The Love Triangle Debate: Another Turn in the Cycle

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YuMiHim

Lv. 1 Adventurer
AKA
the white life
Hello, there. Registered just after reading the latest LTD analysis (not all, to be honest.) A very interesting read. Good job, people.

In case it hasn't been discussed or mentioned somewhere here, have you read the "English" Ultimania (released in 2018) and what are your thoughts on it? Just how exactly credible is it?

For instance, this rather explict snippet:

"The only person he held close to his heart was Tifa. Their love is brought into the light when Tifa explores Cloud's subconscious."


And of course, backed up by the "he confirms with her that their feelings match. " in the JP version:


... The timing feels just off. I must be misunderstanding things but can someone clear it up?
 

YuMiHim

Lv. 1 Adventurer
AKA
the white life
Also, remake spoilers

"In Aerith's resolution: she tells him not to fall in love with her and Cloud was like "do I have a say in this?". But in the end, he says "I'm coming for you" and she says "Okay if that's what you want". Also, her Red Dress scene had fireworks in background.
 

Odysseus

Potato Cult Leader
AKA
Ody
I'm kind of on the same page here. While I don't hate her flirting with Cloud, I find her interactions with Biggs much more interesting.
Controversial opinion given my own disposition on the subject: I don't actually think Jessie is deeply in love with Cloud. Does she have a thing for him? Most certainly, but I think a lot of it is her playing it up for her own amusement. She's a theater kid, trying to have fun and live out this romeo juliet schtick with Cloud to distract herself from the guilt she has over her eco terrorist actions. Mr. Wedge even warns Cloud about it. I think the reason she comes off more natural with Biggs is because they were childhood friends, so he's wise to her schtick. That's why I like those two together, she tries to get it going and biggs just deconstructs the whole thing.

Off course, Clessie is still my OTP because I am a trash man, but that's my actual take on her character. I think its endearing but I see why other people find her annoying or creepy too.
 
Also, remake spoilers

"In Aerith's resolution: she tells him not to fall in love with her and Cloud was like "do I have a say in this?". But in the end, he says "I'm coming for you" and she says "Okay if that's what you want". Also, her Red Dress scene had fireworks in background.
So, her bad dress had
dogs and rats

That resolution has more than one interpretation and could lean either way from an objective pov. Also

Aerith is hella toxic in her chapter with Cloud, ignoring his words, talking over him, forcing him to do shit he doesn't want to, embarrassing him into staying over, out right acting like him saying no doesn't matter.

If that was gender reverse people would be getting pitchforks out because how dare a man ignore a woman saying no and that she wants to go home.
 
I don't think that's true at all and I don't think it's necessary to attack Aerith, people could twist things like that for Tifa as well. Like Tifa was "forcing" Cloud to do things he didn't want to do in her chapter with him/throughout the game?, he wasn't enjoying the things he had to do, like with the cats?, etc. If you're going to hate on the girls at least make it equal. Maybe all three were "toxic" and forcing him to do things.

Like sorry I've already seen people do this over Tifa, that she was inserting herself into things, speaking up/over ruling/talking over when it was none of her business, forcing him to do things etc, and i'm no, just no. Jessie too, I've seen it implied she forced everything on him/all of it/with their scenes/interactions, etc. Maybe some could argue this was the case with all three and that Cloud would be better off with someone who isn't toxic or forceful, Wedge or Biggs, or something, I don't know.

I mean ok if people think all, one or none of those Cloud comes into contact with are toxics, but if it's going to be used as a love debate contention point, people can and will argue the same applying to others, and perhaps single mindedly drag that particular girl only.
 
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Odysseus

Potato Cult Leader
AKA
Ody
One could argue that Cloud was so willing to go along with Aerith because he had already been through the whole "hey cloud, help me with this" rigmarole with Tifa and Jessie. Heck, before he helps Jessie out he tells himself "it's just another job..." in a very uncertain tone. Despite outward appearances, I think he actually wants to help people. Croudo is actually a pretty nice guy underneath.
 

