The Genesis Sequel

[Masamune]

Where did I say "they'll bring Sephiroth back any chance they'll get"? I never said that. My stance is that there's a good possibility that the final chapter of FFVII will feature Sephiroth again.

And again, you haven't proved they've closed the avenues for his return and have "moved away from Sephiroth", based on ONE game. If writers want someone back, they'll pull anything out of their asses. (Hojo uploaded to the internetz anyone?)

Zack, Aerith, and Kadaj haven't been resurrected (yet), Sephiroth has. There's the difference.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Then I guess there's a good chance that Aerith will be in the final chapter of FFVII because of how popular she is, her appearance to Cloud in AC after her death (which you could argue was a sort of resurrection that was personal to Cloud), and how she's been in as many outside titles as Sephiroth.

See? It's a fun game!

And no, I'm basing it on two. DC certainly didn't give us any incling of Sephiroth, when it so EASILY could've. It was ripe for the happening. It would've been easy as spit. Crisis Core didn't either which is tied to DC. Instead, it introduced and hinted at a NEW threat or character, and new elements to the planet.

They could've easily have done that with Sephiroth instead of just Genesis. But did they? No. They made a creative choice to keep Sephiroth in the past. Why would they build up this new threat and character and just spring Sephiroth out at the last minute?

You're closing yourself off to the obvious "HEY NEW THREAT GUYS" and instead looking towards *outside* evidence to purport this pessimistic and somewhat silly notion that Sephiroth could come back.

And yes its silly, because it'd be idiotic to bring him back to just die again. It'd be idiotic to have him face the same fate again. It's an insult to their intelligence. You don't have to like the creators and what they do, but don't make them out to be retards.

 

[Masamune]

Fun game? Not really, because you insist on taking things out of context.

Where would be the sense in reviving Aerith & Zack (particularly after cheesing-up his death)? Aerith's death is one of the most iconic in video-game history. Even SE know their limits in that respect.

Sephiroth is a villain. A popular one. The fans love to see him, but at the same time we all know he's gonna be sent packing again. It's a formula that works, and it's one they used for AC. That's why it's typically villains who make comebacks.

And it's funny you say it would be stupid to bring him back just to die again, even though they did this in AC. But for some reason, AC is allowed to get away with it because it's "fanservice".

Actually, DC & CC introduced Genesis - a figure with one-wing, Jenova connections, and a grudge against Sephiroth. So no, they haven't left Sephiroth behind have they? You don't think there's any room there WHATSOEVER to connect Sephiroth to the next game? That's rhetorical btw, because I know your faith in SE is blinkered.

 

[Makoeyes987]

LMAO!

Where would the sense be in reviving Sephiroth? Particularly after cheesing and building up his defeat? Sephiroth's defeat and appearance in AC and now AC Complete is iconic. Even SE know their limits in that respect!

See?!? Give me a break!

Aerith is a hero. A popular one. The fans love to see her, but at the same time we all know she's gonna appear again. It's a formula that works, and its one they used for AC. That's why particular heroes make comebacks. Look at comic books.

And again, what part of AC being a special movie for the original FFVII, to bring back all of the heroes and villains for the big screen, don't you want to acknowledge? Here, I'll quote the creators for you.

The Advent Children Project
The original AC movie was a 20 minute drama starring Cloud, Tifa and a few children. Nomura liked what he saw and expanded upon the story until it became a 100 minute movie. New characters and a new crisis would be introduced, all the while giving fans of FF7 a nostalgic experience by bringing back the original cast they were familiar with. Kazushige Nojima was used to answering phone calls from Nomura, especially whenever something had to be added to the scenario by the morning. Although Nomura spoke in a soft voice on the phone to him about AC, Nojima was scared.

This is from the flaregamer article that talks about the conception and development of AC.

http://flaregamer.com/b2article.php?p=109&more=1

Now do you see the context? Stop riding on AC's purposeful intent on invoking nostalgia and reuniting all the main characters as some sign thats what the Compilation is going to do for its new, expanded story. It doesn't make sense.

Why do they bring back villains in comic books for anniversary issues or super epic crossovers that pit all the heroes against their villains in existential combat?

Yes, it gets away with it because its fanservice and then its closed. We move on, and the plot marches on.

