Suggestions for improvements

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Clearly mods/admins, your modus operandi is to "Bash anyone who disagrees with us."

I'm out of this thread. Saying anymore will probably get me banned again.

@Octo: Oh yes I have. For being a dick/going over the limit during the whole Aaron thing. Not complaining about that one. I was wrong.
 
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Octo

KULT OF KERMITU
AKA
Octo, Octorawk, Clarky Cat, Kissmammal2000
^You've never actually been banned ever.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
@Octo: Oh yes I have. For being a dick/going over the limit during the whole Aaron thing. Not complaining about that one. I was wrong.
You were not banned. You left the forum for a while after that at your own choosing (here's your farewell thread).

You did receive an infraction for your comments in Aaron's farewell thread, but you had already posted that you were leaving before that infraction was even issued.
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
Clearly mods/admins, your modus operandi is to "Bash anyone who disagrees with us."

I'm out of this thread.

Oh my gods, you figured us all out. The whole website that we've made is just a giant ruse. This is totally an accurate depiction of how we act. This is not at all what happens when we're on our last-ditch effort to finally resolve the equivalent of a months-long broken record about the Thanks thread with Starling.
(In case anyone forgot that TLS had installed a sarcasm font).
(Also, that ridiculous claim is why I didn't Thanks your post).

Also, FWIW – I wasn't bashing YOU about the Metro theme or by not Thanks-ing it. I literally hate everything about that flat visual style ever since it first came out, and slowly took over every App and UI that it could touch. I'd rather browse a Comic Sans'd Geocities-ized version of TLS if it came right down to it. – But that is MY PERSONAL OPINION and I am absolutely welcome to express it. If a bunch of other members really want a Metro type theme for TLS, then they're more than welcome to have one configured if someone makes it. There're TONS of themes for the site and no one is preventing anyone from making or from using them. I know that I'll happily enjoy my little legacy theme until the end of time, or until such a time as modern content stops looking so utterly terrible.


Additionally, your overly drama(z)tic, sweeping generalization about the Staff isn't really relevant to the main conversation being had here about forum improvements. If you have something to state about Staff's conduct that ~ALSO~ includes examples of said behaviour occurring, go ahead and show us. I'm sure that the forum will be happy to weigh in on it. Hell, you can even make a new thread for it, but let's try and stay focused here.




X :neo:
 

Lex

Administrator
Clearly mods/admins, your modus operandi is to "Bash anyone who disagrees with us."

There is a level of frustration here (from almost everyone with any remote interest in this thread) which is fairly obvious, and yes the staff are becoming increasingly frustrated with certain things because having to write the same tl;dr a bunch of times to explain over and over because shit keeps getting misrepresented and people are being misinformed is a very frustrating thing.

What I'm about to say might cause more shit (because this is something nobody ever likes to hear) but for the purpose of the aforementioned wanting to actually explain; there is a bunch of shit general members don't see that out of respect for members privacy we generally don't put in public unless we have to. Please consider that if you're seeing posts come across a certain way, there's probably a damn good reason for it.

This is the second time Tel, where you've automatically assumed staff just have some sort of vendetta/ agenda rather than maybe thinking there's a bloody good reason for the general tone of some of the posts in here. The first was in Aaron's leaving thread. Every staff member is saying the same shit (including the new ones!) but no, there must be some sort of conspiracy going on here, it's obvious that me, Yop, X, Octo, Force, Joe, Mog and Tres are banding together to be oppressors. Even though we all liked Aaron and didn't want it to come to that. Even though we're taking the time to write our own TL;DRs again and again to discuss/ explain what's been going on. And we STILL cop shit for it. So yeah, a frustrated tone from some staff is to be expected at this point.

For my part, I usually want to let people know how I feel so I'll apologise if I've come across like a cunt, but my motivation for posting in divisive threads like this is always to get people to understand why, because I foolishly (apparently) give a crap how we're perceived. We can't do our job effectively if nobody trusts us and that's why I think it's important, but there are times when all the staff have bent over backwards to accomodate a person or given second/third/fourth chances, and the member still has a problem. In those situations it's on them, not us. Because I do always take the time to try and do that, reactions like this really piss me off Tel. It's unfair to always assume the worst of us when it's our job to deal with the worst of TLS on a constant basis.
 

Dawnbreaker

~The Other Side of Fear~
I don't really have the time to say much (busy n' shit), nor I am completely in-the-know about what's happening here, but I wanted to put out a few things that I thought of:

1. I'm not a fan of the Blind Debate, as I've said elsewhere. I don't care for the reasons it came about and I don't care for what it does..but at the same time, I do recognize the staff's right to implement a solution since they did consider the community's thoughts on it beforehand and did what they thought was best. I respect the staff's right to make a decision, whether I'm in agreement with it or not. That's something the community should do, imo.

2. I didn't like the way things went down with Aaron, and I'm still sad about it. But I've been told some pretty compelling things to make me realize this didn't happen out-of-the-blue or in a vacuum, or whathaveyou. I support the decision, which must have been agonizing for the staff.

It's not easy for me to say that, btw, as Aaron has been a loyal friend to me for a decade and stood by my side when most people didn't. But my personal experiences and feelings are not the basis for making a decision on his standing with the forum.

There's plenty of stuff I will probably never know and, moreover, I respect that I can't know (aka, privacy issues). Again, it might be time for people to understand that while not everything seems to make sense on the outside, there's more to it beyond what we can see.

3. I like the idea of improvements and such, but circling over and over on which is best is really exhausting. This isn't a country; it's a forum. The staff here are doing this as volunteers -- and, having done this job before, I can say it's balls' hard at times. Nit-picking every single rule or guideline is actually somewhat disrespectful of the hard work they do. I know that's not people's intentions, but I can imagine how I would feel in their place and it is definitely frustrating.

4. Not sure how to feel about the PM situation. Honestly, I was surprised and upset when I learned that PMs were distributed among the staff -- I'm not sure what the policy is, but I'm not entirely terribly comfortable with that. I only say that I trust the staff has used this power respectfully and with due consideration of the need.

