The dynamics of Deepground and SOLDIER

Shizuka

Pro Adventurer
Yeah and if they saw it like that they were special then it turns out the very man Sephiroth despised helped engineer what made him so special. I suppose it was the same for Angeal and Genesis they didn't seem to keen on Hollander.

Well Genesis even took LOVELESS literal he actually thought he, Angeal and Sephiroth were taking part in it. As for leaving ShinRa I think it's because he had found out the truth behind his birth and again Sephiroth was the one that ShinRa favoured more (much to Sephiroth's displeasure) and Genesis couldn't hack it.

I never understood why Hollander didn't use Sephiroth's blood to begin with,
 

T@ctic

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Orah, Iju
Genesis can hardly be classes as a friend when he was just up Sephiroth's ass because he was getting all the limelight and when Genesis got less attention than somebody else decided too have a major paddy and destroy a few lives on the way. He was the typical spoilt rich kid in Banora (too me) probably got all his own way and when he got into SOLDIER he didn't like not being the centre of attention.

As for Angeal if he way any kind of friend he would of told Sephiroth everything instead of running off with Genesis.

Finally Sephiroth again CC wasn't about him but Zack so even know we have little to understand of his upbringing is obvious emotional problems. But for whatever reason he doesn't seem to trust people easily

(long post here)
......>.>

and thus the "genesis sucks angeal wooles" concept comes up again.... who cares what YOU think, its what S/E says, and im not saying genesis wasnt a bit annoying at all (i just finished the game so i know), and im not saying angeal didnt die waaaay to soon and that it didnt kinda suck. i like angeal. a very nice character indeed.

but your point on "genesis never acted like sephiroth's friend"....well, you have nothing to back it up except "he was a big jerk" (to you) "and he was selfish and he was an idiot and he sucks and why does he get to live and he was spoiled" and blah blah blah. ok...so what if genesis was all of these things? it doesnt change the fact that genesis was sephiroths friend. it doesnt matter how you see it. S/E made it plain that genesis was his friend was much as angeal's. it was REPEATEDLY SAID in the game that "oh, angeal and genesis? yeah they hung out with sephiroth. they were like a trio or something." and "yea, they all hung out together, even when missions werent required for them to be together." in FACT, last i check, (i dont know, point out if im wrong) sephiroth refused to work on finding angeal AND genesis because: (and i quote right from the japanese version) "These two were Sephiroth's best friends." in the english version it said "they were his ONLY friends" like "he sucked at finding friends and was forced out with these two." sephiroth, once again, is no where near stupidity, and im DARN sure sephiroth would have spent his time with angeal and would have not spent any at all with genesis. (in fact it was the other way AROUND.)

oh and have you forgotten? did you forget that sephiroth was going to QUIT shin-ra-THE PLACE WHERE HE PLACED HIS ABSOLUTE LOYALTY AT- all for finding and saving genesis, some dude that "hardly classes as a friend?" genesis believing in the LOVELESS poem also proves he believed sephiroth as a friend. he was convinced the "mysterious three" from the poem was he,angeal,and sephiroth. and they were (oh lookie here) ALL FRIENDS. genesis said this too many times for a fool to forget. from the japanese version and i quote " The three FRIENDS are now gathered. One becomes the prisoner. One will take flight. The last remaining FRIEND becomes the hero." and when sephiroth replied with "That's quite the story" genesis asked "If this were a play, would I take the role of a hero (the hero is a FRIEND), or would you?" this is when sephiroth even goes to the point of appealing with genesis and says "You can be the hero if you want." in his way of saying "i dont care about my fame as a "hero". is this what you wanted all along? than take it. now come back." this is proven when genesis says "Your fame originally should have been mine" and sephiroth replies with "How pointless." and i guess a guy that "hardly classes a friend" deserves sephiroth (joined by angeal) READILY VOLUNTEERING to heal him. and i guess a guy that "hardly classes as a friend" made sephiroth look to the ground in hurt and dismal whenever someone spoke of angeal/genesis or angeal AND genesis. i mean, pfft. yeah. clear as day. totally. genesis clearly wasnt his friend.

sephiroth endangered his 1st class rank multiple times all for saving BOTH of his friends. when he told zach he would "Fail to kill" angeal, and trying as much as he could stretch his 1st class rank finding genesis without getting bumped. if he did get bumped, how could he get assigned to genesis or angeal? only 1st classes were assigned to finding them. so dont think "sephrioth may have liked genesis, but he still wanted his 1st class rank, so he didnt try as hard." remember, he was thinking of QUITING shin-ra in order to find genesis.

