The Good and The Bad of Final Fantasy XII

DLPB

Banned Flunky
AKA
Seifer Almasy, DanielReturns
Again, hyperbole! You know I mean "basic thinking" as opposed to "intelligent and immersed". you have to think about everything in life, even whether you want to push that 1 final dump out or wait 5 minutes before your sphincter makes you. (A bit like XII)

Anyway, I'm done :P so peace!
 

Max Payne

Banned
AKA
Leon S. Kennedy,Terry Bogard, The Dark Knight, Dacon, John Marston, Teal'c
I can only respond to what you say.
 

Tifabelle

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Tifabelle, Nathan Drake, Locke Cole, Kain Highwind, Yamcha, Arya Stark
I won't claim to be a fan of XII's battle system, but setting up the wrong gambits then not actively participating in battles seems like a quick way to die.

Personally, I only ever assigned my characters one or two gambits (boss battles maybe 3). Did the rest of the work by hand.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
So me, Forcestealer, Tres, Masamune, Tennyo, and the hundreds of others who played the game for days on end and enjoyed it didn't play it for ourselves?

I was saddened when I learned this, while reading your discussion with Daniel. Saddened ... and a little hurt. I felt ... used somehow. And not in the ways I like. Betrayed even.

I confronted my PS2 with what I'd discovered. I thought we could work it out. I'd not be accusatory. I'd just lay it all out there and see where it took us. We could get past this. I knew we could.

But I blew it.

"I know you played the game for me because you thought you were helping me," I said. "I understand that you were just trying to do something sweet. And it was. But why didn't you tell me? Why didn't you tell me all that time I spent in front of the TV was unnecessary?"

I should have kept my composure. Maybe things would have played out differently.

God, why did it have to be now? Right before Christmas. I'd planned to get us a new game to experience together, a new RPG experience at that, but ... all that's beside the point.

The point is I lost it. For that one second, I lost control of my tongue ... and I lost everything that mattered.

She was staring at me, speechless at her secret being discovered. Maybe it was looking at her guiltless expression that set me off, her little unchanging red light. She didn't even blink, not once. Or maybe it was her shock at being found out -- like she thought I was never going to figure it out. She must have taken me for such an idiot, I felt.

I just thought about it all again and my anger hardened. I felt like the people who run for the cure in the Marvel Universe would feel if they learned of the shittarded notion written into the Black Panther comics a few years ago that Wakanda had been sitting on the cure to cancer for years.

I felt like a fool, plain and simple, and I let her know it: "Why do you have to be such a manipulative bitch?" Right then, right there, I'd fucked up.

I knew it was over right away. The panic set in, but there was no going back once the words had left my mouth. I had no choice but to face the consequences. And face them I did. There was no escaping it if I'd tried.

I was assailed with what an inconsiderate dick I am. What an asshole I'd have to be to hold it against her like that. Yes, she'd mislead me, she acknowledged, but it was so that we could spend those 90+ hours together, my hands gently caressing her controller while she did all the hard work of tackling the Elder Wyrm, Judge Bergan, and -- as she put it -- "the entire fuckdamn Pharos Lighthouse."

"Fuck you, you fucking loser!" she said. "You couldn't have handled FFXII anyway. I did you a favor, you fucking little boy. I saved your already fragile ego from cracking when you realized how much you suck at RPGs. Fuck, at games in general."

You'd think this is as harsh as it would have gotten -- but no. It got much, much worse.

"You just fucking suck! I can name a half dozen girls right now I'd rather have pushing my fucking buttons, faggot. They could do a better job showing you what a real man looks like with his hands on a console. Go play with a fucking Genesis. At least then you can insert a Sega CD or a 32X, because that's the closest you're ever going to get to hitting the right spot on a piece of hardware!"

She threw one of her controllers at me then. Instinctively, I sprung back to dodge it, but fell onto the couch. She didn't hesitate to sling her other controller in my face.

Its smooth, jet black plastic struck me square upon the nose. The light glinting off it as it did, I felt I had been struck by a piece of obsidian. I yelled, more from surprise than pain, but her reaction was illuminating nonetheless.

She didn't even look back to see if I was hurt. She just no longer cared. She headed straight for the door, taking her power cord with her as she went.

She stood there a moment with the door open, staring out ahead. At a world that I wouldn't get to be part of with her. Before stepping through it, with her little red light still facing forward, away from me, away from all we'd shared, she uttered one final, painful remark: "By the way, I only pretended to like playing games on my side."

With that, the door slammed behind her and she was gone.

