The Good and The Bad of Final Fantasy XII

[Max Payne]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvcr6YsPNWU

I don't see any interaction here, do you? And that's the first link which appeared. It isn't an opinion that FF12 battle system allows a person to sit back and not use the control pad during fights. In fact, it is possible to beat entire bosses and enemies without changing Gambits. That, whichever way you want to present it, is a design flaw.

One fight where the player managed to go without having to issue any commands? HOLY SHIT THIS ENTIRE GAME IS ON AUTOPILOT. Give me a break, and the player was clearly using the control pad to reposition.

It most definitely IS an opinion that the goddamn game plays itself. The gambits are not infallible, and during fights, especially the more difficult, characters can get stuck quoing up the wrong actions for the situation and it will lead to disaster. It happens OFTEN. Hell, sure you can beat the weaker bosses with a really good gambit set alone, but things can still go wrong, and you definitely have to watch and take action when needed.

I can't even remember how many times an elemental would destroy my party just by passing by, or when a more powerful monster would stray into the fight and fuck everything up, when I decided to leave everything to gambits.

Like I said, this isn't even an option for a heavy portion of the game, where many gambits vital to that kind of playing strategy aren't even available.

The statement that "the game plays itself" is a complete fallacy.

 

[DLPB]

The statement that "the game plays itself" is a complete fallacy.

Ok then , as you wish.

The game plays itself, nearly all the time. While we are at it, that was just 1 link, I could find you 1000! I know myself how the game played, because I played it. I know that I spent 90% of the game moving forward and watching as my party killed enemies without any interaction, sometimes for very large periods of time (as in hundreds of enemies).

 

[Max Payne]

The statement that "the game plays itself" is a complete fallacy.

Ok then , as you wish.

The game plays itself, nearly all the time. While we are at it, that was just 1 link, I could find you 1000! I know myself how the game played, because I played it. I know that I spent 90% of the game moving forward and watching as my party killed enemies without any interaction, sometimes for very large periods of time.

Yeah, that's complete bullshit.

This is why it's pointless to argue. I have, well HAD the collectors edition of the game and clocked over 170 hours in the game, I know for a fact that this isn't true.

Maybe I didn't go to retarded lengths to get the edge over my enemies in boss fights, but all decisive battles and confrontations had a direct influence from my actions.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Gotta agree with Dacon here. I had a few issues with FFXII's battle system, and I wasn't the biggest fan of Gambits, but to state the 'game plays itself' and leaving it at that is a fallacy.

Also, structuring an argument around;

"THE GAME PLAYS ITSELF"
*logical argument*
"NO IT REALLY DOES"
*logical argument*
"NO GUYS I SWEAR IT DOES REALLY"

etc isn't the way to go, Daniel.

 

[Max Payne]

Also, I can pull up 1000 youtube videos of people taking an active part in battles in the game if I wanted to.

Does that make an argument for me? no.

 

[Tetsujin]

Game didn't play itself for me when I finished it earlier this year. Grinding was still a chore though. Maybe slightly less of a chore but I'm still waiting for RPG developers to realise that grinding isn't fun, was never fun, will never be fun.

 

[Masamune]

'Grinding' is an absolute breeze in FFXII. Before I knew it, I'd spent hours grinding away and I was none the wiser. Unlike previous FF instalments, where you find yourself running around in a circle waiting for another random-battle transition, fight ensues, fanfare, exp gain, rinse repeat. Such a drag...

Programming the game to take care of the basics for you is just common sense. It would be completely redundant to manually select 'Attack' when you're wading through a bunch of giant bullfrogs, or whatever the hell you're fighting. Ironically, I think FFXII's battle system could be the most engaging of all.

 

[DLPB]

Also, I can pull up 1000 youtube videos of people taking an active part in battles in the game if I wanted to.

Does that make an argument for me? no.

The question was whether the game could play itself. If it was possible to. If you find me a few links where there is lots of interaction it does not negate the flaw, or my original argument that a lot of the whole game CAN be played without any interaction.

-The game plays itself. Here is a boss being defeated without the control pad being touched.
- I can find someone playing that boss where they do interact.
- Does not change the fact that the game can play itself.

