Sudden Realizations

[minimosey]

Are you saying Aerith built him a new body or something?

No, not really. I'm not sure how to describe it, just that spiritual/physical matters aren't that strongly divided in the VII world. To me, that's how the line always came off so that's just how I took it.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Anyways, I figure there was some time- how long I don't know- between Cloud's dunking and his waking.

According to the time-line for ACC, the explosion was in the late afternoon on Day 2 and Cloud wakes up in the church in the late morning of Day 3. Twelve hours sounds about right.

 

[Tifabelle]

According to the time-line for ACC, the explosion was in the late afternoon on Day 2 and Cloud wakes up in the church in the late morning of Day 3. Twelve hours sounds about right.

Well, on the assumption that AVALANCHE brought his body. And of course, if they had to search for it...

So there's a 12 hours from when he blew up to when he wakes up. So 12 hours if they found his body right away.

 

[Lord Noctis]

Holy shit! Good to see you back EG!

Anyway, I've never really had something just click into place. Most things I figured out gradualy.

As for Cloud, being thrown into the church by the explosion is possible. A big explosion like that could certainly throw you a long ways, provided it didn't rip you to pieces. Of course its also possible that AVALANCHE took him there. I think either explenation works really.

 

[Ryushikaze]

According to the time-line for ACC, the explosion was in the late afternoon on Day 2 and Cloud wakes up in the church in the late morning of Day 3. Twelve hours sounds about right.

Yes, I'm aware, but not all of that time is with Cloud in the Water, or so I presume, anyways.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

They had just put him in, and thus he had been able to return. Without the healing help of the water, he was still in the whitespace. My guess is that he spent the most of time there, as they were carrying him to the church, not in the water. As for why it feels so short... Near-death experience makes the passing of time subjective, I guess?

We really don't know if he had just been put in the water or not. Sure, there's the image of Cloud falling and "landing" in the white space a moment before, but as you said, near-death experience makes the passing of time subjective.

He could have been there for quite a long time between the landing and the waking.

And I agree with Ryu about there not being a reason to think the children put Cloud in the water. They just had their hands on him is all.

P.S. Had Tifa got a phone in ACC? I thought she got one only after, since we see it only in DoC...

No reason to think she didn't have one at the time of ACC. Marlene seemed shocked that Vincent didn't have one, so she's probably used to everyone else having a phone.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

That's probably what happened. I mean, all the members are around him when he wakes up. That's one of the things that really confuses me.

Another thing is with Tseng and Elena. I always thought they had gotten killed in the begining of the movie (the gunshots, Reno sounds like he's pissed), but yet when Rufus is healed Aeris' Holy Rain (or whatever it's called), the two are right there with him. Am I seeing things?

Don't forget, Vincent also mentions rescuing them from Kadaj and the other Remnants after they were tortured for information on where to find "Mother." I too thought they were supposed at first upon my initial viewing of this movie, up until Kadaj brought out their ID cards when he was interrogating Rufus at Healen Lodge.

Well, looks like I'm mostly alone with my "fell through the roof yet again" theory, but that's cool. Like I said, it works for me, and it makes me smile, even if Occam's Razor does support "AVALANCHE just carried him there." And to whichever of you asked if "a wizard did it" was really that far out considering? Really it would be no harder to swallow than my theory

Also, thanks for all the welcome backs and such. I missed this place.

Edit: Gotta get used to reading the whole list of replies before posting again, I totally missed this one:

We really don't know if he had just been put in the water or not. Sure, there's the image of Cloud falling and "landing" in the white space a moment before, but as you said, near-death experience makes the passing of time subjective.

He could have been there for quite a long time between the landing and the waking.

^Something of note on this, whether the explosion threw Cloud into the Church or not, I agree with this part. Even without the fact that the near-death experience might alter his perception of time to make it seem shorter than it actually was, who's to say Cloud immediately died or had his near-death experience the moment the explosion went off? He could easily have been laying wherever he wound up, crippled but still viable, for hours before slipping into the state that allowed his consciousness to enter the Lifestream and have his moment with Aerith and Zack. Thus, his actual time in the white space could really have been just as short as it seemed with the timeline still accurate.

 

[kitikat]

I have recently realized something new, so I've thought that it might fit to this thread. It's not very important, but it's interesting because that happened in very short period of time.

