The Love Triangle Debate: Another Turn in the Cycle

[The Twilight Mexican]

I expect a thorough response to my "I'm done" post.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Would ya settle for a bro-fist from yours truly instead?

 

[BlankBeat]

Now you're asking for context?

This doesn't really have any impact of what Cloud and Tifa's relationship is.

That's super convenient. The question people should be asking is the one you want them to be asking.

And then he sent him away and left it so it was just Cloud and Tifa. And didn't seem to return him after AC either (given Reminiscence where Cloud has to go to visit him rather than going to Edge).

There is absolutely nothing in DC that enables you to judge where Barret is living.

What we are specifically talking about is this quote:
Inside, I felt one thing was for sure: Cloud and Tifa would be together. Everybody would be living back home where they belonged.

Nojima is talking about how everyone will be living at home where they belong, and that Cloud and Tifa would be together wherever their home happens to be. So, the one thing Nojima was, “sure of” was that Cloud and Tifa would create a home together. He wasn’t sure of anything else until he actually wrote CoT. So when we read CoT, we see that Cloud and Tifa did, indeed, create a home together. That was the one thing Nojima was sure of. But what Nojima wasn't sure of, but what actually happened in the story, is that Barret was with them, too.

After visiting the Forgotten City, the party splits up:
The comrades that were with Tifa for the whole trial of their journey split up, just as easily as they did when they joined in. Vincent departed as if he were a passenger beside you on a train. Yuffie protested. She asked everyone if they were all right about splitting up, now that they were friends. Barret was the one who told her that they could see each other whenever they wanted if they all lived. Or maybe it was Cid. After promising to reunite one day, Tifa, Cloud and Barret separated from the others., leaving for Corel Village.

The only three that remain together are Cloud, Tifa, and Barret. If Nojima wanted it to just be Cloud and Tifa together, he would have had Barret leave alone just like what he did with Cid, Vincent, and Yuffie. But the last line says, “After promising to reunite one day, Tifa, Cloud and Barret separated from the others...”

Nojima keeps Cloud, Tifa, and Barret together. Not just Cloud and Tifa, but Cloud, Tifa, and Barret. That says, right there, that the three of them belong together. In other words, if Nojima wanted Cloud and Tifa to be together exclusively, why did he have Barret leave the Forgotten City with them? Why didn’t Nojima have Barret go his separate way just like he did with Cid, Vincent, and Yuffie? Why didn't Nojima have Cloud and Tifa leave together, without Barret?

Then, when Cloud discusses going “home,” he discusses it with Barret, Tifa, and Marlene. In-fact, this conversation seems to be more of a conversation between Cloud and Barret – Tifa seems to just be in the background.

Barret wonders where this home will take form, and Cloud assures him they will find one *together*.

“Come on, lets go home,” said Cloud.
“Where to?” Barret asked.
“Our suspended reality.”
“What the hell do you mean by that?”
“Our normal lives.”
“And where do we have something like that?”
“We’ll find one.” Cloud looked at Tifa and said, “Right?”
“Yeah!” cried the cheerful Marlene. Tifa nodded too, but just like Barret, she wondered where they had a normal life.

So, if Nojima says everyone will go back "home" where they “belong,” and Cloud, Tifa, and Barret discuss finding a home together, then the three of them belong in a home together.

Then, according to CoT...
The four of them arrived back at Midgar.

After Cloud, Tifa, and Barret discuss finding a home together, the three of them arrive in Midgar. After being together in Midgar, this takes place:

The next day, Barret looked serious and said, “How about we start a business and sell this alcohol?”

Barret says how about *WE* start a business together. Barret then reminds everyone that...

Not long ago, AVALANCHE’s hideout was at a bar named Seventh Heaven. It was what funded the members’ lives and activities. Tifa was the barmaid there, or more accurately, the bar’s manager. Barret continued.

Barret is essentially saying this: we lived together and ran a business together before, so why not do it again?

After some discussion...

The three of them made preparations. They decided to build their new business in the new town of Edge that was north of Midgar.

Then it is suggested Barret was thinking about being the bouncer...

Barret was sipping his wine in a corner. Maybe he was planning to be the bouncer.

However...after realizing how well the business was doing, Barret decided to resolve some issues with his past...

After the first week of being open, Barret said that he would go on a trip seeing how well the business was going. He was going to leave Marlene behind.

“I wanna go on a journey to settle my past.”

Barret's journey was never meant to be permanent. Once Barret's issues are resolved, he would go back to living with Cloud, Tifa, and Marlene. When Barret leaves, he says...

Barret turned round and shouted, “Do your best!” His voice was a little shaky.

“Unite the family’s strength and keep at it!”

Barret says, "unite the family's strength" because, as I have established, he left the Forgotten City with Cloud and Tifa, discussed finding a home with Cloud and Tifa, came up with the idea to start a business with Cloud and Tifa, helped re-build Seventh Heaven with Cloud and Tifa, and began a family with Cloud and Tifa. SE put Cloud, Tifa, *AND* Barret together.

As for DoC...

Barret is in every scene with Cloud and Tifa in DoC. Barret and Tifa are shown riding in a truck together as they go to Midgar to join the battle. If Barret wasn't living with Tifa, why would he be traveling with Tifa? Barret is obviously back with them because he is able to travel with Tifa. Plus, Cloud, Tifa, and Barret are together when they call Vincent.

It’s not hard to see Barret is back with Cloud and Tifa considering he is included in every scene they are in during DoC. Barret was never meant to be away permanently.

1) The Japanese script is still the original one.
2) The English script can say a bunch of things that don't necessarily fit with that.

Again, why did they write the ending the way they did, then? These aren't real events that actually happened and they were just writing them down, they happen however the writers want them to. There was no need to have Cloud, if he is meant to be expressing some romantic desire to be with Aerith that has nothing to do with Tifa, say this thing right in front of Tifa and then to have her answer. He could have said it seconds earlier when he was in the white light and a hand was reaching down, or in any number of other possible scenes.

But they didn't. Instead we got, according to you:

Cloud: "I want to go, BY MYSELF AND ON MY OWN, to meet Aerith because I love her."
Tifa: "That sounds nice, I'll come too even though I might not even be able to see Aerith."

You're proposing a convoluted, cack-handed reading of the line because that's the one that best supports your interpretation and desires for the story. Even though there is a much simpler explanation that was actually included in publication released by Square (that of Cloud and Tifa both saying they are going to see Aerith).

So that's your answer? That Square wanted to show Tifa playing a supporting role in Cloud's life, even though Cloud doesn't want her to come along? Is that why you think they went with the scene they did?

