The dynamics of Deepground and SOLDIER

[Shizuka]

I think we are forgetting why he snapped, he didn't just go to Nibilhiem and decided to burn the village down. He found out terrible things (though not entirely true) about his birth. He, Angeal and Gensis all handled it differently but on different levels of how bad they handled it.

Clearly Sephiroth's psyche wasn't the most stable but anyone had been to war generally are not obviously on top form when it comes their state of mind. And regardless of that I'm sure whoever found out that their parents willingly allowed their unborn child up for experimentation wouldn't handled it that well.

 

[jazzflower92]

I think what the Compilation seems to miss is Sephiroth's early years that could fill a lot of gaps into probably why he snapped. I actually think Sephiroth did have a lot of complexes that he kept under the rug in order to appear professional. The Compilation never seems to go out of its way to describe Sephiroth's childhood or time in the war. I mean its not that difficult to write a book series about it and it would actually be a good addition to the FF7 lore as well.

Knowing Shinra they probably didn't care that much if Sephiroth had any mental problems because they never had any outbreaks with him in the past. Also were these mental problems pushed to the service by Jenova's doing.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Clearly Sephiroth's psyche wasn't the most stable but anyone had been to war generally are not obviously on top form when it comes their state of mind. And regardless of that I'm sure whoever found out that their parents willingly allowed their unborn child up for experimentation wouldn't handled it that well.

I think this was a big part of my problem with Crisis Core. You've now got three special snowflakes who were experimented on prior to birth in almost identical fashion and each one goes batshit over it. That's boring.

Where's the one guy who said, "Yeah, I really don't give a shit. I'm here now"?

Angeal handled it the best of the three, and that isn't saying much. He still instantly decided that it meant who he is in the present, the code of honor he lives by, the achievements he has made -- all of it meant nothing. And then he commits assisted suicide. That's fucking stupid and weak.

Seriously, none of these guys impress me. No one gets to decide where they come from, you petulant, spineless idiots.

 

[jazzflower92]

I think this was a big part of my problem with Crisis Core. You've now got three special snowflakes who were experimented on prior to birth in almost identical fashion and each one goes batshit over it. That's boring.

Where's the one guy who said, "Yeah, I really don't give a shit. I'm here now"?

Angeal handled it the best of the three, and that isn't saying much. He still instantly decided that it meant who he is in the present, the code of honor he lives by, the achievements he has made -- all of it meant nothing. And then he commits assisted suicide. That's fucking stupid and weak.

Seriously, none of these guys impress me. No one gets to decide where they come from, you petulant, spineless idiots.

Which is actually kind of why I like "Final Fantasy 7:Another Side" which actually has Sephiroth stay good and Genesis be the one to burn down Nibelheim. And it actually addresses the issue of Sephiroth's prior to birth experimentation better than in canon.

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/6595872/1/Final-Fantasy-VII-Another-Side

 

[Shizuka]

I think this was a big part of my problem with Crisis Core. You've now got three special snowflakes who were experimented on prior to birth in almost identical fashion and each one goes batshit over it. That's boring.

Where's the one guy who said, "Yeah, I really don't give a shit. I'm here now"?

Angeal handled it the best of the three, and that isn't saying much. He still instantly decided that it meant who he is in the present, the code of honor he lives by, the achievements he has made -- all of it meant nothing. And then he commits assisted suicide. That's fucking stupid and weak.

Seriously, none of these guys impress me. No one gets to decide where they come from, you petulant, spineless idiots.

My problem with CC was how the three of them handled their reasons behind their birth like you said Hawkeye and prior to CC I always thought Sephiroth was the first to be experimented on with Jenova cells and the whole wing thing annoyed me as well. In the OG I always took OWA Sephiroth as representation of the biblical sense of a fallen angel. Not literal.

Angeal indeed reacted the best of the three but again not the greatest reaction. My point to which I don't understand why didn't they take their anger out towards ShinRa rather than the planet? I am beginning to think that Jenova has played a critical and dominant role in Sephiroth's madness. As his reaction and character was such a change.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Plus in the OG at least the revelation about Sephiroth's genesis came to him out of nowhere, and the suddenness of the horrific discoveries goes some way to help explain why he flipped his lid. In Crisis Core the truth seems to leak out slowly, over a period of months if not years, which means he must have had a pretty strong inking that there was something "monstrous" about him long before the epiphany at Nibelheim.