That 1 link already shows 1 boss being defeated without the person touching the control pad. It also has someone laughing that he defeated it whilst he was on the toilet. I also KNOW myself that I spent large amounts of time going through hundreds of enemies without ANY interaction. I don't quite see how it is a fallacy that the game can play itself when I HAVE JUST PROVEN IT. And when I can prove it with another ton of links and walk throughs. I guess, I am not gonna get anywhere, you will believe what you want to, to hell with facts gettin' in the way

 

[Max Payne]

The question was whether the game could play itself. If it was possible to. If you find me a few links where there is lots of interaction it does not negate the flaw, or my original argument that a lot of the whole game CAN be played without any interaction.

No, there was never any question, you made a retarded blanket statement, and I told you how you were wrong. It was never about whether you "can".

You can automate a few weak bosses just like you can breeze through some of the weaker enemies with gambits, THIS DOES NOT MEAN THE DAMN GAME PLAYS ITSELF. You are being intentionally daft. I've stated repeatedly that you cannot breeze through the entire game on gambits alone, I've state why and how this can't be done, but still you carry on as bullheadedly as possible.

Talking to you is pointless.

 

[DLPB]

I think you know full well I was using hyperbole to some extent (I will revise it to "A huge amount of the game can be played without any interaction at all and this is a massive flaw"); trying to get around the argument by attacking my wording (because it wasn't flawless), simply isn't gonna wash

So I will leave you with a nice review someone has written which sums it up for me:

http://uk.gamespot.com/ps2/rpg/finalfantasy12/player_review.html?id=686589&tag=player-reviews%3Bcontinue%3B6

However, by removing continual user input from the game and replacing it with the Gambit system, the player simply guides his characters around and watches the battle unfold with little to no involvement. It sounds wonderfully efficient, sure, if you're making coffee. But removing player input from the game makes the player an observer, not a participant.

The cinematics that FFVII introduced, while beautiful, where criticized for being too long and overdrawn. Gamers complained that they watched the game as much as they played the game. Now, imagine that you no longer have to input any command in combat. Not only do you watch the game during cinematics, you also watch the game in combat!

In conclusion, although Final Fantasy XII is an artfully presented game from Squaresoft, its combat system, which is the meat of the game, is woefully boring. The game, in an attempt to streamline combat and make continuous mob farming rewarding, actually does the opposite of what it intended and delivers a game that robs the player of decision-making and makes it painfully obvious to him that he will be repeating the same series of actions for the next sixty hours of his life. The only solace he can find is that he can program those actions in advance in a new-fangled Gambit system, so all he has to do is watch his life wither away.

I don't know what game you were playing, but it can't be the same one we were, dacon.

 

[Max Payne]

Oh wow, a review echoing the same bs statements you yourself made with no real concrete defense of those statements.

EGADS I AM DEFEATED,.

I think you know full well I was using hyperbole to some extent (I will revise it to "A huge amount of the game can be played without any interaction at all and this is a massive flaw"); trying to get around the argument by attacking my wording (because it wasn't flawless), simply isn't gonna wash

Revising your statement to one that's just as factually incorrect "isn't gonna wash". I've already stated how wrong such a comment is.

Also, a deliberate choice in game design that allows for more options and plotting of character AI does not a design flaw make. You can call it that if you want, but it's just another poorly thought out opinion.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

"I am a sky pirate"
"I am a princess"
"I am a baddie"
"Save me mario, I am in another castle"

is not good storytelling or good character development. Not surprising when the main dude in charge left during development of the game.

To be fair, Matsuno didn't completely abandon the project, and he was in charge as director until sometime in 2005 -- on a game released in March of the next year, and in development since at least mid-2001.

So unless the programmers spent four years randomly programming stuff, the story should have been completed long before Matsuno had to step down. As well, he's still the one who received the "Story & Concept" credit for the game, so it's fair to say he had a big hand in it.

A really rubbish skill grid (it was nothing as advanced or engaging as X's sphere grid) that can make every player a basic generic carbon copy.

So can X's Sphere Grid, man -- or VII's materia system, or VIII's Junction system for that matter. That's not a reasonable thing to hold against XII when you're making statements like "I really don't understand anyone enjoying this game compared to VII-X and I never will."

Of course, I favor all of those except IX to XII for various reasons, but I still think it's a great game. Not the best FF has to offer, maybe, but that's in a series that consists of a lot of superb titles.

- Random treasure which is useless and makes chests useless.

- A deliberate ploy by the game developers to sucker the suckers into buying a strategy guide in order to get the best weapons. Opening certain "wrong chests" ends up making those weapons impossible to acquire (that tells me right there what they thought of the target audience).