5. Trust. This is, I think, the main point being debated here. In the end, if you do not trust the staff in general, I recommend perhaps speaking with those you trust most on the staff. If you don't trust any of them, I can only say that I feel sad that you feel that way. Trust is a two-way street, after all, and I feel strongly that if either the staff or the members are feeling a rift, it's on both of their shoulders to bridge it.

Anyways, here's to hoping this doesn't make me That Bitch, or whathaveyou, for simply stating my opinion. I confess to not knowing all the details for various reasons, so take my words with a grain of salt. That said, I'm just as entitled as anyone to it (said opinion, ofc).

Incidentally that was a lot longer than I was expecting. oh well, here's to finishing homework faster than expected! woot!
 
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Ghost X

Moderator
If you can't trust staff, argue it publicly. There's a lot of behind-the-scenes conspiring going on, and that is frankly dishonest and not productive at all. If you can't argue your case here, where all parties can defend themselves, don't argue it at all. If you want to remain anonymous, get a sympathising party to do it for you.

My conclusion of this thread so far is we have three members who take issue with some things and they are blowing it out of proportion. Importantly, they do so without wider support of the community as well. One way to prove this would be to take each issue to a poll (worked great last time :awesome:). If you are so confident you have support, what better way to settle it? Maybe you are not after support though, maybe you are the dictators that you accuse staff of being? Your way or the highway. If there are things that are so critically important to you, but you can't get public support from, perhaps this is not the forum for you. Go make a competitor forum :monster:
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
All the appreciation for those last 3 posts. I don't feel like I need to go into detail, because they're just all great for their own reasons.

Seriously. Thank you.




X :neo:
 

Starling

Pro Adventurer
I'm saying this now because It obviously can't wait until I finish my proper response: Antagonism and general hostility towards people trying to give feedback isn't going to solve anything, no matter how much you disagree with what they said or personally dislike who you're responding to. Correcting Tel on having never been banned is fine. The hostility and antagonism with which it was done is not, nor was the disrespectful manner in which
Why hasn't Yop admin'd you yet? I'm not kidding. Just from that one post alone, in my eyes, you're way more qualified than some of the mods/admins here.

Whether or not you get banned for that post, I fuckin salute you.

Ummmmmm ...because that's not at all how we elect Admins on the site? Don't you know that there are user-polls and other things that we do when promoting Moderators and other members of the Staff? There's this cool thing we do called communicating with our user-base before making massive decisions - especially ones that ACTUALLY affect the entire site.

Also, why are you implying that she'd get banned for posting something like that?
That's a totally fucking absurd thing to even insinuate (which is why I didn't Thanks your post).
just because of the way she worded her gratitude for making this thread, is not. Gabe taking potshots at me
18/06/2016 21:57 [Reaper] http://i.imgur.com/GbU6g.gif
18/06/2016 21:52 [Starling] I'm not even going to start
18/06/2016 21:46 [Reaper] lol being replied to honestly = negative feedback huh
18/06/2016 19:05 [Starling] what kind of documents?
18/06/2016 18:18 [Shademp] Resting and throwing away old documents
18/06/2016 18:09 [Starling] what's everyone been up to today?
18/06/2016 16:40 [Starling] it's OK, it's just there's a lot of negative feedback and not a lot of positive
18/06/2016 16:26 [Dawnbreaker] I'm sorry, dear, but I don't have the time.
18/06/2016 16:21 [Starling] I was really hoping you'd chime in with your thoughts
18/06/2016 16:20 [Dawnbreaker] I honestly do not have the time or energy to discuss any of that thread.
18/06/2016 16:18 [Starling] you should, since it deals with potential rule revisions
18/06/2016 15:54 [Shademp] I've seen the thread title, but I haven't felt the urge to click it.
18/06/2016 15:22 [Starling] In case you haven't seen, I've made a thread about suggestions for improvements on the forum, so if you have anything to add on that subject, it's worth a look
and
Starling,

1. I'm not pursuing it anymore. Decided that it's not worth my time after seeing some of the replies here. Fangu was right. >_>

2. Why hasn't Yop admin'd you yet? I'm not kidding. Just from that one post alone, in my eyes, you're way more qualified than some of the mods/admins here.

Whether or not you get banned for that post, I fuckin salute you.

is not OK.
I absolutely cannot deal with being blunt any longer, so I'm moving on to use obvious, italicized, scathing sarcasm in hopes that it makes this so abundantly clear that you'll finally stop it with this tweaked little version of events you keep spouting.

I'm so glad that you're able to make definitive claims like this, without talking to literally anyone about it. So, since you're so well-informed – Please do inform us where it's stated that it's a permanent fixture and not a trial run. I'll be waiting...

After all, I mean, it's not as if there's some sort of current-event-driven-participation-in-a-hotly-divisive-thread that would serve to live out its lifecycle in a sub-forum that would allow us to speak definitively on the effectiveness of a Thanks-less Sub-Forum or anything.



Now it's time to address the next point:
The complex details of implementing a Thanks-less system on the forums.



To do this, you'll need...

1) A Sub-forum where Thanks is disabled.
- Oh my god, it's almost as if I made one very early on, because that's literally the sole necessary component to test that system. The mind absolutely boggles at why this was done so quickly without user input! There are literally zero other ways that this could have been tested, and I should have made a poll to determine what other things should have been painstakingly researched before such a drastic measure was taken!!

