Thanks System Referendum.

[X-SOLDIER]

@Dawn: I'm curious what it is that you don't like about it specifically, and why you see it as an extreme solution to a bigger issue.

The implementation of that sub-forum allows you to debate things without feeling like each "majority Thanked" post is like you're standing up against a wall of dissenting opinions. The threads within that sub-forum can be moved in and out of the section based on the decision of the participants. It basically gives a capability for certain topics to be discussed in a way that makes them feel like they're on a bit more of a level playing field decided by the people discussing it.

Again, I don't see anything extreme about it as a solution, and want to know why you think it is.


Additionally, IF there's, "more to it than a simple few folks upset with not getting Thanked" then we're still waiting on hearing those specifics and if the individual ability to block the Thanks system will correct that, or if it's indicative of a behaviour that we need to address as a Community/Staff – at which point, once we have that information, we will. This isn't a band-aid to that issue, since as I said before – those things need to be taken care of by the Community/Staff because they'll occur regardless of the presence or lack of the Forum's Thanks system.





X

 

[Dawnbreaker]

@Ghost: I'm beginning to think either you and I have to decide to stop communicating, since we apparently both think the other person is behaving badly, or we should take it offline, or something.

FYI -- there's a big difference between not Thanking someone's post and calling someone a dick.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

About the subforum: it's probably too late to weigh in but maybe rather than moving the threads you should close them and start fresh with a new one.

With most all of the debates, there's a TON of historical information in the posts that would be useful to not have to cross-reference. Additionally, because the subforum contains living posts, and the ability to add or remove threads, this doesn't make sense.

I am interested in what you feel the merit of creating all new threads would be, since none of the Thanks will be visible in the threads, and that's the ONLY change that will be happening.




X

 

[X-SOLDIER]

I think the majority of the votes made it clear that almost everyone does enjoy the Thanks system at least for the most part, so keeping it around the forum as a whole is nice. Even most of those who don't care for it in heavy debates like it elsewhere.
As far as my thoughts, the only section I've had issue with the Thanks system, as I said in my first post, is in the debate section. Everywhere else, for various reasons, I enjoy it or have no problem with it. I guess reason for that is generally politics, religion and 'social differences' are fairly big issues that can be debated quite ferociously everywhere in life. I mean damn, I know many people who have ruined friendships based on these three things if they let it, so it's no surprise that on TLS these kinds of topics are the ones in question when it comes to having issues with the Thanks system.

As for my personal thoughts about how I'd feel disabling the Thanks system altogether just for myself, well I'd honestly prefer (and am really grateful you set that thread up X ) to just have a sub-forum where topics can go in and out of that automatically has the Thanks system removed.
This is in part because, as I've stated, I enjoy the Thanks system most other places and thus don't want it disabled everywhere (and it'd be a bit of a pain since I'm not tech-savvy right now to disable it every time I want to look in a heavy debate thread). Another reason, and the biggest, is again as I stated in my first post (and Joe has said numerous times,) that a removal of Thanks in big discussion topics is more likely to encourage actual discussion. Hopefully some others who don't want to post because of Thanks will participate in more debate discussions if they really want to, and hopefully some that just usually lurk and Thank would be more willing to share a post as to why they feel the way they do, ect. Or something Point is I think it'll encourage more discussion, at least I genuinely hope so.

I mentioned it in my first post, but I personally feel better actually talking with more members in debates instead of just seeing them thank posts. Because as I've experienced, you get to know some people much better that way and realize you might actually have things in common instead of being completely separated by "I'm a liberal and you're a libertarian" or something. (As a side-note, this of course really only works if each individual is willing to debate things in a good manner and genuinely not be a dick about it, being respectful of a different opinion, actually adding something of themselves or in general to the debate, ect)
I can actually name some people I got to know better, such as Tres, Ghost, and Lex, by actually talking to them in some debates and finding out that we do have some similar viewpoints that we share. If they just thanked stuff and never talked, I'd never have gotten that opinion and respect for them.

Edit: In the time it took me to write this post, another page has been added to this thread. Holy smokes.