I do think SE continued with Tifa’s personality in the final scene – that of someone who wants to help those in need. Of course she wants to help Cloud find Aerith in the Promised Land. But Cloud specifically states, in the official English translation, that HE thinks HE can find Aerith in the Promised Land.

If SE wanted Cloud to say, "WE should go find Aerith in the Promised Land", they would've translated it that way. But they didn't. They translated it as Cloud saying that HE thinks HE can find Aerith in the Promised Land. Then we see Cloud going to Aerith's Church by himself, without Tifa, and without inviting Tifa along. In fact, Cloud doesn't even tell Tifa that he's going to Aerith's Church. If Cloud is not inviting Tifa along, it's because he doesn't want Tifa to go. Period.

Which is a big long-winded way of saying that what you originally said wasn't factual so you need to make up a new theory so you can keep using the same point.

You say 'visits Aerith's church' as if you have any kind of backing to the idea that he goes there multiple times. We know he went there once, at least, because he found Denzel. And that's it. That's the only visit to the church, prior to his disappearance later, that we know of. The only other Aerith-related visiting he did was to the Forgotten City, which was a request my Aerith's mother and not of Cloud's own volition.

There's nothing in the books or films that says Cloud 'wants a relationship with Aerith and doesn't want Tifa involved'.

When Cloud leaves afterwards, that's when he gets Geostigma and leaves completely. That's not really the same as visiting the church without telling Tifa.

Cloud says that Tifa can go with him the next time he goes, but then Cloud disappears at the end of CoT. Cloud leaves Seventh Heaven and doesn't answer Tifa's calls. Then, in AC, we see that Cloud had continued residing at Aerith’s Church, right? I haven’t seen the movie in a long time, but my recollection is that Tifa realizes Cloud had still been residing at Aerith’s Church [even after telling her that she could go with him the next time he went]. Actions speak louder than words. Clearly, when it comes to Aerith, Cloud doesn't want Tifa involved.

Also – why do you think when Tifa realizes Cloud had been residing at the Church, she automatically starts to feel insecure and jealous [as outlined in a passage by SE]? Answer: she realizes Cloud’s feelings regarding Aerith (Tifa’s “love rival”) are something that he wants to keep private, personal, away from her, and between him and Aerith *only*.

You are just making shit up now. This never happened.

News flash: he was happy with his life at Seventh Heaven, as stated numerous times by the creators. 'The happier he becomes, the more he fears something would ruin that happiness.'

And your source for them arguing and fighting all the time is...?

I’m not making stuff up. And although SE states Cloud was happy living at Seventh Heaven with his family, one can easily attribute this with the introduction of Denzel. If you want evidence why a romantic relationship between Cloud and Tifa is not definitive, I will gladly give you the evidence. But please don’t accuse me of making stuff up:

First and foremost, SE has Marlene say directly to Barret that, “Cloud and Tifa aren’t getting along very well.” Marlene's remark speaks to the general idea that Cloud and Tifa are fighting and not seeing eye-to-eye.

Here are some other important quotes to consider. I'd like to see your reaction to each and every one. I have bolded the parts that warrant extra attention.

1. Tifa was trying to convince the children that there were no problems, but she lost her composure and the children soon realized something was wrong.

2. After Cloud started his delivery service,*their “family” life changed greatly. It wasn’t too good. Besides morning and late night,*Cloud was usually not at home.*And of course, there were less chances for the three of them to have conversations together. Tifa closed the bar for a day during the week, but it didn’t stop Cloud from doing his job. Cloud wasn’t likely to turn down requests. I just wanted us to be able to take a day off together now and then but, I suppressed that selfishness in me.*During that time, it was Marlene who noticed a change in Cloud.*She told Tifa how Cloud would sometimes look up at the sky and not listen to her.

3. It was night, and they had closed the bar. Cloud was drinking alcohol even though he rarely did. He drained his glass. Tifa thought about it before going over and filling his glass.

“Shall I join you?” There was something she wanted to talk to him about.
“I want to drink alone.”
Hearing that, Tifa lost control and said, “Then drink in your room.”

4. It didn’t go well. But we were together. It was because we were family. We lived in the same house and we were living by uniting our strength. Maybe there wasn’t much conversation or many smiles, but we were family, Tifa thought to herself. No, it was what she made herself think.


5. Of course, there was no answer. I only heard the sound of him sleeping. I wondered if the fact that he was sleeping here meant that he was part of the family.

“Do you love me?”

6. Tifa: “Yeah, but that's not stopping Denzel, is it? Don't run! Let's fight it together! We can help each other, I know we can.”
[Cloud is silent again.]
Tifa: “I guess that only works for real families...”

7. Tifa wondered if that smile he showed her was an illusion. After kissing the sleeping children on the face she went into Cloud’s office. She brushed away the dust on the family photo they had taken and then tried calling him. After several rings the messaging service took over.

8. "Episode Tifa"... first off, there's the premise that things won't go well between Tifa and Cloud, and that even without Geostigma or Sephiroth this might be the same."

'Back to' implies we actually saw him sleeping in that bed in the first place. When all we actually have is one scene with Nojima's vague descriptive prose that doesn't really tell us where the scene was happening.

Since we never see where Tifa sleep, why cannot it be assumed that she never sleeps at all?

We never see Marlene sleep in the bed found in her room, but we assume she sleeps there during AC. Why is that? Because the bed is found in her room. Why wouldn't it be the most likely scenario that Cloud sleeps in the bed found in his room? If Cloud and Tifa do not sleep together, that is indicative of a relationship that isn't romantic.

Also -- where did Cloud sleep when Marlene always slept with Tifa?

Marlene, who had always slept with Tifa, slept with her foster father Barret the night before he left. Their conversations could be heard late into the night. ~Case of Tifa

Cloud and Tifa have a moment (the Highwind scene) described in the same manner, with the exact same wording, as other romantic couples in other FF games have been.

You might not see things as romantic, but apparently you see things that aren't visible to the eyes of mortals.

I’ve already agreed that Cloud and Tifa express mutual romantic feelings during the Highwind scene. But I do not believe these feelings led to Cloud and Tifa becoming boyfriend/girlfriend. I listed all the quotes that support my position above.

Stop and look at what you're saying. Cloud only cares about Denzel, because he serves a purpose as some kind of connection to Aerith.

where the hell do you find these thoughts, what are you even getting this from omg

i think it's your belief in cloud/aerith that is causing all the baseless nonsense you're saying now

Weren't many children suffering from Geostigma in Midgar? Why does Cloud specifically care about Denzel in particular? Answer: His belief that Aerith brought Denzel to him.

