Summons in the Compilation

Skan

Pro Adventurer
AKA
dief
Just wanted to see what everyone else thinks about the nature of summons and/or if anyone's come up with a comprehensive explanation for how they work.

Summons have been one of the coolest parts of the Final Fantasy series for me, and I was severely disappointed where there was little to no background given on them in the Compilation. Additionally, the summons are often -- well, they're basically just battle tools. They seem to have no personality or individual will, as opposed to what you see in some of the other games in the series.

Meanwhile, what little we can learn about the summons needs to be gleaned from a dummied line in the Japanese version of the game (which you can find on this page if you do a search for "summon": http://thelifestream.net/ffvii-the-original/final-fantasy-vii-the-unused-text-series/part-8/). In short, summons seem to be ancient creatures who were exposed to mako for a long time (does this make them "monsters," then?) and then, for whatever reason, sealed their "life force" in materia.

What is this "life force" exactly? Did they choose to have themselves sealed, did someone seal them into materia, or did this sealing simply occur naturally? Nowhere else is materia used to harbor any sort of "life"; other, more ordinary materia are used to tap into the Lifestream's wisdom to manipulate the natural forces. In this case, are summons just natural forces made physical? Are they monsters that have just grown so powerful that they are likened to natural forces? What is their connection to the Planet? Do they have much intelligence in them or are they simple monsters? Do they lead an independent existence in some other dimension, or do they exist only to be summoned? Can they die in the true sense of the word?

I am also at a loss to try to explain the "summon field" that appears around the summons. One of the guides or vocab lists for the game/Crisis Core (I forget which) says that Bahamut Sin in AC is the only one that manifests without a summon field. The easy explanation is to just pass off this summon field as a game mechanic, but if someone has come up with a plausible explanation for this, I'd love to hear it.

I realize a lot of this will be theorycrafting and headcanon, but that's part of the fun.

My tiny bit of theorycrafting comes almost exclusively from what we know about Leviathan: Apparently the summon was powerful enough to have gained the status of guardian god in Wutai. My imagination leads me to think that at some distant point in the past, Leviathan was a great, big, destructive monster that lived in the waters around Wutai that would eat any ships it encountered. At some point it was sealed into materia (by the Cetra, perhaps?) and became a defensive tool instead. Perhaps this is also true for the other summons (e.g. Zirconiade comes to mind...).
 

Lex

Administrator
So I guess the way I always thought about it was that all materia utilises the Lifestream - spirit energy - to conjure or manipulate natural forces. So I guess my headcanon for the summons is that they're conjured spirits of creatures whose essence is sealed inside the materia much the same way the "spirit essence" to conjure lightning is stored in the bolt/thunder materia.

So you might say the bolt materia contains "essence of storm" and the Ice materia contains "essence of winter" and the bahamut materia contains "essence of big fucking dragon". There must be something that makes the materia unique. A bolt materia and an ice materia are identical looking and have the same growth conditions (as do other materia) so there must be something inherently unique and individual about those materia.
 
Well... I always rationalised it to myself like this: materia is crystallised mako, and mako is spirit energy, containing the dissolved memories of everything that has ever lived. So let's suppose a molecule or atom of the memory of fire felt an attraction to other molecules of memories of fire (and lighting to lightning, etc...), they would naturally tend to aggregate and thus solid crystals of discrete memories would form. Naturally occurring materia is quite rare, so this process by which they are formed must be something that requires an unusual concatenation of events in order to occur.

I like this explanation because it ties in with the theme of memory which is so prominent in FFVII. But it doesn't account for some materia, like Enemy Skill... unless Enemy Skill is the aggregate crystallised spirit energy of babies who die at or around birth, with all their vast potential for learning still untapped. Sorry, bit morbid.

I haven't really though how the summons would fit into my system. Maybe they're the memory of dreams? Or the memory of legendary tales handed down from mother to child? Like, in our world maybe summons would be things like unicorns, dragons, Robin Hood, the Medusa, George Washington with his little axe, the Big Bad Wolf, and Biff Chip and Kipper from the Oxford Reading Tree.... Mythological creatures from the collective consciousness. That would help explain the non-elemental ones, anyway.
 

Starling

Pro Adventurer
That sounds like an overly scientific version of what I think. For example, the black materia could be the collective memories of the meteor impact that brought Jenova. The white materia would've been created as a counterbalance out of more benevolent memories.

Enemy skill could be the memory of learning, be it from an infant or adult. After all, you're never too old to learn something new.

I figure summons would be the memory of a creature that either existed or was part of a legend. After all, most summons are based on deities or creatures of various mythologies and like certain myths, there can be different versions of them. This fits with the existence of multiple versions of Bahamut and Leviathan being revered as a god in Wutai.

To explain the differences in the portrayal of summoning throughout the compilation, I figured there could be multiple methods of summoning.
 