I sit here now, left only with my TV, my VHS player (what good my DVDs without her to play them?), and a bowl of ramen. Only those things, my playlist, and the wish that I didn't know now what I didn't know then.

If you'll excuse me now. I'm sorry. I have to go. I just -- I'm sorry. I have to go.



 
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Max Payne

Banned
AKA
Leon S. Kennedy,Terry Bogard, The Dark Knight, Dacon, John Marston, Teal'c
1276586100123.png
 

Splintered

unsavory tart
I won't claim to be a fan of XII's battle system, but setting up the wrong gambits then not actively participating in battles seems like a quick way to die.

Personally, I only ever assigned my characters one or two gambits (boss battles maybe 3). Did the rest of the work by hand.
That's what I got out of it.

Normal battles can be played out for you, but normal battles in most Final Fantasies are pretty much "press x and profit." In some battles, setting the right gambits and actively keeping up with the enemy is a must. I died on at least one boss because I didn't set up the right plan.

But I always had most of my gambits filled, and I constantly shifted them around because I changed parties often. Can't tell you much I loved automatically putting haste and decoy on my party members.
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
I admit I found it stupid that you had to buy the gambit parameters. They weren't expensive...but still, why? I already had to buy every piece of equipment twice (once on the license board, once for real), throw me a bone, game.
 

Max Payne

Banned
AKA
Leon S. Kennedy,Terry Bogard, The Dark Knight, Dacon, John Marston, Teal'c
FFXII literally makes almost nothing easy.
 

Splintered

unsavory tart
I think the issue I had most with it is deciding when and the timing of using quickening chains.

Unless they were status buffers or healing, I only ever manually used magic in dire situations because I never wanted to waste my mp. MP conservation is one of the really big reasons you've got to constantly check your party rather than just putting everything on your gambits because of how valuable it is.

You could also summon. But summons were useless.
 

Max Payne

Banned
AKA
Leon S. Kennedy,Terry Bogard, The Dark Knight, Dacon, John Marston, Teal'c
I think the issue I had most with it is deciding when and the timing of using quickening chains.

Unless they were status buffers or healing, I only ever manually used magic in dire situations because I never wanted to waste my mp. MP conservation is one of the really big reasons you've got to constantly check your party rather than just putting everything on your gambits because of how valuable it is.

You could also summon. But summons were useless.

I always used quickenings after I'd already weakened enemies substantially.

Summons weren't useless, but I can definitely see how people could think it's more trouble getting them to be powerful and useful in battle than it's worth.
 
Normal battles can be played out for you, but normal battles in most Final Fantasies are pretty much "press x and profit."

Exactly. 12 just decided to have this part be a bit smoother and less boring. Even then, I had regular enemies that couldn't be killed by gambits alone. The game's pace was also refreshing for an RPG. You have to move fast, whether your gambits are being set off or you are choosing the moves manually. Which is why the gambits were a great idea, so you didn't have to worry about the little things.

Heal when party member is less than 20% in health... <333
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
The ease of grinding though was kinda countered by the fact that it required a good bit more than other recent entries. At least that was the impression I got.
 

Sprites

Waiting for something
AKA
Gems
FFXII for me, well I just didn't finish it, I got bored about half way through. The game just wasn't fun for me, I dunno why but it just didn't feel right.

Storywise I got bored, the characters annoyed me, the music really wasn't that special although it was visually beautiful to look at.

The gambit system, while I can see positives in it, like being healed, using magic etc when certain events happen during battle and like people have said not having to worry about the little things, I just didn't enjoy it, the whole setting of it and that I found it complicated when going through a battle without using them.

The license grid was nonsense and irritating and felt almost like a poor version of FFX's sphere grid. I'm serious, when I first played XII and started using the license my brother asked what it was like and that was my response.

Yeah, as you can see FFXII was not one of my favourite games. I know a lot of people will disagree and probbaly think I'm talking crap because I didn't complete it and what not but honestly I wouldn't even want to complete it if I wasn't getting enjoyment out of it. Myabe one day I'll pick it up and play it again and hope I could see things differently but right now that won't happen anytime soon :)
 

Joe

I KEEP MY IDEALS
AKA
Joe, Arcana
I enjoyed playing through FFXII. The characters perhaps could have done with a bit of work for one thing, the only ones I really liked were Fran, Balthier and Basch (of the playable ones). The game was pretty to look at and, unlike its successor, actually felt like a Final Fantasy game.

Funnily enough, the license grid was something I really about this game. I don't know why specifically, but I guess it felt a lot like you had more choice in the way your characters fought in comparison to other games. It also allowed me to attach my favourite kinds of weapons to my favourite characters, which is something you don't get often.