also, genesis said and i quote (when zach found him with the gift of the goddess"): "You've inherited Angeal's will and received a part of Sephiroth. The greatest reunion of FRIENDS have been made." its completely funny how your people just put feelings into angeal's and sephiroth's hearts and mold them on what YOU would think a friend they should have would be. genesis was both of angeal's and sephiroth's friend. yes, he acted jerky. im not denying his PERSONALITY. yes, he acted "childish". yes he acted as he was spoiled. and although i dont agree, he acted "stupid" in the training room. but angeal and sephiroth could just take it and forgive it because they saw good in him (i do too) and forgave him as fast as he "attacked" sephiroth. hence why they instantly volunteered when hollander asked for them to donate blood, and sephiroth was left hurt an a bit confused when he was rejected. it says in the wikia :"In SOLDIER, Sephiroth has two friends, Angeal Hewley and Genesis Rhapsodos. Though the three are rival SOLDIERs First Class, they see each other as close friends." thats all it was in the training room. rivalry. and this is all about genesis here: "Genesis defects from Shinra, making Sephiroth uneasy about his missions against him, and when ordered to go to Banora to track him down, Sephiroth refuses the mission." sephiroth also spent a couple hours spent more on Project G, the cells belonging to angeal and genesis. oh, you know the two that "hardly count as friends".

stop trying to make angeal and genesis look like bad friends from YOUR ideals. sephiroth liked them just fine. a slap in the face could look painful to us, but to someone else it could be nothing more than a pinch. like i said before, he never opened his heart to anything before they came, so obviously they must be what sephiroth's ideal is for a friend. it could suck according to you, and it could not, but we are talking about the friendship between all of them, and all of them like each other just fine. just because their friendship isnt said right out their mouths off the mountaintops like an extroverted version of this game probably would, doesnt make them any less of friends.

and as for "if angeal was any kind of friend he would have told sephiroth".....whut? so you HONESTLY think when genesis told angeal to come with him he didnt say something along the lines of "Oh and don't tell Sephiroth, ok? I want to tell him something myself." and since their relationship is much closer than shared with sephiroth, angeal would say "alright." or maybe he just didnt tell sephiroth because he was just following genesis so he could make him come back somehow, but in the end he realised what genesis was saying had truth in it. this theory can be backed up on the confused face of his when he is with genesis,when zach sees him after the wutai war. angeal was just as much as a friend as genesis was. do you people do anything besides PLAY games? dont you understand and analyze too?

one more thing. that logic on "CC wasn't about Sephiroth so we don't
know"...dont be like that. thats like saying "the lord of the rings was about frodo, not sam, so we cant even POSSIBLY understand what was going on with HIM." sephiroth just didnt appear in every other scene in the game. that didnt make him invisible and impossible to see through.
 
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Shizuka

Pro Adventurer
Woah you're a firey one aren't you?

Opinions are going to be formed especially in a place like this. Clearly you don't have to agree with mine just like I don't with you.

As for Genesis there are many people that like him and there are lots of people that don't I'm not the only one here.

Nor have I ever said or will ever say Sephirith didn't do crappy things before his madness and during his madness.

And again CC story was mainly Zack's of course there was many side stories of other characters. My point on this matter was that none of us know what Sephiroth's childhood was like because SE haven't told us what it was like. Only that he felt he was special even when he was a child.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Orah, please drop the condescension and discuss the matter more intellectually than this.

Now, while you do have valid points, what you bring up reinforces Sephiroth being a good friend to Angeal and Genesis. Less to the other way around. Though that isn't as big a deal in Angeal's case, seeing as he isn't constantly portrayed as a jerk, it is more necessary in Genesis's case if we are to believe that he had genuine affection for Sephiroth.

Orah said:
But angeal and sephiroth could just take it and forgive it because they saw good in him (i do too) ...

And you should probably elaborate on this. It's hard to take any defense of Genesis seriously, but claiming that he is a good person is a massive leap.
 

T@ctic

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Orah, Iju
Like when?


Hey, just because post-Nibelheim Sephiroth was evil doesn't mean his smiles weren't genuine, you got no reason to take away from him.

you know good and darn well what i mean by genuine smiles. i meant a not-so-insane-smile since you want to act ignorant.

That was what Zack took from it, though Sephiroth who was actually recalling said "i wonder". And we don't KNOW that Sephiroth had no friends before them. I take it as implied but you can hardly give it up as evidence.

you forget to mention that sephiroth laughed. that was important. if you understand sephiroth's personality (left brained introversion) you would know that sephiroth's soft laugh was him laughing at the irony of it all. his personality of humor is irony and sarcastic, hardly what we would call humor, but that is how he sees it. how sephiroth was talking about his friends and then he suddenly realizes the arent here. and you also forgot to point out sephiroth said it SARCASTICALLY, in his version of a joke. after the fight scene, sephiroth was once again smiling as he was reminiscing about angeal's "preachings" (as he said it). so he didnt really mean "I wonder..." how you thought it was. like i said, ff7 calls for some serious analyzing.

In DoC Sephiroth and Angeal were dead as far as Genesis knew. Nor are we given any reason in DoC to suspect his actions, as far as he made them in DoC, were for their sakes.

