The Genesis Sequel

[Makoeyes987]

You're saying its not an opinion, ergo it's a fact. And if its a fact, then there must be tangible, objective evidence to demonstrate said position.

So put it up. What's the data that shows that Square needs to use Sephiroth in the next Compilation title to be financially successful? Whats the factual data?

If you have none...then its an opinion.

And what do you know of the target audience? What facts do you know to say that? Have you taken some survey that shows most fans want Sephiroth to return again to be beaten by Cloud?

If so again, please post your facts. I'll be glad to concede once you show me this overwhelming opinion of other FFVII fans. You seem to know so much about them and what they think. How do you know half of them are Sephiroth fanboys? Let alone half of them are boys?

 

[strode78]

"And I'm *not* postulating a Zack/Genesis conflict. I'm pointing out that Genesis's main conflict wasn't with Sephiroth. It was with Zack. You're pushing Genesis and Sephiroth together when really, it was Zack that he had the most conflict and antagonism towards."

you're right, but i'm saying that he had and still has the most clear ideological and ethical conflict with sephiroth. he is sephiroths shadow. therefore in the next game, for a literary perspective, sephiroth is the only compelling (for genesis) character who has any interest in destroying the planet

 

[Makoeyes987]

Actually, Genesis had more of a conflict and ideological conflict with Zack, seeing as how they crossed paths and fought the most in CC. Genesis didn't interact with Sephiroth nearly as much as he did Zack.

And again, way to go at ignoring that they could MAKE A NEW THREAT to the planet.

 

[strode78]

"You're saying its not an opinion, ergo it's a fact. And if its a fact, then there must be tangible, objective evidence to demonstrate said position."

false polarization. it is not an opinion OR fact it's an argument. just 'cause i don't have square's balance sheet in front of me doesn't mean that its an opinion. its an argument based on a prospective target audience


let's put it this way...

do you agree that if square publishes FF VII-2 it will have wider appeal than just compilation fans?

"As of September 30, 2008, Square Enix announced that Crisis Core had sold 1,920,000 units worldwide, with 820,000 of those sales coming from Japan"

"If you liked Final Fantasy VII from Square, you're not alone. The title has reportedly sold over 5 million copies worldwide. The title received a boost to sales recently when it was released in Europe"

conclusion FF VII fanbase 2.5x > Compilation fanbase

and before you say it it doesn't matter that FF VII has had a longer shelf life, more people have played it and that will undoubtedly remain true by the time FF VII-2 comes out.


therefore it is square's financial best interests to try and appeal to the nostalgic gamers as opposed to compilation fans.

Appealing to nostalgia = Sephiroth

 

[strode78]

zack and genesis' conflict is resolved. genesis and sephiroth's is not.

As for a new threat? i doubt it. Sephiroth is certainly tired, but Genesis, sephiroth, hojo/weiss all within 10 years of each other makes sense because they are all the results of the same experiments (hojo being the experimenter tying in DOC)? a new threat would at the very least have to stem from existing conflicts as this has historically been the case. AND no bad guy arises without previously occuring in another game (save the 1st game obviously).

 

[Makoeyes987]

Yeah, an argument based on your opinion. You trying to chalk up your opinion as some indisputable fact is absurd and erroneous. Unless you *do* have sales figures directly showing causality between Sephiroth and sales, and their need for his appearance, you can't say "It's fact that more Sephiroth is more sales and they need him."

Yeah, it's an argument. Of opinion. You can't say it's a fact.

And the fact that FFVII HAS been out for years longer than CC would definitely play a part. Ignoring that is illogical. You can't compare the two.

And again, your limited thinking in them having to always come from previous material is just...limiting. They could easily break the mold. Just because you doubt it doesn't make it any less possible.

 

[strode78]

[quote author=Makoeyes987 link=topic=488.msg17277#msg17277 date=1234425760]
Yeah, an argument based on your opinion. You trying to chalk up your opinion as some indisputable fact is absurd and erroneous. Unless you *do* have sales figures directly showing causality between Sephiroth and sales, and their need for his appearance, you can't say "It's fact that more Sephiroth is more sales and they need him."

Yeah, it's an argument. Of opinion. You can't say it's a fact.

And the fact that FFVII HAS been out for years longer than CC would definitely play a part. Ignoring that is illogical. You can't compare the two.