When the party comes to the Aerith's house after Sector 7 destruction, they talked with Elmyra about Aerith and her escape (with Marlene) from Sector 7. In the beginning of the whole scene:
Elmyra: "I know. They took her from here."
Cloud: "They were here?"
Elmyra: "That's what Aeris wanted"

so I imagined that Tseng found Aerith in the house and made her go with him. But after Elmyra's story about Aerith, there is little more text:

Elmyra: "She brought a little girl here. Tseng found them on their way here. She probably wasn't fast enough to get away. She decided to go to the Shinra in exchange for the little girl's safety."

So, what is the true version of this situation? The only one version, which makes sense with both pieces of dialogue is that Aerith and Marlene managed to get to house, but Aerith didn't succeed in getting away from _home_ before Tseng arrived. I know that it is not so important, but it occured in one scene, so either I'm missing something or they made a really stupid mistake.

 

[Elisa Maza]

... I've just realized that Cloud posed five times in nine seconds before attacking Bahamut in ACC.

...

WHAT?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I have recently realized something new, so I've thought that it might fit to this thread. It's not very important, but it's interesting because that happened in very short period of time.

When the party comes to the Aerith's house after Sector 7 destruction, they talked with Elmyra about Aerith and her escape (with Marlene) from Sector 7. In the beginning of the whole scene:
Elmyra: "I know. They took her from here."
Cloud: "They were here?"
Elmyra: "That's what Aeris wanted"

so I imagined that Tseng found Aerith in the house and made her go with him. But after Elmyra's story about Aerith, there is little more text:

Elmyra: "She brought a little girl here. Tseng found them on their way here. She probably wasn't fast enough to get away. She decided to go to the Shinra in exchange for the little girl's safety."

So, what is the true version of this situation? The only one version, which makes sense with both pieces of dialogue is that Aerith and Marlene managed to get to house, but Aerith didn't succeed in getting away from _home_ before Tseng arrived. I know that it is not so important, but it occured in one scene, so either I'm missing something or they made a really stupid mistake.

I'm not seeing a contradiction, really. Aerith took Marlene to her house, Tseng spotted them on the way there and followed them, Aerith wasn't moving fast enough to prevent Tseng from following them/knowing which way they were going, and she then left with him from her house in exchange for Marlene's safety.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Or even intercepted them on the way there but allowed Aerith to drop Marlene off at the house in exchange for coming willingly.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

^This was my thought exactly. Its shown in several places throughout the OG and Compilation that Tseng has a soft spot for Aerith, and that the Turks are professionals when it comes to their jobs. They bear no personal ill will towards the party during the story, aside from some professional pride coming into play after early defeats. Note that if its their day off, they'll ignore orders to engage Cloud and his bunch entirely. So, considering that they weren't ordered/being paid to hurt, kidnap, or otherwise harm Marlene (who to them would be some random girl, they'd have no idea she was the adopted daughter of AVALANCHE's leader), it seems totally in character for Tseng, after using her as leverage to gain Aerith's cooperation and then giving his word not to let her be harmed once that cooperation is given, to follow through by escorting her back to her house to drop off the kid, then take her back to HQ.

Btw, this is a good one Kitkat. I don't personally care if the thing you've suddenly realized is "important" or not, this is just the sort of thing I started this thread for.

As for Cloud's impressive rapid-fire posing skills, I wonder who comes out ahead in a pose off between AC/C Cloud and DoC Vincent. Too bad thedarkid didn't actually put in a pose tally for his LP.

 

[kitikat]

Thanks, EverybodysGrudge . Well, that one situation can be logically explained, of course, but it is not 100% obvious....IMHO. I mean, we can't definitely say that Ariadne's or Ryu's versions are true - but they're very, very probable.

Another thing which bothers me is whether Cait Sith is only a mere puppet of Reeve or not. In most situations we can believe that it's true (especially just after Diamond Weapon invasion, when Reeve asks team (using Cait Sith) whether they come to Midgar or not to stop Hojo). But of course there is a single and notable (IMHO) exception - just a moment before Cait Sith no. 1 gets the Black Materia....he says:

"Don't forget me even if another Cait Sith comes along."

Even if we assume (what is very possible) that Cait Sith has its own AI module and it's not controlled by Reeve all the time, that sounds weird. Regular machines don't show emotions in FF7 world. What do you think?

 

[Ryushikaze]

Ooh, now that's some worms you've opened. The answer, technically, is yes AND no.

Because Cait Sith's not a machine. He's a golem given life by Reeve. He's both part of and distinct from Reeve. Think of him as Reeve's other personality, mixed in with some Pinocchio and Geppeto.

