The battle against sexist book covers in sci-fi and fantasy

[Obsidian Fire]

Very good point to make Dac, comics are definitely high fantasy. I would add that even though they are high fantasy, they are still a high fantasy taking place in the real world, and because of that, they have to realistically mesh with the real world and one of the ways they do that is by having realistically proportioned men and woman. Only they often don't.

As it is, comic book heroes don't mesh with the real word on a fundamental level because the reason they are heroes is because they have unique abilities, whether that be by accident or on purpose. As those abilities are special, even in the comic books, heroes don't mesh with the real world from the very start. Having unrealistic body types, costumes, etc. doesn't help them fell like they belong in the real world. Instead it makes them stick out all the more.

High fantasy that doesn't take place in the real world can get away with a lot more, because it's not supposed to be reality in the first place. Also, high fantasy where the hero's abilities are not unique to just him can make the hero unique in other ways (like appearance) as it's already been established that their abilities are not what makes them special.

 

[looneymoon]

Also ask the question "who's high fantasy is this? how is reality informing this fantasy?"

Those are the key questions really. Fiction and reality are not diametrically opposed. They reflect another.

Not to mention the art style of even some really good comic artists can really border on uncanny valley.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Thanks for that Dac, I know youre not around anymore, but for the benefit of others: what I was getting at with the thing and juggernaut wasn't so much physical strength but appearance. The examples of female characters that you listed, I looked them up. While they are more muscular than the average female character theyre still very feminine. None of them seem to have lost their boobs like many female athletes and bodybuilders do. I feel that the design is still meant to appeal to men.

Not sure how relevant this is, but there was actually a storyline several years ago in which She-Hulk was briefly married. She preferred being in her transformed state, as she only felt powerful then, while her husband preferred her as Jennifer Walters.

"Preferred" may not even be the appropriate word here, as he was outright put off by her transformed state.

Again, that may not be as relevant as I think it is (may not quite put her in the role of a female Thing), but She-Hulk certainly lacks the more traditional sexual appeal of, say, Gamora, another green-skinned, deadly female in Marvel comics.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

The examples of female characters that you listed, I looked them up. While they are more muscular than the average female character theyre still very feminine. None of them seem to have lost their boobs like many female athletes and bodybuilders do. I feel that the design is still meant to appeal to men.

Wouldn't a strong female character still looking feminine, as in, you know, female, appeal to women (especially in being able to relate or project yourself onto that character) as much as it does to men?

 

[looneymoon]

I wrote a response to the above but it got eaten

Point form version:

- how are you defining strong? (physically? or strong as in a good, well-written character?)
- what constitutes as visually appealing/beautiful and why? why are ideas surrounding "beauty" so frigid?

on comic book characters
- muscles. lots of them. fantastically ginormous muscles.
- i'm sure lots of females find muscles as a signal of strength empowering. in fact i'm sure many do. but that only refers to a very particular number.
- i personally (and can speak for a lot of females) don't exactly find big muscles as an indicator of power, and don't really feel all that empowered or envious seeing them on female bodies or characters [of the comic book variety].
- tbh the whole muscles = power is a very "male"* thing.
- so giving a female character lots of muscles can really come off as appealing to a "male" sentiment as a way to earn "male" respect in a "male" endeavour.
- "female"* respect can definitely be earned in ways other than image.
- (*quoted because these gendered concepts are really fluid).
- i'm sure that can be done if they open up the book and read it, which is great!
- but the "don't judge a book by its cover" argument doesn't exactly hold a lot of weight when talking about a medium which relies heavily on visual language.
- it doesn't make you shallow to be put off a something visual if the images really aren't to your liking. pictures are as much part of the story as the words, plot, etc.

then i went on a ff7-related tangent that i don't really care to summarise.

 

[Cthulhu]

I wrote a response to the above but it got eaten

Just dropping this browzar addon in here. It's quite good,

 

[Splintered]

sadface@chrome extension.

I have this really jumbled up argument that really goes nowhere but oh well.

1. I don't think there's really an argument that females have less variety than the males in comicbooks. Not just talking about bodies, I'm talking about sameface and just general well... everything. It's more diverse now, but even using Hulk and She-hulk. Yeah all images I've seen of her is really muscular and stuff, but let's compare

Definitely still in safemode. But I don't think that's just a dude thing, I think even girls generally like their girls prettier too.

