The Love Triangle Debate: Another Turn in the Cycle

[Dashell]

I've run around in Cloud's outfit and I heard something mentioned about a promise land (are they looking for a promised land or something to that effect). People in Luxerion

Up until there, I forgot we were talking about a game, and I seriously thought you just put on a Cloud outfit, ran outside, and just took a walk and people were yelling things about the Promised Land to you

I don't know. Some cameo stuff (e.g. the Tactics stuff) I absolutely see, but I've never found this one very convincing.

Probably because of "The Promised Land, I think I can meet here there"

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Probably because of "The Promised Land, I think I can meet here there"

I'm talking about the costumes themselves. I haven't heard what the folks in Luxerion say, so I can't comment on that yet.

EDIT: Apparently the exact line is "Are they searching for the promised land?"

 

[BlankBeat]

That damn bed argument again. I really don't think Square put it there with the intention of telling us about Cloud and Tifa's relationship. They were probably just putting junk in the room and along came the bed. It's as irrelevant as the tire and boxes in the room.

I forget, but do we ever see Denzel and Marlene sleeping in their beds? Don't we assume they sleep in their beds because the beds are found in their room?

do couples have to do coupley things 100% of the time in order to be couples? I sorta feel like this is the standard with Cloud and Tifa. That if they aren't the lovey dovey perfect couple ALL the time, they can't be a couple at all. Or if it's not THEIR kids they're raising then it can't be that they're together. All the good times are thrown out the window cause Cloud ran off like a dork.

You are missing the point. I don't expect Cloud and Tifa to be doing coupley things 100% of the time. But what's even *ONE* example of coupley behavior between Cloud and Tifa after FFVII ends? Do they have *ANY* romantic scenes or romantic dialogue after FFVII ends?

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Your argument only places the trio back in the largest city in the world. Not specifically living together in that city. What you're arguing here amounts to arguing that Wakka and Lulu living together after FFX isn't indicative of how they feel about one another because they're both from Besaid and "of course they would go back there."

Cloud explicitly says that he believes his new life will succeed because he has Tifa with him. Whether you see that as romantic or no, he is with her because he wants to be and because of what she means to him. Not because they were both in Midgar at the start of the original game. Not because their hometown was destroyed. Not because he has nowhere else to go (he actually has plenty of other places to go).

He chooses to remain with Tifa because she is Tifa. He wanted her -- specifically her -- by his side and says so. That is inarguable.

I, personally, just think it makes the most sense for those three to return to Midgar because that is where we found them at the start of FFVII. It's sort of like the remaining members of AVALANCHE returning to their old stomping grounds.

Sure, Tifa is part of the reason Cloud returns to Midgar. But she's not the only reason, either.

Barret, Tifa, and Cloud return to Midgar as a trio. The fact that SE clumped all three of them together, and placed them back in Midgar --the place we were introduced to them, and the place that originally had Seventh Heaven-- suggests Midgar is the natural place for Cloud, Tifa, and Barret to return. If Cloud and Tifa had been alone, without the presence of Barret, I'd be more inclined to agree with you. But SE clumped Cloud, Tifa, and Barret together for a reason.

Fact is, Cloud doesn't say, "Let's go back to Midgar *BECAUSE* we have one another." Cloud never says it like that. He says that things will be different now that he has Tifa, yes. But I think he means things will be different anywhere and everywhere now that he has Tifa to rely on, not necessarily in Midgar exclusively.

At all"? You can't put characters with verified romantic feelings for one another in a situation where they are raising children together and discussing what it means to be a family and not think that is meant to be analyzed in terms of conventional understanding of "family." If you aren't considering the blatant associations of their situation with ordinary families, even though it gets brought up by the characters themselves, you aren't doing what the author is asking you to do.
If it were Aerith in this situation with Cloud, I would be saying the same thing: it's significant. Because it would be.

Actually, I *AM* analyzing their relationship by looking at what Tifa has stated directly. Tifa is the other half of this assumed romantic relationship, and her statements and thoughts carry a lot of weight. So when I consider that Tifa, in particular, says her and Cloud aren't a "real" family, and that she doesn't know if Cloud loves her, I am led to believe that, at the very least, what is going on between them cannot definitively be called a romantic relationship.

Tifa's direct statements, in combination with the lack of any clear examples of romantic behavior between Cloud and Tifa, make it pretty hard to say with absolute certainty they are in a romantic relationship.