Shadowfox

You look like you need a monkey
I don't check social network often
Has it started yet? :wacky:
I think so. I caught a couple of glimpses of Clerith essay copy-pasting in some tumblr accounts and gaming forums, and more than a few tweets from gamers (both veteran and new fans of FF7) complaining of pro-Clerith accounts bombarding their timelines with the usual antics.
 
I don't think that's true at all and I don't think it's necessary to attack Aerith, people could twist things like that for Tifa as well. Like Tifa was "forcing" Cloud to do things he didn't want to do in her chapter with him/throughout the game?, he wasn't enjoying the things he had to do, like with the cats?, etc. If you're going to hate on the girls at least make it equal. Maybe all three were "toxic" and forcing him to do things.

Like sorry I've already seen people do this over Tifa, that she was inserting herself into things, speaking up/over ruling/talking over when it was none of her business, forcing him to do things etc, and i'm no, just no. Jessie too, I've seen it implied she forced everything on him/all of it/with their scenes/interactions, etc. Maybe some could argue this was the case with all three and that Cloud would be better off with someone who isn't toxic or forceful, Wedge or Biggs, or something, I don't know.

I mean ok if people think all, one or none of those Cloud comes into contact with are toxics, but if it's going to be used as a love debate contention point, people can and will argue the same applying to others, and perhaps single mindedly drag that particular girl only.
I'm sorry you feel that way, but when someone blatantly says no and is made to do it anyway, that's toxic.
Tifa cajoled Cloud, she persuaded. At no point did he flatly refuse and have her railroad him into it anyway.
 
You are taking that as a fact, just like I've seen people take those things about Tifa as a fact. If that's the way people want to be. You can argue for Tifa cajoling and persuading, thing is I can see that PoV and accept it. Thing is there is different interpretation for Aerith and others as well as Ody's post which is how I felt and saw as I was playing. I think it could be seen as a natural progression from Jessie, to Tifa, to Jessie again, to Aerith, and soon on. Indeed characters including Aerith and Tifa collaborate and work together on it at some points. People might argue characters walk all over Cloud when they are together with him and are toxic af
 
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User Section Banned (Indefinite): Toxic, Bad Faith Discourse.
You are taking that as a fact, just like I've seen people take those things about Tifa as a fact. If that's the way people want to be. You can argue for Tifa cajoling and persuading, thing is I can see that PoV and accept it. Thing is there is different interpretation for Aerith and others as well as Ody's post which is how I felt and saw as I was playing. I think it could be seen as a natural progression from Jessie, to Tifa, to Jessie again, to Aerith, and soon on. Indeed characters including Aerith and Tifa collaborate and work together on it at some points. People might argue characters walk all over Cloud when they are together with him and are toxic af
It is a fact he says no. He literally refuses Aerith and gets forced to do what she wants. You can hear him say it. There's a sub. I don't make up negative comments about characters to further my own ends. I don't care that much.

Aerith is toxic. Jessie is forceful but easily rebuffed. Tifa persuades. These are all linked to their personality traits.
Aerith can be toxic to Cloud with the way she treats him like he has no voice and she can make him do whatever she wants. She's a toxic force to her mother too with her don't be sad but your husband died. I mean it's a child saying it, but she's not like other kids.

Jessie does throw herself at Cloud, but easily backtracks with a psych. She barels in her way or nothing in a lot of situations and that's why she should've died.

Tifa does persuade because she takes the path of least resistance. She doesn't want to fight, as evidenced by her statements to various characters throughout.

I'm not saying they don't have other qualities but in this case, Aerith is toxic. Anyone refusing to listen or let someone leave and outright ignoring the word no, is toxic.
 

Yumelinh

Pro Adventurer
Controversial opinion given my own disposition on the subject: I don't actually think Jessie is deeply in love with Cloud. Does she have a thing for him? Most certainly, but I think a lot of it is her playing it up for her own amusement. She's a theater kid, trying to have fun and live out this romeo juliet schtick with Cloud to distract herself from the guilt she has over her eco terrorist actions. Mr. Wedge even warns Cloud about it. I think the reason she comes off more natural with Biggs is because they were childhood friends, so he's wise to her schtick. That's why I like those two together, she tries to get it going and biggs just deconstructs the whole thing.