2. There are plenty of really terrible covers I've seen from the Hawkeye Initiative, but the one image posted in the OP... I don't see the sexism or hypersexuality that the argument is based around?

Kind of awesome actually. Reminds me of Parasite Eve.

3. I absolutely don't think that all these complaints about sexism in comicbook art is coming from outside the industry. The Hawkeye Initiative for example, are made by fans. I've read a couple of articles written by some hardcore female comicbook fans. This isn't even limited to the women in the fandom, Linkara at the top of my head is a well known internet comicbook reviewer who has talked about this multiple times.

Back when I was trying to figure out whether or not I wanted to pick up the new catwoman comic, I was hanging out on ScansDaily, and they definitely are hardcore fans who are frustrated with the ways things are going. But then again, they enjoy their gracious Dick Grayson butt shots so who knows.

This isn't a new dialogue magically appearing from comicbook haters and the conservative media or whatever. Then again, I'm coming from someone who isn't in the fandom so you can take what I saw with a truckload of salt.

4. But also at the same time, I think it's less to do with the industry as a whole and more to do with different artists? I was looking at some of the discussion about some of the images and the one image posted with the "GOSH I LOVE ARROWS" was drawn by an artist by the name of Greg Land

The problem is that many female characters are draw as if they were starring in a porn magazine, while many of them are very poorly drawn/have alien proportions.

Hilariously, the artist apparently admitted to redrawing from porn scenes. There are a couple of artists that I noticed if they are mention, draws out the angry fangirls because they are notorious for weird ass shit.

This is drawn by Lefield who is apparently a shitty artist in general, how did he get a fucking job anyway? Oh well.

5. Leotards are ugly. Actually this has little do with the way women are depicted, I just find them really ugly. There are a lot of things I see people get pissed about, Powergirl's boob window and highheels, neither of which I care. But what's with the ugly as shit leotards.

6. From what I remember reading, a lot of the more disagreeable stuff comes out of the 90s. The weird proportions for women like the images above were twice as bad and I heard a lot about women portrayal going down the drain. But the 90s had a lot of other issues with comicbooks (the Dark Age apparently), with them trying to be cooler and edgier, it wasn't just about the women it was the whole mentality. And since then, comicbooks have been at least attempting to mature.

7. I read the 2nd and 3rd run of Catwomen, and for a character that's all about sexuality... I don't think there was anything offensively hypersexualized about it? The characterization and art bounced around but that's what I said before, an artist issue. But overall, it's not like all the women all the time are being tied up or something. I can't say anything about the new run though.

8. I want superpowers.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Rob Liefeld and Greg Land are two of the worst comic artists to ever achieve mainstream status. While the fact that they did so warrants a stern finger wagging and raises valid questions of the industry, most comic fans despise them both.

More so Land than Liefeld, I'd say, but both are known for sucking.

 

[looneymoon]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure the strongest critics (be it on the amount of sexism or otherwise) comes from inside the industry itself.

 

[Octo]

Wouldn't a strong female character still looking feminine, as in, you know, female, appeal to women (especially in being able to relate or project yourself onto that character) as much as it does to men?

Well personally, speaking as a hobbit , I can't really relate to that body type. I have big boobs but if wore a leotard and did acrobatics they would fall out and hit me in the face and possibly destroy a building. I can't relate to that anymore than the supermodels in fashion magazines.

There is much more variance in the male body types than the females. Furthermore big boobs =/= feminine. Sure boobs are a mainly feminine trait, but its not the be all and end all. Thats a simplified femininity through a male prism.

Maybe girls do like girls prettier I dunno. I just dont see why all females have to be attractive...I'd like to see female equivalents of Two-Face or Thing etc. I think the feminine/sexy but strong thing has been done to death.

 

[Tetsujin]

I can't really relate to that body type. I have big boobs but if wore a leotard and did acrobatics they would fall out and hit me in the face and possibly destroy a building.

The mental image I had of that was just glorious.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Destroy a building? Did you get your superpowers when your boobs fell in a vat of something, Octo?