Furthermore, SE has not done with Cloud and Tifa what they have done with all other main FF couples, which is give them a romantic description/mutual favor arrows on at least one occasion. To me, SE has remained very ambiguous about Cloud and Tifa's relationship status. One could view them as in a romantic relationship, but one could just as easily not view them as being in a romantic relationship.

for the love triangle itself, it is not "unsolved" as you say. Cloud loved both women. There. That's it. It's done. It's resolved. What is left?

I guess when I think of a love triangle that has been "solved," it typically means one pairing is canon and the other is not. I guess it's just unusual that both pairings are "canon," so sometimes I may word things in ways that may be confusing.

, but what's happening right now is that you are trying to dismiss and diminish the literary significance of the circumstances devised for the characters because of equally mundane in-universe details.

You're supposed to be thinking about them as a family and what that means, as well as it what it says about family in the real world. The theme of the film is family. Kitase (pretty sure it was him) said as much.

What I'm saying is that Marlene's line carries a lot of significance because of Cloud and Tifa's perplexed reactions. If Cloud and Tifa didn't consider themselves a family until Marlene said it, that is *VERY* telling, IMO. It basically means Cloud and Tifa didn't see themselves as belonging in a family together, which means this family has nothing to do with their assumed romantic relationship.

Tifa later confirms this isn't a traditional family because she admits they aren't a "real" family. In a way, Tifa nukes the idea that Cloud and Tifa are in this family because of their romantic feelings for one another. Not only does she admit they aren' a "real" family, but she doesn't know if Cloud loves her. All of this makes it hard to definitively claim they are in a romantic relationship, especially with the lack of any explicit romantic moments and definitive statements by SE.

I understand your insistence on pointing out that the circumstances behind the creation of the family are not inherently romantic (a valid point), just as I see the need to clarify that Barret's presence doesn't preclude romance within the family (equally valid).

OK. So if you agree the circumstances that led to the formation of this family had nothing to do with Cloud and Tifa's romance, then what is the evidence of a romantic relationship between Cloud and Tifa? It seems many Cloti's just leave it at, "Cloud and Tifa formed a family together, therefore they are in a romantic relationship". That's the primary piece of evidence many Cloti's use to prove Cloud and Tifa are in a romantic relationship. But if you agree the family had nothing to do with their romance, what other evidence do you have that they are in a romantic relationship? Other main FF couples have undeniable evidence, what is the evidence supporting Cloud and Tifa?

However, we all already agreed that Cloud loved both women. A number of us have even agreed that it can fairly be interpreted that Cloud and Tifa floundered through a prospective relationship that may not actually take flight until after Advent Children.

Ok. So if you agree that it can be interpreted that Cloud and Tifa floundered through a prospective relationship that might not have taken flight until after AC, what is the evidence that a relationship exists between Cloud and Tifa after AC?

I guess the reason I harp on this so much is because it seems many Cloti's think their pairing is more canon than Clerith because Cloud and Tifa became boyfriend/girlfriend. The typical evidence used to support this is the fact that Cloud and Tifa are living together and formed a family together. However, both living together and this family had nothing directly to do with their assumed romance. So if both of those things cannot be used to definitively prove Cloud and Tifa are in a romantic relationship, what is the definitive evidence that Cloud and Tifa are in a romantic relationship?

Until we see something definitive, like a kiss, an "I love you," or them sleeping in the same bed, isn't is simply speculation that Cloud and Tifa are in a romantic relationship?

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EDIT:

As for the Promised Land reference in FFXIII...

SE definitively views Cloud's quest for the Promised Land as a reference to his desire to be with Aerith. In Final Fantasy Tactics, Cloud was searching for the Promised Land and is seen in an obvious cameo with Aerith. However, one needs to look no further than Cloud's statement at the end of Final Fantasy VII:

An answer from the Planet…
the Promised Land…
I think I can meet her… there

Both Tactics, and Cloud's statement at the end of FFVII, make it clear that Cloud searching for the Promised Land is directly related to his desire to re-unite with Aerith. FFXIII is yet another reference to Cloud's desire to re-unite with Aerith in the Promised Land.

 

[Sprites]

I forget, but do we ever see Denzel and Marlene sleeping in their beds? Don't we assume they sleep in their beds because the beds are found in their room?

Denzel is in his bed right at the start of Advent Children, with Marlene standing, watching over him and worrying over his Geostigma.