Off course, Clessie is still my OTP because I am a trash man, but that's my actual take on her character. I think its endearing but I see why other people find her annoying or creepy too.

That's how I perceived it too. Jessie was having the time of her life teasing Cloud bc that's what she likes to do ( as a distraction as you said). If given the chance to be with Cloud would she reject it then? Absolutely not! :P but at the same time, it wasn't really that deep like she was "head over heels" in love with him or something like this.

All in all, I loved their interactions so much! So much fun!

One could argue that Cloud was so willing to go along with Aerith because he had already been through the whole "hey cloud, help me with this" rigmarole with Tifa and Jessie. Heck, before he helps Jessie out he tells himself "it's just another job..." in a very uncertain tone. Despite outward appearances, I think he actually wants to help people. Croudo is actually a pretty nice guy underneath.
This and the fact that Aerith really doesn't take no as an answer lol but I don't see it as toxic in any way ( If Cloud really wanted to leave he could very easily and she wouldn't be able to stop him). Also, Aerith draws people in with her personality and I'm not even saying it in a romantic way, I mean people get attached to her very easily.


I don't check social network often
Has it started yet? :wacky:
On twitter? Absolutely!
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
I think you're thinking wayyyy too much about this. It just shows the difference in characters between the girls and how they get Cloud to do what they need him to do. Tifa's the sofest, Jessie the wildest, Aerith is well, herself. Cloud will have different interactions and different reactions to each because they actually trigger his interest in different ways (which is, admittingly, less or more forceful depending on the girl).

Tifa is the only one he really knows, and who really knows him, so she knows best how to not get a "no", and that shows. That's all there is to it.
 

Yumelinh

Pro Adventurer
Hello, there. Registered just after reading the latest LTD analysis (not all, to be honest.) A very interesting read. Good job, people.

In case it hasn't been discussed or mentioned somewhere here, have you read the "English" Ultimania (released in 2018) and what are your thoughts on it? Just how exactly credible is it?

For instance, this rather explict snippet:

"The only person he held close to his heart was Tifa. Their love is brought into the light when Tifa explores Cloud's subconscious."


And of course, backed up by the "he confirms with her that their feelings match. " in the JP version:


... The timing feels just off. I must be misunderstanding things but can someone clear it up?
What do you mean by misunderstanding? That Cloud and Tifa confirmed their feelings for each other?

if that's the question then I'm pretty sure it has been proven many times in ultimanias ( very reliable source) that yes, they do have feelings for one another.

I guess you asking it because of the love triangle, correct? It pretty much exists in the game as Cloud shows interest to both girls after all, but personally I always thought Aerith was supposed to be a red herring: you were supposed to believe she was the main romantic interest as much as you were supposed to believe Cloud was a Soldier. Lifestream scene solves that when Tifa is able to "fix" Cloud and discovers that his real self has been in love with her all along.

As for how they will solve the LTD on the remake, only time will tell tbh lol
 
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Beautifully put about their characters, Eerie and Yumelinh, good postings, I loaded my save from outside Aerith's house and Cloud doesn't say the word
"No" in the scene upon entering there nor for the event with the kids or when the missions open up, indeed when Aerith asks what do you want to do next Cloud says "keep on working hard"

Personally I feel Cloud became more receptive in general as the Chapter went on notably with the whole
search/rescue/escort deal, then with the starting the missions, etc, Aerith was hyping/praising Cloud up to the kids as well

I liked the
flower picking and Leaf House part. [/spoiler】

Edit - Alright I played from the start of c8 again via chapter select to back up my memory and add to what I played again from above, yeah Cloud never says the word No.
 
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The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Just popping in to say that I am, as I type this, trying to come up with a good set-up up for revising this thread/sub-forum.

Also, @Via Purifico , regardless of how that set-up shakes out, character assassination of the sort in your last three posts is not going to be part of it. It's not only not borne out by how the narrative and those occupying it view the character -- it's not a good-faith approach to discussing the subject. Bringing that to a conversation is what is truly toxic.
 
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