I used the gambit system a little bit. While I felt at first it may be a little like cheating, I soon realised that whilst playing the game in real-time mode it was difficult to keep up with the combat without a few gambits in place. This was perfect in my opinion as using the gambits was not compulsorary, it allowed less experienced players the opportunity to fully enjoy the game, while the difficulty without them provided a challenge to the more competitive players.

The game had enough side-missions to keep me interested, which is something I do enjoy playing through.

All in all it was a good game for me. Sure it wasn't the perfect model of a FF game, but times are changing.
 

Wiegraf

White Knight
AKA
Thamauturge (IMDb and Gamefaqs), Haeralis, Haeralis the Brave, Wiegraf, and JudgeMagisterDelita

The main characters Vaan and Penelo were a complete bore


Maybe that's because they weren't the main characters


the storyline was a dry as sandpaper


Uh, what? The lore of Ivalice and everything that goes on is what makes those games so special. The characters were a welcome change from the romance and sci fi storylines (which I do enjoy sometimes, like FFVII, btw) it was just nice to see a medieval type storyline again. Similar to FFIX.

and the battle system was a horrible change to the FF series.


The Final Fantasy series NEEDED change. I know that I wouldn't want to play the same thing over and over again. FFXII's system was creative and innovative. If you didn't like the gambits, than it isn't hard to turn them off.

[The only good thing about FF XII was Larsa. He was a kindhearted leader and a well-developed character, unlike the rest of the characters who were like card board cut outs.


Oh really? So, Vayne was something that we have seen before? We have seen a villain in Final Fantasy who is attempting to dominate the world for the sake of doing the right thing? We have seen a character like Balthier before? Like Basch? Like Gabranth?


The music wasn't that great either, it had nothing special about it like the other Final Fantasies, it was just sound in the background.


Theme of the Empire
Destiny
The Battle For Freedom
Boss Battle

Sorrow Imperial Version
Fight to the Death,
Dalmasca Westersand
Final Fantasy (best mix of the song IMO)
Victory Fanfare FFXII Version (my favorite fanfare remix)
Seeking Power
Phon Coast
White Room
To The Place of the Gods


Sakimoto is an amazing composer whose work is always great. It was nice to hear a good soundtrack after the let down of FFX. I swear the only reason people say that that has a good soundtrack is because of To Zanarkand. The rest was almost always horribad. Sakimoto has never let me down. I enjoy his compositions more than Nobuo's, even if Nobuo is usually great. But his FFX soundtrack was a lowpoint for him, in my opinion.


There's Nothing magical or special about XII at all.

Oh, well okay... you sure changed my opinion on the matter with that ridiculous assertion.

You may be welcome to your opinion, but I get the feeling that you didn't even play the same Final Fantasy XII that I did.


The few problems that I did have with FFXII are all fixed in the Zodiac Job System version. Now, Summons and Guests are controllable (the former being the most useful since you can use their ultimate attacks anytime you want), there is no damage limit, Mist Quickenings and Summons don't use MP. It has their own bar that is used instead of MP. Much better IMO. Also, ZJS has a one pick only job. There is no clones of each other unless you choose to give everyone the same job (which, btw is moronic considering the choices).

I do hate how it is one pick only. It also has Trial Mode, New Game + and loads of other awesome stuff. Good thing there is an english patch for it. You can even see what EVERY thing on the license board is before you unlock it.
 
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The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Sakimoto is an amazing composer whose work is always great. It was nice to hear a good soundtrack after the let down of FFX. I swear the only reason people say that that has a good soundtrack is because of To Zanarkand. The rest was almost always horribad. Sakimoto has never let me down. I enjoy his compositions more than Nobuo's, even if Nobuo is usually great. But his FFX soundtrack was a lowpoint for him, in my opinion.

Uematsu wasn't really the primary composer for FFX. He did some of it, while Mashashi Hamazu and Junya Nakano did the rest.

Total disagreement about the quality of FFX's soundtrack, by the way (I'd place it in the top three), but I do agree that Hitoshi Sakimoto is awesome.
 

Tetsujin

he/they
AKA
Tets
Uematsu wasn't really the primary composer for FFX. He did some of it, while Mashashi Hamazu and Junya Nakano did the rest.

Ehh, Uematsu is about half of the soundtrack, while Nakano and Hamauzu have about a fourth each. :P
 

Tifabelle

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Tifabelle, Nathan Drake, Locke Cole, Kain Highwind, Yamcha, Arya Stark
The Final Fantasy series NEEDED change. I know that I wouldn't want to play the same thing over and over again. FFXII's system was creative and innovative. If you didn't like the gambits, than it isn't hard to turn them off.