I guess the reason I harp on this so much is because it seems many Cloti's think their pairing is more canon than Clerith because Cloud and Tifa became boyfriend/girlfriend. The typical evidence used to support this is the fact that Cloud and Tifa are living together and formed a family together. However, both living together and this family had nothing directly to do with their assumed romance. So if both of those things cannot be used to definitively prove Cloud and Tifa are in a romantic relationship, what is the definitive evidence that Cloud and Tifa are in a romantic relationship?

Wait a minute, you're acknowledging that Cloud and Tifa became Boyfriend and Girlfriend but can't acknowledge they're in a relationship?? how does that even make sense to you?

As for the Promised Land reference in FFXIII...

SE definitively views Cloud's quest for the Promised Land as a reference to his desire to be with Aerith. In Final Fantasy Tactics, Cloud was searching for the Promised Land and is seen in an obvious cameo with Aerith. However, one needs to look no further than Cloud's statement at the end of Final Fantasy VII:

An answer from the Planet…
the Promised Land…
I think I can meet her… there

Both Tactics, and Cloud's statement at the end of FFVII, make it clear that Cloud searching for the Promised Land is directly related to his desire to re-unite with Aerith. FFXIII is yet another reference to Cloud's desire to re-unite with Aerith in the Promised Land.

See this is what I don't get, it's one line from Cloud at the end of the game and there's too much set by it in terms of a romantic argument for CloudxAerith, when I really don't see it that way. I wouldn't exactly say Cloud had a 'quest' to go and find the promised land either, I don't ever see him mention once that he's deciding to go on a journey to find it, does he ever mention it in AC, why no I believe he doesn't, Sephiroth talks more about The Promised Land than Cloud ever does.

Also I don't know where you're pulling the whole Cloud is searching for the Promised land in Tactics because well, he's not and in his brief meeting with Tactics' Aerith he doesn't exactly say anything to her does he, you'd think he would after seeing her again but even after she asks if he reminds her of someone, he denies it and then never speaks to her again.


I have a question for you BB, why does Cloud wanting to meet Aerith again in the Promised Land have to have a romantic connotation, why can't it be that he wants to meet her again to apologise for her death or as he states in AC, be forgiven for her death, afterall we know that Cloud feels an immense amount of guilt that she died in front of him and he couldn't do anything to save her. Then there's this line from Tactics actually that I'm going to use to back up this, that Cloud uses when he abandons the team if his Bravery is low:

"I couldn't even save one girl. What do you expect from me?"

Sounds like he's feeling pretty guilty hmm?

In regards to that line in LR, I don't know much about LR but I assumed because Lightning is tasked with bringing souls to the New world, that The Promised Land reference was put in as a cameo for her wearing FFVII outfits but also as a reference to her task? I dunno I don't know much about the game, but to me that was the more the logical reason rather than a romantic context.

 

[Dashell]

You are missing the point. I don't expect Cloud and Tifa to be doing coupley things 100% of the time. But what's even *ONE* example of coupley behavior between Cloud and Tifa after FFVII ends? Do they have *ANY* romantic scenes or romantic dialogue after FFVII ends?

Generally you won't say to someone, "I'll succeed cause I have you this time" when they're just a friend, but maybe it's just me.

BTW I know it was just a mistake but I said those first two quotes, not Tres, unless tres has a boyfriend he's hiding from us. FESS UP TRESS

I guess the reason I harp on this so much is because it seems many Cloti's think their pairing is more canon than Clerith because Cloud and Tifa became boyfriend/girlfriend.

What a bunch of dorks! JUST BECAUSE CLOUD AND TIFA BECOME BOYFRIEND AND GIRLFRIEND DOESN'T MEAN THEY'RE BOYFRIEND GIRLFRIEND STUPID CLOTI.. wait

 

[null]

I guess the reason I harp on this so much is because it seems many Cloti's think their pairing is more canon than Clerith because Cloud and Tifa became boyfriend/girlfriend.

 

[BlankBeat]

Generally you won't say to someone, "I'll succeed cause I have you this time" when they're just a friend, but maybe it's just me.

In both the HA and LA Highwind scene this conversation takes place between Cloud and Tifa:

(Cloud stands.)
Cloud "We'd better go."
(She turns to him and makes a pleading gesture.)
Tifa "But, I still...!?"
(He turns to face her, shaking his head.)
Cloud "It's all right, Tifa. You said so yourself yesterday."
"At least we don't have to go on alone."
(A pause. Tifa nods)
Tifa "Yes... That's right!"
(He nods)
Cloud "Okay! Let's go!"