Only after Denzel appears does Tifa wonder if they finally became a “real family” because Cloud stopped taking as many jobs and decided to spend more time with the children:

Tifa wondered if they became a real family after Denzel appeared. Cloud was clearly taking less jobs. At night, he would always make sure he had time to spend with the children. The silly little conversations he had with Tifa were also back.

Fact is, Denzel wasn’t just a random kid with Geostigma Cloud picked up off the street. Cloud specifically associated Denzel with Aerith, which is specifically why he brought Denzel back to Seventh Heaven.

Unfortunately, when Tifa tells Cloud that she thinks Aerith brought Denzel to *THEM*, Cloud only responds with a smile that Tifa thinks could have been fake. Why does Tifa think Cloud's smile was fake? Because Cloud ends up leaving Seventh Heaven after this conversation and doesn't answer any of her calls.

Cloud didn’t even want to tell Tifa why he felt so strongly about saving Denzel in the first place. He was worried Tifa would be mad when he told her that he found Denzel in-front of Aerith’s Church, which tells us Cloud was actually worried about telling Tifa he believed Aerith was somehow involved with bringing Denzel to him. Why?

Unfortunately for Tifa, Cloud returns to Aerith’s Church even after Tifa assures him that she’s not mad and tells Cloud she believes Aerith brought Denzel to *THEM*. But the fact that Cloud returns to Aerith’s Church after telling Tifa she could go with him the next time he went, and he decides to ignore her repeated calls when he leaves, suggests that his smile was, indeed, fake.

--------------------

So... why is it okay for you to only use official english translations yet in your signature you have two unofficial translations, one of which has an OFFICIAL translation that's very different.

And do NOT play dumb and say "Do I? What is the real translation." cause this has been brought up before.

And don't say "Because Clotis uses unofficial translations all the time!" or anything either. It's not fair for you to use an official translation only when it's convenient for you.

Simple answer: I haven't bothered to edit my signature. But if you really want me to, I will.

--------------------

Did you ever consider the reason Cloud is told he doesn't belong there yet is because it's not his time to die yet? Did it ever occur to you in the slightest that Zack and Aerith are telling Cloud that he's not done with his life yet and it's not time for him to join the lifestream?

Yes. Cloud doesn’t belong in the lifestream because he isn’t ready to die. But Cloud comes to the realization through AC that if he wants to connect with Aerith or Zack before returning to the lifestream, he can do so through Aerith’s Church.

I'm also gobsmacked that you completely choose to ignore Zack and his role during the whole thing, Cloud cared for Zack too, he was his best friend and he felt as equally guilty for his death as he did for Aerith's in fact one of the things I was so happy about with ACC was it expanded Cloud and Zack's relationship and show's Cloud to feel as equally guilty for his death as he did for Aerith's. The way you behave, you'd think Zack never existed at all.

It is stated that the love triangle revolves around Cloud, Tifa, and Aerith. I’m not really concerned with how Cloud feels toward Zack when debating the LTD. But I have never denied the importance Zack plays in Cloud’s life.

Sorry but where does it say ever in that sentence that Aerith is Cloud's promised land, that the church is his promised land. Its fucking right in front of you where it is, his promised land is his friends, his family, that's where he's meant to be, right there with them, his guilt is gone and now he can live his life the way he is meant to.

Yes, Cloud's guilt is removed during the course of AC. But the passage specifically says the *PLACE* Cloud awakens is his Promised Land; Cloud awakens in Aerith's Church.

Cloud says to Aerith as she leaves, "I know. I'm not alone... not anymore...." If Cloud was feeling alone before AC/ACC, then who was missing from his life? Aerith and Zack. Who was Cloud reunited with during AC/ACC? Aerith and Zack. Where can Aerith and Zack's spirits be found? In the Church.

So although Cloud does not belong in the lifestream with them yet, he always knows he can reach them in Aerith's Church. This knowledge allows Cloud to go back living as he is meant to until he is ready to return to Aerith and Zack in lifestream.

To elaborate further...

"The Cetra were a race who traveled the Planet, healing and cultivating it, and at the end of their journey would find the Promised Land, a land of supreme happiness." ~FFVII Wiki

When you return to the planet, you become one with the lifestream and find supreme happiness. Your "Promised Land".

And when he turns around--- "she" is starting to leave. Together with the friend who had given Cloud his life. Cloud no longer has to suffer in loneliness... And so they too go back to where they belong.

Back to the current of life flowing around the planet--- ~FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania, AC Playback

Cloud belongs with his friends and family, whereas Zack and Aerith belong in the lifestream. Cloud will one day join Aerith and Zack in the lifestream, but isn't meant to join them quite "yet". Cloud is meant to live with his friends and family in the meantime. However, Cloud doesn't have to, "suffer in loneliness" any more because he knows where he can reach the two people that are missing from his life -- Aerith's Church. Aerith's Church is Cloud's Promised Land because it allows him to connect with the two people he is unable to connect with in the real world.

However, Aerith's Church is far more symbolic of Cloud's connection with Aerith than Zack. In Advent Children, Cloud finally understand what he was starting to understand at the end of Final Fantasy VII: his Promised Land is always with Aerith. Whether it be her Church, or with her in the lifestream.

Cloud and Aerith will one day reunite in the lifestream like Dyne and his wife, Eleanor. In the meantime, he can find her at her Church, which is stated to be his Promised Land.

No one here thinks you don't have the right to support Clerith, ever. What really gets me angry is when you start using quotes like this and twist them in a way that works only for you and refuse to acknowledge them for what they are. You've made some good and interesting Clerith points in the past but then you go and start making remarks like this and any plausible argument you once had goes out the window.

Do yourself a favour, stop looking at every quote with rose tinted Clerith glasses. When you start arguing in a sensible way you make some really valid points and some of them have made me go ok, fine yeah I see where you're coming from but you're letting yourself down a lot right now, because you've once again gone from the mindset of both pairings can be canon and Cloud loved both women to once again refuting any information that disproves a Clerith Argument, even when it's not arguing in favour of Cloti and any information that argues for Cloti completely. You need to stop doing that and start looking at everything with a much more open mind, it's fine for you to argue in favour of Clerith, but stop trying to make every single little detail become an argument in favour of this and completely disregarding anything that is said to refute that.

Thanks for the advice.

 

[Sprites]

Yes. Cloud doesn’t belong in the lifestream because he isn’t ready to die. But Cloud comes to the realization through AC that if he wants to connect with Aerith or Zack before returning to the lifestream, he can do so through Aerith’s Church.

WTF is this bullshit? The fuck are you pulling this from, I can't believe I'm asking this but where's your evidence for either Aerith or Zack that this is going to happen, that this takes place?