For what it's worth, Flare – your continued badassery in the Presidential debate thread was one of my primary motivations for implementing things the way that I did with that subforum, so I'm glad that you seem to really like how it's set to be done.




X

 

[Dawnbreaker]

@X: Fair enough. I can't say I care enough to really argue it, since I hardly ever use the debate section. Considering that, do you really want to know? My opinion holds less weight in that case, imo. People should vote and discuss on what affects them, and since the Thanks system isn't being taken from elsewhere (or rather, it's only part of the debate section it's being eliminated from), I care a lot less.

That said, since you asked, the point I'm making is that when you start censoring people, it leads you down a slippery slope. How far do we go? Will we one day decide other places need to be censored as such? And in what other ways? Will we decide to abolish the VMs? Or PMs or what? Again, I might worrying too much, which is part of the reason why I'm not really objecting to this.

As for the "other issue", well, I can't speak to that really. Again, I've only been told that "people are being ganged up on", etc.. If you want to know if there's a bigger you have to ask elsewhere. I just keep hearing that there's these bad feelings or whatever and I always think that issues should be addressed as is, rather than patched up and ignored. Since I really know so little about this (not for lack of trying, I assure you) I can only tell you that and otherwise encourage you to go ahead.

 

[Jason Tandro]

JT and Dawn: That I'm being made out as the bad guy by you two is absurd.

There are no bad guys here man, I have precious little time to waste making enemies and I consider nobody here, even those I've had notorious arguments with (not to name names but you all know) an enemy or a bad guy.

I am not the one making this a big deal, nor am I the bad guy. Anonymous participation should be welcome. Intolerance of it shouldn't be. I am the one holding the position of tolerance.

Ah the old "intolerance of intolerance is tolerance" argument. Sorry to say opinions are allowed to vary on this one. Dawn isn't saying "NOBODY CAN BE ANONYMOUS". FFS, everybody here is functionally anonymous unless your real name is actually Ghost (in which case that's awesome, can we trade names?)

And again, if it wasn't clear the first time, I see a whole lot of irony those claiming to be in the thick-skinned crowd (implying others are thin-skinned), while having issue with what I said and saying I'm discouraging discussion (discussion of intolerant positions) by describing actions as dickish, which up til now, in this forum, was perfectly acceptable language.

I caught the snarkiness and chose to ignore it then, but since you feel like pressing the point, I could give a fuck less how you choose to treat your friends. I was offering a bit of advice to somebody who generally is a hell of a lot more composed. I was just pointing out the hypocrisy which still stands: I will protect the minority. I will champion tolerance. I will respect everybody's opinion. You think different from me? You're a dick.

As for me, you can insult me all day long if you so wish (not that you have up to this point) and I'll deal. But honestly dude from somebody who knows too well how damaging pride can be (see how the fuck my dumb ass started on these forums) I think it's a shame that you can't move on from this. A simple

"sorry, I got carried away, that wasn't how i meant it"

or

"hey, i didn't mean that I'm sorry that it sounded that way."

would mean a lot. Hell you're halfway to the second one.

If your opinion of me has changed, Dawn, more power to you. You are wrong. If anything you two ought to apologise to me, but this is all just really nonsense. Get on with it.

Okay for my part, that's probably true. Every one of my posts on this subject has been an attempt to reconcile this, but maybe my first post came across as snarky, I did point out what I perceived to be a hypocrisy, and I'm sorry if you found that counter-productive or even a personal attack. Honestly I probably should have just left the issue alone and I'm sorry that it seems like I'm coming down on you.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

@X: Fair enough. I can't say I care enough to really argue it, since I hardly ever use the debate section. Considering that, do you really want to know? My opinion holds less weight in that case, imo. People should vote and discuss on what affects them, and since the Thanks system isn't being taken from elsewhere (or rather, it's only part of the debate section it's being eliminated from), I care a lot less.

That said, since you asked, the point I'm making is that when you start censoring people, it leads you down a slippery slope. How far do we go? Will we one day decide other places need to be censored as such? And in what other ways? Will we decide to abolish the VMs? Or PMs or what? Again, I might worrying too much, which is part of the reason why I'm not really objecting to this.