Cloud and Tifa say this at the end of both the HA and LA Highwind scene. Because they say this during the LA Highwind scene, it is not romantic. They're essentially saying that they don't have to go on alone because they have each other, which is also what they say to one another in CoT. In other words, this type of omission is not necessarily romantic because SE includes it in both the platonic and romantic versions of the Highwind scene.

What a bunch of dorks! JUST BECAUSE CLOUD AND TIFA BECOME BOYFRIEND AND GIRLFRIEND DOESN'T MEAN THEY'RE BOYFRIEND GIRLFRIEND STUPID CLOTI.. wait

Sadly, there is no definitive proof Cloud and Tifa become boyfriend/girlfriend.

--------------------

Denzel is in his bed right at the start of Advent Children, with Marlene standing, watching over him and worrying over his Geostigma.

Thanks

Wait a minute, you're acknowledging that Cloud and Tifa became Boyfriend and Girlfriend but can't acknowledge they're in a relationship?? how does that even make sense to you?

Apparently you didn't read my next sentence...

"...many Cloti's think their pairing is more canon than Clerith because Cloud and Tifa became boyfriend/girlfriend. The typical evidence used to support this is the fact that Cloud and Tifa are living together and formed a family together."

So no. I'm not saying Cloud and Tifa became boyfriend/girlfriend. In-fact, I'm saying the exact opposite because when one looks at the formation of this family and the living arrangements, it is *NOT* indicative of a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship.

Also I don't know where you're pulling the whole Cloud is searching for the Promised land in Tactics because well, he's not and in his brief meeting with Tactics' Aerith he doesn't exactly say anything to her does he, you'd think he would after seeing her again but even after she asks if he reminds her of someone, he denies it and then never speaks to her again.

Here are some quotes that you may find informative:

Final Fantasy Tactics:
Cloud: "My fingers are tingling... My eyes...they're burning."
Final Fantasy VII:
Cloud: "My fingers are tingling. My mouth is dry. My eyes are burning!"

Final Fantasy Tactics:
Cloud: "I lost...a very important thing..."
Final Fantasy VII:
Aerith was lost to Cloud in Final Fantasy VII.

Final Fantasy Tactics:
Cloud: "Ever since, I've been lost. Who am I? What should I do?
What about this pain..."
Final Fantasy VII:
Cloud: What about US... what are WE supposed to do?"
Cloud: "What about my pain?"

Final Fantasy Tactics:
Cloud: "Must go...to the Promised Land."
Final Fantasy VII:
Cloud: "I think I can meet her... there."

So when you say you don't believe Cloud has ever had a "quest" to search for the Promised Land, well, he says in Tactics that he, "Must go...to the Promised Land."

So yes, contrary to what you've stated, Cloud *IS* trying to search for the Promised Land by his own omission.

Oh, and isn't Cloud the only character able to equip a ribbon in FFT?

I have a question for you BB, why does Cloud wanting to meet Aerith again in the Promised Land have to have a romantic connotation, why can't it be that he wants to meet her again to apologise for her death or as he states in AC, be forgiven for her death, afterall we know that Cloud feels an immense amount of guilt that she died in front of him and he couldn't do anything to save her. Then there's this line from Tactics actually that I'm going to use to back up this, that Cloud uses when he abandons the team if his Bravery is low:

Sounds like he's feeling pretty guilty hmm?

In regards to that line in LR, I don't know much about LR but I assumed because Lightning is tasked with bringing souls to the New world, that The Promised Land reference was put in as a cameo for her wearing FFVII outfits but also as a reference to her task? I dunno I don't know much about the game, but to me that was the more the logical reason rather than a romantic context.

I view Cloud wanting to re-unite with Aerith in the Promised Land as romantic because of Cloud's romantic feelings for Aerith, but you are free to view it as non-romantic. Cloud's love for Aerith is the root of his guilt, IMO.

Given Cloud's two statements:

1. "An answer from the Planet…
the Promised Land…
I think I can meet her… there"

2. "Must go...to the Promised Land."

...it seems clear the reference in Lightening Returns is to Cloud's stated desire to return to the Promised Land to reunite with Aerith.

 

[BlankBeat]

Wow. Are people really going to continue to ignore the sentence that directly follows what I said?