And again, your limited thinking in them having to always come from previous material is just...limiting. They could easily break the mold. Just because you doubt it doesn't make it any less possible.
[/quote]

no, it's an argument based on my observation. anything that is not fact is not automatically an opinion.

yes, the fact that cc has been out for less time certainly influences the numbers, but it's not meaningful to the FACT that it simply couldn't have those kinds of sales by the time ff vii-2 comes out. meaning there still is a larger audience to tap than compilation fans.

though i can not prove a causality between sephiroth and sales, i sure as shit can prove a correlation. FF VII, AC, and CC sale > DOC sales. The games with sephiroth have greater sales. Granted those also are better installments, however it IS still correlation (yes i understand this is not proof).

The Major installments of the Compilation of FF VII (BC, CC, FF VII, AC, DOC, and presumably FF VII-2) are clearly one story, the story of Hojo/Hollander/Shinra's madness being a catalyst for Jenova's reunion and the outcomes thereof. Even DOC had the deepground soldiers and tsviets who are outcomes of the jenova experiments. The loose threads in cloud's story arc demanded AC. the loose threads in vincent's demanded DOC.

Now we have genesis. The only loose thread in his character arc is sephiroth. they are each other's antithesis. Genesis created sephiroth-the-madman by revealing the jenova experiments to him (which is the BIG reveal of CC). All of this was no accident. Think back to your literature classes. Genesis' character arc cannot be fully resolved until he faces his shadow and slays him. It's how story telling works.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Your observation is biased and based on your own personal opinion. Either prove your position as fact, since you claim it to be so, or admit it's an opinion. It can't be both or neither. Your observation is based on your opinion. A personal observation without any real concrete fact isn't fact or any different than an opinion. You don't know every FFVII fan.

And you can't see the future either. So stop talking about what the possible sales figures of "FFVII-2" would be. You're pulling that straight out of your butt.

And DC lower sales could have more to do with its shitty gameplay as a shooter as numerous gaming critics have stated. Like X-play, Gamepro, IGN, etc. They didn't say "This game needs more Sephiroth," they said "this game needs better control mechanics and shooting gameplay."

So no, attributing DC's weaker sales to Sephiroth is not even a strong correlation. Not in regards to what its criticisms were.

And what loose thread is there with Sephiroth? There is no lose thread. There is no unresolved aspect to Genesis regarding Sephiroth, what are you talking about?

Sephiroth is not Genesis's shadow that needs to be slain by him. They've never called him as such or even linked them that closely. Again, another subjective tangent to connect Sephiroth. That's not said by any of the creators or events in Crisis COre.

 

[Masamune]

[quote author=Dacon link=topic=488.msg17267#msg17267 date=1234423298]
Your argument is invalid thanks to it simply being opinion. You've nothing to support your argument other than your opinion.

Sephiroth has no logical avenue for resurrection, there's no reason to assume SE is going to bring him back.

He's dead.
[/quote]

Not really, no.

Sephiroth is a cash-cow, and although a few of us might grumble about another instalment of him, the majority can't get enough of the guy. Let's face it, if SE really wanted to keep Sephiroth on a tight-leash, why do they insist on shoving him everywhere?? Because he's popular and it boosts sales.

I think it's incredibly naive to believe SE wouldn't present Sephiroth in a final sequel to FFVII.

 

[wayfarer]

Sephiroth is a cash-cow, and although a few of us might grumble about another instalment of him, the majority can't get enough of the guy. Let's face it, if SE really wanted to keep Sephiroth on a tight-leash, why do they insist on shoving him everywhere?? Because he's popular and it boosts sales.

I think it's incredibly naive to believe SE wouldn't present Sephiroth in a final sequel to FFVII.

I agree. Sephiroth is one of SE's most popular charcters, not to mention the central antagonist of the FFVII universe. Even if he didn't have a "logical avenue for resurection," who's to say that square can't just as easily make one up? They managed to keep Hojo alive for DoC, and he was pretty much dead at the end of FFVII. Although, he may not be the main antagonist in the next game an incarnation of him will almost certainly be present.

Also: adding to strode's argument. Genesis isn't aware of anything that happened to Sephiroth after he came back out of the Lifestream in FFVII, and tried to crash a Meteor into the planet. I'd be interested to see if Genesis would react positively or negatively to this information. Maybe Genesis' agenda could conflict with that of Sephiroth if he were to make an appearance.