As for the "other issue", well, I can't speak to that really. Again, I've only been told that "people are being ganged up on", etc.. If you want to know if there's a bigger you have to ask elsewhere. I just keep hearing that there's these bad feelings or whatever and I always think that issues should be addressed as is, rather patched up and ignored. Since I really know so little about this (not for lack of trying, I assure you) I can only tell you that, go ahead.

Here's where I'd argue that it isn't censorship at all. People still have the same ability to communicate on the issues. In the real world there're generally rules in place on more formal debates that allow both sides of an issue to be heard and given equal consideration. That's really all this is, since the Thanks system is providing more "weight" in terms of support to one group's opinions vs. another. There's now a place that makes debates a bit more formal, and threads can be moved and removed from there as needed and as determined by those discussions' participants. It'd be censorship if we stopped it and didn't give the people in those discussions the power to decide for themselves how they want to handle said discussions.

Again, I'm still waiting on hearing more about the other issues people're having, so that we can deal with those things accordingly. Like I've said before, I'm sure that those are things that exist independent of the Thanks system, but are more visible because of it. That means that they're not issues with the system itself, but rather something else that we need to deal with accordingly as a CommunityStaff.




X

 

[Geostigma]

This is getting a bit out of hand isn't it? lol

I appreciate respecting peoples need to stay anonymous and private here. That's why we have a section where members can privately speak to Staff and voice their concerns and opinions.

Real talk if there are people out there who are concerned about this thing and still want to stay anonymous that's cool your voice can still be heard the only people who will know you spoke up is staff

Private Feedback section

 

[Ghost X]

@JT: There's no pride or snark on my part. I find your positions hypocritical: You were attacking me, doing the same thing yourself, and expecting me to apologise? Not going to happen. I initially addreased it with humour, but this has been a waste of energy. I'll ignore your post except for the last apology.

 

[Octo]

Right I haven't read the last page and a half. but Re: the new debate section as it has now been set up, there is no thanks and thats good. But I don't see how it would stop someone feeling ganged up upon if there are still going to be debates where its 1 vs 9 or whatever. Are we going to make it one on one debates or what?

I mean if the people in question are cool with it as it stands then I guess thats fine

 

[Jason Tandro]

@Ghost: As is your right. Sorry it got this far.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Right I haven't read the last page and a half. but Re: the new debate section as it has now been set up, there is no thanks and thats good. But I don't see how it would stop someone feeling ganged up upon if there are still going to be debates where its 1 vs 9 or whatever. Are we going to make it one on one debates or what?

I mean if the people in question are cool with it as it stands then I guess thats fine

Well, we'll never really be able to refine who feels how about what and ONLY let an equal number of those people discuss it - be it who you think should be president of the United States, or who you think that Cloud should date. This isn't a perfect Utopia, Octo.

Really though, I'm generally not the best person to ask about this, but I think that Flare's opinion from earlier is probably one of the more valid thoughts on how it feels being the minority member in a big debate, and how the new section alleviates concerns that the previous one didn't.

Others who feel this way are more than welcome to voice their opinions on it if they'd like.




X

 

[Dawnbreaker]

@Gab: Excellent point there. If there's other issues at hand that people don't want to air everywhere, that's a great place to go. I've used it in the past and it's effective.

@X: well, I think we're just arguing the different points of possible censorship now. I don't really want to drag this out, since again, I'm none too fussed by it...it's just that whenever you eliminate an avenue to express an opinion (even one as being able to Thank something) that's still technically censorship. But you may have a point that it's a good thing, rather than a bad thing. After all, as you and others have said, this might encourage more meaningful discussion rather than a simple, silent Thanks. You're (and some others) really making me think differently about this, tbh. Good on you.

As for the other issues, whatever, I don't know. You can ask Ghost or whoever else has brought it up. I don't personally see any "ganging up on" or whatever, but I've been told it exists, so there you go. Ask around if you like.