"I guess the reason I harp on this so much is because it seems many Cloti's think their pairing is more canon than Clerith because Cloud and Tifa became boyfriend/girlfriend. The typical evidence used to support this is the fact that Cloud and Tifa are living together and formed a family together. However, both living together and this family had nothing directly to do with their assumed romance. So if both of those things cannot be used to definitively prove Cloud and Tifa are in a romantic relationship, what is the definitive evidence that Cloud and Tifa are in a romantic relationship?"

Context is everything.

 

[null]

You have to admit, it reads like the mother of all Freudian slips.

 

[BlankBeat]

ROFL.

I can't believe people are actually taking my one line out of context and trying to say I said Cloud and Tifa became boyfriend/girlfriend. Have you not been reading the last few pages of this thread? Did you not read the very next sentence of my post?

Disgusting that people would take my sentence out of context, post a mocking/disrespectful gif, when literally the next few sentences I wrote say that although Cloti's use the living situation/family as evidence of them being boyfriend/girlfriend, both of those things have *NOTHING* to do with their assumed romantic relationship and cannot be used as evidence.

You have to admit, it reads like the mother of all Freudian slips.

Uhhh...I said:

"I guess the reason I harp on this so much is because it seems *MANY CLOTI'S THINK* their pairing is more canon than Clerith because Cloud and Tifa became boyfriend/girlfriend."

Yes. Cloti's think their pairing is more canon than Clerith.
Yes. Cloti's think Cloud and Tifa became boyfriend/girlfriend.

So either it was unclear, or you are just trying to be obnoxious.

I guess I could have said this:

"I guess the reason I harp on this so much is because it seems many Cloti's their pairing is more canon than Clerith because **THEY THINK** Cloud and Tifa became boyfriend/girlfriend."

But I didn't think I needed to be that redundant, especially when it only takes reading the next few sentences of my post to realize exactly what I meant.

Can't believe people would actually take the time to take one of my lines out of context and make a mocking post about it. Seems like unnecessary behavior that only derails discussion.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Okay, I think we can all move on from the "just because they became boyfriend/girlfriend" thing. BlankBeat clarified what he meant. I misunderstood it too until I read the rest of the paragraph.

For clarification, BlankBeat, I don't think everyone who asked you about it was mocking you. I know I misunderstood for a moment as well.

Fact is, Cloud doesn't say, "Let's go back to Midgar *BECAUSE* we have one another." Cloud never says it like that. He says that things will be different now that he has Tifa, yes. But I think he means things will be different anywhere and everywhere now that he has Tifa to rely on, not necessarily in Midgar exclusively.

That was my point. That their going to Midgar was incidental to Cloud, Tifa and Barret still being together. He wanted her at the least with him wherever.

Actually, I *AM* analyzing their relationship by looking at what Tifa has stated directly. Tifa is the other half of this assumed romantic relationship, and her statements and thoughts carry a lot of weight. So when I consider that Tifa, in particular, says her and Cloud aren't a "real" family, and that she doesn't know if Cloud loves her, I am led to believe that, at the very least, what is going on between them cannot definitively be called a romantic relationship.

Fair enough.

OK. So if you agree the circumstances that led to the formation of this family had nothing to do with Cloud and Tifa's romance, then what is the evidence of a romantic relationship between Cloud and Tifa? It seems many Cloti's just leave it at, "Cloud and Tifa formed a family together, therefore they are in a romantic relationship". That's the primary piece of evidence many Cloti's use to prove Cloud and Tifa are in a romantic relationship. But if you agree the family had nothing to do with their romance, what other evidence do you have that they are in a romantic relationship? Other main FF couples have undeniable evidence, what is the evidence supporting Cloud and Tifa?

Well, I think we've all been over the data enough to know what one might think points there. It mainly comes down to whether one thinks it took at least one of them that long to come out and say it, and that neither could muster the courage even in the happy times.

I feel like -- based on their dialogue in Episode:Tifa -- that we're seeing them discuss it then. Given their feelings and what happened that night under the Highwind, the emotional weight of those discussions couldn't have been lost on them. But I do think it's reasonable to interpret what follows as portraying what they ended up doing as falling short of what they set out to do.

Anything beyond that is a matter of semantics and unknown stuff that I really don't care to analyze -- e.g. what qualifies as boyfriend/girlfriend, whether they consistently saw one another in that light, etc.

I guess when I think of a love triangle that has been "solved," it typically means one pairing is canon and the other is not. I guess it's just unusual that both pairings are "canon," so sometimes I may word things in ways that may be confusing.