2) Threads to put in that forum.
a) Users communicating directly with staff requested that one thread be moved there immediately because it involves current events, and it stood to benefit greatly from immediate implementation, rather than lolly-gagging about to be voted upon by folks who possibly don't even participate, by using a user poll that doesn't adequately express the wants of the minority!
b) Some users chose to just make NEW threads in that section because they were excited about testing out an immediately available system. They should clearly have waited to see what everyone else thought before doing so.
c) The system was in place for two weeks awaiting this cool, hip, and radical process (that you seem to be incapable of seeing when it's actually done) called "USER FEEDBACK" where the people who actually participate in those thread get to say whether or not a small list of pre-prepared threads should be moved, or should remain where they are.
d) The Subforum is left in place to allow threads that need it to interact organically. Users can move threads to and from the section at their leisure. Being as it's something that impacts an exceptionally small userbase within the already small chunk of active forum users, it doesn't make sense to set a hard limit, but rather check threads for their natural activity and lifecycles to determine if the test of said system is helpful, harmful, or neutral for those involved.



The very last bit to hopefully condense all the tl;dr here is this:

Without talking about a single thing in the past, and focusing in only from this current day on the planet Earth, June the 18th, 2016: WHAT DO YOU ACTUALLY WANT NOW IN REGARDS TO THE THANKS SYSTEM, STARLING?
is not OK. The increasing hostility in this thread in general needs to stop.

I get that people are frustrated but please, take a deep breath and calm down before posting. I suggest we all relist the points we want addressed while cutting out the antagonism. Is anyone else up for that?
 

Dawnbreaker

~The Other Side of Fear~
I have no idea if I'm one of those "three" you're referencing, Ghost, but if I am I kindly and firmly demand you retract your comment. Just because I don't always agree with the way staff does things does not mean it's "my way or the highway" or that I'm some kind of "dictator". I realize I'm just one person with one opinion and that I respect the staff's right to make these decisions, whether I agree with them or not.

Honestly, I'm hoping you're talking about someone else entirely, because otherwise I'm pissed at you.

If I am wrong, then I'm sorry for making such an assumption.
 
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Geostigma

Pro Adventurer
AKA
gabe
Actually Dawn also winging it here but I got the feeling from Ghosts post that likely he was referencing Starling (Obvious due to OP ) , Me (sticking to my guns) , and possibly Telcontar ("calling out" mods). Could be wrong though, but over all I find your post rather agreeable and I'm sure Ghost did not intend to implicate you in his post.

I could be wrong of course but I think your in the clear <3

@Starling.

I mean come on lol. Your telling us to think and calm down before we make a post. While making an emotionally charged post that ignores 100% context of the posts your using as evidence.

The gif has little to do with you and more to do with Tels really silly assertion that people should be adminned regardless of how it's traditionally done because they had an idea once.

In addition his implication of people potentially being banned for posting their thoughts was just underhanded and also a blatant lie since that's literally never happened here before and I'm pretty sure it's not the first time Tel has made a completely out of left field implication like that.

Clearly his post was silly , probably like 20% serious and as such got a silly probably 20% serious gif. I like how your able to try and make a post that isn't addressed at you and barely even about you , be about you.

The shoutbox. There's no justification for it. I was being a dick but honestly given the post I made prior to calling you out on the shoutbox about how you like to set up things in a biased light it was only fitting that I saw you doing the same in the shoutbox.

People disagreeing with you is NOT negative. It's just people disagreeing with you.
Additionally I felt it was underhanded for you to seek black up there from people who hadn't read the thread yet and instantly paint with bias.

If you had any intention of getting worth while input there you would have just said "Hey guys there's an important thread *here* can you chime in".

@you calling out X.

Clearly I'm not him. I've known him for a long time though I think he's been an admin on a forum for more years then I've been an adult.

I know full well he would never reply like that if he wasn't the only person who felt that way. He's always been in tune with how this community feels on many levels. Additionally as you said people are frustrated, and it's clear this thread is not the result of a one off interaction between you and staff.

Simply put the man is clearly tired of repeating himself and is certainly tired of the way you keep ignoring multiple facts while in the same breath asking him to not get frustrated after you continually push all of the buttons ever.


And honestly his posts weren't that bad at all. He's just straight up disagreeing with you and you are taking it as being antagonistic. TLS was never designed to be an Echo Chamber just because you have an idea doesn't mean it's the right idea and nobody on this site is obliged to agree with you.
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
Dawn, I don't understand how you could have possibly thought Ghost's post referred to you. Quit jumping to conclusions. If you were unsure, send him a PM instead of ratcheting up the tension.

The rest of you, your ability to stir up drama out of nothing is nearly incomprehensible.

No one has any issues with any of the reasonable suggestions you have come up with regarding the FAQ and such things, Starling. Feel free to suggest some ways it can be improved. I personally like the idea of filling it with information about the way the codes for posting youtube videos and images work.

However, the absolute non-stop drum-beating about the stupid Thanks thread is ridiculous. It resulted in one sub-sub-forum that in no way needs to affect you. And we've said we'd review it in time anyway. So stop talking about it. Seriously. The matter is closed.

Telcontar, you had like three people disagree with what you thought about the site design and decided to decree that staff is uniting and coming down on you? That is pure trolling as I cannot believe someone would actually think that.

Quite simply, I refuse to allow these complete non-issues to continue to gnaw at the community for no other reason than boredom or perceived slights. Perfectly good staff members are considering leaving over this and I find that unacceptable for something so, so minor. We're here for Final Fantasy VII and the rest of the series, not to play Social Studies and mock government. People have been beyond patient but, clearly, everyone's patience has run out and this has to stop.

Talk about something productive, and the things beneficial to the community. You're simply going to have to make peace with yourself over whatever perceived issues happened in the Thanks thread. I won't hear any more of it. That goes for everyone.
 

Dawnbreaker

~The Other Side of Fear~
I have no interest (or time) to go any further in this thread, but I will say this: I didn't randomly decide to hate on Ghost, if people thought that. I actually had reasons for being irritated with his comments (which he has privately asked for me to explain and which I will privately do so), that turns out wasn't directed at me.

To Ghost (and only to Ghost), I do apologize for making the assumption.

As for why I didn't privately address this, two things on that -- first, I was (or so I thought) publicly addressed and I tend to like to respond in the manner I am addressed; and, second, Ghost's own post talked about he felt that talking behind the scenes was dishonest so I thought that's what he would have wanted.