 

[Octo]

Nope, just weight gain then weight loss then pregnancy left me with the boobs mr fantastic would have. If he was a woman

 

[Deleted member 546]

PICS OR IT'S ALL LIES.

IMHO, if I saw some artwork I liked the look of, I'd buy it. The story could be shit or the character a godsawful cliché, but if the artwork's good then I'm interested. The body type/sexism aspect doesn't really bother me.
Don't know if being bi has any bearing on that. Hmm. In RL I like my ladies petite (or at least smaller than me). Not sure about that in relation to hnnnnng muscular sexy nom leotards.

 

[Max Payne]

Sigh I didn't want to get back into this but theres so much being said here that annoys me that I just can't ignore.

Muscles represent power for a reason. The primary function of muscles is to provide strength. They arent associated with such because men are the only ones to have them or whatever nonsense. The stronger/healthier a person's muscles are the more physically capable they are.

Look at the legs on an olympic runner. See how powerful the muscles in their legs are? The muscles on the men and women in the world's strongest contests, see how thick and stocky their muscles are? Gymnasts are pretty fucking ripped too.

There's a sizeable portion of the human population, regardless of gender who idealize muscles and powerful physiques, you need only look at the fitness industry and the scores of male and female fitness models and body builders(not even counting the ones who take steroids and destroy much of their feminine traits/testicles as a result).

Muscles = power. In life anyone with a great amount of physical strength is going to have muscles, with the exception of those freaks who can fucking break concrete and rocks with their magic kung fu powers, but that's far from normal. .

If you want to be strong you have to build muscle, the stronger you are the bigger/more ripped your muscles will be. It doesn't matter what you associate strength with personally.

The entire point of muscles is to provide strength.

That's why it's so common for the most powerful/human superheroes to be toned, and athletic with rippling muscles. These are fighters, and warriors who are typically engaged in quite a bit of physical activity.

When people see someone with large ripped muscles, people are intimidated because they know just how much damage that person can do to the average person. Mike Tyson was huge back in his day, and he could knock large muscled men out with one fucking punch. The man was known for the power of his punches. One look at his arms would tell you why.

I mean, there's a good reason people, both men and women alike are intimidated by Serena Williams. I think shes fucking hot though.

There is much more variance in the male body types than the females.

See, that's not really true.

Spoiler: since words arent enough

The Leper Queen

Monster Girl doesn't even resemble a female when she uses her powers

Big Bertha is pretty much the female version of the blob, with the added ability of shrinking back down into a normal sized person

Callisto has always been depicted as a thin, mannish woman with a generally unpleasant demeanor

Amanda Waller before dc fucked her up

Kryb for the freak factor

Mongal

Gertrude has always been short and chubby, save for a few stupid artists depictions of her

She Hulk is also known to hulk out and lose control from time to time just like her cousin:

Finesse is very thin and athletic with small breasts like a lot of acrobatic females who don't have powers in comics

As is ultimate spider woman

Dethlocket

Lady Deathstrike is traditionally an anorexic cyborg

Granny Goodness

Stompa

Karu Sil, I'm just listing her mostly cause her freakish no lipped beady eyed face freaks me out

Seraph aged a good bit

skitter

Cassandra Nova

Atom eve recently went from being your average thin superhero

to being a plus sized woman after her pregnancy

Squirrel Girl has always been pretty average/weird looking when it comes to looks, no huge breasts for her.

This isnt even all of them. I can't even remember all of the character's names.

It's hard to find pictures of her but Coagula didn't look like a supermodel either if I remember correctly, she was a transsexual but she still counts imo. People glorify the really attractive comic book characters much more than the ones like these which is why they get much more attention.

Sure sometimes artists mistakenly draw these characters as your commonly attractive archetypes but this is typically frowned on by creators and and fans alike. You should have seen the uproar when someone like jubilee who is typically short( as short as wolverine no less) and flat was drawn tall with double d breasts. For a more recent example, when Amanda Waller was turned into a skinny super model. It offended the fanbase as a whole.

There are quite a few comic book females who don't have large breasts. Thin athletic women with average sized/small breasts are pretty common. The problem is consistency with artists, who don't hold true to characters and draw them how they want them to look, instead of what they really look like.