Fair enough.

So, where is the discussion right now? Are we still debating whether the formation of the family was inherently romantic or have we moved elsewhere? I feel that the topic has meandered.

 

[null]

What I'm really chewing my gum at is the way "canon" is used around here. I've never heard of character interactions from the same body of work described as "more" or "less" canon. Or for that matter, being "non-canon" and "canon" from the same work.

This is actually relevant. Where is the discussion right now? Well, everything seems to revolve around this notion of "canon".

What does canon mean?

How does one definitively know what has the status of "canon"?

How is something "more" or "less" canon?

Who in this thread is even arguing that something is "more" or "less" canon?

I think all of these questions need to be answered.

 

[BlankBeat]

For clarification, BlankBeat, I don't think everyone who asked you about it was mocking you. I know I misunderstood for a moment as well.

I find it annoying when one of my sentences is removed from its context in order to post a mocking/condescending gif, especially when the author knows damn well that's not what I meant. And even if the author didn't know what I meant, he could have asked for clarification instead of posting an obnoxious gif.

Well, I think we've all been over the data enough to know what one might think points there. It mainly comes down to whether one thinks it took at least one of them that long to come out and say it, and that neither could muster the courage even in the happy times.

I feel like -- based on their dialogue in Episode:Tifa -- that we're seeing them discuss it then. Given their feelings and what happened that night under the Highwind, the emotional weight of those discussions couldn't have been lost on them. But I do think it's reasonable to interpret what follows as portraying what they ended up doing as falling short of what they set out to do.

Anything beyond that is a matter of semantics and unknown stuff that I really don't care to analyze -- e.g. what qualifies as boyfriend/girlfriend, whether they consistently saw one another in that light, etc.

So, where is the discussion right now? Are we still debating whether the formation of the family was inherently romantic or have we moved elsewhere? I feel that the topic has meandered.

I really appreciate knowing that you understand where I'm coming from in regards to the family/living situation not being a direct result of Cloud and Tifa's (assumed) romantic relationship. I just needed some acknowledgment, I guess.

I've heard over and over again that because Cloud and Tifa live together and formed a family together, it is undeniable evidence that they are in a romantic relationship. But as I have tried to show over and over again, neither the living situation nor the family had anything to do with their (assumed) romance.

I guess I haven't seen anything undeniable from SE that makes Cloud and Tifa boyfriend/girlfriend. In-fact, I've seen a lot of evidence that suggests their mutual feelings never evolved to that of being boyfriend/girlfriend.

I know you personally believe the question at the heart of the LTD is, "Who does Cloud love?" and your answer to that question is Cloud loved both Aerith and Tifa.

But it still seems as if (some) Cloti's act as if their pairing is the true or canon pairing of FFVII because Aerith is dead and Cloud and Tifa are living together/raising a family. I understand that on the surface that makes sense -- romantic couples typically live together and raise families together. But the fact is, we don't know the sleeping arrangements at Seventh Heaven. We see a bed in Cloud's room. We never see Cloud and Tifa sleeping together. We also know Cloud and Tifa are perplexed when they are referred to as a family. Tifa doesn't consider them a "real" family. Tifa doesn't know if Cloud loves her. And there is absolutely zero romantic behavior shown between Cloud and Tifa (no kissing, hugging, sleeping together, etc.) Plus, SE doesn't treat Cloud and Tifa like other main canon couples in terms of giving them at least one romantic description/mutual favor arrows.

The impression I get from a lot of Cloti's is that they feel Cloud loved both Aerith and Tifa, but ended up with Tifa because Aerith is dead, so therefore Cloti is the "ultimate" or "true" pairing of FFVII. Sadly, I don't see how the evidence we've been presented with is so clear-cut and undeniable. It's circumstantial and ambiguous at best. Plus, I really think Tifa not knowing if Cloud loves her tells us that a relationship hasn't really worked out between them.

My perspective is that Cloud loved both, wasn't able to make a relationship work with Tifa, and still wonders if things would have worked out with Aerith.

I guess we really need to see how things are between Cloud and Tifa post-AC to answer anything definitively. I personally get frustrated when Cloti's act as if it's so obvious Cloud and Tifa are boyfriend and girlfriend when all we really see are signals that a relationship between them *IS NOT* working out.