It is stated that the love triangle revolves around Cloud, Tifa, and Aerith. I’m not really concerned with how Cloud feels toward Zack when debating the LTD. But I have never denied the importance Zack plays in Cloud’s life.

Only when it suits you, otherwise Zack is completely non-existent to you.

Cloud belongs with his friends and family, whereas Zack and Aerith belong in the lifestream. Cloud will one day join Aerith and Zack in the lifestream, but isn't meant to join them quite "yet". Cloud is meant to live with his friends and family in the meantime. However, Cloud doesn't have to, "suffer in loneliness" any more because he knows where he can reach the two people that are missing from his life -- Aerith's Church. Aerith's Church is Cloud's Promised Land because it allows him to connect with the two people he is unable to connect with in the real world.

You almost sound plausible here your first three sentences make sense and no one is goiing to deny that, until you start pulling that Cloud doesn't need to suffer because he has them two shit, he also has his family and his friends and you still don't understand that the church as in the building itself is NOT his Promised Land.

However, Aerith's Church is far more symbolic of Cloud's connection with Aerith than Zack. In Advent Children, Cloud finally understand what he was starting to understand at the end of Final Fantasy VII: his Promised Land is always with Aerith. Whether it be her Church, or with her in the lifestream.

Cloud and Aerith will one day reunite in the lifestream like Dyne and his wife, Eleanor. In the meantime, he can find her at her Church, which is stated to be his Promised Land.

I don't believe I'm hearing this, I actually don't believe you're refusing point bank to accept what that was, fuck sake it even goes back to that little "Everyone goes back to where they belong" quote you're so fond of bringing up, do I need to say it again? Cloud's Promised Land is not the bloody fucking building, it's his family and friends, what more do I need to say to get that into your head?

Someone shoot me, please do it now!

Thanks for the advice.

Which you clearly don't want to take.

 

[Dashell]

Yes. Cloud doesn’t belong in the lifestream because he isn’t ready to die. But Cloud comes to the realization through AC that if he wants to connect with Aerith or Zack before returning to the lifestream, he can do so through Aerith’s Church.

So... that scene in the woods and that scene when fighting Sephiroth (both back to backs) didn't happen?

Aerith's Church is Cloud's Promised Land because it allows him to connect with the two people he is unable to connect with in the real world.

But I thought Aerith lived inside him and he could see her whenever . Why did he have to go to the Flower Fields to see her at the end of AC/C if the church was where he felt connected?

 

[kittyform]

Aerith's Church is Cloud's Promised Land because it allows him to connect with the two people he is unable to connect with in the real world

I'm going to jump into this for a hot second. The story of AC/ACC is about Cloud's path to redemption. I do not believe it to be a love story between Cloud/Aerith or even Cloud/Tifa. It's about Cloud trying to seek forgiveness from his past failures which includes not saving the lives of his two friends Aerith and Zack. That being said, Aerith Church is not Cloud's Promise Land. Her church is a reminder to him of his failure to save her. He punishes himself by living in her church to remind himself that he does not deserve his life of happiness or even normalcy with Tifa and the children. This quote from the Ultimania backs it up.

"The happier he is now,
The more Cloud is tormented by painful “memories” of the past." FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania Cloud Strife Profile p36-41

shout out to Danseru-kun for the quote

Also when Nojima states that "things don't go well between Cloud and Tifa" its a PREMISE. Meaning he's setting up for the main story in AC/ACC. It shouldn't be taken as is, it should be taking as a character buildup for Cloud, and his journey to overcome his feeling of guilt.

When Aerith visits him on the way to saving Marlene, She ask him what is it that he seeks (paraphrasing a little). He doesn't say " To see you" or " To be with you" or even "To bring you back to life" rather he says "to be forgiven" .

Yes Aerith was important to him, no one is denying that, however, hes not yearning for him as some has claim he is. We know for a fact that Cloud loves Tifa since childhood, he got all messed up, started a quest with Aerith and some others, maybe started to fall for her too, she dies, gets his memories back, kills Sephorith and goes lives with Tifa in the end. No where did Cloud ever stopped loving her, he just forgot. Anyway I'm veering off into a different direction here. My two pence!

 

[Octo]

Funny how Aerith and Zack are shown leaving the church too, if that's where they are meant to stay. Wouldnt it make more sense for cloud to go live in Mideel? Then he could splash about in the Lifestream whenever he likes

 

[BlankBeat]

You almost sound plausible here your first three sentences make sense and no one is goiing to deny that, until you start pulling that Cloud doesn't need to suffer because he has them two shit, he also has his family and his friends and you still don't understand that the church as in the building itself is NOT his Promised Land.

I don't believe I'm hearing this, I actually don't believe you're refusing point bank to accept what that was, fuck sake it even goes back to that little "Everyone goes back to where they belong" quote you're so fond of bringing up, do I need to say it again? Cloud's Promised Land is not the bloody fucking building, it's his family and friends, what more do I need to say to get that into your head?

Where does it say Cloud's friends and family are his Promised Land?

When reading the passage, it specifically says the *PLACE* where Cloud awakens is his Promised Land. His friends and family aren't a "place". You may want Cloud's friends and family to be his Promised Land, but that's not what it says. SE specifically says the "place" where Cloud awakens is his Promised Land, *NOT* the people surrounding him. Why does SE do this?

At any rate...

Cloud also said that he was no longer alone:
"I know... I'm not alone. Not anymore."

Cloud was feeling alone even though he was living with his "family". The reason he no longer feels alone is because he finally sees Aerith and Zack in Aerith's Church. Cloud now realizes he can always reach the two people that were missing from his life through Aerith's Church, thus allowing him to go back to living with his friends and family.

So let me ask you...why do you think Cloud says he knows he's not alone anymore after seeing Aerith and Zack in Aerith's Church? Why did Cloud feel alone while living with his family? To me, the answer seems obvious.

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I'm going to jump into this for a hot second. The story of AC/ACC is about Cloud's path to redemption. I do not believe it to be a love story between Cloud/Aerith or even Cloud/Tifa. It's about Cloud trying to seek forgiveness from his past failures which includes not saving the lives of his two friends Aerith and Zack.

I agree.

Except for the fact that Aerith is merely a friend.
SE says that Cloud is Aerith's "koibito" (lover in Japanese), SE says that Cloud *wavers* between two heroines, Cloud tells Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him, Cloud agrees to go on a romantic date with Aerith, SE says Cait Sith's prediction was a wedding prediction that became more painful after Aerith's death (it can only become *more painful* if there was a possibility, based on mutual romance, for a marriage to take place), *AND* Cloud has a classic romantic slip-up take place in Cosmo Canyon. It is clear that Aerith was more than just a "friend" to Cloud.