Again, I'm sorry (to Ghost) for assuming incorrectly.

And now I bow out.
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
I'm saying this now because It obviously can't wait until I finish my proper response: Antagonism and general hostility towards people trying to give feedback isn't going to solve anything, no matter how much you disagree with what they said or personally dislike who you're responding to. Correcting Tel on having never been banned is fine. The hostility and antagonism with which it was done is not, nor was the disrespectful manner in which
Why hasn't Yop admin'd you yet? I'm not kidding. Just from that one post alone, in my eyes, you're way more qualified than some of the mods/admins here.

Whether or not you get banned for that post, I fuckin salute you.

Ummmmmm ...because that's not at all how we elect Admins on the site? Don't you know that there are user-polls and other things that we do when promoting Moderators and other members of the Staff? There's this cool thing we do called communicating with our user-base before making massive decisions - especially ones that ACTUALLY affect the entire site.

Also, why are you implying that she'd get banned for posting something like that?
That's a totally fucking absurd thing to even insinuate (which is why I didn't Thanks your post).
just because of the way she worded her gratitude for making this thread, is not. Gabe taking potshots at me and is not OK.
I absolutely cannot deal with being blunt any longer, so I'm moving on to use obvious, italicized, scathing sarcasm in hopes that it makes this so abundantly clear that you'll finally stop it with this tweaked little version of events you keep spouting.

I'm so glad that you're able to make definitive claims like this, without talking to literally anyone about it. So, since you're so well-informed – Please do inform us where it's stated that it's a permanent fixture and not a trial run. I'll be waiting...

After all, I mean, it's not as if there's some sort of current-event-driven-participation-in-a-hotly-divisive-thread that would serve to live out its lifecycle in a sub-forum that would allow us to speak definitively on the effectiveness of a Thanks-less Sub-Forum or anything.



Now it's time to address the next point:
The complex details of implementing a Thanks-less system on the forums.



To do this, you'll need...

1) A Sub-forum where Thanks is disabled.
- Oh my god, it's almost as if I made one very early on, because that's literally the sole necessary component to test that system. The mind absolutely boggles at why this was done so quickly without user input! There are literally zero other ways that this could have been tested, and I should have made a poll to determine what other things should have been painstakingly researched before such a drastic measure was taken!!

2) Threads to put in that forum.
a) Users communicating directly with staff requested that one thread be moved there immediately because it involves current events, and it stood to benefit greatly from immediate implementation, rather than lolly-gagging about to be voted upon by folks who possibly don't even participate, by using a user poll that doesn't adequately express the wants of the minority!
b) Some users chose to just make NEW threads in that section because they were excited about testing out an immediately available system. They should clearly have waited to see what everyone else thought before doing so.
c) The system was in place for two weeks awaiting this cool, hip, and radical process (that you seem to be incapable of seeing when it's actually done) called "USER FEEDBACK" where the people who actually participate in those thread get to say whether or not a small list of pre-prepared threads should be moved, or should remain where they are.
d) The Subforum is left in place to allow threads that need it to interact organically. Users can move threads to and from the section at their leisure. Being as it's something that impacts an exceptionally small userbase within the already small chunk of active forum users, it doesn't make sense to set a hard limit, but rather check threads for their natural activity and lifecycles to determine if the test of said system is helpful, harmful, or neutral for those involved.



The very last bit to hopefully condense all the tl;dr here is this:

Without talking about a single thing in the past, and focusing in only from this current day on the planet Earth, June the 18th, 2016: WHAT DO YOU ACTUALLY WANT NOW IN REGARDS TO THE THANKS SYSTEM, STARLING?
is not OK. The increasing hostility in this thread in general needs to stop.

I get that people are frustrated but please, take a deep breath and calm down before posting. I suggest we all relist the points we want addressed while cutting out the antagonism. Is anyone else up for that?

The staff have ALL been breathing deeply, calmly, and doing all manner of things to remain so for the last 2 months when discussing the Thanks thread with you in private, Starling – and our patience for that particular subject is completely and utterly exhausted – Especially when you insist on jumping back to square one and ignoring everything that we've said, and every point that we've raised, every time you re-start that conversation. (In case anyone else was wondering why this thread has the tone that it does).

I am MORE than happy to discuss what happened in a more calm manner IF:
1) You actually address the points that I brought up.
- (No, I won't re-list them again. I am infinitely tired of being a broken record about this).
2) You provide a solid, concrete, meaningful POINT to the discussion about what it is that you want NOW.
- (This has never once happened, and is why we're VERY tired of this conversation).

If you can't do that, I'm sorry, but my blunt sarcasm is the only way to even bring myself to keep talking about the same damn thing over, and over, and over, and over, and over again with no end in sight.





X :neo:
 

Cthulhu

Administrator
AKA
Yop
I for one still haven't figured out what the whole debate about the thanks section is about (it's TL;DR), so here's my summary:

* People voted in favor of trying to have a debate section without thanks
* A section was set up
* ?????
* profit

If it sucks we'll move threads back and close the section, simple as, no clue why there's still someone bothered by it.

So, one-sentence bulletpoint summaries pls. Give me some text to put in the FAQ and I'll get it up asap. Give me a text for a PM to automagically send to new members and I'll have that up in no-time too.

But please, no more tl;dr or meta discussions, they're unproductive and a waste of time and energy.
 

JechtShotMK9

The Sublimely Magnificent One
AKA
Kamiccolo9
Just saying, as someone who apparently doesn't have a clue as to what the fuck is going on.....

I like the forum colors, the staff have been super friendly and helpful (not to mention active; most forums I'm on just have the staff do a bunch of behind the scenes stuff, without actually being a part of the community), staff should have the authority to put their collective foot down if necessary, who dafuq cares about an arbitrary number at the bottom of post, and we should totally build a wall to make the forum great again, and make banned members pay for it.

Just my two cents.
 