....And if you really think that's all there is to Genesis then there's no point in me trying to explain it. Criticism of his character be damned, that's not all he is in the Compilation or in CC. That's like saying Cloud's just a puppet of Sephiroth, who was a failed copy and carries a big sword. It's very easy to snap to conclusions if you only gloss the surface haphazardly.

 

[Masamune]

What was the point of bringing Sephiroth back in AC? Nostalgia? They could have shown some flashbacks and been done with it.

And again, Aerith wouldn't return because she's pretty much symbolized by her death. They wouldn't push it. Which is funny, because you told me not to insinuate SE are idiots, yet when I give them 'credit' for this you won't let it go.

The final sequel to FFVII would carry just as many nostalgic connotations as AC, if not more. It would be the final farewell to the characters, and I'm sure many a fanboy will believe Sephiroth deserves an appearance.

That's like saying Cloud's just a puppet of Sephiroth, who was a failed copy and carries a big sword.

Cloud was enough reason to bring back Sephiroth in AC, so why wouldn't the same apply to Genesis?

 

[Makoeyes987]

Flashbacks do not make a plot or give a character one final send off unique for the movie. That's not what they were doing, as shown in the interview and the intent of the film.

And Sephiroth is symbolized by his defeat from Cloud. Again, they wouldn't push it.

I'm just making a point to show how arbitrary and illogical it is to actually believe they'd bring back Sephiroth, given the direction of their writing. I don't believe they'd bring back Aerith anymore than they'd bring back Sephiroth. They're in the past. And dead.

And no, it wouldn't. Because the final spinoff to the FFVII *Compilation* would be to resolve the new storyline UNIQUE to the Compilation.

A game that would ride on the nostalgia of FFVII would be a remake.

And the same wouldn't apply to Genesis because the plot has gone and seperated Genesis from Sephiroth now. He's beyond that now, as I've been talking about three pages ago. Just because he has a black wing doesn't make him some avatar of Sephiroth now. Let's look at the actual context of Genesis's character and present standing now please. He's no more connected to Jenova and Sephiroth now, than Cloud. Who used to be his puppet.

They've moved on past that.

 

[Masamune]

[quote author=Makoeyes987 link=topic=488.msg18128#msg18128 date=1234658229]
Flashbacks do not make a plot or give a character one final send off unique for the movie.[/quote]

Not really unique, when it's a rinse-repeat of FFVII.

[quote author=Makoeyes987 link=topic=488.msg18128#msg18128 date=1234658229]And Sephiroth is symbolized by his defeat from Cloud. Again, they wouldn't push it.[/quote]

Yet they did with AC. Oh wait, we're going in circles.

[quote author=Makoeyes987 link=topic=488.msg18128#msg18128 date=1234658229]I'm just making a point to show how arbitrary and illogical it is to actually believe they'd bring back Sephiroth, given the direction of their writing. I don't believe they'd bring back Aerith anymore than they'd bring back Sephiroth. They're in the past. And dead.[/quote]

What is illogical about Sephiroth being popular and a proverbial cash-cow for Square Enix? The Compilation is just a sell-out of FFVII.

[quote author=Makoeyes987 link=topic=488.msg18128#msg18128 date=1234658229]And no, it wouldn't. Because the final spinoff to the FFVII *Compilation* would be to resolve the new storyline UNIQUE to the Compilation.[/quote]

That's your opinion, but it's not a fact. No one actually knows what's coming next.

[quote author=Makoeyes987 link=topic=488.msg18128#msg18128 date=1234658229]And the same wouldn't apply to Genesis because the plot has gone and seperated Genesis from Sephiroth now. He's beyond that now, as I've been talking about three pages ago. Just because he has a black wing doesn't make him some avatar of Sephiroth now. Let's look at the actual context of Genesis's character and present standing now please. He's no more connected to Jenova and Sephiroth now, than Cloud. Who used to be his puppet.[/quote]

I would like to believe you're right, but I know how these things work.

But again, I reiterate I've never said he will be back. It just wouldn't surprise me if he is.

 

[Makoeyes987]

That is your opinion. The threat to the world in AC, was new for the film, and was the way they wanted to bring back Sephiroth for one final fight on the silver screen. That was the intent.