This is a fair gripe, though, as was your complaint about the summons. They really sucked in this game.

The only reason FF12 got decent review scores imho is because of its name, because of graphics, and because most people lapped up the pseudo political nonsense it had to offer.

Opinions are pretty unimportant in discussing that, as it's easy enough to check in their own words why reviewers gave the game the scores they did:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Fantasy_XII#Reception
http://www.metacritic.com/game/playstation-2/final-fantasy-xii
http://www.gamerankings.com/ps2/459841-final-fantasy-xii/articles.html

Most did like the battle system.

The review scores were not "decent," by the way -- they were really high.

It is notable, though, I think, that the first link I gave mentions the game's executive producer agreed that the story wasn't as strong as it should have been.

The ending dungeon was the icing on the cake.

This is why you should look at the Pharos Lighthouse as the final dungeon, the same way one would look at the Black Omen -- not Inside Lavos -- as the final dungeon for Chrono Trigger. That's the only sensible way to look at it considering you can go straight to Sky Fortress Bahamut afterward and that you spend a really long time there.

As we discussed in Force's thread on the final dungeons of the FF series, you wouldn't call Crystal World the final dungeon of FFIX -- you'd say Memoria.


There's certainly gripes that can be leveled at FFXII, but let's keep them in the realm of facts and away from double standards.

 

[ForceStealer]

My problem with the License Grid wasn't that you could make the characters the same, just that, because you couldn't see where you were headed unless another character had already traveled it, it kind of encouraged same-ness. Exactly as Tres said, Materia and Junction (especially Junction) also allowed for carbon-copy characters. The Sphere Grid too, to an extent, you'd really have to work at it though. I've just never been able to think of any reason why you have to traverse the License Grid blind.

But I've beaten this deceased equine before.

Oh, and I know I can't totally speak to the story not having finished it, but the political intrigue story is perfectly fine. I just wish I could muster up more care for the characters, its a good story but I felt detached from it.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I agree about the story, Force. I feel like Tactics did the politics thing with more nuance (it was easy to keep up with what was going on in the large scheme of things in XII the whole time, despite the political backdrop), though XII didn't do it poorly.

 

[Zee]

My problem with the License Grid wasn't that you could make the characters the same, just that, because you couldn't see where you were headed unless another character had already traveled it, it kind of encouraged same-ness.

Ugh, this. I actually dug the idea of the license board, but I liked to save up a bunch of LP and it was frustrating that I would build (let's say) a character with staffs > staffs > staffs > BOMBS LOL

Without a guide it was pretty irritating to get through, and wasted points led to more grinding for points.

I just wish I could muster up more care for the characters, its a good story but I felt detached from it.

Also this. They really didn't even need some of the characters there at all. FFXII has a great worldbuild, I just wish I gave a damn about the people in it.

this reminds me that i should stop stalling and beat this fucking game already


but then i get distracted and play fallout

 

[ForceStealer]

Though I still haven't beaten it, I got much further and enjoyed it much more once I kept a printout of the license board next to me. It's just...an odd design choice to keep it hidden, I'd love to ask what their thought-process was behind it.

 

[Tifabelle]

Going in blind on the license grid is a ridiculous expectation. No one randomly builds their characters! It's all generally planned out beforehand. Not just in Final Fantasy, but ALL games. They take away one of the major factors of gaming. Without the guide (or a pic of the completed board), it's all random. Then you get the license but you can't use it cause you have to purchase the item, haha! WTF. So like Zee says, you grind for points to find out that you have to grind for more points bc you made a wrong turn, then grind for loot that you can go and sell so you can get gil to buy shit, assuming you know where the damn license is to use it. Rantity rant rant.

The board isn't a bad idea necessarily, just poorly executed.

They really didn't even need some of the characters there at all. FFXII has a great worldbuild, I just wish I gave a damn about the people in it.

Vaan! It's hard to care about him when he's not even integral to the story. And we, as the players, are supposed to connect with the world/story through him!

 

[DLPB]

Well that is my problem Ariadne, when you take away the fun of Summons, take away a lot of the battle control, take away chests having any real meaning, what is there left to enjoy with the gameplay? And since the battle system is a MAJOR component of ANY RPG.... it is already a 2/10 game for me.

The couple that to the story which I felt was basic and the character development which we all seem to agree was basic... and how can I possibly justify anything more than 4 out of 10? More to the point, how on earth did the game achieve a 9/10 and 10/10 score by the main critics (not users)?