>.>

"Genesis declined this offer, and sealed himself in a flooded cavern beneath Midgar, awaiting the day he would be needed to protect the world in Sephiroth and Angeal's stead. "

(FF wikia)

No it does not. DoC takes place a good 10 years after the death of Angeal, lot's can happen to Genesis' state of mind in that time. Nothing in DoC proves anything concerning CC. At least what Genesis is concerned

dude literally its HALF THAT AMOUNT of years lol! 10 years lol..its like none of you know the Compilation thoroughly...

aaaaaand looks like you didnt play crisis core either, because there is a scene when two SOLDIERS take the unconscious genesis and then thats when DoC takes place.

and then you want to go and suggest genesis would give up on his best friends he ever had....WIN.
 

Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
Not that I've ever really understood why characters in fiction go fucking nuts when they found out that they had unique, experimental or even "monstrous" origins. Is it normal for people to feel that where they come from dictates who they are/are supposed to be to such an extent?
This is something I've noticed that varies a lot between Eastern/Weastern literature. I think it goes back to how Western literature is more focused on the individual while Eastern literature is more focused on the collective good.

In Western literature, the individual is "powerful enough" to rise above what society/work/family/other people think of them and are able to chart their own path in the world. Their background is important, but it doesn't dictate who they are as a person. Ultimately, the group of people an individual is with does not define them.

In Eastern literature, an individual gets their identity more from society/work/family/other people, not from who they are as an individual. Their background is very important because that's what a large part of their identity is based on. When individuals find out that the people who they get their identity from have lied to them... they then have to relie on who they are as individual without the support they once had.

Incidentally, Genesis' plot in CC reminds me of the Borne Series, but as if the Borne Series had been written with Treadstone as the good guys and Borne as the bad guy. Heck, the Bore Legecy's plot of "I've been messed with genetically and now I've got to track down a scientist who can fix it before I die" is almost exactly the same. The only significant difference I can see is that in CC leaving Shin-Ra is bad because Genesis owes them him loyalty while leaving Treadstone isn't because they essentially "betrayed" their purpose long ago.
 

T@ctic

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Orah, Iju
Woah you're a firey one aren't you?

i wouldnt say that. just very passionate. i have a huge love for justifying things, righting wrongs, analyzing, and untangling mixed up things.

Opinions are going to be formed especially in a place like this. Clearly you don't have to agree with mine just like I don't with you.

thats the problem. OPINIONS. nothing in my reply was opinion at all. i went straight to the FACTS of the matter. alright, i have no harm against you having opinions. "everybody has them" is the famous phrase. i am a VERY opinionated person. but when people try to put their opinions into facts, thats when they need to stop. if this thread is all about OPINIONS of the matter, then im very sorry for going off on a passion like that. in fact ill leave. i didnt know sorry. pweese forgive meh. :/

Nor have I ever said or will ever say Sephirith didn't do crappy things before his madness and during his madness.

i didnt either....when did i say that?

And again CC story was mainly Zack's of course there was many side stories of other characters. My point on this matter was that none of us know what Sephiroth's childhood was like because SE haven't told us what it was like. Only that he felt he was special even when he was a child.

sephiroth's CHILDHOOD? yeah we have no hope of what it would possibly be like (save for the fact he would be immensely superior to his peers). i completely agree. but i wasnt suggesting that. i was going by what we saw in the game. and what we saw what sephiroth, until his death, trying all he could to get back his friends. but if you are talking about him as a kid i back out, because we cant suggest anything to the table except he would most likely reach 1st class by 15 : P but i was talking about him in the timeline that CC allowed him to be inside of. :/

Orah, please drop the condescension and discuss the matter more intellectually than this.

Now, while you do have valid points, what you bring up reinforces Sephiroth being a good friend to Angeal and Genesis. Less to the other way around. Though that isn't as big a deal in Angeal's case, seeing as he isn't constantly portrayed as a jerk, it is more necessary in Genesis's case if we are to believe that he had genuine affection for Sephiroth.



And you should probably elaborate on this. It's hard to take any defense of Genesis seriously, but claiming that he is a good person is a massive leap.

1. i did not say and I REPEAT: genesis was NOT a jerk. NOT childish. NOT arrogant. he was those things. that would be denying his personality, and that is mayor idiocy.

2. genesis said angeal and sephiroth were his friends twice. and this is because he believed in the poem LOVELESS literally. and in the poem were three FRIENDS. genesis believed these people were he,angeal, ans sephiroth. therefore confirming he considered sephiroth his friend. it doesnt matter how he acted and how WE see it. i agree. i would never be friends with genesis with his jerky "kiss my butt" attitude, even if he had a good part in him. (which he does according to DoC) i RESPECT genesis, but he is not what i would consider an outstanding character. genesis may have treated sephiroth a bit "off" and to us that would seem like he didnt consider sephiroth his friend. but according to sephiroth's desperate actions to save BOTH angeal AND genesis, and from the mouth of genesis himself, it says otherwise. for some reason, angeal and sephiroth dealt through genesis' jerky ways and saw him as a friend. as a matter of fact, genesis treats sephiroth the way he treats angeal, and angeal says multiple times genesis was his childhood best friend. so its not too hard to see that sephiroth would says genesis is his friend, and genesis to say vice versa : D
 
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Shizuka

Pro Adventurer
You don't need to apologise I found it interesting on how you reacted to me. There's nothing wrong with passion.

