The Good and The Bad of Final Fantasy XII

[Gabranth]

Well hello. I just beat FF12.

While I think the story had a lot of flaws, the fact it's more centered on politcla intrigue and not saving the world provides a nice shade of grey not seen in most FF games.

I know a lot of people thought Vayne wasn't all that bad when you finally encounter the Occuria. I disagree but that's the point really. You can debate the actions going on in the game. You can't do that with older FFs. "is Exdeath doing the right thing? I wonder if Emperor Mateus has noble motivations?"

Though on the other side of the spectrum, the heroes aren't all that heroic. Well, apart from Basch. But Ashe and Vaan spend most of the game wanting to kill and take revenge. Hell, it's even left vague on whether Ashe will do as the Occuria ask and destroy the Empire.

Overall, I think Larsa was the most heroic character in the game and while Vayne was a power-hungry douchebag, I thinK Cid was a Well-Intentioned Extremist.

So, what were your thoughts on the Grey and Grey Morality of the game? Was Vayne "the main villain"? Surely he was the primary antagonist but how villainous did you see him and the Empire?
Also how heroic did you see the protagonists?

 

[Celes Chere]

I think Larsa was the most heroic character in the game

You're my new best friend.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Hell, it's even left vague on whether Ashe will do as the Occuria ask and destroy the Empire.

Huh? I thought that wasn't vague; she isn't. Not only did she decide not to in the game itself, but now she more or less can't, with the deicite depowered and the Sun-Cryst kaput. And if Revenant Wings is anything to go by, she's more or less done with the whole Empire hating thing.

 

[Gabranth]

I was referring to when the party first travels to the Pharos. They bring along the Sword of Kings which will destroy the Cryst's power and the Treaty Blade which would allow her to cut her own Nethicite shards and destroy the Empire. She doesn't make up her mind until they get to there.

It's kind of the pinnacle of her and Vaan's character development that, at that point, they finally get over their desire for revenge.

Oh and I forgot to mention Vossler. What he did wasn't bad at all, really. He was just trying to save Dalmasca and he understood a war with Archadia was a futile struggle.

 

[Splintered]

I loved the plot but sometimes it was hard to follow during the first playthrough, at least compared to other Final Fantasies. This also might have something to do with that you would take a long chunk out of the time between story points just doing hunts.

My first thought was that I didn't particularly care for Vayne as a villain. Nor do I think he was completely doing this for the good of man. Not like Cid or Venat, as fanatical as they were. Vayne definitely had selfish intentions, and probably the most telling scene was him replying to Venat (iirc) about that's for far too long, his actions has gone "unrewarded." It's probably his best delivered line in the game.

he other side of the spectrum, the heroes aren't all that heroic. Well, apart from Basch. But Ashe and Vaan spend most of the game wanting to kill and take revenge.

To be fair, FFVII has that too. There's definitely a sense of a personal vendetta with a lot of the characters until it's crunch time to save the world.

Vaan's revenge kick had more to do with maturity than anything else, he grew up and stopped caring so much for it. Ashe has a dual conflict, being that of her anger and her duty to her country- both of which show the Nethecite would be the easiest way to satisfy both.

Anyway, the moral grey was definitely something FFXII pushed in their plot. I enjoyed it though I wonder if took away from the epic-fantasy of it all.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

When I first played FF12 I thought "Lamont" was a girl until I finished the mines and they called him Vayne's brother. I was like "wait, that's a guy?" To this day I remain not entirely convinced.

 

[Gabranth]

My first thought was that I didn't particularly care for Vayne as a villain. Nor do I think he was completely doing this for the good of man. Not like Cid or Venat, as fanatical as they were. Vayne definitely had selfish intentions

Yes, while I think Larsa is the most heroic character in the game, I think Vayne is the most villainous.

Also Venat is hardly blameless. You'll remember he...she...it was with Bergan when he committed the totally unnecessary massacr eat Mt. Bur-omisace.

As it stands, I think Cid was the least evil. He did wrong things but he only thought of helping humanity as a whole while he did them. This doesn't excuse him but when comparing villains, it makes him seem much less monstrous.

Venat and the Occuria are next, neither one being better than the other. They basically did the same thing but for different reasons.

Then comes Vayne. He wanted only to be the new Dynast-King and he'd only free humanity from the Occuria's tyranny to replace it with his own.

and probably the most telling scene was him replying to Venat (iirc) about that's for far too long, his actions has gone "unrewarded." It's probably his best delivered line in the game.

It's obviously a personal preference thing and maybe it's the awesome Theme of the Empire in the background, but I think he had his best lines in the first fight with him.
Skip to 2:12

Favorite part is "For good and and all, I shall put your futile attempts at rebellion to an end!"

Then ya gotta love "what am I to do with those who would oppose me...BUT SHOW THEM DEATH!"

When I first played FF12 I thought "Lamont" was a girl until I finished the mines and they called him Vayne's brother. I was like "wait, that's a guy?" To this day I remain not entirely convinced.