@Claymore: Sorry, I missed what you said. Personally, I am not a huge fan of compromise if you can do collaboration instead. That's why I'm a strong supporter of "just disable Thanks for yourself". Why go to the effort splitting apart the forum when all you have to do is just disable it for yourself? That said, as I've said before, I'm not bothered by the rest of it.

I can not like something because I disagree with it and still not fight it.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

@X: well, I think we're just arguing the different points of possible censorship now. I don't really want to drag this out, since again, I'm none to fussed by it...it's just that whenever you eliminate an avenue to express an opinion (even one as being able to Thank something) that's still technically censorship. But you may have a point that it's a good thing, rather than a bad thing. After all, as you and others have said, this might encourage more meaningful discussion rather than a simple silent Thanks. You're really making me think differently about this, tbh. Good on you.

As for the other issues, whatever, I don't know. You can Ghost or whoever else has brought it up. I don't personally see any "ganging up on" or whatever, but I've been told it exists, so there you go. Ask around if you like.

We could probably split hairs 'til the cows come home about required conduct for expression vs. censorship, but I think that at this point, the trial run of the Blind Debate section will have to speak for itself on which it ends up feeling most like, since theory and practice are frequently quite different.

Gabe's recommendation of the Private Feedback Forum, other posts here, or Ghost posting anonymous opinions are what I'll hold reservation on that end of the conversation for, and since they've yet to've been made, I'll wait to hear them before making any other comments about them.




X

 

[Jason Tandro]

I can not like something because I disagree with it and still not fight it.

Like when my wife wants to listen to the Mamma Mia! soundtrack in the car...




==

I think it's clear that we've got a solution here. I personally really like the idea of the new section. Might be a good idea to leave it here since it seems we're just going in circles - though I don't want to discourage those who haven't had the chance to speak yet from speaking up.

 

[trash panda]

Do we all realize that we're talking about a thanks button on a videa gamez forum when there are worse things happening in the world?

Me, personally...if I had an issue with this (or any other) forum based on the way things are done (including the Thanks system) I probably would have simply left and found something different. Having a thanks button is not that big of a deal. It's a button...on a forum..for video games...am I the only one who feels that this is at least borderline trivial?

There's a guy living under a makeshift blanket-tent and some trees down the street from me (insert similar issues all across the world here) and at least one person thinks that bringing up buttons on a gaming forum is worth everyone's time.

Sorry, but no. I'm usually very open minded about everything but on this matter all I'm doing is shaking my head.

 

[Dawnbreaker]

I agree entirely with you, X. Maybe this is the perfect solution. Giving it a try certainly isn't a bad thing at all.

As for the "other issues", yes, until they are made clear, I don't think the staff should have to comment on them. I don't intend to either, anymore.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Do we all realize that we're talking about a thanks button on a videa gamez forum when there are worse things happening in the world?

Me, personally...if I had an issue with this (or any other) forum based on the way things are done (including the Thanks system) I probably would have simply left and found something different. Having a thanks button is not that big of a deal. It's a button...on a forum..for video games...am I the only one who feels that this is at least borderline trivial?

There's a guy living under a makeshift blanket-tent and some trees down the street from me (insert similar issues all across the world here) and at least one person thinks that bringing up buttons on a gaming forum is worth everyone's time.

Sorry, but no. I'm usually very open minded about everything but on this matter all I'm doing is shaking my head.

Amen to this.

 

[Starling]

@Ghost: I'm pretty sure Dawn just wanted you to apologize for the way you said what you did rather than what you were saying. That's not so much making you the bad guy as wanting an apology for something they found hurtful or unnecessary before getting back to discussing what you're disagreeing about. It's where people say stuff like that and refuse to apologize because they think it means going back on their opinion that disagreements start getting out of hand. You go from something that just required a simple apology to hating each other because the person being asked doesn't want to offer one. Some people are willing to wait for an apology but the longer it takes, the more you hurt whatever relation you have to that person. You see stuff like that all over the forums. Just so you know, the way you're turning things around in your refusal to apologize is just making things worse. Please, just set aside the argument and deal with that first.