No you didn't say that Sephiroth doing crappy things I think you were trying to say that I didn't realise he'd done crappy things during CC like giving missions to Zack he didn't want to do.

As for Sephiroth's childhood it had been spoken about on this thread and I bet many others as why Sephiroth is emotionally very guarded and why he stays with ShinRa before his madness.

As for Genesis again my opinion his actions don't speak friendship. CC just like many things are up for interuptation. And he did take LOVELESS literal and that's partly why I see him as a bad friend he was contempt not being the centre if attention. A true friend would be happy of their friends success. Not try and demean everything you've done. I mean take the reactor scene for instance he literally destroys Sephiroth's world in the matter of seconds, then expects Sephiroth's help and when Sephirith tells him to rot. Genesis then calls him a monster because he refuses to help him. I mean excuse my French but WTF? Genesis is a self centred spoilt brat and yes that's my opinion and I'm afraid I can't see otherwise no sympathise with him.
 

jazzflower92

Pro Adventurer
AKA
The Girl With A Strong Opinion
The fact that Sephiroth himself says he wonders if they were actually friends is good enough for me.

And for some freaking inane reason he is redeamed even though hasn't earned it or deserve it.Making in my opinion Genesis the worst character in the Compilation because he is a karma houdini that escapes punishment and is rewarded for his bad behavior.
 

Shizuka

Pro Adventurer
And for some freaking inane reason he is redeamed even though hasn't earned it or deserve it.Making in my opinion Genesis the worst character in the Compilation because he is a karma houdini that escapes punishment and is rewarded for his bad behavior.


I never understood the whole "forgiveness thing." I hope it was Jenova/Sephiroth taking another form to screw with him later. I know that's far fetched but meh. I really can't stand he got forgiven.
 

jazzflower92

Pro Adventurer
AKA
The Girl With A Strong Opinion
I never understood the whole "forgiveness thing." I hope it was Jenova/Sephiroth taking another form to screw with him later. I know that's far fetched but meh. I really can't stand he got forgiven.

That would actually be a nice saving throw if they revealed that it was just them taking another form to mess with him.;)
 

Shizuka

Pro Adventurer
Exactly :) ok I know I've been Genesis bashing but not without reason. I'm not bashing the writers either I do think CC took a interesting direction. The whole forgiveness thing I really don't understand maybe someone could enlighten me?

Also I know we've touched upon it but the scene in the reactor and Genesis asking for Sephiroth's help, did he actually think he'd help him after all he said to him?
 

jazzflower92

Pro Adventurer
AKA
The Girl With A Strong Opinion
I knew if I remember one the writers said they wanted to expand Genesis's role because of the fact that Gackt was playing him since they thought it would be a waste to have a small role for a celebrity voiced character.
 

Shizuka

Pro Adventurer
Oh no...I like Gackt but would of liked him even more if he hadn't been in FF. I can't believe SE have resorted to this by getting fan girls interested.

And Genesis isn't going to be a "bad guy" is he because now he views himself as the protector of the planet. Which is ironic where was he when his old friend was destroying it?

I also don't want Sephiroth back I love him but there's so much of SE can keep saying he's "above everything" then seeing Cloud pummel his ass too the ground everytime.
 

S and G

FFVII books and stuff
AKA
MJ Gallagher
dude literally its HALF THAT AMOUNT of years lol! 10 years lol..its like none of you know the Compilation thoroughly...

aaaaaand looks like you didnt play crisis core either, because there is a scene when two SOLDIERS take the unconscious genesis and then thats when DoC takes place.

and then you want to go and suggest genesis would give up on his best friends he ever had....WIN.

I'm afraid I'm going to have to step in here. It is, in fact, you who is wrong on the above matter, Orah.

Firstly, according the the official timeline, Angeal's death takes place Autumn [ ν ] – εуλ 0001. Dirge of Cerberus (the single player game) commences at an undisclosed time in [ ν ] – εуλ 0010. However, upon further analysis of the official ages of the characters during this game, it is expected that it takes place towards the end of the year. You can find this info here. Give or take a few months, the difference is approximately 9 years.

Your claim that DoC begins when Genesis is taken by Nero and Weiss at the end of CC is also incorrect, regardless of whether you are referring to the single player game or the online game. The immediate story of the single player game begins 2 weeks prior to the events at Kalm. The online game takes place over an undisclosed period but, for all intents and purposes, its storyline must end after Meteorfall.

thats the problem. OPINIONS. nothing in my reply was opinion at all. i went straight to the FACTS of the matter. alright, i have no harm against you having opinions. "everybody has them" is the famous phrase. i am a VERY opinionated person. but when people try to put their opinions into facts, thats when they need to stop. if this thread is all about OPINIONS of the matter, then im very sorry for going off on a passion like that. in fact ill leave. i didnt know sorry. pweese forgive meh. :/.