 

[Madame Mayor]

Its shown in several places throughout the OG and Compilation that Tseng has a soft spot for Aerith

yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay

 

[kitikat]

Ooh, now that's some worms you've opened. The answer, technically, is yes AND no.

Because Cait Sith's not a machine. He's a golem given life by Reeve. He's both part of and distinct from Reeve. Think of him as Reeve's other personality, mixed in with some Pinocchio and Geppeto.

Well, that makes sense, but on the other hand, Reeve still can fully control it, talking directly to the AVALANCHE in aforementioned situation. I don't remember whether the 2nd Cait Sith has the full knowledge about party members, history of the recent events, etc., which the 1st Cait Sith had. If Cait Sith is the other personality, we may assume that you can somehow "copy" your feelings and character easily? That would be necessary in order to quickly create new Cait Sith. Besides this, I must admit that your theory makes the biggest sense at all .

 

[OWA-2]

Hey everyone, miss me? No? At least remember who I am? Bah, fine then.

I remember you.

he was blown into the air and landed in the church

I'm the only one who finds this extremely funny to imagine?


On-topic, it took me some time to understand that the Whirlwind-Maze wasn't just the Crater's rim, but the Crater's hole itself, and that the final dungeon is a new and deeper hole/crater that appeared after the Maze collapsed.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Cait Sith always seemed to me to be under Reeve's control, and available for use as a communications device when he needed to talk to the party directly, and have a bit of his own personality and thoughts. He has to do whatever Reeve assigns, and Reeve can clearly take full control of him when he wants/needs to, but the rest of the time he is free to think and feel his own way. In the OG you could usually tell who was in control during the talky parts by the manner of speech used, if somewhat formal and polite its Reeve talking through the cat, if its laid back and informal its the cat itself. I'm curious, in the original version Cait had a Kansai accent/dialect correct? What accent and dialect were used for Reeve's lines? Considering the quality of translation in the OG it might be even easier to discern the lines as being Reeve or Cait if Reeve speaks with say a Kanto dialect instead. After all, there were several moments in the OG where I wasn't sure, as the lines were an odd mix of proper, formal wording with informal language indicated by the use of words like "wanna" and "waitin'" and such. Perhaps those were moments where both Cait and Reeve had essentially the same thing to say?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

If I remember correctly, Reeve does speak with a Kanto dialect. Pretty sure that's right, but hito will hopefully correct me if I'm wrong. Cait Sith definitely has a Kansai, though.

I actually thought the English translation of the original game did a really good job with their dialogue.

Ooh, now that's some worms you've opened. The answer, technically, is yes AND no.

Because Cait Sith's not a machine. He's a golem given life by Reeve. He's both part of and distinct from Reeve. Think of him as Reeve's other personality, mixed in with some Pinocchio and Geppeto.

I still think this Inspire concept is the shittiest idea that ever came out of anything FFVII-related, if only because it's so vaguely defined. Seemingly Cait Sith must have some AI of his own due to situations where it talks when Reeve was unable to control him, like in Before Crisis -- but then the question does also come up that if Reeve magically brought this little fucker to life, can it be called AI at all or should it be considered genuine sentience? For that matter, even if it is AI, could it not still be of a high enough level to be classified as sentient, a la Robo from "Chrono Trigger"?

Also, what is the limit of what Reeve can bring to life? Is it just stuffed animals? Could it include guns? Could it even include buildings, as Shademp once joked?

And when Reeve does control him directly, how is that performed? Telepathically? We've never seen him operating any controls.

Another thing which bothers me is whether Cait Sith is only a mere puppet of Reeve or not. In most situations we can believe that it's true (especially just after Diamond Weapon invasion, when Reeve asks team (using Cait Sith) whether they come to Midgar or not to stop Hojo). But of course there is a single and notable (IMHO) exception - just a moment before Cait Sith no. 1 gets the Black Materia....he says:

"Don't forget me even if another Cait Sith comes along."

Even if we assume (what is very possible) that Cait Sith has its own AI module and it's not controlled by Reeve all the time, that sounds weird. Regular machines don't show emotions in FF7 world. What do you think?

Maybe Reeve was just being silly with that line. He's got to have a really silly side to him.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

If I remember correctly, Reeve does speak with a Kanto dialect. Pretty sure that's right, but hito will hopefully correct me if I'm wrong. Cait Sith definitely has a Kansai, though.

Isn't that the name of the region of the first Pokemon game?