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Gym Leader Devil

True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
AKA
So many names
I've long been of the opinion that the summons are/were real creatures that used to live on the planet, but aren't available anymore. Was my headcannon that a number of them (if not the whole bunch) perished during the arrival of Jenova or the fight to seal her up that followed and like all living things returned to the planet. After, either the planet assisted them in maintaining/returning to cohesion within the Lifestream, or they did it themselves by force of will out of a desire to keep fighting when summoned.

Of course, I like to see it that way cause it gives the possibility for them to have personality and substance, even when not summoned to the battlefield. Its totally possible that the summons are just mako-based constructs fueled by memories in the Lifestream, with no sense of self and such. This thread reminds me of a fanfic-ish idea I had once for a rival company to the Shinra getting their hands on the technical specs for the mako-infusion process and Jenova cell injections used to make SOLDIERs and substituting DNA from fossilized summon monsters like Leviathan (excavated in Wutai of course) in place of Jenova's. /only tangenitally related ramble
 

Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
I had kinda assumed that they were monsters bound to the will of the Cetra somehow. Like the Demon Wall, only crystallised.

I pretty much assumed the 'summon field' thing was dramatic effect. Otherwise, how could Sephiroth break in to kill Ifrit?
 

Skan

Pro Adventurer
AKA
dief
That sounds like an overly scientific version of what I think. For example, the black materia could be the collective memories of the meteor impact that brought Jenova. The white materia would've been created as a counterbalance out of more benevolent memories.

Enemy skill could be the memory of learning, be it from an infant or adult. After all, you're never too old to learn something new.

I figure summons would be the memory of a creature that either existed or was part of a legen. After all, most summons are based on deities or creatures of various mythologies and like certain myths, there can be different versions of them. This fits with the existence of multiple versions of Bahamut and Leviathan being revered as a god in Wutai.

To explain the differences in the portrayal of summoning throughout the compilation, I figured there could be multiple methods of summoning.
This idea of them being "memories" or "myths" is interesting and something I will have to consider more. Kind of brings back the idea of the "dreaming" that forms the Aeons in FFX.

I've long been of the opinion that the summons are/were real creatures that used to live on the planet, but aren't available anymore. Was my headcannon that a number of them (if not the whole bunch) perished during the arrival of Jenova or the fight to seal her up that followed and like all living things returned to the planet. After, either the planet assisted them in maintaining/returning to cohesion within the Lifestream, or they did it themselves by force of will out of a desire to keep fighting when summoned.

Of course, I like to see it that way cause it gives the possibility for them to have personality and substance, even when not summoned to the battlefield. Its totally possible that the summons are just mako-based constructs fueled by memories in the Lifestream, with no sense of self and such. This thread reminds me of a fanfic-ish idea I had once for a rival company to the Shinra getting their hands on the technical specs for the mako-infusion process and Jenova cell injections used to make SOLDIERs and substituting DNA from fossilized summon monsters like Leviathan (excavated in Wutai of course) in place of Jenova's. /only tangenitally related ramble
Heh. I like your idea for the same reason (personality, woo!), but then it doesn't really make sense that they would serve someone like Genesis or Kadaj. They seem too indiscriminate to have all that much intelligence, which is why I tend to lean on the idea that they're kind of just mindless monsters as much as I'd like to find evidence to the contrary. But perhaps they're just bound by the materia to serve whoever wields it.

Sudden thought I have is maybe that they were intelligent creatures fighting against Jenova, but that perhaps they realized they would be more powerful/potent as summons and sacrificed their free will for that kind of power/longevity/etc. for the "war effort."

God, I'd love some crazy FFX idea like "They're actually Cetra who bound themselves into the forms of monsters by blahblahblah to fight against Jenova blahblahblah." I kind of really like the idea of being able to push one's life force into a piece of materia. Opens up all sorts of avenues for interesting fic.

I also wonder if they're related to Weapons, but I've so far hit a dead end with that kind of theorycrafting.

I had kinda assumed that they were monsters bound to the will of the Cetra somehow. Like the Demon Wall, only crystallised.

I pretty much assumed the 'summon field' thing was dramatic effect. Otherwise, how could Sephiroth break in to kill Ifrit?
'cause it's Sephiroth! What more answer do you need? :P (As much of a cop-out that is ... it may actually be true.)
 

Skan

Pro Adventurer
AKA
dief
My headcannon for the summons comes from unused text in the game...

http://thelifestream.net/forums/showthread.php?p=293863
Yup, I'd linked the unused text in the OP, but tbh I found it rather vague. What were the nature of these mako-bathed creatures? Why were they specifically turned into summons? Who turned them into summons? So on and so forth.

If Chaos is a summon, that also raises the question of how summons are related to Weapons. As I'd mentioned before, it was a thought that occurred to me, but I haven't pondered on it enough to make it fit.
 

Ite

Save your valediction (she/her)
AKA
Ite
I'm also in the "they are the crystallized memories of mythology" camp.
 