In your own words, the information you have given is fact and not opinion. Unfortunately, as I have just pointed out, your facts are wrong. This, by definition, then becomes opinion. Now please read your statement again and see if it sounds condescending.

lol..its like none of you know the Compilation thoroughly...

I would also be very careful about your accusations that we at TLS.net do not know the Compilation thoroughly enough. Please be mindful that many of us here have played, researched, analysed and debated these games for several years and members of these forums have contributed heavily to the translations, knowledge and understanding that has been made available to the English-speaking fans around the world. It is not only possible but highly probable that any knowledge you have on the extended Compilation is as a direct result of our work. I would recommend that you consider this before discussing any further matters and show a bit more courtesy to your fellow members.
 

T@ctic

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Orah, Iju
You don't need to apologise I found it interesting on how you reacted to me. There's nothing wrong with passion.

No you didn't say that Sephiroth doing crappy things I think you were trying to say that I didn't realise he'd done crappy things during CC like giving missions to Zack he didn't want to do.

As for Sephiroth's childhood it had been spoken about on this thread and I bet many others as why Sephiroth is emotionally very guarded and why he stays with ShinRa before his madness.

As for Genesis again my opinion his actions don't speak friendship. CC just like many things are up for interuptation. And he did take LOVELESS literal and that's partly why I see him as a bad friend he was contempt not being the centre if attention. A true friend would be happy of their friends success. Not try and demean everything you've done. I mean take the reactor scene for instance he literally destroys Sephiroth's world in the matter of seconds, then expects Sephiroth's help and when Sephirith tells him to rot. Genesis then calls him a monster because he refuses to help him. I mean excuse my French but WTF? Genesis is a self centred spoilt brat and yes that's my opinion and I'm afraid I can't see otherwise no sympathise with him.


alright then. i thought you were speaking on the matter of fact. im totally not bashing you for your opinion, but i dont see what you mean. all you do is point on genesis' personality. also you say sephiroth did "crappy things" when he only did one THING. he only gave zach ONE mission he didnt want to do. and he APOLOGIZED. lol? anyway alright then. according to you genesis didnt act friendly to your standards, but just remember the fact of the matter that angeal and sephiroth thought him just fine. : D



The fact that Sephiroth himself says he wonders if they were actually friends is good enough for me.

sephiroth laughed at the fact of irony. he thought it was a good joke from the it. if you understood his personality (left brained introversion) you would know that sephiroth wasnt being serious at all. in fact, the place where he said that was the place where he was attempting to find angeal instead of kill him. he obviously didnt mean it seriously. :/

Oh no...I like Gackt but would of liked him even more if he hadn't been in FF. I can't believe SE have resorted to this by getting fan girls interested.

so it IS true....you people hate on genesis just because his face looked like gackt's..... ._O there is nothing relating to gackt with genesis accept the fact that he helped on the character design greatly, looked like him, and voice acted him. why do you people hate on him just because gackt is in it? i mean, people who dont even know about gackt wouldnt even be bothered by it. (btw his b-day was a week ago : P)

I also don't want Sephiroth back I love him but there's so much of SE can keep saying he's "above everything" then seeing Cloud pummel his ass too the ground everytime.

thats partly why i like him. when cloud beats him you know that sephiroth wasnt even trying because hes the strongest in the vii universe. thats what makes you wonder about what true power he has we'll never see. (BUT THAT IS MY OPINION NOT FACT! : D)

I'm afraid I'm going to have to step in here. It is, in fact, you who is wrong on the above matter, Orah.

Firstly, according the the official timeline, Angeal's death takes place Autumn [ ν ] – εуλ 0001. Dirge of Cerberus (the single player game) commences at an undisclosed time in [ ν ] – εуλ 0010. However, upon further analysis of the official ages of the characters during this game, it is expected that it takes place towards the end of the year. You can find this info here. Give or take a few months, the difference is approximately 9 years.

"Dirge of Cerberus -Final Fantasy VII- is part of the Compilation of Final Fantasy VII and is set three years after Final Fantasy VII and one year after Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children. " 5 years altogether. what do you mean? i dont get it :T

Your claim that DoC begins when Genesis is taken by Nero and Weiss at the end of CC is also incorrect, regardless of whether you are referring to the single player game or the online game.


no i didnt. i mean thats when DoC starts in FOR GENESIS' timeline. i didnt mean the entire game lol. sorry if i said it wrong...my bad.

In your own words, the information you have given is fact and not opinion. Unfortunately, as I have just pointed out, your facts are wrong. This, by definition, then becomes opinion. Now please read your statement again and see if it sounds condescending.

you pointed 2 things i said, ok then. but i talking about what you pointed out when i said that. when i was talking about the angeal's and the DoC thing, it was with Minato Arisato, not Shizuka, and Arisato and i were talking about an entirely different subject. when i said my points "are facts, not opinions" i was talking about the 7 points i made with Shizuke (2nd comment on the 6th page). also if something is proven wrong if someone says it doesnt automatically make it opinion. it could be an incorrection. if i was wrong, it is not my opinion because why would i claim something false be my opinion? i was just wrong.