That being said, Aerith Church is not Cloud's Promise Land. Her church is a reminder to him of his failure to save her. He punishes himself by living in her church to remind himself that he does not deserve his life of happiness or even normalcy with Tifa and the children. This quote from the Ultimania backs it up.

"The happier he is now,
The more Cloud is tormented by painful “memories” of the past." FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania Cloud Strife Profile p36-41

shout out to Danseru-kun for the quote

That quote doesn't say anything about Aerith's Church in particular. However, I will agree that the Church is a reminder of Cloud's failures *UNTIL* he is given forgiveness and told by Aerith that she never blamed him. Then, it becomes his Promised Land.

Also when Nojima states that "things don't go well between Cloud and Tifa" its a PREMISE. Meaning he's setting up for the main story in AC/ACC. It shouldn't be taken as is, it should be taking as a character buildup for Cloud, and his journey to overcome his feeling of guilt.

But Nojima says that even without Sephiroth, things might have been the same between Cloud and Tifa. Why does he say this? Answer: Cloud and Tifa's relationship can very well be viewed as fundamentally flawed.

 

[kittyform]

So let me ask you...why do you think Cloud says he knows he's not alone anymore after seeing Aerith and Zack in Aerith's Church? Why did Cloud feel alone while living with his family? To me, the answer seems obvious.

He says this because he's forgiven himself, he's no longer isolating himself from his family and friends therefore, he's not alone anymore cause he CHOOSES not to be alone.

However, I will agree that the Church is a reminder of Cloud's failures *UNTIL* he is given forgiveness and told by Aerith that she never blamed him. Then, it becomes his Promised Land.

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you on this. Cloud always had forgiveness from Aerith,in fact she never blamed him, Cloud had to forgive himself. And when he final forgives himself, yes he does wake up in Aerith's Church, but I do not think its meant to be represented as his own personal Promise Land.

The place where he awakens—-
That is Cloud’s Promised Land
As he sleeps, Cloud hears two voices. The voices of two people very dear to him, who are no longer with him. Playfully and kindly, they give him a message: he doesn’t belong here yet.
When he awakes, there was his friends. There were the children, freed from their fatal illness. Tifa and Marlene, and Denzel asking for Cloud to heal his Geostigma— his family were waiting. Engulfed in celebration, he realizes where he is meant to live. He realizes that he was able to forgive himself.
And when he turns around—- “she” is starting to leave. Together with the friend who had given Cloud his life. Cloud no longer has to suffer in loneliness… And so they too go back to where they belong.

His promise land is not a physical place, but the ability to find peace in his own heart, as corny as it sounds, but that peace includes forgiving himself, accepting peoples sacrifices for him and also to move on.

"But Nojima says that even without Sephiroth, things might have been the same between Cloud and Tifa. Why does he say this? Answer: Cloud and Tifa's relationship can very well be viewed as fundamentally flawed."

Like I said it's a Premise. Even without Sephiroth, things might not have been the same. It's what Nojima said, I'm not disputing you on this part, however, its use to set up the story, that is what a Premise is used for. The quote is not meant to be used as the CONCLUSION. Now if Nojima said, "the conclusion is that things don't go well for Cloud and Tifa" maybe you'd have a point, but he doesn't say that.

Answer: Cloud and Tifa's relationship can very well be viewed as fundamentally flawed.

Yes, their relationship is aggravatingly flawed. There is no denying that. But what relationship isn't. This is not a fairy tale ending. Like some people have stated earlier, even other FF characters who have had PDA romance, have failed. So even a un-flawed relationship can end, so whose to say a flawed relationship can't last.

But what we do know is that Cloud and Tifa are still together 2 years after AC/ACC. You can argue that their not together romantically but merely as companions, and Cloti can argue the opposite, either way neither side conclusively knows.

 

[Wolfhart]

He says this because he's forgiven himself, he's no longer isolating himself from his family and friends therefore, he's not alone anymore cause he CHOOSES not to be alone.



I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you on this. Cloud always had forgiveness from Aerith,in fact she never blamed him, Cloud had to forgive himself. And when he final forgives himself, yes he does wake up in Aerith's Church, but I do not think its meant to be represented as his own personal Promise Land.

The place where he awakens—-
That is Cloud’s Promised Land
As he sleeps, Cloud hears two voices. The voices of two people very dear to him, who are no longer with him. Playfully and kindly, they give him a message: he doesn’t belong here yet.
When he awakes, there was his friends. There were the children, freed from their fatal illness. Tifa and Marlene, and Denzel asking for Cloud to heal his Geostigma— his family were waiting. Engulfed in celebration, he realizes where he is meant to live. He realizes that he was able to forgive himself.
And when he turns around—- “she” is starting to leave. Together with the friend who had given Cloud his life. Cloud no longer has to suffer in loneliness… And so they too go back to where they belong.

His promise land is not a physical place, but the ability to find peace in his own heart, as corny as it sounds, but that peace includes forgiving himself, accepting peoples sacrifices for him and also to move on.

Thank you.

 

[Sprites]

Where does it say Cloud's friends and family are his Promised Land?

When reading the passage, it specifically says the *PLACE* where Cloud awakens is his Promised Land. His friends and family aren't a "place". You may want Cloud's friends and family to be his Promised Land, but that's not what it says. SE specifically says the "place" where Cloud awakens is his Promised Land, *NOT* the people surrounding him. Why does SE do this?

FUUUUUUUUUCCCCCCCCKKKKKKKKKKK

WHY IS IT ONLY YOU WHO CAN'T GRASP THE REAL FUCKING MEANING OF WHAT CLOUD'S PROMISED LAND IS??? HAVE YOU COMPLETELY LOST YOUR MIND????

I am actually completely aghast and just plain angry now at how ignorant you are being about this, are you arguing just for the sake of arguing this point???? You have been called out on this by several people now not even with Cloti in mind but with common sense in mind who can see what you're saying is completely wrong. Here's the thing, you're allowed to have an opinion but it's not the same as a fact and what you're doing right now is ignoring a pure fact here, you have no evidence to back up your claim that the Church is his Promised land and are completely ignoring a quote straight from the Chocobo's mouth about what Cloud's promised land is. I can't believe you are completely ignoring this, not to mention you also completely ignored my first question, on purpose I assume because I know you have no evidence to bloody back up your claim.

I just...I'm lost for words now I really am.

 

[Strangelove]

What we are specifically talking about is this quote:
Inside, I felt one thing was for sure: Cloud and Tifa would be together. Everybody would be living back home where they belonged.

