The Love Triangle Debate: Another Turn in the Cycle

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billy22

billy22

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So if Cloud loved both girls and we know that he ends up in a relationship with Tifa, wouldn't the question be better framed as "Who would Cloud have chosen to be with had both girls lived?" Since that would indicate his preference between the two. I think it could also be applied with Aerith as to whom she would have chosen between Zack and Cloud had that been an option for her. These are just a theoretical questions though. Kind of fun to think about I guess.
 
Goodbye Charlie

Goodbye Charlie

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Incredible, it's been ten years since I was engrossed in this debate, and it still goes on - albeit somewhat friendlier and more as conversation than debate (LTC?). I've been reading some of the Lifestream editorial material and it is incredible. Those who think this is a daft subject are right, but stuff that is daft means something, and for a topic to have had this intensity and coverage for so long says a lot about people and culture. The level of research provided by Lifestream is stunning, truly, stunning. I can't wait for the remake to re-open closed wounds and propel the LTC (by then LTD once more) to new levels.
 
Goodbye Charlie

Goodbye Charlie

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LicoriceAllsorts said:
You're right. I think it's really a debate about the very nature of love itself, which is a tale as old as time,
Ever just the same
Ever a surprise
Ever as before and ever just as sure as the sun will rise...
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Love in many forms. Obviously guilt is a powerful form of attachment, and thereby love. And love in itself can be about escape or safety; the thrill of fresh or something comforting. And obviously, identity, for without a certainty of who you are, you cannot truly love someone else.

For me, the LTD has always been more than that. Never been a shipper, but fascinated about how narrative and game mechanics can function in syncronicity and in opposition. The date mechanic creates individual tales within a setpiece. The variance clouds a narrative and explores it. LTD is all about these things. No wonder it has lasted so long.
 
Enthralll

Enthralll

Lv. 1 Adventurer
What's even to debate? It's obvious, at least to me, he liked both. How much he leaned toward one or the other being up to the player but it never being possible for him to not care at all for one. And I think Square's route will always be to keep everything that follows a little obfuscated so people can decide where his heart "really really lies" among themselves for all time.
 
Grease

Grease

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Aerith. i've read Nojima stated they were lovers. and AC cloud's feelings guilt over Aerith's death. It's romantic. he basically wanted to give up on living. a lot of their cameos in other games as well points to aerith being the one cloud loves.
 
A

a_apple

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orange
Grease said:
Aerith. i've read Nojima stated they were lovers. and AC cloud's feelings guilt over Aerith's death. It's romantic. he basically wanted to give up on living. a lot of their cameos in other games as well points to aerith being the one cloud loves.
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Even if you think that, how is it possible to play vii and watch AC/CC and not realize that he had feelings for both girls?
 
Dashell

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i've read Nojima stated they were lovers.
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He didn't, there you go :monster:

BUT yeah I totally agree Cloud loved both girls. He clearly had feelings for both. Cloud has had appearances with both girls in many spinoff games so I don't really count those as proof of FFVII stuff. It's just fun fan service and if anything, it points toward him loving both. Most people's opinions that he just loves one or the other usually depends on how they played the game :monster:
 
fancy

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Grease said:
AC cloud's feelings guilt over Aerith's death
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Fam, you are forgetting about Zack.

This argument has always gotten under my skin because it is a total erasure of Zack and all that he meant to Cloud. Aerith wasn't the only 'ghost' who appeared in the doorway of the church as Cloud was giving his last goodbye, eh? He loved Zack, too, dammit, and that's canon. I know this because when I tried to dispute that claim, I got smacked with the Word of God in which states that Zack and Cloud are best friends. :wackymonster:
 
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a_apple

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fancy said:
Fam, you are forgetting about Zack.

This argument has always gotten under my skin because it is a total erasure of Zack and all that he meant to Cloud. Aerith wasn't the only 'ghost' who appeared in the doorway of the church as Cloud was giving his last goodbye, eh? He loved Zack, too, dammit, and that's canon. I know this because when I tried to dispute that claim, I got smacked with the Word of God in which states that Zack and Cloud are best friends. :wackymonster:
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Yeah, I also agree with this. Clouds actions in AC aren't about love but survivor guilt.
(also sorry for the double post :mon:)
 
C

Clement Rage

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Square will keep it ambiguous because shippers buy merch.

It's a tricky one, because all three of them are figuring things out in the game. Cloud's not in his right mind, and both Aeris and Tifa pick up on that, they spend their time trying to figure out what's up with him.