I would also be very careful about your accusations that we at TLS.net do not know the Compilation thoroughly enough. Please be mindful that many of us here have played, researched, analysed and debated these games for several years and members of these forums have contributed heavily to the translations, knowledge and understanding that has been made available to the English-speaking fans around the world. It is not only possible but highly probable that any knowledge you have on the extended Compilation is as a direct result of our work. I would recommend that you consider this before discussing any further matters and show a bit more courtesy to your fellow members.

sure. : )
 
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The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Who is the "you people" here? I don't give a shit that Genesis has Gackt's face and voice. It's not like it was the first time Nomura drew from Japanese pop culture. Also not like Gackt has been the main issue with the character brought up around here.

Hell, the guy you were responding to said he likes Gackt in the same message you replied to. Shizuka's issue was more with the "why" of putting a character based on Gackt in, not the fact of it.

sephiroth laughed at the fact of irony. he thought it was a good joke from the it. if you understood his personality (left brained introversion) you would know that sephiroth wasnt being serious at all. in fact, the place where he said that was the place where he was attempting to find angeal instead of kill him. he obviously didnt mean it seriously. :/

I'm not talking about Angeal; I'm talking about Genesis. The loon who tried to kill him in that flashback he had right after saying "I wonder."
 

Shizuka

Pro Adventurer
Yeah again my opinion is that Genesis wasn't a good friend once again that's my opinion but I can give examples of someone not acting with their best intentions for their friends well being. For example the Nibilhiem reactor scene.

You keep saying that Sephiroth use his left side of the brain that's your opinion at no point have SE said this as fact. The only thing they have said about anything to do with using the left side is the fact that he's left handed.

And I don't like Genesis because Gackt's image was taken and again why was it necessary to use Gackt's image? Just to bring more fans? I'm a fan of Gackt but in my opinion his character was poorly written and I would really like to hear your opinion on what point in CC made Genesis a good friend to Sephiroth.
 

T@ctic

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Orah, Iju
Who is the "you people" here? I don't give a shit that Genesis has Gackt's face and voice. It's not like it was the first time Nomura drew from Japanese pop culture. Also not like Gackt has been the main issue with the character brought up around here.

Hell, the guy you were responding to said he likes Gackt in the same message you replied to. Shizuka's issue was more with the "why" of putting a character based on Gackt in, not the fact of it.



I'm not talking about Angeal; I'm talking about Genesis. The loon who tried to kill him in that flashback he had right after saying "I wonder."

"you people" as in the people that say they dont like genesis because he looked like gackt. if you arent those people, dont get offended. :?

yes, my reason to ask her is that genesis acts NOTHING like gackt in real life. he just looks like him and sounds like him. "why" the character was based off of him because Hideki Imaizumi was interested in gackt's charcater in the first place. he is nothing like gackt so why is everyone riled up about it? it would be different if gackt based genesis 100% of of him. that would be cliche and lame and THEN i would understand why everyone didnt like genesis because of gackt. (because i would be one of them)

I'm not talking about Angeal; I'm talking about Genesis. The loon who tried to kill him in that flashback he had right after saying "I wonder."

i said that sephiroth said it in irony of the fact that he was talking about his friends and they werent even there. genesis wasnt trying to kill him! thats entirely silly to suggest. the wikia says that they were rivals, but best friends. that makes a clear amount of sense because it was genesis was rivaling sephiroth in the room. the fight got out of hand, but they were getting too serious. (you can clearly see because the room was demolished) but they werent fight to KILL each other.

"In SOLDIER, Sephiroth has two friends, Angeal Hewley and Genesis Rhapsodos. Though the three are rival SOLDIERs First Class, they see each other as close friends.."

and like i said, sephiroth was thinking of QUITTING SHIN-RA for genesis. that proves that sephiroth's "I wonder..." wasnt serious if he was laying his ENTIRE LIFE HE KNEW on the line.
 
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Shizuka

Pro Adventurer
"you people" as in the people that say they dont like genesis because he looked like gackt. if you arent those people, dont get offended. :?

yes, my reason to ask her is that genesis acts NOTHING like gackt in real life. he just looks like him and sounds like him. "why" the character was based off of him because Hideki Imaizumi was interested in gackt's charcater in the first place. he is nothing like gackt so why is everyone riled up about it? it would be different if gackt based genesis 100% of of him. the would cliche and lame and THEN i would understand why everyone didnt like genesis because of gackt. (because i would be one of them)



i said that sephiroth said it in irony of the fact that he was talking about his friends and they weren even there. genesis wasnt trying to kill him! thats entirely silly to suggest. the wikia says that they were rivals, but best friends. that makes a clear amount of sense because it was genesis was rivaling sephiroth in the room. the fight got out of hand, but they were getting too serious. (you can clearly see because the room was demoished) but they werent fight to KILL each other.