Nojima is talking about how everyone will be living at home where they belong, and that Cloud and Tifa would be together wherever their home happens to be. So, the one thing Nojima was, “sure of” was that Cloud and Tifa would create a home together. He wasn’t sure of anything else until he actually wrote CoT. So when we read CoT, we see that Cloud and Tifa did, indeed, create a home together. That was the one thing Nojima was sure of. But what Nojima wasn't sure of, but what actually happened in the story, is that Barret was with them, too.

You were asking for the context of this quote before. Now you're just made up your own. I'm not going to argue for long stuff you've just pulled out of the ether.

Yeah, Cloud and Tifa would be together, wherever it was that they ended up. Which you're apparently conceding to. So where the hell do you get the notion that Cloud would have been living at the church if not for running or helping with a business?

Barret was there at first. He was part of their initial living situation. But you just said that Cloud and Tifa would have created a home together no matter what (and they call you a clerith!), and the story Nojima chose to tell was one where Barret was absent for the majority of it. He might have helped build the foundation for their living arrangements, but he wasn't there for the majority of the drama. He wasn't a major part of the story Nojima was telling.

I don't understand why you're saying Cloud and Tifa would be together, but that isn't really that meaningful because Barret was there too (for a brief period)? Barret isn't the one Cloud is telling that being with them is the reason he thinks he won't fail at his start of a new life this time.

Barret says how about *WE* start a business together. Barret then reminds everyone that...

Not long ago, AVALANCHE’s hideout was at a bar named Seventh Heaven. It was what funded the members’ lives and activities. Tifa was the barmaid there, or more accurately, the bar’s manager. Barret continued.

That isn't a quote from Barret, that's narration. 'Barret continued' (which is removed from the revised edition) refers to his line after that.

Barret is in every scene with Cloud and Tifa in DoC. Barret and Tifa are shown riding in a truck together as they go to Midgar to join the battle. If Barret wasn't living with Tifa, why would he be traveling with Tifa? Barret is obviously back with them because he is able to travel with Tifa. Plus, Cloud, Tifa, and Barret are together when they call Vincent.

That is really flimsy reasoning. The only situation you see them in is fighting a heavily armed enemy together. That's no indication of where he lives. Maybe he moves back, maybe he doesn't. You don't know because all you see is him shooting people in the face and not a word about where he lives.

Fighting a battle together =/= living together. Yuffie isn't living with Cid just because they appear together in AC. Cait Sith doesn't live with Nanaki just because he was sitting on his back. You took an extraordinary situation, a dangerous group of SOLDIER members attacking the world, and claimed that because they were seen together during a few scenes it means you can tell what their living arrangements are.

But you know what, I did find something saying that Barret is living with Marlene (if you assume Marlene still lives at Seventh Heaven then that would mean he moved back; or Marlene lives with him somewhere else):

「現在は、親友の遺児であるマリンと共に暮らしているが…」
"Currently he is living with Marlene, the orphaned child of his best friend, however..."
(Dirge of Cerberus Official Complete Guide, p.21: http://imgur.com/qnVcLlw )

That is how you back something up. Not with 'there were on screen together, so obviously they all live together'. I managed to make your point better than you did yourself.

I do think SE continued with Tifa’s personality in the final scene – that of someone who wants to help those in need. Of course she wants to help Cloud find Aerith in the Promised Land. But Cloud specifically states, in the official English translation, that HE thinks HE can find Aerith in the Promised Land.

But in your vision, she's not really being supportive or helping those in need. She is pushing her way into Cloud's personal life, where she isn't wanted, and to make matters worse she can't even accomplish what she says she wants to because Aerith isn't 'her Promised Land'. So you're claiming that Square ended the game with Tifa being pushy, and what's more not even capable of doing the thing she is inviting herself along to do.

If SE wanted Cloud to say, "WE should go find Aerith in the Promised Land", they would've translated it that way.

'Official translation' is not the only way Square can express themselves. How do you think they expect their Japanese fans to understand the story? Force them all to learn English so they too get to read the 'official translation'? An English translation doesn't invalidate alternative readings you can make from the original text.

And this is only an issue if you insist that because it is written "I think I can..." that it automatically means that Cloud doesn't want Tifa to come with him.

Then we see Cloud going to Aerith's Church by himself, without Tifa, and without inviting Tifa along. In fact, Cloud doesn't even tell Tifa that he's going to Aerith's Church. If Cloud is not inviting Tifa along, it's because he doesn't want Tifa to go. Period.

That's if you make the assumption that Cloud going to the church in the first place has anything to do with 'finding the Promised Land' and not other reasons (such as guilt, as stated on relationship charts! for AC).

Which is a big assumption that you can't really back up. You have no ground to stand on to claim that Cloud is looking for the Promised Land or Aerith in AC, because we aren't given anything to suggest that. Unlike Cloud feeling guilty and wanting forgiveness, for which there is plenty to support it.

But your entire argument is centred around that assumption.

Cloud leaves Seventh Heaven and doesn't answer Tifa's calls.

Cloud doesn't seem to answer anyone's calls. You can interpret this from all the messages from his friends on his phone.

But his not answering his phone doesn't mean he doesn't care about these people. He still keeps his phone even if he doesn't answer it. Which is a point highlighted in AC itself.

Then, in AC, we see that Cloud had continued residing at Aerith’s Church, right? I haven’t seen the movie in a long time, but my recollection is that Tifa realizes Cloud had still been residing at Aerith’s Church [even after telling her that she could go with him the next time he went].

'Continued residing' is where this argument falls apart. There's nothing to suggest he has 'still been residing' there. This is a case of your recollection being hazy and distorted around this conclusion that doesn't exist.

Nothing in that scene, or any other, suggests that Cloud was living there before. Only that he was living there now. There has never been any suggestion that he was living anywhere but Seventh Heaven prior to that.

But please don’t accuse me of making stuff up:

Then stop making things up. Stop basing your argument on things you have no evidence for (Cloud is looking for the Promised Land in AC, Cloud frequently visits the church, Cloud lives there part-time).

And although SE states Cloud was happy living at Seventh Heaven with his family, one can easily attribute this with the introduction of Denzel.

You have nothing to support this. Just like there's nothing to support 'Cloud and Tifa fought and argued all the time' except the version of the story that exists in your mind. Cloud wasn't notably sad until after visiting the Forgotten City, that's when things started getting bad. And as kittyform has mention, Cloud being happy made him distressed because he was afraid to lose the happiness he has.

Here are some other important quotes to consider. I'd like to see your reaction to each and every one. I have bolded the parts that warrant extra attention.