Starling

Pro Adventurer
Maybe the planet creates summon materia with a particular purpose like it seems to with unique materia. I'm pretty sure at least Zirconiade can be in some way linked to the Weapons
 

Skan

Pro Adventurer
AKA
dief
Maybe the planet creates summon materia with a particular purpose like it seems to with unique materia. I'm pretty sure at least Zirconiade can be in some way linked to the Weapons
Thinking on it, it's possible, but it'd be a little bit weird. When Zirconiade was summoned, Jade Weapon woke up, sensing a threat to the Planet, suggesting that Zirconiade was more an enemy of the Planet than any sort of ally.
 

Novus

Pro Adventurer
Quick question, what were those ‘gods’ in Wutai’s pagoda? Were they just tough fighters or had they become divine creatures somehow?
 
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The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Thinking on it, it's possible, but it'd be a little bit weird. When Zirconiade was summoned, Jade Weapon woke up, sensing a threat to the Planet, suggesting that Zirconiade was more an enemy of the Planet than any sort of ally.

It was actually Zirconiade's destruction that awakened Jade. The actual summon materia was destroyed. The planet deemed the Turks a threat because that summon was a valued part of its ecosystem.
 

Starling

Pro Adventurer
I also want to add that theorizing that they're made of memories doesn't eliminate the possibility for distinct personalities. After all, Tidus and Jecht are from dream Zanarkan, which basically makes them living dreams/memories. That doesn't make them any less real than anyone else in FFX so why wouldn't it be possible for summons to be essentially made of memories while being more than just mindless creatures that do whatever's asked of them?
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
I'm okay that the Summons aren't always crucial to the plot in FF games. I don't mean to dismiss the discussion, it's fun to think about. I just mean that it doesn't disappoint me that VII didn't develop the Summons. As others have said, judging by the way materia is explained they could be anything from a powerful knowledge of fire, memories of mythology, or servants/companions of the Cetra.

Quick question, what were those ‘gods’ in Wutai’s pagoda? Were they just tough fighters or had they become divine creatures somehow?

I don't have a source for this, but I think they were simply strong martial artists that served as priests/guardians of Leviathan.
...why they morphed into monsters I don't know.
 

Skan

Pro Adventurer
AKA
dief
@ Martha: Thanks for that note on Zirconiade. That actually fills me with hope that I can theorycraft something good for some odd plot. :P

@ Forcestealer: I don't necessarily think they have to be crucial to the plot, per se, but crucial enough to the world that if you remove them, there'd be something missing in the game. That's what disappoints me. As they're conceived in the OG, they're pretty much just optional accessories that aren't really woven into the setting that well, much less the plot ...

You know, I'd really like to somehow combine the whole "they're actual mako-bathed monsters" (which seems to have been the original idea) and the "memories" theme.

Btw, has anyone read Robin Hobb's Farseer trilogy before? It's yet another story that comes to mind when people talk about this theme of "memory" and self and monsters ... I'd always thought her concept of the memory stone and stone dragons was really cool.
 

Gym Leader Devil

True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
AKA
So many names
You know, I'd really like to somehow combine the whole "they're actual mako-bathed monsters" (which seems to have been the original idea) and the "memories" theme.

Simple enough to do. Random monster species (let's say a Nibel Dragon for the hell of it) is exposed to a natural source of mako for generations. Mutations occur, granting the thing freaky non-elemental blast powers and more streamlined, majestic looks. Humans see mako-evolved Dragon, believe it is even more special and powerful than it really is, decide to call it Bahamut. Humans die. The memories of their beliefs about the mutated Dragon flow around the planet with the Lifestream. Materia forms. Cloud summons Bahamut. Shit gets wrecked :reapermon:
 

Starling

Pro Adventurer
If summons were creatures exposed to lots of mako and then put into materia, wouldn't it be possible for some horribly unethical scientist who knew that to see if the same could be done to SOLDIERs?

I once read a fic where summons were mentioned as essentially being strong souls that were given some semblance of another life instead of fading away, though didn't elaborate any further.
 
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ForceStealer

Double Growth
Simple enough to do. Random monster species (let's say a Nibel Dragon for the hell of it) is exposed to a natural source of mako for generations. Mutations occur, granting the thing freaky non-elemental blast powers and more streamlined, majestic looks. Humans see mako-evolved Dragon, believe it is even more special and powerful than it really is, decide to call it Bahamut.

Myths arise about other Bahamuts regarding geological events or remnants thereof. Such as Bahamut Zero causing [the] crater(s).

Humans die. The memories of their beliefs about the mutated Dragon flow around the planet with the Lifestream. Materia forms. Cloud summons Bahamut. Shit gets wrecked :reapermon:

:monster:
 

Novus

Pro Adventurer
I don't have a source for this, but I think they were simply strong martial artists that served as priests/guardians of Leviathan.
...why they morphed into monsters I don't know.

I would say something similar, only that when they're explicitly referred to as Gods multiple times, and it is a fantasy game that has an icewitch living in a cave in a glacier I'm not sure how broad and removed from its science fiction foundations the game can get.
 
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