Hawkeye wrote:

" And then he commits assisted suicide. That's fucking stupid and weak."

Tseng thinks so too.

 

[jazzflower92]

It makes me wonder how much of a closet mental case Sephiroth was before the infamous mission. From the looks of it he probably could control those issues but being near Jenova probably made them manifest to a really horrible level.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Oddly enough, Sephiroth gets the closest thing to a pass for his reaction out of the three since being near Jenova did mess with him. What excuse do Angeal and Genesis have, though? Morons.

... Sephiroth's genesis ...

I see what you did there.

 

[jazzflower92]

Oddly enough, Sephiroth gets the closest thing to a pass for his reaction out of the three since being near Jenova did mess with him. What excuse do Angeal and Genesis have, though? Morons.



I see what you did there.

Bad writing?

 

[Clement Rage]

Oddly enough, Sephiroth gets the closest thing to a pass for his reaction out of the three since being near Jenova did mess with him. What excuse do Angeal and Genesis have, though? Morons.



I see what you did there.

Despair and being terminally ill respectively. Think about it.

Angeal has a massive white wing growing out of him. Think Shinra are just going to let him keep teaching? It's defect or be locked in Hojo's lab for the rest of his life. He wants to help his terminally ill friend with as few casualties as possible, but without being used to create monsters. Only guess what? His only remaining friend is using him to create monsters that are killing people. He could just run, but he's still a fugitive from Shinra, so they'll be sending people after him, people who he has trained, and who he will have to kill to stay alive. And if one is strong enough to take him, he'll end up locked in a lab being used to create monsters.

It's not just 'I am a monster', it's 'I am the keystone to an army of monsters'. Remember Hollander's reaction? 'Just one sample'. Angeal is trying to deny him the use of any more copies, that's why he merges with the Angeal copies on site. It's like the infected guy in a zombie movie who asks his friends to kill himj so he'll stop spreading the monster plague.

And Genesis? Because of those experiments, he is doomed to rot from the inside for the next several years. He blames the experimenters, views the entire town of Banora as culpable for it, and Shinra as a whole.

 

[Shizuka]

In the OG it made far more sense on why Sephiroth snapped as LicoriceAllsorts said this came to him out of nowhere. In CC I did wonder why Sephiroth never question why he was so gifted instead of coming to the conclusion that "he was just special."

Genesis reaction really wasn't out of character. I mean look at the fight between himself,Sephiroth and Angeal his attitude had not changed much prior to degradation apart from deciding to take his anger out on the planet.

 

[jazzflower92]

In the OG it made far more sense on why Sephiroth snapped as LicoriceAllsorts said this came to him out of nowhere. In CC I did wonder why Sephiroth never question why he was so gifted instead of coming to the conclusion that "he was just special."

Genesis reaction really wasn't out of character. I mean look at the fight between himself,Sephiroth and Angeal his attitude had not changed much prior to degradation apart from deciding to take his anger out on the planet.

Agree with you about Genesis he really came off as arrogant, obnoxious, and snobby before his degradation. Heck, even times when the narrative tries to make him look sympathetic he still manages to be unlikable.

I think about why Sephiroth never questioned he was so gifted is maybe just took it for granted ever since he was young because he has had it drilled into his head that he was special.

 

[Shizuka]

I totally agree with you jazz but we are going to get into trouble again for Genesis bashing. .

Yeah I can see ShinRa drilling it into Sephiroth's head about being special and that works really well for the OG but in CC surely he would of questioned everything. Seeing two people that came closer than anybody in terms of power (though in my opinion wasn't on par with him) started sprouting wings and able to make copies of oneself, finding out that the science department had experimented on them but yet still doesn't question his origins? Seems a bit far fetched.

Even in the OG in the reactor scene he says sonething among these lines (I don't have the script) "from childhood I knew I was special but not like this."

So we do see from a early age he questioned his true origins and what exactly he was but that's never ventured to deeply in CC.

 

[jazzflower92]

I totally agree with you jazz but we are going to get into trouble again for Genesis bashing. .