This is rich, coming from someone who has on multiple occasions ignored the points I've brought up (when they have been highlighted again after being ignored once, even).

What do you hope to see from me by showing a bunch of quotes where things aren't going well, when I already told you I think they have problems during that period?

6. Tifa: “Yeah, but that's not stopping Denzel, is it? Don't run! Let's fight it together! We can help each other, I know we can.”
[Cloud is silent again.]
Tifa: “I guess that only works for real families...”

Cloud follows this up by saying he can't save 'friends, family, anyone', he still considers them a family. At the end of AC, as shown in The Kids Are Alright, he believes his family is as real as anyone else's. He... shock, i don't believe... overcomes the problems he faces during the story.

8. "Episode Tifa"... first off, there's the premise that things won't go well between Tifa and Cloud, and that even without Geostigma or Sephiroth this might be the same."

Without Sephiroth or Geostigma Cloud would still be riddled with guilt over Aerith and Zack (relationship charts tell me so). He still wouldn't be able to make people 'unlose their lives'. Guilt, as we have had highlighted and reinforced multiple times. And Cloud's poor people skills, which were mentioned in OTWTAS.

Fact is, Denzel wasn’t just a random kid with Geostigma Cloud picked up off the street. Cloud specifically associated Denzel with Aerith, which is specifically why he brought Denzel back to Seventh Heaven.

That's what I said. Denzel's sole value to Cloud is making him feel close to Aerith. Cloud doesn't care about the child beyond that, hence why he left him suddenly so he could go live in Aerith's church (again!). Because Aerith is the most important thing to Cloud, to hell with the sick and dying child!

Look at the story your painting and realise how horrible it is.

The reason he cares about Denzel is written in the novel. You can't undo the past and bring the dead back, but he now has a chance to save someone, which he thinks Aerith wants him to do because he found Denzel in front of the church.

If Denzel is important because Cloud thinks Aerith brought Denzel to him, why does he then abandon Denzel when he himself gets sick? What purpose does that serve? To go live in the church where you claim he was happy? Do you think he was happy in AC while he was living in the church?

There is actually an answer for that. Cloud wants to save Denzel as a way of redeeming himself for letting other important people to him die, but when he gets sick himself he feels that he can't protect anyone else and runs away. Not because he was unhappy (until Aerith blessed him with Denzel who is promptly left behind when Cloud gets sick), but precisely because he was happy and thought that something else would come along and take that away just like it had in the past.

Where does it say Cloud's friends and family are his Promised Land?

The place where he awakens—-
That is Cloud’s Promised Land

...

When he awakes, there was his friends. There were the children, freed from their fatal illness. Tifa and Marlene, and Denzel asking for Cloud to heal his Geostigma— his family were waiting. Engulfed in celebration, he realizes where he is meant to live. He realizes that he was able to forgive himself.

The place 'he awakens' is his Promised Land, and the text talks about him awaking where he is surround by his friends and family. But instead you looked at the title (which are often poetic and flowery) and took it literally.

It's entirely possible that the heading doesn't mean a literal Promised Land, and it's just figurative. I mean, if you can read half of the stuff into the text that you have been, this isn't impossible.

There's nothing that says Cloud can 'connect' or whatever with Aerith and Zack by going to the church, there's nothing to say they will appear again. We were told they returned to the Lifestream, though. And Cloud evidently associates the church with Zack now, as in ACC he places Zack's sword in the church at the ending.

Cloud was alone during AC because he isolated himself. ('Not anymore' was just something the English dub added.) By the end of AC, he's no longer isolating himself from the living. Not because he is planning on seances in the future.

 

[BlankBeat]

Considering I have numerous people responding to me at once, it may take several days before I am able to respond. Hopefully I'll be able to respond by the end of the week

 

[Sprites]

There's nothing that says Cloud can 'connect' or whatever with Aerith and Zack by going to the church, there's nothing to say they will appear again. We were told they returned to the Lifestream, though. And Cloud evidently associates the church with Zack now, as in ACC he places Zack's sword in the church at the ending.

Exactly, there's no evidence to say he believes he can connect with them and I really don't think they ever do appear again, but Cloud of course will associate the place with the two of them, same way as many people find a place and associate it with people they've lost who were important to them and there's no denying Zack and Aerith weren't important people in Cloud's life.

Considering I have numerous people responding to me at once, it may take several days before I am able to respond. Hopefully I'll be able to respond by the end of the week

Really? several days to respond to 3 posts (4 if you include Monik XIII's one that re-quoted Kittyform and said Thankyou)

I think what you really mean is..

"I have nothing to argue right now and I need until the end of the week to think of a ridiculous counter argument to several points that I've been completely called out on and that I can't admit I'm wrong on this one"

That's a very snide remark I know but you've given me a reason to be snide right now.

 

[Strangelove]

To be honest, having them able to appear repeatedly in the future cheapens what impact their deaths had before. How is Aerith's death meant to make the player feel loss and emptiness if a year or two down the line, Cloud can see them whenever he wants by visiting the church? And what stopped this from happening before? Cloud visited the church at least once, and lived there for a short time (he left a few days before the 'present' in Episode Tifa), yet he wasn't seeing Zack or Aerith. I have see people blame his guilt for this, but that doesn't hold up when he see Aerith when he was at his lowest during AC.

I think having them appear once to ease Cloud's guilt is enough. Death might not mean they will never see each other again, but having that being constant during their lifetime makes the sadness over their deaths hollow.

 

[Dashell]

Something I've often thought about is that the "Things don't go well with Cloud and Tifa" quote gets brought up again and again to show that Cloud and Tifa could never make it and so on. But he gives them a bit of hope saying maybe the kids can help them work it out. This part is always ignored... in fact

the entire quote is always ignored. He also says, "Maybe things would have gone well with Aerith but Aerith has a heavy burden." (or whatever the exact translation is we all know what I mean)

I always found this incredibly intriguing because doesn't it mean that if Cloud and Aerith got together, Aerith would have been the problem because of her burden/responsibilities? Instead of depressed brooding Cloud that we're not familiar with, we'd have a side of Aerith we've never seen before.



I'm not really sure what this adds to the conversation if anything but... just thoughts of mine.

「現在は、親友の遺児であるマリンと共に暮らしているが…」
"Currently he is living with Marlene, the orphaned child of his best friend, however..."
(Dirge of Cerberus Official Complete Guide, p.21: http://imgur.com/qnVcLlw )

... this is also interesting because it's implied in CoD that he's not living there again. At least Denzel doesn't mention him. Also... however what?

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Sprites, that's not snide. This...

Hurfle durf durfle doof doof derp...