And they pushed Aerith too by having her appear again in AC. Yes, it's going in circles, because you can play the same game, and it won't make any more sense than it does. Which is really, none.

BINGO! See? There's the point behind what you're saying.

Your pessimism and hate is blinding you to the fact of what they're writing. Aerith's a "cashcow" too. By your logic, I guess she'll be sold out too and revived. Give me a break. You don't have to like it, but for fuck's sake, give them the credit they deserve. If you really believe they're gonna bring Sephiroth back, and can't see the overarching story and its progression away from Sephiroth, I can't help you. You're not even going to look at the story and the narrative objectively. You're too busy having fun trying to pick it apart and dislike it.

Everything's opinion, but we can go by evidence which gives opinions more standing than others. I'm missing the whole "the plot is slowly moving closer and building up to Sephy-poo returning" theme here. If every opinion is equal, then I guess we can also infer there's a chance of Aerith and Zack coming back too.

And well you'll believe what you want. I think I've made my point as much as I can. In the end, it really does just come down to how you see it, but maybe you should try to see the Compilation in less dark-tinted glasses and give them just a teeny bit more credit than that.

Or don't. Whichever works for you, man.

 

[Tetsujin]

And also by your logic, Squall should be getting a new game soon, given how popular he is. He has just as many outside guest appearances in other games as Sephiroth. He's very popular too. So expect the new FFVIII Compilation too.

I wouldn't put it past them to be honest.
I think FFVIII would be one of the titles that are the likeliest (sp?) to get a sequel...

 

[Makoeyes987]

Maybe it will, maybe it won't.

But the whole "Outside appearances = direction of series" argument isn't exactly the most sound basis for gauging how the original franchise is gonna work.

If that were the case, then I guess Aerith's coming back and Cloud and Aerith are gonna hold hands while picking flowers in the field together forever.

 

[Nocturne]

I agree with what Mako Eyes says.

Honestly, I think people give SE alot of crap over FF7 that they dont deserve.

 

[Masamune]

Makoeyes, don't get your knickers in a twist just because someone disagrees with you and doesn't love SE unconditionally. This has nothing to do with hate, it's to do with facts. Sephiroth grabs a lot of screentime because of his popularity, and yet you can categorically say he won't appear in a sequel because you know the story is moving on.... based on DoC? Vincent's game? And again, don't say "Well they could have tied Sephiroth into DoC", because we've been there and done that a page or so back.

Your ad nauseum point about Aerith/Zack makes no sense, because Aerith/Zack were never revived in the first place. Sephiroth was. So why are you trying to be a smartass? If you were to ask me if it's possible Aerith & Zack may appear in some spirit guide form again, I wouldn't rule it out.

 

[Restless]

I honestly can see Sephiroth appearing in the next title. If we don't count DoC:LE, Seph has managed to worm his way into every Compilation title, whether it be in a flashback, as an enemy, or as a comrade. And...He's Sephiroth. FFVII's main enemy, a video game icon. I don't think he'll be the main villian, but I can see him definately in flashbacks and possibly as some spirit-thing. It's what comes with the territory of having a game with one of his past best friends, and the fact that he's extremely popular.

Now, I don't hate the Compilation titles or bash them. They all have their faults, but all have better points as well (and some are much better than others). At this point, though, it's illogical to totally rule out the possibility of Seph coming back. I hope he doesn't, but we never know what SE is going to pull next.

 

[Super Mario]

Or bluntly put. Even though some of us are NO MORE SEPHIROTH, we'll still be spoonfed by it, even if it were me meddling with the kids of SE to stop chucking it like crap into a toilet.

 

[ForceStealer]

[quote author=Restless link=topic=488.msg18283#msg18283 date=1234714717]I don't think he'll be the main villian, but I can see him definately in flashbacks and possibly as some spirit-thing. [/quote]

I don't think anyone denies he'll be named or flashed back to, in fact, I would prefer that there is some mention made of the lasting effect he's had. (As that was always how I took "I'll never be a memory." He'll always be more than just a memory)
But a flashback and him comigback are two totally different things. And I really wouldn't count his appearence in DC as "worming his way" into a compilation title. Lucrecia WAS his mother, it'd be weird if they made no reference to that. And showing a 5 second clip of the famous fire scene isn't much at all.