@X: I wouldn't say the issue is quite resolved when multiple people have expressed concerns that the problems associated with the thanks system isn't really caused by it and would therefore remain whether it's present or not. Despite expressing the need to discuss that before taking action on anything, it was basically glossed over in favour of everything else going on in the thread and then left undiscussed when people started considering the whole thing resolved.

Really thinking about it, the feeling of everyone being stacked against you or no one agrees with what you're saying is something that'll remain even if you can only see all the posts disagreeing with you and the absence of other people posting in agreement of what you're saying. I'll say that when I had that feeling on the forums, it was because I felt like the person I was debating with wasn't listening to what I was saying or was being disrespectful to me and no one was speaking up for anything as simple as showing I wasn't the only one having that issue with the way they were speaking to me. That's not an issue removing the thanks system is going to fix.

About what I said about the new subforum: I figured a fresh start would let people have the debate without all the baggage from before. Sure the older threads have a bunch of useful information but links can stop working and information can get outdated. Seeing as the threads still exist and you'd have to scroll through them to read the info anyway, I don't see separating them as making it much harder to find it. The forum even has a search function you can use for it.

 

[Jason Tandro]

I am right there with you Howl, on a personal level. I don't mind discussing but per my earlier stated personal opinion - if this is bothering somebody maybe... too bad?

Still I don't mind discussing anything because there are merits, but as Dawn and many others have said I don't think this is about the Thanks system as much as it is about the overarching issues of the view of outsiders and us, which is something we should address. Still as the Thanks system exists in and of itself I think what X has done was the perfect solution for the time being.

 

[Octo]

Can we draw a line under the Dawn and Ghost thing please. They're quite capable of resolving the issue between themselves. Regardless it doesn't need to derail this thread.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

@X: I wouldn't say the issue is quite resolved when multiple people have expressed concerns that the problems associated with the thanks system isn't really caused by it and would therefore remain whether it's present or not. Despite expressing the need to discuss that before taking action on anything, it was basically glossed over in favour of everything else going on in the thread and then left undiscussed when people started considering the whole thing resolved.

Really thinking about it, the feeling of everyone being stacked against you or no one agrees with what you're saying is something that'll remain even if you can only see all the posts disagreeing with you and the absence of other people posting in agreement of what you're saying. I'll say that when I had that feeling on the forums, it was because I felt like the person I was debating with wasn't listening to what I was saying or was being disrespectful to me and no one was speaking up for anything as simple as showing I wasn't the only one having that issue with the way they were speaking to me. That's not an issue removing the thanks system is going to fix.

About what I said about the new subforum: I figured a fresh start would let people have the debate without all the baggage from before. Sure the older threads have a bunch of useful information but links can stop working and information can get outdated. Seeing as the threads still exist and you'd have to scroll through them to read the info anyway, I don't see separating them as making it much harder to find it. The forum even has a search function you can use for it.

Well, I'm still waiting on hearing more specific information about what the issue that exists outside the Thanks system itself is. As I've said in the end of multiple replies to Dawn's post – until there's more specific information on exactly what that is, we can't address it. Regardless, that's still an ENTIRELY separate issue from what's being done with the Blind Debate section.

Additionally, as I mentioned to Octo, we'll never be able to make an equal number of people have conflicting opinions, and that wasn't ever something that the Blind Debate section was meant to do either. Like the previous issue, those are things that are dealt with on a more specific basis by the Staff or Community accordingly.

Lastly, the Blind Debate section itself wasn't ever meant to be a hard, new fresh start for all debates on TLS. I'm not going to split the debates between two threads, because that'd be counter-productive. Additionally, closing the existing threads would be doing a huge injustice to them, because we're not forcing anyone to use the sub-forum. Because threads can be moved both into or out of the Blind Debate area at the desire of the people involved with them, it doesn't make sense to close the thread when it might not remain there.

We're not stopping any of the ongoing debates or forcing people to discuss things in one location or another like closing the threads and making new ones would be doing. The threads' presence in that sub-section is an organic process that is managed by each thread's individual necessity as judged by the people partaking in them and can be reevaluated at any time.