"n SOLDIER, Sephiroth has two friends, Angeal Hewley and Genesis Rhapsodos. Though the three are rival SOLDIERs First Class, they see each other as close friends.."

and like i said, sephiroth was thinking of QUITTING SHIN-RA for genesis. that proves that sephiroth's "I wonder..." wasnt serious if he was laying his ENTIRE LIFE HE KNEW on the line.

And WIKI never puts out wrong information does it?

And again you have stated why Sephiroth was a good friend not Genesis. Sephiroth quitting doesn't make Genesis a good friend that makes him a good friend. Friendships can be one sided and when it comes to Genesis and Sephiroth's friendship this was.
 
I had never so much as heard of Gackt the first time I played Crisis Core. And in fact I hadn't even played FFVII when I played Crisis Core. And I still didn't like Genesis, because he is an irritating, badly-drawn character, and his sole purpose is to showcase the extreme niceness of Zack's character. Anyone else would have left Genesis to rot.

I really don't see how anyone can say Sephiroth was laughing "ironically" when he questioned his friendship with Angeal and Genesis, or rather theirs for him. True friends help each other and share their troubles with each other, but from the moment Genesis was wounded in the "play-fight" with Sephiroth, Sephiroth was excluded. He was always the third wheel. I read that scene as Sephiroth truly questioning just how deep his friendship with the other two Firsts was. You can even see it as yet another pillar of his identity which was taken away from him: "I thought these people were my friends, but now I wonder... were we ever truly friends?"
 

Unlucky

WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN
so it IS true....you people hate on genesis just because his face looked like gackt's..... ._O

How are 'people' here not going to assume that you were talking about them after you've said this? And it's not being 'offended', but rather correcting such an assumption. A lot of members here who dislike Genesis have given their reasons over and over again in numerous threads, and none of those reasons were 'because he looks like Gackt'.

there is nothing relating to gackt with genesis accept the fact that he helped on the character design greatly, looked like him, and voice acted him. why do you people hate on him just because gackt is in it? i mean, people who dont even know about gackt wouldnt even be bothered by it. (btw his b-day was a week ago : P)

No. Both Hideki Imaizumi (producer of CC) AND Gackt worked on Genesis' overall character:

FF Wiki said:
Imaizumi and Gackt came up with Genesis's design, describing everything from his attitude to his clothes. "I went to eat with him one time and described the Final Fantasy VII universe in rich detail. And it turned into this process of collaboration, creating the character together. Then we went to the studio and recorded the Japanese voice with all that in mind. So he really was a creative partner in all of this. And we really wanted the connection between Dirge of Cerberus and Crisis Core."

Still the point stands that a lot of people who dislike Genesis base their opinions of him on being a horrible character, not on dislike of Gackt.
 

Roger

He/him
AKA
Minato
you know good and darn well what i mean by genuine smiles. i meant a not-so-insane-smile since you want to act ignorant.

Okay I'll be serious then. When Zack asks about Sephiroth's parents and Sephiroth finds himself opening up, he laughs, when Zack says Materia is a mysterious power Sephiroth again laughs because of how Hojo would have thrown a fit about such a statement. There was never anything wrong with Sephiroth sense of humour. Until Angeal and Genesis were created.

you forget to mention that sephiroth laughed. that was important. if you understand sephiroth's personality (left brained introversion) you would know that sephiroth's soft laugh was him laughing at the irony of it all. his personality of humor is irony and sarcastic, hardly what we would call humor, but that is how he sees it. how sephiroth was talking about his friends and then he suddenly realizes the arent here. and you also forgot to point out sephiroth said it SARCASTICALLY, in his version of a joke. after the fight scene, sephiroth was once again smiling as he was reminiscing about angeal's "preachings" (as he said it). so he didnt really mean "I wonder..." how you thought it was. like i said, ff7 calls for some serious analyzing.
irony and sarcasm as a sense of humour isn't as alien a concept to the workld as you might think. That doesn't mean that Genesis crazed attempt at his life, as well as their defection didn't give Sephiroth doubts about the sincerity of their friendship.

>.>

"Genesis declined this offer, and sealed himself in a flooded cavern beneath Midgar, awaiting the day he would be needed to protect the world in Sephiroth and Angeal's stead. "

(FF wikia)
wikia in their own right is not a canon source, that's why they cite various source at the bottom of their page, that quote doesn't have one.

dude literally its HALF THAT AMOUNT of years lol! 10 years lol..its like none of you know the Compilation thoroughly...
The start of Crisis Core take place 7 years before FFVII, Dirge of Cerberus takes place 3 years after FFVII.

aaaaaand looks like you didnt play crisis core either, because there is a scene when two SOLDIERS take the unconscious genesis and then thats when DoC takes place.
I watched that scene and guess what, that was years before Dirge of Cerberus and years after Angeal died. Vincent was still in the goddamn Shinra Mansion back then.

and then you want to go and suggest genesis would give up on his best friends he ever had....WIN.
I didn't say give up. Giving up isn't really in the cards, he LOST his best friends plain and simple. They're dead.

sephiroth's CHILDHOOD? yeah we have no hope of what it would possibly be like (save for the fact he would be immensely superior to his peers). i completely agree. but i wasnt suggesting that.