And I never said its completely impossible for him to come back. Actually I said SE's making it, they could do whatever they want, Kuja could show up. But I was saying that I would be very surprised if they did that. I think they would prefer to maintain some credibility in the story and not repeatedly beat the same horse. (And having him in Advent Children WAS different and you know it. There was no Compilation yet, it was a tribute. You can't do a tribute without all the major characters)

Now, I know my line about credibility in the plot will illicit more snide remarks, so to nip this in the bud, just because you don't like the story doesn't mean that they aren't actively and consciously writing it. You say they'll stick Sephy in there for the extra money it will get them, well despite him "worming his way" into all the compilation titles I have heard FAR more people either ripping on, or simply oblivious to the compilation than praising it.

 

[Makoeyes987]

[quote author=Masamune link=topic=488.msg18268#msg18268 date=1234709618]
Makoeyes, don't get your knickers in a twist just because someone disagrees with you and doesn't love SE unconditionally. This has nothing to do with hate, it's to do with facts.[/quote]

It's not a "fact" thinking "The Compilation is just a sell-out of FFVII." And who says you have to love SE unconditionally? Did you not read my last post?

Sephiroth grabs a lot of screentime because of his popularity, and yet you can categorically say he won't appear in a sequel because you know the story is moving on.... based on DoC? Vincent's game? And again, don't say "Well they could have tied Sephiroth into DoC", because we've been there and done that a page or so back.

I didn't just say based on DC. I also said based on Crisis Core's plot and tie in with the compilation and the entire direction of the story of said Compilation. If you can't acknowledge and see the connection between Sephiroth and Lucrecia, then I ask you to remember who Sephiroth's real parentage are. He was more than fair game for DC.

Your ad nauseum point about Aerith/Zack makes no sense, because Aerith/Zack were never revived in the first place. Sephiroth was. So why are you trying to be a smartass? If you were to ask me if it's possible Aerith & Zack may appear in some spirit guide form again, I wouldn't rule it out.

First off, since your point is about them breaking the rules of conventional good writing at the expense of commercialism and popularity you cannot tell me it isn't an adequate comparison bringing Aerith into the equation.

It doesn't matter if she hasn't been "revived" in the Lazarus sense of the word. Aerith being brought back in spirit form to interact with the living world in AC, is still them "bringing her back for the story" but we accept it because we know she's still "dead". People criticized her appearance in AC and said it cheapened her death. Death doesn't seem as permanent if they come back and interact with the world as spirits.

You think it'll be okay if they revive Sephiroth but then say, "Look he's just a ghost, so it's different" and have him as phantom Sephiroth? Please.

You want to say they'll bring back Sephiroth because they did it once in AC and he's popular? They did the same with Aerith. In terms of writing, they brought Aerith's character back as a ghost. No need to play semantics. She came back in AC. So by your logic, and Aerith grabbing just as much screentime as Sephiroth, I'm pointing out the same can be said for Aerith.

Sephiroth is defined by his defeat from Cloud as an enemy and a subsequent revival cheapens his defeat and the accomplishments of the main game. It also cheapens Sephiroth's role as an antagonist, and cheapens the story's legitimacy.

 

[Nocturne]

Not to mention, Hojo was in Dirge, and was linked to Sephiroth as well. And they didnt bring him back.

Sephiroth will show up in a sequel though, Im guessing as in a flash back or talked about since Genesis will be in it. I think Genesis will mention him, but like Mako says, he isnt Genesis's focus, nor was he in Crisis Core.

 

[Restless]

I have had no problem with Seph in the Compilation titles; AC was a bit forced, but it was at the beginning (only BC had been released). It probably could have been better executed, though. "Worming his way in" could be taken many different ways. Seph in DoC was fine because it was a five second flashback of a scene we had seen multiple times. The other titles worked with him, partly because they were took place in the past. Not having flashbacks of him would be strange, but then the question of "how much flashback time is too much" comes up. He'll get time, more than in DoC for sure, but how much will be reused scenes? Will there be too many flashbacks, making cutscenes feel jumbled? How will SE execute the next title without having it rely too much on Sephiroth (there are certain books/movies/etc that use too many flashbacks, and not always ones that directly relate to the plot)?