I wouldn't disagree that the battle system needed a change, but personally I wasn't a fan of XII's. I didn't hate it, but I didn't like it either. Just out of curiosity, what did you think of XIII's (if you played)? I loved it. I think XIII took the good things from XII and added some of its own unique elements. Also, they learned from the mistakes of XII and improved upon it (re: gambits and enemies in the field rather than random battles). I think without XII's battle system, XIII's wouldn't have been as good.
 

Masamune

Fiat Lux
AKA
Masa
I love how people always target Vaan and Penelo to criticize FFXII's characterisation and completely skip over all the other captivating characters who appear in FFXII - Basch, Balthier, Fran, Gabranth, Vayne, Dr. Cid, Larsa, Reddas, Drace, etc. But no, let's just focus on the two street-rats who are quite clearly there to play Everyman.
 

Tifabelle

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Tifabelle, Nathan Drake, Locke Cole, Kain Highwind, Yamcha, Arya Stark
I love how people always target Vaan and Penelo to criticize FFXII's characterisation and completely skip over all the other captivating characters who appear in FFXII - Basch, Balthier, Fran, Gabranth, Vayne, Dr. Cid, Larsa, Reddas, Drace, etc. But no, let's just focus on the two street-rats who are quite clearly there to play Everyman.

In all fairness though, Vaan was the main character. So he's supposed to be more important. They kind of missed something there, and it's more glaring bc he's the main playable so it feels like he should have more of a role. But yea, Balthier is one of the best FF characters. Cid's first time being a villian was successful.
 

Masamune

Fiat Lux
AKA
Masa
Who says Vaan is the main character? He might be the playable character but that doesn't mean he's the main player in the grand scheme of things. Like I said, he's there to give the player a foothold into the game's setting, not much different than Link from LoZ.

Vaan starts out as a helpless urchin who wishes he could escape from the shackles of the Empire, gets swept up in Ashe's rebellion, and come the end he finds peace with his brother's death. I'm not saying Vaan went through any great examination but they didn't just toss him aside.
 

Tifabelle

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Tifabelle, Nathan Drake, Locke Cole, Kain Highwind, Yamcha, Arya Stark
Vaan is the main character of FFXII. That's how it's set up. I know you can change the leader of the party, but Vaan's still the main guy. Dat's why he in Dissidia, no? And as far as coming to terms with his brother's death, he does that about ten minutes into the game. I know he has business with the Empire, but it gives the feeling of tagging along, rather than being the driving force of the mission. I think because Vaan is conceptually the main character, he's held to a higher standard that he just doesn't reach.
 

Wiegraf

White Knight
AKA
Thamauturge (IMDb and Gamefaqs), Haeralis, Haeralis the Brave, Wiegraf, and JudgeMagisterDelita
In all fairness though, Vaan was the main character.

No, he really isn't. The main character IS who the story revolves around. This is Ashe, Basch and Balthier. Vaan IS important though, only in a different way. He is the perspective character. The one who is supposed to be who we can relate to. In this way he is a huge success since we know as much as he does about the non-Rabanastre Ivalice. The rest of the cast taught him things which were necessary for us to know.

Without Vaan, Ashe would not have done what she did to save the common people like Vaan.

Vaan is the main character of Revenant Wings though.

I wouldn't disagree that the battle system needed a change, but personally I wasn't a fan of XII's.

Understandable. It is all opinion to be honest. But due to your complaints about the gameplay... I HIGHLY recommend that you play the Zodiac Job System version. There is an English Patch out now so there will be no language barrier. As I have said before, ZJS made Summons very useful, fixes ALL of your qualms about the license board, and overall makes for a much better experience. I highly recommend it.
 
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Tifabelle

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Tifabelle, Nathan Drake, Locke Cole, Kain Highwind, Yamcha, Arya Stark
I get what you guys are saying about "main character" and the story revolving around them. Maybe that's where Vaan fails. He certainly doesn't seem important. In fact, it feels as if the game could very well carry on without him. His purpose is gone within the first third of the game (or so, idk). That's a terrile perspective character to have, imo. It detaches the player from the experience, I think.

Tidus is a prime example of a perspective character. EVERYTHING needs to be explained to him. And the journey is all Yuna's journey. So why doesn't Tidus fail in the way that Vaan does? (Tidus is the best example I can come up with, atm, but maybe there's a better one?)
 
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