Yeah I can see ShinRa drilling it into Sephiroth's head about being special and that works really well for the OG but in CC surely he would of questioned everything. Seeing two people that came closer than anybody in terms of power (though in my opinion wasn't on par with him) started sprouting wings and able to make copies of oneself, finding out that the science department had experimented on them but yet still doesn't question his origins? Seems a bit far fetched.

Even in the OG in the reactor scene he says sonething among these lines (I don't have the script) "from childhood I knew I was special but not like this."

So we do see from a early age he questioned his true origins and what exactly he was but that's never ventured to deeply in CC.

Maybe it has to do with the lousy writing in Crisis Core that relies on bad retcons that disrupts the OG's narrative.

 

[Clement Rage]

I'm not seeing the Compilation's Sephiroth snapping being worse for not being sudden. Everything we see in the OG still happens, but now Sephiroth is under more pressure.

He still has several days of sleep deprivation under his belt, he still realises nothing he knows is true, he stiil realises that he can't trust his bosses...

But now he's went to some lengths to avoid having to hunt down and kill his best friends, only to find that his new friend killed his oldest friend and his last surviving friend sees him only as a means to curing his illness.

Now, the only people he's felt any kinship with have already defected or gone insane, and he's alone at the top. For all we know, he's already been wondering what diffferentiates them from him, and maybe clinging to 'I'm not like them.' I'm special, more than just a project' as means of distinguishing himself...and then he finds out that he's not, he's no more than a Shinra project just like them.

Violent deaths of close friends can have an impact, even on hardened soldiers. I don't see this as being more implausible due to being a slower process.

 

[jazzflower92]

I'm not seeing the Compilation's Sephiroth snapping being worse for not being sudden. Everything we see in the OG still happens, but now Sephiroth is under more pressure.

He still has several days of sleep deprivation under his belt, he still realises nothing he knows is true, he stiil realises that he can't trust his bosses...

But now he's went to some lengths to avoid having to hunt down and kill his best friends, only to find that his new friend killed his oldest friend and his last surviving friend sees him only as a means to curing his illness.

Now, the only people he's felt any kinship with have already defected or gone insane, and he's alone at the top. For all we know, he's already been wondering what diffferentiates them from him, and maybe clinging to 'I'm not like them.' I'm special, more than just a project' as means of distinguishing himself...and then he finds out that he's not, he's no more than a Shinra project just like them.

Violent deaths of close friends can have an impact, even on hardened soldiers. I don't see this as being more implausible due to being a slower process.

When you put that way it does make sense.

 

[T@ctic]

This left-brain right-brain crap is complete simplistic bullshit. No one in educational circles takes it seriously. No one in neuroscience circles either as far as I know.

PS If it actually meant anything, Sephiroth would be right-brained (just like me) because he is left-handed and your left brain supposedly controls your right side and vice-versa.

PPS. The Wikia is often wrong. Inevitably, really, when you think of how many people are constantly editing and re-editing it. People's headcanon creeps in. IIRC correctly at one point it said that Reno's surname was Sinclair (not true; Reno doesn't have a surname); it also used to aver that Rufus spent the four years of his captivity during BC in Junon (not true). The Wikia is a fabulous resource and I use it all the time, but it's hardly infallible.

PPPS What is your criteria for insane? You don't think it's at all insane to base your entire life's philosophy and your hope for a cure for your terrible wasting disease on several dozen lines of crappy poetry that doesn't even scan? Genesis is not mysterious, and Square Enix saying he is doesn't make him so. He's just a git. Bugenhagen, now - he's mysterious.

PPPPS -If only we knew Sephiroth's blood type, that would tell us something. I'm type A, like Yuffie and Vincent. Which explains why I seem to be an optional character in my own life.

*shrug* very well then. introversion doesnt exist. but id like to ask you a question. where in any quotes of any book of FFVII history say that sephiroth, angeal and genesis werent friends?

 

[jazzflower92]

*shrug* very well then. introversion doesnt exist. but id like to ask you a question. where in any quotes of any book of FFVII history say that sephiroth, angeal and genesis werent friends?

Like its been said before in game Sephiroth seems to have doubts about their friendship because of their defection. It seems to imply that Sephiroth's relationship with both wasn't as strong as it seemed. He seemed to have this third wheel effect going with them because of the fact that he met both of them during the Wutai War. He couldn't relate to what both had gone through with each other since childhood.