And, then we have to keep in mind that this may very well be the last Compilation title. They set a certain amount of years to work on the Compilation, and whether or not they are going to make an FFVII remake in that time period heavily influences what will happen. Assuming it's the last game, the creators might want to add in a bit of Sephiroth. No real reason, other than that he was at the start, and they want it to finsih off with him. It is arguable that the choice would be good or bad, but there's a possiblity of it happening.

Popularity of a character is something that always must be kept in mind. A business is a business. They are in it to make money. Sephiroth just happens to be an icon they can exploit to make money. The creators themselves may not be like that, they may care and listen to fans. But SE as a whole is a company. I can't really say more, because I don't know how much the company can influence the creators (example, them requesting certain characters, etc). It's just something to keep in mind. I don't think the creators are idiots, and I'm sure they are thinking about crediblity.

But, ForceStealer, I didn't really say anything about my thoughts on AC or anything. I wasn't replying to anyone in particular, just giving my opinion on the subject. Maybe it was just me, but you seemed to be aiming the entire post at me, when I didn't say anything about the writing skills and such. I didn't think I was being snide, either. :-\ Or were you making your post a reponse to no one in particular, as an early rebuttal? If so, sorry...The use of 'you's after a quote can be confusing, just because it may or may not be talking about someone in particular.

 

[Masamune]

And who says you have to love SE unconditionally? Did you not read my last post?

You do, because you jump on people's backs at the slightest bit of criticism.

I didn't just say based on DC. I also said based on Crisis Core's plot and tie in with the compilation and the entire direction of the story of said Compilation. If you can't acknowledge and see the connection between Sephiroth and Lucrecia, then I ask you to remember who Sephiroth's real parentage are. He was more than fair game for DC.

But I already explained this. Sephiroth may be a cash-cow, but SE aren't seriously going to bring him back again RIGHT after AC. They'd obviously space out his appearances.

First off, since your point is about them breaking the rules of conventional good writing at the expense of commercialism and popularity you cannot tell me it isn't an adequate comparison bringing Aerith into the equation.

Like I said, Aerith could very well return as a ghost, but they aren't going to resurrect her in the flesh because that really would tarnish her death. They haven't done it so far, so I can safely assume they won't be so stupid in the future.

Sephiroth is defined by his defeat from Cloud as an enemy and a subsequent revival cheapens his defeat and the accomplishments of the main game. It also cheapens Sephiroth's role as an antagonist, and cheapens the story's legitimacy.

But I have to ask why none of this applies to AC? 'Because it's unadulterated fanservice' is a pretty pathetic reason, when that could pretty much apply to almost all of the Compilation. You're just using it as an excuse to get away with anything it likes.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Welcome to the internet? If you don't want your ideas or criticisms discussed, then a forum isn't necessarily the best place to air them. If I want to challenge them intellectually, I don't see why not. I already said two posts ago in the end its your opinion how you feel and you'll feel how you like. No one's attacking you by challenging your view point on the matter.

But I already explained this. Sephiroth may be a cash-cow, but SE aren't seriously going to bring him back again RIGHT after AC. They'd obviously space out his appearances.

You say they're being motivated by popularity and greed, thus sparking bad writing and sell out tactics. But then when they break that convention regarding Sephiroth in regards to FFVII's plot they're just "spacing it out." What will it take for you to fully accept Sephiroth isn't being made the primary focus of the Compilation?

Like I said, Aerith could very well return as a ghost, but they aren't going to resurrect her in the flesh because that really would tarnish her death. They haven't done it so far, so I can safely assume they won't be so stupid in the future.

You're getting hung up on semantics, and really, Aerith coming back as a ghost again to Cloud would be bad writing too. Just because she doesn't have a corporeal body, doesn't make her coming back any less of an appearance post death. A death by definition is permanent, where you don't see the person ever again in life. Cloud sees Aerith again, post death. Cheapening the permanence of her mortality. You can't say just because she doesn't have a body, her appearing as a ghost again and again would be okay.

But I have to ask why none of this applies to AC? 'Because it's unadulterated fanservice' is a pretty pathetic reason, when that could pretty much apply to almost all of the Compilation. You're just using it as an excuse to get away with anything it likes.

