because there are tons (I didn't even know that Cocoon was that huge moon in the sky until I was halfway through Gran Pulse), but nitpicks are one of those things that get me simply because I also have a lot of nitpicky answers.

 

[AvecAloes]

Splintered, will you be my personal XIII mentor?

But no, I completely agree with everything you say. And as an aside, I didn't use Snow very much either, as I found Fang to be more useful as a damage dealer, and she was a good Sentinel as well. Also I didn't want to punch her everytime she talked.

I really liked XIII, and I had a lot of fun with XIII-2. I can understand the reasons that people give for not like these games, but I don't think the issues are as big of a deal as a lot of people make them out to be, honestly. Also, I think a lot of it comes down to personal taste, not necessarily what is actually wrong with the game.