Girls do love prettier characters too, you need only look at the scores of fangirls popular anime characters have. Both male and female characters. They excuse monsters like Griffith in Berserk just cause he's pretty. Never mind he raped the main character's girl friend, cut his hand off, and killed all his friends.

I mean he's just so dang pretty.

Okay I'm done, for real this time.

 

[looneymoon]

Okay. Muscles is power because that's what they mean to you. That's kind of a given that lots of people think that? It's fair enough. My point was that for every person that does, there probably are just as many who finds the way they are imaged distasteful.

Let's say that over-the-top musculature is, always has been and always will be something fundamental to the genre. For the sake of the argument let's say that definitely these are good designs a girl comic reader will be able to like and relate to. And that's cool, those girls exist.

So how often do you see them?
Do they ever at any point make a "porn star" pose?
How much do they matter to their respective books?
Are they iconic?
Are they good characters?
Are they main characters?
Do they have their own titles?
Do females ever get the chance to write/draw them?
Do they pass the Bechdel test?

Sure you can dig up a couple of characters who potentially serve as perfect cases of variety. The fact that they are around is literally the barest of bare minimums, and especially pathetic when you consider a 70+ year history. Not to mention looking at individual cases doesn't speak towards the misgivings of a system. One swallow doesn't make a summer. Waving around strong female characters isn't exactly evidence that the industry is free of rampant misogyny. That's why feminist-fans get pissed off. It's the reason things like The Hawkeye Initiative are so well received.

 

[Octo]

Dac you should have posted those examples in the first place, when I looked them up the first lot of image results was their"sexy/normal" form. Telling if you ask me

Edit: to clarify I'm talking about the ones listed in your prior post.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Sure you can dig up a couple of characters who potentially serve as perfect cases of variety. The fact that they are around is literally the barest of bare minimums, and especially pathetic when you consider a 70+ year history. Not to mention looking at individual cases doesn't speak towards the misgivings of a system. One swallow doesn't make a summer. Waving around strong female characters isn't exactly evidence that the industry is free of rampant misogyny. That's why feminist-fans get pissed off. It's the reason things like The Hawkeye Initiative are so well received.

I'm going to save Dacon the effort of asking to be un-suspended so he can respond to this, as I know he'll flip his shit, and I know why.

There could not be a more misappropriate word to describe these comics with than "misogyny." Female characters -- especially powerful women -- are nothing short of glorified within the industry, by both fans and creators alike. They're not hated, nor seen as threatening to the power and presence of the male characters.

They are the wet dream of so many dudes it's not even funny.

Emma Frost. Wonder Woman. Elektra. Phoenix. Rogue. Hawkwoman. Ms. Marvel. Jessica Drew. Invisible Woman. Storm. Black Widow. Mystique. Supergirl. Wonder Girl (both Donna Troy and Cassandra Sandsmark). Catwoman.

I dare say they elicit more passion from male fans than their male teammates. Comicdom absolutely loves its powerful women.

The worst it can be accused of is appearances it potentially idealises, depicting most of them with pretty faces and slender-to-athletic builds -- which, as established, is a) what you would expect of warriors (with regard to physique), b) true of their male contemporaries, and c) what most female comic fans would like to see anyway.

 

[looneymoon]

Ehhhhhh well-intentioned imagery doesn't eradicate the fact a lot of this stems from a really hateful mindset. There's a really definite "I'm here to please you Mr. Book Reader" type thing. Plus I'm talkingg towards more the industry and less the fandom, since like I said, the fandom are the most vocal critics.

How are images like that of Power Girl, with a coy expression, lying on the floor towered over by a bunch of dudes? How does that image intersect with the "porn star" poses? What lens does it give someone when they see this stuff? How is that not misogynistic? How is thhat even sex-positive?

Alan Moore is one of those really amazing, big name writers, and he's obsessed with having his female characters raped every time you turn around.

You could say "well, that's one image and one author, nitpicking etc." But once again, that's not the point. People pick these things out because it points to a much larger attitude problem. Take it back to that conversation I posted earlier. Does that guy actually want to talk to a person, or just a pair of tits? If he does, why the suspicion? Why try to weed them out of that space? Does he even like women??