I thought he was a girl as well.

 

[Gabranth]

Crap, it's "bring your futile attempts at rebellion to an end". Oh well.

 

[EX_SOLDIER]

I don't remember too much about the characters or the story. What I do remember is that the game had some serious changes from past FF games and that it's story was very different from the others main points. It was a good game in its own right, but nothing to write home about. Heck to be honest the only thing I know now is they just aren't making GOOD FF games like they did back in the day. VII and VIII, X, ya know those. They were some of the best in my opinion. For me it's all about character design, personality, history, storyline, etc... It makes it more interesting to play through these games when those qualities are factored in.

 

[Gabranth]

I gotta say I also always liked the fan speculation on Raithwall. Was he the kind ruler who brought peace? Or does the later meetings with the Occuria show history is written by the victors and maybe he just blew up everyone who disagreed with him?

 

[Ghost X]

FFXII is my second favourite FF after FFVII, only because FFVII wasn't lazy in graphically displaying a lot of its story. FFXII's story (found mostly as text, rather than visuals) leaves the other FF games in the dust, in my opinion, in its own right and also with help of the Ivalice compilation. The moral ambiguity is excellent. Good versus evil is boring.

 

[Wiegraf]

Final Fantasy XII is my favorite main series installment. I love the exploration, story, characters, music, atmosphere, non-linearity, and overall think that it is the perfect modern RPG. I loved it so much that FFX was a drag after I played FFXII. I can't think of anything to complain about when it comes to FFXII to be honest (except maybe Penelo)

 

[Kobato]

FF XII fans are going to hate me for this, but I thought that FF XII was the worst Final Fantasy ever, even worse than FF XI which was online with glitches and faults. The main characters Vaan and Penelo were a complete bore, the storyline was a dry as sandpaper and the battle system was a horrible change to the FF series. The only good thing about FF XII was Larsa. He was a kindhearted leader and a well-developed character, unlike the rest of the characters who were like card board cut outs. The music wasn't that great either, it had nothing special about it like the other Final Fantasies, it was just sound in the background. There's Nothing magical or special about XII at all.

 

[Celes Chere]

The main characters Vaan and Penelo were a complete bore, the storyline was a dry as sandpaper

I like to look at FFXII as being one of those games that has no definite main character, like FFVI. I suppose that Ashe is more the main character than Vaan (though he was tied in a little bit by his brother and such), and Balthier is more the main male character than Vaan is. . . but I don't think that's really a bad thing. xD Yeah, I too wish that Vaan and Penelo had more relevance, but I don't think that it makes the two bad characters either. I really adored both of them, their personalities are so sweet so it's hard not to... at least for me. He reminds me of Zidane in the way that he's the homeless thief that gets caught up in the affairs of the princess. (Though Zidane ended up being a WAY more epic character than Vaan xD) Truth is they could have done more with Vaan and Penelo both, but I never hated the characters because of that. I actually really liked the story line, it was sort of different in it's own way. I actually found it quite interesting, not the edge of my seat interesting, but I didn't think it was like sandpaper either. ;P I agree that the battle system was more than a little annoying, especially the WORTHLESS gambits that I never used the entire game. The quickenings that allow you to demolish anything if you're good at it, and the liscences were pretty fracking annoying. xD I will admit that I eventually stopped bitching (except for about Gambits, every time I got a new Gambit slot I was like FFFFUUUUU) and got pretty used to it. Yeah, I even had fun playing it. Some parts of the game were challening, too! Or at least... I thought so. I had trouble in the Fey, and for some reason I could not kill that blasted Tiamat the first time. X__x The hunts were really cool too, in my opinion... maybe it's because I like getting treasure, idk. xD

The only good thing about FF XII was Larsa. He was a kindhearted leader and a well-developed character

I agree-- that Larsa is the best character! However, disagree he is the best thing about FFXII. Such a shame he was never a perma member of the party. <=( I also agree about the music - definitely NOT the best. I don't think there's any music in that game that caught my attention fully and made me go: "WOW". Idk about there being nothing special//memorable about the game. I thought this scene was pretty powerful:

And this scene actually made me tear up a little. T_T

DRACE.... ;____; I loved her and then of course... that...

I also thought the opening of the game was fucking epic! You're thrown into this battle and you see the sorrow Ashe goes through, it drags you in. Did you not think that was a good opening or like, what was wrong with it? XD

 

[Joe]

Although not the best in the series, and with a battle system I did not favour, this was one of the more memorable games for me.

The ending stuck out most for me with it, truely something Epic if I do say so myself.

 

[Max Payne]

I will never understand the retardation people have with the battle system.

It's fantastic and for once in an FF game grinding wasn't a fucking chore.

FF fans are so disappointing.

 

[Joe]

It wasn't a chore because you could set it up to do it for you

 

[DLPB]

I thought the game was awful to be honest. For me personally it has been one disaster after another since FFX-2. XII had a story masquerading as deep, when really it was basic and lackluster. What story there actually is, is usually just an excuse to get you from A to B. Character development is rock bottom. Only Balthier had any.