You seem to think any form of pleasing of the fans and writing a story is automatically a sin. Don't take their words out of context. After nearly 7 years of nothing Final Fantasy VII, it is not absurd or out in left field for the creators to bring back THEIR characters for a special "reunion" that not only introduces a new plot, but also brings back the characters for a portrayal on the silver screen. It's commemorative piece for FFVII and a continuation of its plot. When it first was made, there was NOT several other FFVII games out and a new full fledged expanded universe.

Keep AC in its context if you're going to dicuss its place in the plot and its creation. NOW, such a game/film isn't necessary because that nostalgic return to the original plot and characters has been done and finished. There are three other FFVII games out to the public. FFVII is no longer a "pandora's box" that has never been opened.

Now they've opened and are taking it further than it was originally. So no, the same rules don't apply to AC, which was the first, and done for a specific reason.

 

[Masamune]

Welcome to the internet? If you don't want your ideas or criticisms discussed, then a forum isn't necessarily the best place to air them. If I want to challenge them intellectually, I don't see why not. I already said two posts ago in the end its your opinion how you feel and you'll feel how you like. No one's attacking you by challenging your view point on the matter.

Then don't complain when I say you want people to love SE unconditionally.

You're getting hung up on semantics, and really, Aerith coming back as a ghost again to Cloud would be bad writing too.

There's no interpretation involved here. An apparition does not equate to a resurrection. I guess Obi Wan, Yoda, and Darth were all resurrected at the end of Star Wars then?

You can't say just because she doesn't have a body, her appearing as a ghost again and again would be okay.

That point had nothing to do with what is or isn't acceptable. You said Aerith is popular, therefore by my reasoning she would also appear in the future. I agree that she might, but it would be as a ghost again and nothing more.

If AC is apparently the exception, so far as fanservice goes, why on earth was Hojo in DC? Similar to Cloud, Vincent didn't need to face his old nemesis again. He had already defeated him and concluded that chapter of his life. The reason? Because fans love to see old characters, and SE know they can link the nostalgia into the new games.

 

[Makoeyes987]

But...where do I say I want people to love S-E unconditionally? That's baseless. Because I enjoy the Compilation, doesn't mean I think it's perfect or above criticism. I don't know how you can perceive one's actions of enjoyment as someone who wants everyone to enjoy said subject of enjoyment. That's illogical.

Star Wars didn't bank itself on the theme of "life" and how death is permanent and forever. The creators of Star Wars didn't say they wanted to break the pattern of the cliche of death never really being seen as permanent or it never happening suddenly and without warning. The themes of those two stories are not the same. You can't compare the two.

They killed Aerith because they wanted to show the significance of death and how death is forever and removes them forever. Pushing Aerith back from the grave as a spirit or zombie makes no difference. She has to stay dead.

You said Aerith is popular, therefore by my reasoning she would also appear in the future. I agree that she might, but it would be as a ghost again and nothing more.

Well I think that'd be stupid too. Aerith has no reason to appear to Cloud again and again. She shouldn't just be appearing post-death again and again to people. She should be at peace now.

Hojo was in DC because of bad writing. That was a poor choice, with poor implimentation. They should've focused on Weiss and Lucrecia. If they wanted Hojo back, they shouldn't have had his digital/spirit turn out to be the one controlling the entire show. It was poorly done.

However, it didn't work, and DC ended up being significantly weaker. And sure enough, they didn't do the same thing with Crisis Core.

 

[Masamune]

But...where do I say I want people to love S-E unconditionally?

Because you show an intolerance of criticism by choosing to debate it all the time. Surely you can respect some people don't agree with 'x' storyline, instead of telling them how wrong they are?

Star Wars didn't bank itself on the theme of "life" and how death is permanent and forever. The creators of Star Wars didn't say they wanted to break the pattern of the cliche of death never really being seen as permanent or it never happening suddenly and without warning. The themes of those two stories are not the same. You can't compare the two.

Woah, where are you going with this? I was simply making the point that Aerith/Obi Wan et al were all ghosts, were they not? That does not mean they were "resurrected". Sephiroth was, but Aerith was not.

They killed Aerith because they wanted to show the significance of death and how death is forever and removes them forever. Pushing Aerith back from the grave as a spirit or zombie makes no difference. She has to stay dead.