 

[ForceStealer]

They're only going to piss people off. Even if half of the FF7 fanboys are Sephiroth fans, I would argue that more than half at least know about Advent Children and that Sephiroth came back in it.

An FF7 sequel would get so much flak if it bought Sephiroth back. FF7-2 might close out the Compilation, but what if a remake did? (I'm not trying to start that debate, just saying) would that not satisfy the brainless nostalgia whores you are referring to?

Also, if Sephiroth did come back, AND its all about nostalgia, wouldn't Cloud have to be the one to kill him? Why would any of these nostalgia freaks care about Genesis fighting him? Are we controlling Genesis in this game you apparently know so much about?

And Masamune, your stance is based more on your limitless cynicism than anything else. No one ever suggested SE wants Sephiroth on a tight-leash, but putting him in unrelated titles has no bearing on his life/death in the FF7 realm. The only reason he came back in AC was because AC was supposed to grant additional closure to Cloud, and Sephiroth was an integral part of that. With that resolution, there's no reason to bring him back.

And yes, I know the way the argument goes now: "Cloud had closure in FF7 and they brought him back anyway." AC was pure and unadulterated fanservice, it was before the Compilation. Now they're actually constructing a narrative, they had enough forethought that AC would fit into it.

While, yes, anything is possible, I find it very very hard to believe that they would bring Sephiroth back a third time.

 

[Masamune]

I don't really see how anyone can sensibly say the fans would be outraged if Sephiroth came back. There would be a few of us that would bitch about it, but the fanbase can't get enough fanservice - especially for an icon like Sephiroth.

[quote author=ForceStealer link=topic=488.msg17320#msg17320 date=1234451477]And Masamune, your stance is based more on your limitless cynicism than anything else. No one ever suggested SE wants Sephiroth on a tight-leash, but putting him in unrelated titles has no bearing on his life/death in the FF7 realm. The only reason he came back in AC was because AC was supposed to grant additional closure to Cloud, and Sephiroth was an integral part of that. With that resolution, there's no reason to bring him back.[/quote]

It's not cynicism, it's called being realistic. SE need to make money. Sephiroth is one of their most profitable characters. It stands to reason they would exploit this for the ultimate FFVII send-off. They do it for almost anything else they can link to FFVII.

[quote author=ForceStealer link=topic=488.msg17320#msg17320 date=1234451477]Now they're actually constructing a narrative, they had enough forethought that AC would fit into it.[/quote]

When was this?


[quote author=ForceStealer link=topic=488.msg17320#msg17320 date=1234451477]While, yes, anything is possible, I find it very very hard to believe that they would bring Sephiroth back a third time.[/quote]

I don't BELIEVE they will, but I do think it's a good possibility, and it wouldn't surprise me one iota.

 

[strode78]

[quote author=Makoeyes987 link=topic=488.msg17283#msg17283 date=1234430202]
Your observation is biased and based on your own personal opinion. Either prove your position as fact, since you claim it to be so, or admit it's an opinion. It can't be both or neither. Your observation is based on your opinion. A personal observation without any real concrete fact isn't fact or any different than an opinion. You don't know every FFVII fan.

And you can't see the future either. So stop talking about what the possible sales figures of "FFVII-2" would be. You're pulling that straight out of your butt.

And DC lower sales could have more to do with its shitty gameplay as a shooter as numerous gaming critics have stated. Like X-play, Gamepro, IGN, etc. They didn't say "This game needs more Sephiroth," they said "this game needs better control mechanics and shooting gameplay."

So no, attributing DC's weaker sales to Sephiroth is not even a strong correlation. Not in regards to what its criticisms were.

And what loose thread is there with Sephiroth? There is no lose thread. There is no unresolved aspect to Genesis regarding Sephiroth, what are you talking about?

Sephiroth is not Genesis's shadow that needs to be slain by him. They've never called him as such or even linked them that closely. Again, another subjective tangent to connect Sephiroth. That's not said by any of the creators or events in Crisis COre.
[/quote]

again, opinion and fact are no polar opposites, there are plenty of things that fall into neither camp. such as a lie, this is neither opinion, nor fact. An argument outside of value judgment (ie this is good or bad) is also neither of these. a hypothesis is neither. a theory is neither. in reality there are NO facts about this game yet. there are only inferences. This is actually a hypothesis, though unprovable till the game comes out, it remains possible. It could very well become fact.

actually "if they bring sephiroth back it would suck" is an opinion, which is the predominating argument.