X

 

[Claymore]

@Claymore: Sorry, I missed what you said. Personally, I am not a huge fan of compromise if you can do collaboration instead. That's why I'm a strong supporter of "just disable Thanks for yourself". Why go to the effort splitting apart the forum when all you have to do is just disable it for yourself? That said, as I've said before, I'm not bothered by the rest of it.

I can not like something because I disagree with it and still not fight it.

Er ... what now? How did I get dragged back into this craziness?

 

[Dawnbreaker]

Dammnit, sorry, Claymore, I think it was Minato who said the thing about compromise. Whoops. Sorry. :/

 

[Starling]

Well, I'm still waiting on hearing more specific information about what the issue that exists outside the Thanks system itself is. As I've said in the end of multiple replies to Dawn's post – until there's more specific information on exactly what that is, we can't address it. Regardless, that's still an ENTIRELY separate issue from what's being done with the Blind Debate section.

Didn't I just provide an example of that? The problem attributed to the thanks system is the feeling of being ganged up on or like no one is supporting your opinion. A lack of verbal support won't really be fixed purely from removing thanks from the equation. That kind of thing occurs in heated debates, which involves additional factors not being considered. They're still tied to debates, which is what prompted the thanks talk to begin with. Because of that, I wouldn't say it's an entirely separate issue. The whole point of bringing this up was that the thanks system might not be the real problem to begin with. If we don't talk about other debate problems and how they relate to each other, how would we know? Right now it's largely assumed the thanks system is the problem without really bothering to check if there's a deeper problem to deal with and it'll continue to be ignored if you dismiss it as a separate issue instead of actually talking about it.

Additionally, as I mentioned to Octo, we'll never be able to make an equal number of people have conflicting opinions, and that wasn't ever something that the Blind Debate section was meant to do either. Like the previous issue, those are things that are dealt with on a more specific basis by the Staff or Community accordingly.

That doesn't quite encompass the issue I brought up. Not everyone has to fully agree on something but they may not agree point for point with either "side" of the opposing opinions discussed. There would be some in the middle. Just having those people in the middle can make a difference and make debates less polarized. Likewise, things like someone speaking up when they see what someone is saying get dismissed without really being addressed can make a difference too.

The way I see it, the debate issues all come into play when things start to get heated. Thus, you need to ask why things get heated. It seems that debates get heated when people feel aggravated. Why do they feel aggravated? For a number of reasons that include things like the argument going nowhere, feeling like they aren't being listened to, feeling talked down to or otherwise disrespected, etc. Wouldn't that make them feel the same way as what people have been attributing to the thanks system? So then how would dealing with the thanks system actually solve that? We need to look at the bigger picture.

Lastly, the Blind Debate section itself wasn't ever meant to be a hard, new fresh start for all debates on TLS. I'm not going to split the debates between two threads, because that'd be counter-productive. Additionally, closing the existing threads would be doing a huge injustice to them, because we're not forcing anyone to use the sub-forum. Because threads can be moved both into or out of the Blind Debate area at the desire of the people involved with them, it doesn't make sense to close the thread when it might not remain there.

We're not stopping any of the ongoing debates or forcing people to discuss things in one location or another like closing the threads and making new ones would be doing. The threads' presence in that sub-section is an organic process that is managed by each thread's individual necessity as judged by the people partaking in them and can be reevaluated at any time.

I was a bit preoccupied with keeping up with the discussion on this thread so I wasn't clear on the details of what you were planning on doing with the subforum. I wouldn't call closing a thread a disrespect, considering some threads simply get closed due to sheer length and then a new thread is made to continue the discussion without having to deal with that. That said, I got the chance to read up on how you're using it and the fact that the threads will be moving around as needed suffices to explain why a fresh start wouldn't make sense. I initially had the impression threads were permanently being moved to the subforum and that simply making new versions of the threads in that section would allow people to get into the topic without being weighed down by prior out of hand portions of those debates.