SeraphSephiroth

Lv. 25 Adventurer
Enough is Enough

Yeesh this thread has devolved into a shit-flinging contest.

As things go and from having read the thread, I think that the rule changes suggested aren't that unreasonable. I's stuff that should really be in place anyway. This is going to be brutally honest and I'm not going to pull any punches.

1. Basic information like new members not being able to edit their posts and how long it takes before they gain full member status to do that, upload images and such should be easily accessible for the benefit of new members. Likewise, a readily accessible reference for the user titles would be useful as well, for those who haven't memorized it or which post in what thread brought it up how many years ago.

I think you and I have very definitions for the word "Constantly" 1 or 2 new people asking when they can edit their posts like every other 4 months isn't constantly. Honestly that's really the only thing new people ask about and tbh I think it's just easier to edit the new user usergroup to allow them to edit posts rather then have it arbitrarily set to change after they rank up. I mean unless I'm missing something I'm pretty sure the Bots aren't going to get much use out of editing posts.

Doesn't matter if it's constant or not. An FAQ is there to do a job so who
the hell care how often someone asks. It's irrelevant. New members should have this information on hand when they need it. If the FAQ is empty, populate it. It's not rocket science.

2. There should be a place where members can look up stuff like how the different methods of contacting staff are processed, particularly the differences in the different methods, which method of contact is preferred under what circumstances and so on. This would cover the difference between reports, PMing a specific staff member and using the private feedback forums.

2. All of those things fall under common sense though.
These things are not always clear to newbies, particularly those who do not speak english well. Staff might not mind, but that's still no reason to have people using the wrong methods constantly.

4. More detailed information about staff conduct (what staff can and can't do regarding their position and what it entails) so everyone has a common understanding of staff privileges and whether one has overstepped their bounds on something or acted in ways they shouldn't given their position.

This is a fairly important thing to set in place. Staff do have a tendency to elitism, so there does need to be a system in place whereby staff members are held accountable for their actions. As far as I can tell there's nobody to keep them in check even if they do get reported.

Please tell me specifically what questions are frequently asked enough to warrant us revamping or updating that section, because literally the only thing I can think of is BBCode and how to use it. We have posts/ a thread on both that and the "when can I post x" type-questions that are easily findable using the regular forum search function, as well as just asking somewhere in a thread like chit-chat.

Not the point really dude. Collate the information into one page. create a newb guide if you will. But if you can avoid wasting the time of users, why not?

Staff members are subject to the same rules as everyone else, if a staff member is seen misbehaving and/or breaking a rule anyone can report them. Starling you were here when we demoded Aaron and there was an announcement explaining he had been demoded for a long string of misconduct, that several members had reported his behavior and that staff had discussed it for a long time and came to an unanimous decision on the matter.

Your point has little meaning. Staff are obviously subject to the same rules as the rest of us. But reporting them to the staff may have little impact seeing as there will always be bias in the upper echelons of any hierarchy. There really is nobody to enforce any reports besides the higher ups (Who I don't know and claim nothing about them).

Like unless your full on trading your SSN or CC info with someone here why would you ever think up a scenario where you are curious about what can and can't be shared via pm?

Agreed. Send whatever the hell you want and deal with the fallout yourself. You made the choice now live with it. PMs are not subject to the general
forum rules as they are not public domain. The only exception to this would be harrassment. Obviously you should report that. Staff, however, should not have access to users Personal Messages. That is a gross invasion of privacy. That should be limited to the owners ONLY.

If you can't trust staff, argue it publicly. There's a lot of behind-the-scenes conspiring going on, and that is frankly dishonest and not productive at all. If you can't argue your case here, where all parties can defend themselves, don't argue it at all. If you want to remain anonymous, get a sympathising party to do it for you.

This thread is a prime example of why that is a terrible idea.

Now for my own personal thoughts overall.

First: Starling give up on the thanks thread. It's obviously wasted energy on your part. There's no point arguing this over and over when it's obvious that neither of you will concede defeat. Agree to disagree and move on. That's really all I can suggest.

Second: As staff on a few different communities, I can see a lot of issues in this community. My main observation is that the staff tend to act like passive agressive, condescending dickbags, and the community tends to join in and tear apart those who don't agree. As staff, you're expected to respect members and act in a polite manner, no matter how frustrated you are. If a user has an issue, rather than dismissing it out of hand, or giving snarky and condescending answers, do a full investigation and set aside all bias. PERSONAL GRUDGES ARE NOT A REASON TO IGNORE OR DISMISS COMPLAINTS. I should have to explain this to you! This is supposed to be a community for discussing Final Fantasy and to be honest threads like this disgust me. The amount of vitriol being spewed out here is astonishing, and the staff are part of that.

Third: Staff definitely should not have the ability to read PMs. From what I've seen in this thread alone, I wouldn't trust many staff with that power. Restrict it to the top levels and leave it at that.

Lastly:

Stop throwing shit at people and have a real discussion. This community is better than that. I've been a long time lurker and I want to see a good community that can grow and expand in harmony, not shit like this mess

Peace out
 

Geostigma

Pro Adventurer
AKA
gabe
Doesn't matter if it's constant or not. An FAQ is there to do a job so who
the hell care how often someone asks. It's irrelevant. New members should have this information on hand when they need it. If the FAQ is empty, populate it. It's not rocket science.

What I'm talking about is the usage and stats of a feature. You're right it has a job but if no one if "hiring" it to do that job then what's the point of keeping it around? Especially when it's purpose is easily substituted by other methods. It's not rocket science to make the correlation that if something is not used then it is inherently useless.

And it's besides the point talking about it anyway Yop already said he's down for taking a crack at it anyway so why continue to bring up a point thats settled lol.

These things are not always clear to newbies, particularly those who do not speak english well. Staff might not mind, but that's still no reason to have people using the wrong methods constantly.

I'm not sure what you mean regarding "wrong methods". If all methods are acceptable and fine then there is no wrong method. The point is that you voice your opinion not where you voice it.