Suggesting genesis as sephiroth's shadow is a logical inference based on the narrative and character design. What other reason would there be to place Genesis's wing on the opposing shoulder if not symbolically connecting him as sephiroth's opposite?

1 In CC they ARE presented as rivals.

2 genesis' vow is the negation of sephiroth's vow to destroy the planet.

3 genesis was the one who pushed sephiroth into madness, a sin that he has yet to atone for.

4 They were made from rivaling experiments

there are other, more trivial likenesses between the two characters, but this is enough to get the point across that there is a narrative interweaving and inherent conflict between the two characters that has yet to be resolved.

Therefore it stands to reason that IF they make the game about genesis, sephiroth would be the most likely choice to be the villain.

Edit: I'd also like to point out that i've made no comment on the projected sales figures of ff7-2, i've merely said that it would be likely to reach a larger audience than the rest of the compilation did.

 

[Makoeyes987]

We're not discussing what's neither an opinion or fact, we're discussing what YOUR opinion is, which you stated. Stop trying to back peddle. You said that it was in S-E's financial interests to use Sephiroth again, without giving a shred of evidence to the assertion. Therefore it's not a hypothesis, or lie. It is your OPINION that its within their financial interests. For all we know, there could be sales figures that prove your assertion dead wrong. You have no actual factual evidence to support your claim aside from your own belief.

And most of your logical inferences are wrong and have been resolved in CC.

1.) Genesis's rivalry with Sephiroth was due to them being around the same age, friends and SOLDIER 1st Classes. It stemmed from Genesis wanting to meet Sephiroth as a child and fulfill his dream of sharing his Banora White Juice with him. And also prove himself as a worthy SOLDIER 1st Class. In the end, he got to fulfill his dream and find his pride as a SOLDIER 1st Class thanks to ZACK. Genesis long abandoned his rivalry in CC and was mostly fixated on recreating LOVELESS, not "beating Sephiroth his rival."

2.) Sephiroth's vow to destroy the planet is meaningless because Cloud's already beaten him and he's dead. It's not even an issue.

3.) No, Genesis was PART of the reason Sephiroth went mad. Genesis was not solely responsible. Genesis did not create Sephiroth, nor hide the truth for him, nor make him choose to go down the route of murder and slaughter a village. He was a contributing factor but not the sole factor.

4.) Yes they were, but Genesis no longer views himself as a monster. He'd have no reason to try and prove himself as "the superior Jenova specimen" if he wants to protect the planet.

Their inherent conflict has long since passed. That was called Crisis Core for the PSP. And it ended.

@Masamune

You can cover up your cynicism as much as you like but if anyone actually pays attention to the narrative with one eye open, they'll see that Sephiroth is meant to be defeated and banished for good in AC. Because Kadaj is so popular, you think fans would want him back too?

AC is about Cloud finally putting his dark memories to rest and all the plot points of the Compilation point to Sephiroth's will finally being gone. The plot of the Compilation is the window of intent of the writers. If they've closed the book on Sephiroth then clearly they mean to do it and are moving on.

And bringing in outside continuity appearances of Sephiroth as proof he'll come back is seriously lame. That has no bearing on the actual narrative of FFVII and the intent of the writers. At all. They're outside of the main FFVII continuity for a reason. They don't have to fully abandon Sephiroth and his image just because he's now past in his original game's story. And I'm glad they're not because he's an iconic figure that's fun to fight again.

 

[Max Payne]

This is a stupid argument. Conclusions drawn from nothing but assumptions and personal opinion ARE opinions. I don't see how you can argue otherwise.

And Genesis' problems did not revolve around Sephiroth, that was a small part of his story, not the central point of it.

 

[Masamune]

Sephiroth was dead and buried at the end of FFVII, yet he reared his ugly head in AC. So if they can do it once, they can do it again, I'm afraid.

You can say outside references are 'lame', but there's still a point to be made. Why do you think they put Cloud & Sephiroth in at every opportunity? Why do you think they had them fight again in AC? Because fans love it, and they know it makes money. That's their job, first and foremost.

And stop comparing Kadaj to Sephiroth, dagnammit. You're on a hiding to nothing with that one.

 

[Max Payne]

[quote author=Masamune link=topic=488.msg17369#msg17369 date=1234472514]
Sephiroth was dead and buried at the end of FFVII, yet he reared his ugly head in AC. So if they can do it once, they can do it again, I'm afraid.