Agreed. *blinks*

Well I think that'd be stupid too. Aerith has no reason to appear to Cloud again and again. She shouldn't just be appearing post-death again and again to people. She should be at peace now.

Again, I agree with you. But SE are a business, who profit from fanservice. This is why I would not rule out her making another appearance in the future. Again, as a ghost though. They're not gonna resurrect her.

Hojo was in DC because of bad writing. That was a poor choice, with poor implimentation. They should've focused on Weiss and Lucrecia. If they wanted Hojo back, they shouldn't have had his digital/spirit turn out to be the one controlling the entire show. It was poorly done.

That's my point. It was a bad choice plotwise to bring Hojo back, but they did it anyway because of fanservice.

However, it didn't work, and DC ended up being significantly weaker. And sure enough, they didn't do the same thing with Crisis Core.

Well, they couldn't really bring any famous characters back to life in CC, as it was a prequel.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Because you show an intolerance of criticism by choosing to debate it all the time. Surely you can respect some people don't agree with 'x' storyline, instead of telling them how wrong they are?

How does enjoying a debate show intolerance? My desire to debate and discuss things, doesn't mean I'm intolerant of the opposing viewpoint. At all. I debate things I like, and things I don't like but I choose to do it because it's intellectually stimulating and I enjoy hearing and challenging the different viewpoints.

Woah, where are you going with this? I was simply making the point that Aerith/Obi Wan et al were all ghosts, were they not? That does not mean they were "resurrected". Sephiroth was, but Aerith was not.

In a story where the theme is "life" and "death is permanent," bringing back a character as a ghost to constantly interact with the living, is just as theme breaking as giving them flesh. I'm saying this because, while it works for Star Wars, it's not as appropriate in FFVII.

Yeah, technically speaking Aerith hasn't been revived, but it is just as inappropriate. It's still her coming BACK.

That's my point. It was a bad choice plotwise to bring Hojo back, but they did it anyway because of fanservice.

Yes it was, but I don't think that bad choice completely overrides and cancels out the fact that the plot is still moving away from Sephiroth, which *is* good writing, and allowing Sephiroth's character and story not to be cheapened.

Well, they couldn't really bring any famous characters back to life in CC, as it was a prequel.

They could, however, have tied the story to some original character, like Sephiroth, had him be the predominant focus as antagonist, and subsequently tied it into some future threat from Sephiroth, Hojo, or any of the past villains or characters. Instead, they chose to do something new and focus on a newer character as the antagonist, and again...move away from Sephiroth, Jenova cells, and Hojo.

They didn't repeat the past bad writing mistake of DC.

 

[Masamune]

[quote author=Makoeyes987 link=topic=488.msg18438#msg18438 date=1234739065]
How does enjoying a debate show intolerance? My desire to debate and discuss things, doesn't mean I'm intolerant of the opposing viewpoint. At all. I debate things I like, and things I don't like but I choose to do it because it's intellectually stimulating and I enjoy hearing and challenging the different viewpoints.[/quote]

You're entitled to disagree with people, but when you contest criticism on a regular basis it gives the impression that you can't accept difference of opinion.

In a story where the theme is "life" and "death is permanent," bringing back a character as a ghost to constantly interact with the living, is just as theme breaking as giving them flesh. I'm saying this because, while it works for Star Wars, it's not as appropriate in FFVII.

FFVII was never truly nihilistic, because the Lifestream theory contradicts that right away. People die, but their spirits live on and are reborn. As opposed to people becoming worm-food full-stop. Yes Aerith's death was permanent, but the line between life & death was a thin one in FFVII and its subsequent titles.

Yeah, technically speaking Aerith hasn't been revived, but it is just as inappropriate. It's still her coming BACK.

So you disagree with this in AC? Because you either do or you don't, otherwise you're flip-flopping.

They could, however, have tied the story to some original character, like Sephiroth, had him be the predominant focus as antagonist, and subsequently tied it into some future threat from Sephiroth, Hojo, or any of the past villains or characters. Instead, they chose to do something new and focus on a newer character as the antagonist, and again...move away from Sephiroth, Jenova cells, and Hojo.

How exactly could they have tied a future threat from Sephiroth into the game, when it finishes at the beginning of FFVII?