This is a fairly important thing to set in place. Staff do have a tendency to elitism, so there does need to be a system in place whereby staff members are held accountable for their actions. As far as I can tell there's nobody to keep them in check even if they do get reported.

Elitism ehh? Gonna need a citation on that of Staff being elitist on TLS with in lets say the last 6 months to a year.

That's also kind of a silly point to make in regards to TLS considering several of our longest standing members since pre- TLS days are permabanned here. You'd think they could get away with murder :monster:


Your point has little meaning. Staff are obviously subject to the same rules as the rest of us. But reporting them to the staff may have little impact seeing as there will always be bias in the upper echelons of any hierarchy. There really is nobody to enforce any reports besides the higher ups (Who I don't know and claim nothing about them).


Sooooo you mean like... Mods who moderate Mods? Where have I heard that one before...

Me said:
But were old. We did that. We did that for over 10 years. There are pages on pages on ED dedicated to how fucking serious we took this community in the past. We took it to serious and a lot of stupid shit happened. For fucks sake we had Moderators who were in charge of moderating Moderators at one point.

Also your point literally doesn't hold water when almost a year ago Aaron had his admin privileges revoked. Where IIRC Ryu was demoted from S.Mod to Mod etc.

On TLS the mods are absolutely held accountable for their actions to the same degree members are. I understand you have that caveat of basically admitting you are winging it with that response but generic edgy statements about elitism in the ranks don't really apply very well here. TLS has a decent track record in this regard, mostly due to the things we learned from ACF.


Not the point really dude. Collate the information into one page. create a newb guide if you will. But if you can avoid wasting the time of users, why not?

Because you could potentially be wasting the time of users if you do it anyway? :reptar:

Over all my point for all of that was basically

Say if we put resources into revamping FAQ or what ever in its entirety instead of making another 500k+ view youtube video which one has better pay off?

Especially when the former might only be applicable to say 10 people a year who might not even use it? You have to consider Forums are niche as fuck these days. Most people when looking for communities don't think forum anymore. Not like the same way they did in 2006 (ACF was legit racking up 100 active users daily at peak). Lots of people using forums these days are core users who are comfortable with the set up due to nostalgia etc.

The new young forum user these days is actually a rarity. They are all being hip on that yikyak facespace whippersnapper stuff.
My point is that we get few new active users a year, and even less of them are actually true blue brand new to forum software.

My point was never let's not do this I'm lazy. It's what's the pay off? Sure it could take an hour or so including write up but if even 10 people use it in an entire year that's not worth while. Especially if other substitutes exist that foster more of a community feel.

But over it's pretty much a resolved point in any case.

Staff, however, should not have access to users Personal Messages. That is a gross invasion of privacy. That should be limited to the owners ONLY.

The last time I had access to admin control panel and the server etc. for a vB forum ( about 4 years ago). Accessing users PM's was not impossible but a major pain in the ass :monster:

It could be different now but your average mod through S.Mod most likely can't and I would argue that out of the Admins only Yopy has the know how to actually get into our pm's through the server. Or he could just get our log in info and log in, that would probably be way easier :monster:

My point is most likely that's not going to happen though.

And beyond that I actually think you took that information in the OP the wrong way. I read it as there being concern in regards to what a Mod can share in staff section that was in a private conversation. NOT whether or not they are willing or capable of invading your privacy via snooping.

This thread is a prime example of why that is a terrible idea.

Now for my own personal thoughts overall.

Your missing the context that for some of the parties involved here this isn't the first time this conversation was had. Some of these points have been debated ad nauseam for months according to some posts here.

@Second point : You are honestly missing a looot of context. And while you have a point regarding conduct you also have to understand that it's very stressful for some people to be forced into talking points that get ignored and framed in poor light for months on end where unfortunately you are denied the solution to "agree to disagree" by one of the parties.

Simply put one of the parties involved here is straight up Sisyphus.

@Third. Again I think you read that portion 100% the wrong way.
 
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Lex

Administrator
Just gonna nip this in the bud real quick:

Staff, however, should not have access to users Personal Messages. That is a gross invasion of privacy. That should be limited to the owners ONLY.

Staff don't have access to PM's. If a situation warrants investigation, only Yop has the power to do so. There's a specific backend system for doing so, and we tested the permissions about 6 months ago to see who could and couldn't. Even Tres and X (the other admins) can't access it, to my knowledge.
 

Joe

I KEEP MY IDEALS
AKA
Joe, Arcana
This post is in response to Seraph. I see I've been Ninja'd in the meantime.

Seraph said:
Doesn't matter if it's constant or not. An FAQ is there to do a job so who
the hell care how often someone asks. It's irrelevant. New members should have this information on hand when they need it. If the FAQ is empty, populate it. It's not rocket science.
This has been gone over in this post. The consensus in this thread is that an up to date FAQ would be good. As of yet nobody has come forth to offer to compile the information but such a change has already been decided on.
By focusing on a single disagreeing post when the consensus is that this is good change is an example of 'shit-flinging' on your part.

These things are not always clear to newbies, particularly those who do not speak english well. Staff might not mind, but that's still no reason to have people using the wrong methods constantly
As above, see Yop's post two up from yours.

This is a fairly important thing to set in place. Staff do have a tendency to elitism, so there does need to be a system in place whereby staff members are held accountable for their actions. As far as I can tell there's nobody to keep them in check even if they do get reported
I can tell you now that staff here do not have a tendency towards elitism. If you think so then that's your opinion, but I'd like some kind of evidence to back up your argument since you presented like a fact.
Additionally, staff are not a hivemind and have no desire to be. We all have our own opinions on things and disagreements come up all of the time. The reason we have multiple moderators is so that one person's perspective is not the basis of forum change or any change to members themselves.
If a staff member is acting out of line then other staff members are in a good position to do something about it. Just last year a member of staff was removed by the rest of staff due to power abuse and user complaints. Were staff to receive complaints on another member, you can be sure that it will be dealt with.