In AC, I think Cloud would feel guilty about anyone who he feels died because of him.
 
fancy

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Clement Rage said:
In AC, I think Cloud would feel guilty about anyone who he feels died because of him.
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That's exactly it. Cloud has a lot of love to give. "There's not a thing I don't cherish." etc. The singularity of some of these shipper arguments bugs me cuz Cloud has proven time and time again that he actually cares a lot about those whom he considers to be friends and family, and even folks beyond that circle. His mind isn't honed in on a single person, whether it be Aerith or Tifa. Thus, I don't understand why it's so unfathomable for some folks to imagine him loving more than one person lmao. Like, I just don't see Cloud being the type of person to obsess over a single someone, rather, he gets fixated on becoming a certain type of person for everyone whom he respects, loves, or wants to gain favour with imo. Like, sure he called out Tifa specifically to announce his plans to go to Midgar, but he wanted to show up as this badass hero for the entire town to see eh?
 
Dashell

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To clarify something I said, Im fully aware of Case of Lifestream white calling Cloud Aerith's lover, but I dont consider that, "A statement from Nojima." Else another statement from Nojima is that the world was to be Sephiroth's rule. It was the narrator who said it, and Nojima has actually stated that the feelings in those stories are not his own.



Im not saying I disagree with the statement, Cloud and Aerith flirted and had something between them, but "Cloud was the woman's friend and lover" was NOT a statement from Nojima.
 
looneymoon

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the creators clearly intentionally view both relationships through a romantic lens, i think it's really obtuse to claim otherwise. depictions of the characters in other games totally counts in this regard, imo. doesn't take away from the fact that cloud and tifa end up together in the ff7 story tho.

back in the old days, people on either side of the discussion would bend over backwards to claim there no credibility to the other side which was just... embarrassing, even then lmfao.
 
A

a_apple

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Clement Rage said:
Square will keep it ambiguous because shippers buy merch.

It's a tricky one, because all three of them are figuring things out in the game. Cloud's not in his right mind, and both Aeris and Tifa pick up on that, they spend their time trying to figure out what's up with him.

In AC, I think Cloud would feel guilty about anyone who he feels died because of him.
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I think the only time SE keeps things ambiguous between Cloud/Aerith/Tifa is third party related. Like Valentine events or other festivals SE celebrates to shill some merch:mon: since both girls were a romantic option (at least at some point) in the game. However I do think that FF7 itself is rather straight forward with the fact that Cloud and Tifa end up together even more so if you take AC/CC into account. I also get the feeling that the Remake will hammer Cloud/Tifa and Aeris/Zack home to us. Just because they both became so insanely popular parings:mon:
 
Ite

Ite

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It’s very clear that they intended both characters to be love interests for Cloud — and the player, who takes the role of Cloud. Like one lady, like both? Ride or die Clo/Vincent, the story is your creation. Not interested? There’s plenty of great story that doesn’t involve romance. AC shows Cloud and Tifa as partners. And co-parents. Make of that what you will.
 
Enthralll

Enthralll

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Dashell said:
He didn't, there you go :monster:

BUT yeah I totally agree Cloud loved both girls. He clearly had feelings for both. Cloud has had appearances with both girls in many spinoff games so I don't really count those as proof of FFVII stuff. It's just fun fan service and if anything, it points toward him loving both. Most people's opinions that he just loves one or the other usually depends on how they played the game :monster:
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"Sweetheart" or "lover". The translations make it clear the latter is acceptable anyway.
Edit: saw your clarification, that makes more sense lol, thought this was gonna be a thing.

I also think cameos count in the sense that it's a sign of what Square thinks. And also I just think it's so obvious he liked both that it's hardly a stretch.

a_apple said:
Yeah, I also agree with this. Clouds actions in AC aren't about love but survivor guilt.
(also sorry for the double post :mon:)
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His guilt over Aeris is a lot stronger though. It's more complex than just guilt with her, and probably with Zack too.

Grease said:
Aerith. i've read Nojima stated they were lovers. and AC cloud's feelings guilt over Aerith's death. It's romantic. he basically wanted to give up on living. a lot of their cameos in other games as well points to aerith being the one cloud loves.
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I think this stuff is all pretty defensible. I'd include Tifa but I also think the original game pushes Aerith harder and Tifa was meant as a "surprise waifu" almost. Since their feelings really come out in the massive revelatory Mideel sequence. However the childhood "friend" who can't be honest is such a cliche, and spelled out in the instruction manual, that it didn't come across as a surprise.
As such the Cloud and Tifa relationship seemed to me like the scene with Marianne and Indi at the end of Raiders of the Lost Ark: "obviously they're together just from the finality given to it but we'll leave the specifics up to you." And then in both franchise's cases there were follow-ups but were not planned around that.
 
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