Really

and when they met sephiroth (WHO HAD NO FRIENDS BEFORE THEN and DID NOT care) they were all "very close" as zach put it.
Cause this statement tells you have taken a great deal about Sephiroth's childhood as fact.

1. i did not say and I REPEAT: genesis was NOT a jerk. NOT childish. NOT arrogant. he was those things. that would be denying his personality, and that is mayor idiocy.
The point is that this all we see of him. It can be attributed to bad writing but the scene where Genesis is trying to kill Sephiroth and a few adversarial confrontation after his and Angeal's defection is all we get to portray their friendship.

They probably had better days before Genesis went crazy but for the time being those days only exist in Nojima's head and are up to interpretation.

2. genesis said angeal and sephiroth were his friends twice. and this is because he believed in the poem LOVELESS literally. and in the poem were three FRIENDS. genesis believed these people were he,angeal, ans sephiroth. therefore confirming he considered sephiroth his friend. it doesnt matter how he acted and how WE see it. i agree. i would never be friends with genesis with his jerky "kiss my butt" attitude, even if he had a good part in him. (which he does according to DoC) i RESPECT genesis, but he is not what i would consider an outstanding character. genesis may have treated sephiroth a bit "off" and to us that would seem like he didnt consider sephiroth his friend. but according to sephiroth's desperate actions to save BOTH angeal AND genesis, and from the mouth of genesis himself, it says otherwise. for some reason, angeal and sephiroth dealt through genesis' jerky ways and saw him as a friend. as a matter of fact, genesis treats sephiroth the way he treats angeal, and angeal says multiple times genesis was his childhood best friend. so its not too hard to see that sephiroth would says genesis is his friend, and genesis to say vice versa : D
Yeah, they are said to be friends. Or rather, they call each other friends in absence, when they have to deal with each other in reality things are little more complicated.

But anyway I'd disagree that Sephiroth does EVERYTHING in his power to get his friends back. He never says "please come back" or "I'll get you the help you need" or anything. He doesn't challenge the idea that Hollander is the only one that can stop Genesis' degradation but nevertheless works to apprehend him for the Shinra organisation.

Then there is the quote before the Nibelheim mission. First of all. "depending on what happens, I might abandon Shinra" is not equivalent to "I'll leave Shinra to save Genesis." He MIGHT abandon Shinra but we already know he has a reluctance to fight Genesis while at the same time thinking his goals are petty. But as far as i know, that's not even what the japanese version says.

Sephiroth: Our orders are to investigate the mako reactor. Even old friends didn't even tell me anything. Depending on when, even I might be discarded by Shinra. But until then I'm still an obedient SOLDIER of Shinra.
Which makes a lot more sense to me. He's not gonna leave SOLDIER, but he knows of the possibility that Shinra might turn against him.

alright then. i thought you were speaking on the matter of fact. im totally not bashing you for your opinion, but i dont see what you mean. all you do is point on genesis' personality. also you say sephiroth did "crappy things" when he only did one THING. he only gave zach ONE mission he didnt want to do. and he APOLOGIZED. lol? anyway alright then. according to you genesis didnt act friendly to your standards, but just remember the fact of the matter that angeal and sephiroth thought him just fine. : D

Angeal deals with the news of Genesis supposed death with 'it should've been me who killed him."

no i didnt. i mean thats when DoC starts in FOR GENESIS' timeline. i didnt mean the entire game lol. sorry if i said it wrong...my bad.
The ONLY scene Genesis has in DoC is AFTER Omega Weiss is defeated by Vincent. If you meant his arrival in Deepground then okay, but that's not the same thing as DoC nor does it happen in that game.

And anyway that doesn't really change what my point was. When Genesis arrives in Deepground his friends have been dead for 5 years. He hasn't had to deal with his jealously of Sephiroth's fame or either of his friends reaction to his genocidal reaction to his own artificial creation and subsequent mortality in all that time. How he feels about them LOOONG after they are gone doesn't prove to me how genuine a friend he was to them in life.
 
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T@ctic

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Orah, Iju
And WIKI never puts out wrong information does it?

And again you have stated why Sephiroth was a good friend not Genesis. Sephiroth quitting doesn't make Genesis a good friend that makes him a good friend. Friendships can be one sided and when it comes to Genesis and Sephiroth's friendship this was.

did i say wikia's never are wrong? its easy to see that they are friends. they have analyzed just as much as you have, maybe even longer (i dunno). if the wikia ever says somethign wrong, prove it. because im pretty sure if it said "genesis didnt really act friendly to sephiroth" you be all "see??!?!?!? TOLD ya!" wikia's like this are hardly wrong anyway, and you are free to prove it wrong if you want.
apparently you need to re-read my 7 point proof on page 6 that ALL OF THEM thought of each other as friends, not just sephiroth. i point all of them, and i can even add more of that point if you want. that would be pure stupidity for me just to once side bias him like that. im afraid you have me wrong. shall i re-quote it?
 
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