Not the point really dude. Collate the information into one page. create a newb guide if you will. But if you can avoid wasting the time of users, why not?
'Shit-flinging'. Please read Yop's post as this matter already has a solution you are ignoring. I happen to agree that helpful information for new members is a good idea. So do many in this thread.

Your point has little meaning. Staff are obviously subject to the same rules as the rest of us. But reporting them to the staff may have little impact seeing as there will always be bias in the upper echelons of any hierarchy. There really is nobody to enforce any reports besides the higher ups (Who I don't know and claim nothing about them)
I feel I've already addressed this but let me assure you there is no 'bias in the upper echelons'. Staff are literally members here with a few extra permissions. They spend 95% of their time banning spam bots and deleting junk threads. There is no time for round table meetings whereupon they conspire against the forum or declare themselves higher up.
As an aside I am relatively new to staff and was voted here by members of the forum, the majority of which aren't staff. If staff are colluding on anything then I assure you I've yet to be invited to any of their meetings.

Agreed. Send whatever the hell you want and deal with the fallout yourself. You made the choice now live with it. PMs are not subject to the general
forum rules as they are not public domain. The only exception to this would be harrassment. Obviously you should report that. Staff, however, should not have access to users Personal Messages. That is a gross invasion of privacy. That should be limited to the owners ONLY.
What a member decides to do with their private messages, sent or received, is 100% their decision. If I send you a private message now telling you I'm secretly Batman, you are free to share that with whomever you please. The same applies to any message staff receive. If they receive a message asking for action to be taken against another member or expressing their frustration at forum elements, there's a good chance they may share that with the rest of staff so it can be looked into. No single member of staff is going to ban a member or change a thread without consulting other members of staff first, so as to ascertain some kind of consensus and allow for an investigation of what's going on.

I don't know where the idea of staff being able to read member pms came from. None of the mods here have the permission to do that. It is restricted entirely to the administrators, as it should be.

This thread is a prime example of why that is a terrible idea
Why? For what reason is that a bad idea?
If you feel like you have a problem with staff and you don't trust them to handle it themselves, arguing it publicly is the next option available to you. The entire community can weigh in on the decision then. If there is a consensus on the issue then the matter will be dealt with. Were the staff corrupt (spoiler: they aren't) then this would be brought to the attention of the community at large.

To respond to your closing points:

1 - The Thanks 'argument' is a dead horse. The community has no large issue with it. Starling is free to believe there's more to it but the fact of the matter is the large majority of users here are happy with Thanks as they stand. We'd have already been reviewing the new sub-forum's trial run as a community if we didn't already have our hands full right now.

2 - Staff DO conduct full investigations of member issues. This is not an exception. What you're seeing is the result of months of communication on a number of issues, whereby the suggestions, advice and criticisms have been largely ignored. Now it's in a public setting.
Personal grudges aren't a reason to ignore anything, correct. Every member here agrees with that sentiment I assure you. What's your point? If you're inferring that's been the case then please give examples. If you're not then you're just shit-stirring.

3 - Only the highest level (Administrator) has the ability to read member pms. You've incorrectly assumed that staff can do this, when they cannot.
 
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SeraphSephiroth

Lv. 25 Adventurer
This has been gone over in this post. The consensus in this thread is that an up to date FAQ would be good. As of yet nobody has come forth to offer to compile the information but such a change has already been decided on.
By focusing on a single disagreeing post when the consensus is that this is good change is an example of 'shit-flinging' on your part.

I started this a couple days ago. I was simply making the point that regardless of whether or not it's used it's still a good idea. We might need it one day. Sorta like when you hoard healing items.

Just gonna nip this in the bud real quick:

Staff don't have access to PM's. If a situation warrants investigation, only Yop has the power to do so. There's a specific backend system for doing so, and we tested the permissions about 6 months ago to see who could and couldn't. Even Tres and X (the other admins) can't access it, to my knowledge.

Seems I may have misunderstood an earlier post. My bad.

1 - The Thanks 'argument' is a dead horse. The community has no large issue with it. Starling is free to believe there's more to it but the fact of the matter is the large majority of users here are happy with Thanks as they stand. We'd have already been reviewing the new sub-forum's trial run as a community if we didn't already have our hands full right now.

That's pretty much what I said. There is no reason for either party to continue this discussion as it will just result in more arguments.

I can tell you now that staff here do not have a tendency towards elitism. If you think so then that's your opinion, but I'd like some kind of evidence to back up your argument since you presented like a fact.
Additionally, staff are not a hivemind and have no desire to be. We all have our own opinions on things and disagreements come up all of the time. The reason we have multiple moderators is so that one person's perspective is not the basis of forum change or any change to members themselves.
If a staff member us acting out of line then other staff members are in a good permission to do something about it. Just last year a member of staff was removed by the rest of staff due to power abuse and user complaints. Were staff to receive complaints on another member, you can be sure that it will be dealt with.

You have misunderstood me. When I say "Staff" I don't mean only staff here. Perhaps I should have made my meaning clearer. I meant staff in general across all communities. Only the last part of my statement was specific to here.

As for dealing with user complaints I'm dearly hoping that is the case. I'm a really laid back fellow, but it really pips me off when I see personal grudges get in the way of proper investigations (again, not saying it's happening here)


I feel I've already addressed this but let me assure you there is no 'bias in the upper echelons'. Staff are literally members here with a few extra permissions. They spend 95% of their time banning spam bots and deleting junk threads. There is no time for round table meetings whereupon they conspire against the forum or declare themselves higher up.
As an aside I am relatively new to staff and was voted here by members of the forum, the majority of which aren't staff. If staff are colluding on anything then I assure you I've yet to be invited to any of their meetings.

See above.