 

[T@ctic]

Sorry to jump in but I just wanted to ask Orah this seen as you keep avoiding what I previously said on this.

I know in your opinion you think the three of them were best friends. So how do you explain the Nibilhiem scene? Where Genesis literally turns Sephiroth's life upside down.

True friends even after a big fall out never would want to destroy one another's lives (Genesis did precisely that and worse as this turned Sephiroth into wanting to destroy the planet. He then got what he wanted as with Sephiroth out of the picture he could take the hero role)

If Genesis truly cared for Sephiroth he wouldn't want him to find out about the horrible truth behind his birth he would want to shield him from that pain. And before it gets said "Genesis needed to tell Sephiroth the truthas he needed his cells."
Sephiroth was a willing participant in giving his blood to Genesis from the get go and I am sure if he hasn't been such a dick about things he would if happily gone through with the transfusion.

ahhhhh there you are! i wuz wonderin' where you were : (

i now understand why everyone is such a cutthroat at me.

what you are doing is talking about the friendship in the AFTER timeline. what i am doing is talking about the friendship on the PAST timeline. i never said that the trio is friends for life. its plain to see the entire group broke up. my point is that they WERE best friends. genesis telling sephiroth about himself was AFTER they were best friends. i never said they were ALWAYS best friends. is that what you think im trying to argue?

genesis was also telling him in the way he did out the contempt and anger he had for shin-ra, which why he mocked sephiroth's rank ("SOLDIER, 1st class, Sephiroth!"). and he confused sephiroth up by saying "you never met your mother, have you?" implying that "shinra didnt even have enough nerve to show YOU your own mother." maybe genesis was told this same argument by hollander too and he mirrored it to sephiroth. when sephiroth told genesis to "go decay" he was hurt, confused, and shaken by the means of shin-ra itself. but this is 100% opinion so this doesnt mean anything.

anyway i dont see any quotes of any kind saying "sephiroth, angeal, and genesis werent all the close at all" or saying "sephiroth, angeal, and genesis werent friends. they just worked together". like i said, all im trying to say is that they WERE close friends. and there is proof to back up this.

genesis did act like a jerk. before AND after. im not denying who genesis was. but angeal and sephiroth could push that aside and keep him as a close friend, proven by the quotes.

as a matter of fact even ZACK didnt even like genesis, his MENTOR'S best friend. he was already exasperated with genesis when he came to fight him in the end with the way he acted. the only reason why he faced genesis to save him was because it would be what angeal wanted him to do it. when zack walks away with cloud on his shoulder it shows hes not too cool with genesis.

 

[T@ctic]

Like its been said before in game Sephiroth seems to have doubts about their friendship because of their defection. It seems to imply that Sephiroth's relationship with both wasn't as strong as it seemed. He seemed to have this third wheel effect going with them because of the fact that he met both of them during the Wutai War. He couldn't relate to what both had gone through with each other since childhood.

lol a total SFLR but i think all of you have me mistaken. my points are that sephiroth, angeal, and genesis WERE all friends. you guys are thinking im saying they ARE all friends, which is rediculous because is obvious they arent. sephiroth's "I wonder..." is besides my point because that applied to AFTER their close friendship. it doesnt apply to my points. if your points are that sephiroth was doubting their friendship afterwards, i cant deny it. i agree. but that wasnt my point.

the reason why i left was because i just like to float around in the lifestream (pun very much intended) rather than comment and make my existence noticed. also, i was comtemplating on your points as well as mine and i came to the conclusion of why we were clashing so much. i hope you understand my points now, as much as i do to yours.

i also apologize for my rude/trollish comments on the LTD page. i must have been high off my stupidity at that time. you wont be getting any more silly comments from me.

thank you for standing such a stupid person,

Orah

And, for that matter, again: Fuhito wanted only to protect the planet, yet was not a good guy. Call him insane all you like, but Genesis is a fucking nutter anyway.

*shrug*
alright, good enough. agreed.

EDIT: If I remember right, your pg. 546 was part of the Scenario Q&A --

http://thelifestream.net/lifestream-projects/translations/340/crisis-core-ultimania-scenario-qa/

thank you very much.