[/quote]

Not without losing the respect of a lot of fans, and no, not some small minority.

There's fucking Sephiroth fangirls tired of him coming back to life and getting killed again. Nearly every gaming board I go to there's someone whining about Sephiroth coming back to fight Cloud again.

Fans don't love it that much anymore.

SE has to be aware of this.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Once again, that was because AC was a feature length film in honor of FFVII and sending off it's main storyline before moving on with the rest of the Compilation and its own unique plot. AC was the start. And it reached definitive closure. You're missing the entire context and point of AC's release in the first place. Stop comparing it as if it's the same as every other Compilation title.

And they put Cloud and Sephiroth in each of the *separate* S-E games because Cloud and Sephiroth represent FFVII the most. They are the main characters. They are the most important characters to the plot. Sorry, but that's just the truth. It's more indicative of how FFVII is the most popular if anything.

And no, because if it's about popularity and them forgoing their own written continuity and story, then they'll bring back Kadaj too. Hell, they may even bring back Aerith as well. Aerith has been shown almost as much as Cloud and Sephiroth. Maybe they'll even revive her and keep her part of the group too. That's pretty likely since she's popular and they want to make money.

 

[strode78]

listen, if you have a better idea of who genesis could possibly fight i'd LOVE to hear it, but as it stands there is a vacuum in the place of genesis' antagonist in ff vii-2. It's a simple fact. If you can posit anyone more likely than sephiroth please, go for it. But when i look at the narrative strands, i can see no other way to cap it off with any sort of definitive feel. If they introduce a brand-spankin-new threat to the planet it will feel like another series in the same universe.

In order to end it properly, they have to tie everything together and come full circle. This is ONE narrative, and at least thusfar, there has been no reason to assume that the next title will just out of the blue decide to ignore jenova and the consequences of her coming (ya know... the source of EVERY conflict and badguy thus far).

so if the compilation really is the story of jenova and the consequences of the experiments done surrounding her, it makes sense that all of the major consequences will return in the finale.

now there ARE a few other possibles

1 genesis/sephiroth fusion bad guy (far fetched, but would make sense and could be cool)

2 an unknown power that is somehow a consequence of sephiroth's existence

-someone trying to bring him back/avenge him

-something that he set in motion. for example, his will dissolving into the lifestream has contaminated it thus spawning a new corrosive intelligence (if you look back this is more or less what i've been arguing for). This model would satisfy all of the necessary preconditions of a finale, while still not really bringing him back in the traditional sense.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I have a novel idea. Why not have Genesis fight characters who aren't dead?

And wow...FFVII meets the last season of Dragonball Z. Wonderful. That's some truly epic writing right there. Yup.

I'd love it if it came full circle like that. Maybe they can do a fusion dance and become Genephiroth. Or...maybe Sephenesis. Then they'd have TWO WINGS! YES!

Then Jenova can come back from the sky! They fight and Cloud starts losing so he has to fuse with the spirit of Zack, becoming Clack! And Clack goes up against Sephenesis. Clack readies Omnislash Omega while Sephiroth charges ULTIMA FINAL NOVA and then...CLASH! Followed by...

Pyrotechnics in the distance. Followed by a guitar solo.

Holy fucking shit. You sold me dude. I want this made. NOW.

 

[Max Payne]

EVERYTHING IS BETTER WITH FUSION!

 

[Makoeyes987]

Fuck Nomura, let Michael Bay at the Compilation. He'll make it happen.

 

[strode78]

lol are you saying there's been no precedent for it already? nero/weiss anyone?

again not pusing for the fusion thing, but could be interesting

 

[Makoeyes987]

That's not fusion. That's Nero's spirit living on in Weiss. If that's the case Aerith fused with Cloud too.

You're postulating that Genesis and Sephiroth should merge into some super final boss or something. I'd like to keep that with Majin Buu, thank you.

 

[Tetsujin]

[quote author=Makoeyes987 link=topic=488.msg17392#msg17392 date=1234475244]
Fuck Nomura, let Michael Bay at the Compilation. He'll make it happen.
[/quote]

Wait, wait...

Pyrotechnics in the distance. Followed by a guitar solo.

...Michael Bay?
Doesn't the above quote actually sound EXACTLY like Advent Children...?