What a member decides to do with their private messages, sent or received, is 100% their decision. If I send you a private message now telling you I'm secretly Batman, you are free to share that with whomever you please. The same applies to any message staff receive. If they receive a message asking for action to be taken against another member or expressing their frustration at forum elements, there's a good chance they may share that with the rest of staff so it can be looked into. No single member of staff is going to ban a member or change a thread without consulting other members of staff first, so as to ascertain some kind of consensus and allow for an investigation of what's going on.

Pretty much what I said.

Why? For what reason is that a bad idea?
If you feel like you have a problem with staff and you don't trust them to handle it themselves, arguing it publicly is the next option available to you. The entire community can weigh in on the decision then. If there is a consensus on the issue then the matter will be dealt with. Were the staff corrupt (spoiler: they aren't) then this would be brought to the attention of the community at large.

Because it seems like anyone looking to take things public seems to get a bad rap. Maybe I'm just looking at things the wrong way, but the staff society here seems much different than what I'm used to.

Staff DO conduct full investigations of member issues. This is not an exception. What you're seeing is the result of months of communication on a number of issues, whereby the suggestions, advice and criticisms have been largely ignored. Now it's in a public setting.
Personal grudges aren't a reason to ignore anything, correct. Every member here agrees with that sentiment I assure you. What's your point? If you're inferring that's been the case then please give examples. If you're not then you're just shit-stirring.

It's in a public setting and breeding discord. There should be a way to do this politely, really.
I wasn't inferring anything at all. I was just pointing out my opinion on the matter and I felt I should make it clear as I think t's the most important point.

And it's besides the point talking about it anyway Yop already said he's down for taking a crack at it anyway so why continue to bring up a point thats settled lol.

I got ninja'd bruh. Real life got in the way so some stuff wasn't relevant anymore. I was too lazy to take it out.

I'm not sure what you mean regarding "wrong methods". If all methods are acceptable and fine then there is no wrong method. The point is that you voice your opinion not where you voice it.

By "Wrong Methods" I mean that each way to contact staff is theoretically used for different situations. I agree that staff should respond to any method of communication but why have different ways of contacting you if one way is fine?

Elitism ehh? Gonna need a citation on that of Staff being elitist on TLS with in lets say the last 6 months to a year.

That's also kind of a silly point to make in regards to TLS considering several of our longest standing members since pre- TLS days are permabanned here. You'd think they could get away with murder

Y'all misunderstood too. Seems to be my mistake for not explaining better. Only the last part of my statement was specific to here.

Sooooo you mean like... Mods who moderate Mods? Where have I heard that one before...

You have more staff ranks than necessary imho. I'm not saying that my way is better but it seems to me that really you can drop super mods and still function well. We, for example, use: Editor>Staff>Mod>Admin>Big Cheese
Each rank serves to moderate the one below it and there are methods of contacting higher level staff if the ones below are misbehaving.

Also your point literally doesn't hold water when almost a year ago Aaron had his admin privileges revoked. Where IIRC Ryu was demoted from S.Mod to Mod etc.

On TLS the mods are absolutely held accountable for their actions to the same degree members are. I understand you have that caveat of basically admitting you are winging it with that response but generic edgy statements about elitism in the ranks don't really apply very well here. TLS has a decent track record in this regard, mostly due to the things we learned from ACF

Perhaps I was overhasty in making that post. I just don't like to see condescension towards other members. I get you're frustrated but handle it in a dignified manner. :smashedmonster:

And beyond that I actually think you took that information in the OP the wrong way. I read it as there being concern in regards to what a Mod can share in staff section that was in a private conversation. NOT whether or not they are willing or capable of invading your privacy via snooping.

Yes I realise it was my misunderstanding.

You are honestly missing a looot of context. And while you have a point regarding conduct you also have to understand that it's very stressful for some people to be forced into talking points that get ignored and framed in poor light for months on end where unfortunately you are denied the solution to "agree to disagree" by one of the parties.

Simply put one of the parties involved here is straight up Sisyphus.

I get that it's stressful. Trust me I completely understand. I've said that this whole discussion is a waste of time on the part of both sides. But calling people names because you're frustrated, or acting condescending toward them, is more likely to make them more pissed off and come at you even harder.
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
We only really have two forum staff ranks that actually get used. Super Mod and Admin.

Also, damn, I lost my black cowl for the next staff conspiracy meeting.
 

Carlie

CltrAltDelicious
AKA
Chloe Frazer
You have misunderstood me. When I say "Staff" I don't mean only staff here. Perhaps I should have made my meaning clearer. I meant staff in general across all communities. Only the last part of my statement was specific to here.

If most of your point was about staff of other communities why are you bringing it up here? How is it relevant to this thread or this forum for that matter?


You have more staff ranks than necessary imho. I'm not saying that my way is better but it seems to me that really you can drop super mods and still function well. We, for example, use: Editor>Staff>Mod>Admin>Big Cheese
Each rank serves to moderate the one below it and there are methods of contacting higher level staff if the ones below are misbehaving.

You seem to be misunderstanding some of the staff ranks, editors are a site staff position not a forum position. Only SuperMods and Admins are forum staff positions.
 

SeraphSephiroth

Lv. 25 Adventurer
You have misunderstood me. When I say "Staff" I don't mean only staff here. Perhaps I should have made my meaning clearer. I meant staff in general across all communities. Only the last part of my statement was specific to here.

If most of your point was about staff of other communities why are you bringing it up here? How is it relevant to this thread or this forum for that matter?


You have more staff ranks than necessary imho. I'm not saying that my way is better but it seems to me that really you can drop super mods and still function well. We, for example, use: Editor>Staff>Mod>Admin>Big Cheese
Each rank serves to moderate the one below it and there are methods of contacting higher level staff if the ones below are misbehaving.

You seem to be misunderstanding some of the staff ranks, editors are a site staff position not a forum position. Only SuperMods and Admins are forum staff positions.

1: It was a general point abouut staff on communities and I'm certain there are some here who are like that. Whether they display that publicly or not is irrelevant.

2: Sorry I have different experience with forums and as I said I'm a lurker here.
 
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