"I am a sky pirate"
"I am a princess"
"I am a baddie"
"Save me mario, I am in another castle"

is not good storytelling or good character development. Not surprising when the main dude in charge left during development of the game.

Story is one thing but this whole game is basic. The battle system is the most dumbed down useless thing I have ever seen (until FF13). Gambits are basically the player doing the programmer's job for them. When you can survive the whole game by 2 gambits and just mindlessly watch your characters fight without ANY input, you know there is a problem.

XII has 2 good things about it. 1. Music is half decent (not great like Uematsu though), and 2. Graphics.

The only reason FF12 got decent review scores imho is because of its name, because of graphics, and because most people lapped up the pseudo political nonsense it had to offer.

The ending dungeon was the icing on the cake. The very idea of going level by level hacking and slashing generic enemies (the computer did it all for you in this game) belongs in the 1980's. The narration by Penello at the end was an even bigger laugh. I await the day when FF games really are FF games again.

Here is hoping.

 

[Max Payne]

It wasn't a chore because you could set it up to do it for you

Well no shit, you can have the game do the leg work while you explore and search for items.

Any time I was looking just to level up, I'd set my gambits appropriately, and go to town, always making sure to keep an eye on them in case something went screwy, sure that happens less often outside of boss battles but I never found a gambit set that was completely infallible, and I like it that way.

So fuck your little smilie son.

Story is one thing but this whole game is basic. The battle system is the most dumbed down useless thing I have ever seen (until FF13). Gambits are basically the player doing the programmer's job for them. When you can survive the whole game by 2 gambits and just mindlessly watch your characters fight without ANY input, you know there is a problem.

This is complete horseshit, but seeing who it's coming from I don't even see the need to argue.

 

[DLPB]

Cheers, dacon. I always know I have won the debate when someone takes the argument to the person. So a nice thanks from me. Also, I did survive the whole game with 2 gambits (or near it). And I did watch as the game played itself. That is what happened. The game is dumbed down beyond belief.

I have seen games of Deal or No Deal which are more intellectually stimulating.

 

[Max Payne]

Cheers, dacon. I always know I have won the debate when someone takes the argument to the person. So a nice thanks from me. Also, I did survive the whole game with 2 gambits (or near it). And I did watch as the game played itself. That is what happened. The game is dumbed down beyond belief.

I'm sorry, but your irrational hate for something so much to the point where it's pretty much pointless to argue, wins you nothing.

The very statement that you "watched the game play itself" is a complete fallacy.

 

[Max Payne]

Hell, you don't even have the necessary amount of gambits for playing solely on autopilot for a huge chunk of the game, and leaving it to them for bosses and difficult foes is a really bad idea.

Especially if you're doing the hunts alongside the story events.

 

[DLPB]

Oh it is irrational again is it? Nothing to do with:

- A battle system which plays itself once you have set up a few measly programming terms called "Gambits.

- A story which could be written on the back of a postage stamp.

- Character development which makes Mario Bros. look like Shakespeare.

- Summons which just fight by themselves as you run around wondering what drug the game designers were on.

- Summons which are actually a liability as they take your MP to 0 and do next to nothing for you.

- Limit Break animations which go on forever and consist of the most basic inputs.

- Sound compression which gives Bayou Billy on the Megadrive a good name.

- Miniquests which revolve around yet more killing of random enemies with piddly awards

- Random treasure which is useless and makes chests useless.

- A deliberate ploy by the game developers to sucker the suckers into buying a strategy guide in order to get the best weapons. Opening certain "wrong chests" ends up making those weapons impossible to acquire (that tells me right there what they thought of the target audience).

- A really rubbish skill grid (it was nothing as advanced or engaging as X's sphere grid) that can make every player a basic generic carbon copy.

- Dungeons which are no fun at all and are all generic rubbish requiring no brain power (unlike say, cloister of trials)

That is what I think of it, take it or leave it but I am not gonna just lick the balls of this game because you and some others might get offended. I really don't understand anyone enjoying this game compared to VII-X and I never will.

 

[Max Payne]

- A battle system which plays itself once you have set up a few measly programming terms called "Gambits.

I've already pointed out my issues with this statement, most of the rest of the nonsense can be chalked up to personal opinion.

 

[DLPB]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvcr6YsPNWU

I don't see any interaction here, do you? And that's the first link which appeared. It isn't an opinion that FF12 battle system allows a person to sit back and not use the control pad during fights. In fact, it is possible to beat entire bosses and enemies without changing Gambits (and I frequently did). That, whichever way you want to present it, is a design flaw.

snsste
2 years ago

i&#65279; beat this boss while i was on the toilet lol i just left it to the gambits, i had bubble cast on party, berserk on reddas, protectaga and shellga on party, vaan had excalibur and bravery so he was kind of strong. i beat him in space of 2 mins

I need not say anything else.