That's what it seems like companies like Marvel and DC do. There's a huge demographic out there, but they keep slapping themselves in the face and alienating people. Maybe they are trying, however haphazardly, but in a lot of ways it really seems they want to keep it a boys club. That's where sentiments of misogyny arise.

I'm quoting another column when I say "if I were to hand the average comic to the average female and asked her if she thought this was sexist and she said yes, that's not her problem, it's the book's problem."

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

No doubt there are still issues with diversification in appearance and characterization as well (true of males and females, though; also probably debatable how much an issue the issues actually are since the things we're discussing are somewhat defining to the medium), and I won't disagree that the lens is still largely a male gaze. I'm just arguing that this particular lens really likes chicks who can level buildings.

As for the conversation you mentioned earlier, there are definitely some douches in the fandom, same as any other. Hell, you still have some dudes who are wary of the girl gamer, though that's less prevalent in gaming than with mainstream comics.

In general, I've found that guys who are into comics get really excited by girls who are into comics, though -- and rather than trying to one-up them or "put them in their place," they either want to know what they've read/are into so as to find out how kindred a spirit she may be, or so that they can recommend stuff to her she may have missed.

I don't have anything more than my personal experiences and observations to substantiate that, but I've been into comics since before I could read and have spent an ungodly amount of time in comic shops, at conventions and on comic book forums. Less so in the past three years since I got an actual life. Before that, though, suffice to say I didn't have one and could count myself among eligible bachelors who would be trippin' balls over a girl into comics and instantly consider her for date/potential partner material on that basis alone. Double points if she was also a gamer.

 

[Elisa Maza]

Don't know how relevant/irrelevant this is to everything that was said, but...

No More Hawkeye Initiative. It's Taylor Lautner Initiative now.

OK, as you were.

 

[Dawnbreaker]

See now maybe it's because I'm not a huge comic book fan but what I have seen doesn't cause me too much concern. Sure the odd cover is a bit extreme, and some of the stories aren't exactly flattering of women, but I can't say that I feel oppressed by the comic industry. Like Hawke said, there are dozens of strong capable women in comics, and the most I can see that's bad about that is that some of them are proportionally unrealistic. So comics have a flaw. Every medium does.

As for the whole 'most guys are happy when a girl is a gamer'...this is a true, though I do want to point out that a lot of guys act strangely around a girl gamer. I've been accused of being lesbian (not that it would bother me to have people think me lesbian but I don't like the accusing part), dressed down as being silly (as in it's not for women) and also generally worshipped in the most annoyingly and creepy ways.

 

[looneymoon]

also a classic

 

[Arianna]

I haven't read anyone else's opinions or facts, but if I may:

I will admit, some of it is jealousy on my part. While I may have size to my chest, I do not have shape. They be just there. So, looking at women half naked with these naturally big and perfectly shaped breasts is irksome on different degrees, at different times. I'm like, "Gods! Can't I have one thing that's beautiful!?"

Honestly, the societal values are apparent, but for the most part also unobtainable (except through surgery) for some if not most (if not all!) I think people should be honored and valued for who they are; and, what they look like, while part of that, is to be taken as their unique self - not a failing or a passing.

Perhaps I'm an idealist, some may even say I'm unrealistic, but... This is where I stand.

 

[Deleted member 546]

Having read through the various standpoints and perusing the links, etc., I think this debate has lost its way a little.

The battle against sexist book covers in sci-fi and fantasy

If Looneymoon's last post is anything to go by, it has become a shameless parody of a clearly misunderstood convention.
Pretty girls get pushed to the limelight in every form of media, films are a classic example. Look at JK Rowling, she was a frump when the first Harry Potter book was released, now she's immaculately dressed because she's in the public focus. You think Lara Croft would have been such a successful moneymaker if she'd been left as her original design intended? Fuck no!
Let's face it, society as a whole gets a kick out of aesthetics. Mother Teresa vs. Princess Diana, no contest. Mother Teresa was by far the bigger conributor to humanity, but Princess Diana was a doe-eyed heroine who walked from a Royal marriage smelling of roses.

I'm not saying it's right, but that's how it is. Targeting one medium isn't going to make a jot of difference.