...would be snide. But appropriate in this instance

 

[Strangelove]

Something I find interesting is that the "Things don't go well with Cloud and Tifa" quote gets brought up again and again to show that Cloud and Tifa could never make it and so on. But he gives them a bit of hope saying maybe the kids can help them work it out. This part is always ignored... in fact

Blank has brought that up, but in the context of 'Nojima has that even Marlene and Denzel might not be able to help them' (taking the 'maybe Denzel/Marlene can help' quote and focusing on the 'might' part to make it negative).

I don't think he's ever pulled the negative slant on the 'maybe things would have gone well with Aerith' part, though.

which is strange

hmmmm

... this is also interesting because it's implied in CoD that he's not living there again. At least Denzel doesn't mention him. Also... however what?

That is a point I hadn't thought of. Maybe Denzel just doesn't care about Barret

he is only good for cockblocking cloud and tifa

 

[Octo]

Cloud and Tifa's relationship is by no means perfect, but then whose is?

Probably another topic, but i wonder how it would have gone between Cloud and Aerith.

1. he wouldnt be feeling guilty about her death

2. He would still feel guilt over Zack - possibly made worse if he knew Aerith used to be his girl

3. Aerith would fulfil Clouds need to be the hero and offer protection

4. Aerith is also very headstrong, this could cause friction if Cloud is trying to protect her all the time.

5. Would Cloud be able to recover his true self without Tifa?

6. How would Aerith feel about the real Cloud in the long term.

7. Aerith says "im alone, im the only Cetra" and when Cloud says "does that mean we cabt help?" she doesnt say anything and looks away. Her Cetra heritage could be a barrier for her in any relationship.

Just thinking aloud

 

[Dashell]

Well if we use the same logic that some cleriths use for the CoT quote, according to Nojima it would never work out and would be doomed from the get go because Aerith is the last Cetra

 

[Wolfhart]

Really? several days to respond to 3 posts (4 if you include Monik XIII's one that re-quoted Kittyform and said Thankyou)

Oh no please, I don't want to steal anybody's time, I'm just here to watch (wasting MY time, probably )

 

[Ryushikaze]

So, we're back to clinging Tifa that Cloud wants nothing to do with, again?

It always seems to return here. Sometimes it's nicer, sometimes it's more overt, but it always seems to turn into tearing down Tifa, or attempting to say Cloud didn't want to live at/ didn't belong at Seventh Heaven with Tifa despite literally ALL TEXTUAL AND METATEXTUAL EVIDENCE suggesting that's where he belonged, was happy, and had a future.


It always does. It always leads me to think there's it's a grudge against or personal dislike of her character, because it's always this, and it always involves ignoring or completely rewriting the story to happen.

So, I'm just gonna ask, Blankbeat.

The hell is your issue with Tifa?

Or, possibly more the point, the hell is your issue with Aerith not being the eternal center of Cloud's universe?

 

[Lord Kesharq]

Cloud and Tifa's relationship is by no means perfect, but then whose is?

Probably another topic, but i wonder how it would have gone between Cloud and Aerith.

1. he wouldnt be feeling guilty about her death

2. He would still feel guilt over Zack - possibly made worse if he knew Aerith used to be his girl

3. Aerith would fulfil Clouds need to be the hero and offer protection

4. Aerith is also very headstrong, this could cause friction if Cloud is trying to protect her all the time.

5. Would Cloud be able to recover his true self without Tifa?

6. How would Aerith feel about the real Cloud in the long term.

7. Aerith says "im alone, im the only Cetra" and when Cloud says "does that mean we cabt help?" she doesnt say anything and looks away. Her Cetra heritage could be a barrier for her in any relationship.

Just thinking aloud

Hmmm intresting points here lol. Personal veiws incoming!

1. he wouldnt be feeling guilty about her death: Agreed, which i believe we can all agree would be a good thing, hell it might even cheer him up a tad!


2. He would still feel guilt over Zack - possibly made worse if he knew Aerith used to be his girl: Only if she told him (cant remember if she says she was his gf to cloud in the game or not atm) if he didnt know then this would not be a problem. Tho yeah the guilt would still be there, maybe not as bad as Aerith may have been able to talk him out of feeling to bad about it somehow. (She a white mage after all, healing is her thing )


3. Aerith would fulfil Clouds need to be the hero and offer protection: Agreed, so another good thing here (at leats for cloud). Cant see that being a problem as am sure shinra would come after her again in the future (or some other form of badguys, got deepground to remember ect)


4. Aerith is also very headstrong, this could cause friction if Cloud is trying to protect her all the time.: Unsure on this one, i guess it might do in the long run but i cant see it being too bit a issue, hell i think it might be a good thing in a way as she will at least be able to keep cloud in his place.


5. Would Cloud be able to recover his true self without Tifa? : Going to go with yes on this one, after all Aerith had a possivite effect on him, and given time am sure she could have helped him recover his true self, after all it would seem she was helping him along in the game during there time together, so i cant see why in the end it would have changed.


6. How would Aerith feel about the real Cloud in the long term. : Unsure on this one, would guess everything would be ok and she would like the real Cloud like she does the one she knows when she is with him in the game. after all he was slowly recovering then and she was not going off him as fair as we can tell. So yeah while i guess this would not lead to problems and would be fine am going to say unsure just encase iv missed something lol.


7. Aerith says "im alone, im the only Cetra" and when Cloud says "does that mean we camt help?" she doesnt say anything and looks away. Her Cetra heritage could be a barrier for her in any relationship. : Dont argee, while maybe at first this might be a small problem, i can see it becoming less so in time as things changed and they moved on with there realionship (and maybe had a child or two, meaning she would not then be the only Cetra). After all they do say love congors all .


Wow this is my longest post on here to date lol. Just my views/ideas on these points. Am sure there will be people that disargee with some or all of what i said but yeah am just giving my 6.10 am views in reply to the points asked lol.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

2. He would still feel guilt over Zack - possibly made worse if he knew Aerith used to be his girl: Only if she told him (cant remember if she says she was his gf to cloud in the game or not atm) if he didnt know then this would not be a problem.

It's probably safe to assume he would know, if only because he would still want to honor Zack by placing the Buster Sword on his grave and -- assuming Aerith didn't make the connection herself -- he would come up in conversation somewhere.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Oh, Zack's death definitely would have come up. It had to have, because, you know, Zack's death affects Cloud as much as Aerith's. I'd actually be curious to see that scene, under the assumption Aerith lived, just to see how it'd go down. With or without the idea of C/A in a romance, the 'Sorry I quasi impersonated your dead boyfriend/ my best friend when we first met' conversation would be fascinating to watch.