 

[Max Payne]

The game doesn't take control of the battle away at all. In fact it gives you complete control of it. The gambit system lets you dictate every action a character takes in several situations. Failing that, you can always issue commands manually.

You can indeed play the game with a minimum amount of gambits. If you think you don't have enough control, don't employ so many gambits. Hell some folks manage playthroughs WITHOUT gambits. They are by no means forcing you to use them to a ridiculous degree.

 

[DLPB]

Failing that, you can always issue commands manually.
--------

That is a common get out clause I have heard with this game, but just try doing that and see where it gets you, The number of battles and the areas make it clear that gambits are the intended purpose. I am not getting back into the gambit thing, I know myself how I played the game and it was boring and idiotic and easy. It was mind numbingly simple and dumbed down.

It is also a design fault to include things which are not needed or intended. Seriously Dacon, when you see review after review and criticism after criticism aimed at the SAME THING in the battle system, do you not think for 1 second that there might be SOMETHING in it?

 

[Max Payne]

That is a common get out clause I have heard with this game, but just try doing that and see where it gets you, The number of battles and the areas make it clear that gambits are the intended purpose. I am not getting back into the gambit thing, I know myself how I played the game and it was boring and idiotic and easy. It was mind numbingly simple and dumbed down.

The whole point of the system is freedom. It has fuck all to do with "getting out". Lol game being boring and idiotic, not to mention easy. Just fucking lol.

Oh look, an entire boss fight with no gambits(with one PC at that), IMPOSSIBLEE SACRE BLEU

Playing like this takes a lot of skill, but in my few attempts it was pretty fun and really got my blood rushing.

It is also a design fault to include things which are not needed or intended. Seriously Dacon, when you see review after review and criticism after criticism aimed at the SAME THING in the battle system, do you not think for 1 second that there might be SOMETHING in it?

The system is designed to give the player freedom to play the game how they want, with or without heavy use of gambits. A design flaw is a strutural weakness that causes an entire system to fail. An intentional option being left in a game, which was tested, and experimented with to a heavy degree is not a design flaw.

Seriously DR, when there's dozens upon dozens of reviews citing the exact opposite of what you're are claiming to be, do you not think for one second your opinion is not the unabashed truth?

 

[DLPB]

No cause i played it and saw it with my own eyes and so did they. FFXII will be a memory in 10 years, most people will never go back to it, because it lives for now only on dying hype. When you can traverse entire areas without touching the control pad (and where disabling this option becomes a massive chore), that isn't a good thing. And yes that is what happened to me and those in the reviews.

Trying to make an online multiplaying system work on a 1 player game is probably the most deluded idea anyone from FF team has ever come up with imho. But we are goin' round in circles, so I will leave and FF12 will die

 

[Max Payne]

So me, Forcestealer, Tres, Masamune, Tennyo, and the hundreds of others who played the game for days on end and enjoyed it didn't play it for ourselves?

 

[DLPB]

So me, Forcestealer, Tres, Masamune, Tennyo, and the hundreds of others who played the game for days on end and enjoyed it didn't play it for ourselves?

Whatever you played, it cannot be the same game I did, because the mistakes and flaws in that battle system do exist and that isn't an opinion.

What is an opinion is whether you liked it. If you did, fair play. I didn't. I like a battle system that requires me to think outside of tiny commands called gambits which then are executed by a GOD DAMN AI (as in not the player) in BATCH for HUNDREDS of battles at a time .

Only exceeded by XIII which goes 1 step further and forces 2 AI characters on you. But not even that system can beat the snoozer that is XII.

 

[Max Payne]

Whatever you played, it cannot be the same game I did, because the mistakes and flaws in that battle system do exist and that isn't an opinion.

They most certainly are when those so called facts are wrong, and can be disputed.

What is an opinion is whether you liked it. If you did, fair play. I didn't. I like a battle system that requires me to think outside of tiny commands called gambits which then are executed by a GOD DAMN AI (as in not the player) in BATCH for HUNDREDS of battles at a time .

This is complete bullshit. You can't use gambits WITHOUT thinking. The very act of finding a working set of gambits that accommodate different bosses is an act of strategic planning. Hell, until you get close to endgame it's almost impossible to find a set of gambits that works for every enemy and boss that requires little input from players.

Fuck sake man, it's like you are being deliberately obtuse.