Oh my god it all makes sense now.

/offtopic

 

[Ryushikaze]

Isn't that the name of the region of the first Pokemon game?

Oh my god it all makes sense now.

/offtopic

All the main series Pokemon games up til Black and White have been loosely based on regions of Japan.

RBGY was Kanto, GSC was the region around Kyoto, RSE was Kyushu and the Sevii Islands, DPP was Hokkaido.
BW? is New York, apparently
The two Gamecube games took place in America, If I remember correctly. I know Orre is nevada, at least.

And Tres, I did say she'd just opened a can of worms before answering the question.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Hey, Grudgers, I remember you. After my eyes stopped bleeding, I wondered where you'd gone. Nice to see you back. I have Polaroids now.

 

[Tifabelle]

I still think this Inspire concept is the shittiest idea that ever came out of anything FFVII-related,

It really is. I pretend it doesn't exist.

Seemingly Cait Sith must have some AI of his own due to situations where it talks when Reeve was unable to control him, like in Before Crisis -- but then the question does also come up that if Reeve magically brought this little fucker to life, can it be called AI at all or should it be considered genuine sentience? For that matter, even if it is AI, could it not still be of a high enough level to be classified as sentient, a la Robo from "Chrono Trigger"?

I don't have encylopedic knowledge like you on the subject, but Reeve used Inspire on Cait Sith? I thought Cait Sith was fully AI robot, and he used Inspire on the Moogle. I figure Cait Sith acts on his own the majority of the time, and Reeve can assume control when necessary.

Now with that, I assumed Cait Sith's memories are downloaded to a database, which is probably why future Cait Sith's retain knowledge of people/places/events etc.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Well, even with Cait Sith being magic, everything that would apply were he just a robot would be true too. Reeve would be the backup database.

I figure it's something like an autonomous appendage.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

And Tres, I did say she'd just opened a can of worms before answering the question.

True enough, but it's one of those cans that wasn't big enough to contain its worms to begin with.

It really is. I pretend it doesn't exist.

You almost have to in order to make sense of it. =(

This isn't quite like FFVIII's setting where Ellone's special ability just being there is as easy to accept. It's an otherwise established part of the setting there that some people have higher magical affinities than others, so it's easier to swallow that someone might just be born with a magical power like hers, for whatever reason.

In FFVII's setting even, there are people that are inherently special. Aerith, obviously. Cloud as well, due to no less than three miraculous feats he pulled off even before being enhanced by Hojo (surviving the fall at Mt. Nibel with just scratches on his knees while trying to save Tifa, using a Raven's sword in BC, and everything he did in the reactor in Mt. Nibel when Sephiroth destroyed the village).

Those don't incite a wtf reaction quite as much because they're explained to some degree. Aerith is a Cetra, and, thus, more connected to the planet than most people, etc., while Cloud's probably just one of a lucky few who is able to draw upon his spirit energy more easily than others (though the established metaphysics make it clear that anyone can Limit Break, so Cloud's not special in an inhuman way to begin with).

But then with Reeve you've got this guy who can make stuffed animals walk around and talk on their own. And beat up bad guys. And no one else has this ability, it's not explained to any degree whatsoever, we don't even know what the process looks like, etc.

So, yeah, it's fucking retarded. They should have just stuck to Cait Sith being a robot. Hell, they could have even said he did it with a special materia and that would have been an improvement. There would still be questions that could be raised about the limits of this materia's ability, but at least the explanation for Cait Sith would be utilizing metaphysics that play so much of a role elsewhere, rather than some new ones from nowhere.

I don't have encylopedic knowledge like you on the subject, but Reeve used Inspire on Cait Sith? I thought Cait Sith was fully AI robot, and he used Inspire on the Moogle. I figure Cait Sith acts on his own the majority of the time, and Reeve can assume control when necessary.

Reeve's 10th Anniversary Ultimania profile seems to indicate that he used Inspire on both the moogle and the cat, though: "By utilizing his special ability, 'Inspire', he is able to cause inorganic things to emit life; his 'child', the 'cat'-shaped robot, Cait Sith can be controlled from a great distance." The one idea seems to lead into the other, and they're even in the same sentence.

Even were it just the moogle, though, that still leaves us with the unanswered questions about the parameters of this Shit Inspire ability. =(

Now with that, I assumed Cait Sith's memories are downloaded to a database, which is probably why future Cait Sith's retain knowledge of people/places/events etc.

Don't see why that wouldn't be possible.