Why are Cloti's so sure Cloud and Tifa are boyfriend/girlfriend when SE hasn't declared them as such, and when there has been no definitive romantic moment between them post-FFVII?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I find it annoying when one of my sentences is removed from its context in order to post a mocking/condescending gif, especially when the author knows damn well that's not what I meant. And even if the author didn't know what I meant, he could have asked for clarification instead of posting an obnoxious gif.

Well, everyone has been advised to let that topic go, so that should be the end of it.

I really appreciate knowing that you understand where I'm coming from in regards to the family/living situation not being a direct result of Cloud and Tifa's (assumed) romantic relationship. I just needed some acknowledgment, I guess.

You're welcome. I think I misunderstood you for a while myself, but I get what you're saying now.

I've heard over and over again that because Cloud and Tifa live together and formed a family together, it is undeniable evidence that they are in a romantic relationship. But as I have tried to show over and over again, neither the living situation nor the family had anything to do with their (assumed) romance.

Right, it is more complicated than that. This difficulty adjusting to normal life and maintaining ordinary connections with other people in general and each other in particular is a defining aspect of both Cloud and Tifa, despite their importance to one another.

As you said:

But it still seems as if (some) Cloti's act as if their pairing is the true or canon pairing of FFVII because Aerith is dead and Cloud and Tifa are living together/raising a family. I understand that on the surface that makes sense -- romantic couples typically live together and raise families together. But the fact is, we don't know the sleeping arrangements at Seventh Heaven. We see a bed in Cloud's room. We never see Cloud and Tifa sleeping together. We also know Cloud and Tifa are perplexed when they are referred to as a family. Tifa doesn't consider them a "real" family. Tifa doesn't know if Cloud loves her. And there is absolutely zero romantic behavior shown between Cloud and Tifa (no kissing, hugging, sleeping together, etc.) Plus, SE doesn't treat Cloud and Tifa like other main canon couples in terms of giving them at least one romantic description/mutual favor arrows.

There is a lot going on beneath the surface, and certainly we are meant to weigh all that every bit as much as we are to weigh those overt factors.

The impression I get from a lot of Cloti's is that they feel Cloud loved both Aerith and Tifa, but ended up with Tifa because Aerith is dead, so therefore Cloti is the "ultimate" or "true" pairing of FFVII. Sadly, I don't see how the evidence we've been presented with is so clear-cut and undeniable. It's circumstantial and ambiguous at best. Plus, I really think Tifa not knowing if Cloud loves her tells us that a relationship hasn't really worked out between them.

My perspective is that Cloud loved both, wasn't able to make a relationship work with Tifa, and still wonders if things would have worked out with Aerith.

I guess we really need to see how things are between Cloud and Tifa post-AC to answer anything definitively. I personally get frustrated when Cloti's act as if it's so obvious Cloud and Tifa are boyfriend and girlfriend when all we really see are signals that a relationship between them *IS NOT* working out.

Why are Cloti's so sure Cloud and Tifa are boyfriend/girlfriend when SE hasn't declared them as such, and when there has been no definitive romantic moment between them post-FFVII?

If I had to point to two specific things that I believe incline many fans to feel this way (including myself), they would be a) that for a while Tifa does settle on the notion that they're a normal family and b) that their various problems are characteristic of an imperiled relationship. Whether the latter bodes poorly for the future isn't seen as relevant in terms of whether what they had before the problems came to a head was an actual relationship.

Does that make sense?

Of course, Tifa's resignation to not being a real family isn't irrelevant, but one is left to wonder if she has come to feel that way because of Cloud's well-intentioned but putzy behavior. At the least, he still considers them a family. When Tifa makes her self-defeating remark about how "I guess that only works for real families," Cloud tells her that he's not fit to help his family. It seems like he's saying "The problem isn't with our family. It's with me. You're all better off without me. I don't deserve this life we had here."

It's extremely subtle, as it was meant to be, but I think those elements point to a relationship, albeit one riddled with personal and interpersonal issues that were keeping it from growing.

I don't think our views of Cloud's feelings are all that different. We both think he loved both women, failed to make a relationship with Tifa work the way it should in the time leading up to AC, and that he will always be left to wonder how differently things would have been had Aerith lived. Certainly Tifa wonders about this too.

Probably the biggest difference in our views of this is in how optimistic we are about their future. I feel pretty good about it, though I think there's always going to be a degree of distance there, because that's just how the two of them are. They're both painfully introverted. They would be one of those couples that need frequent alone time (from each other).

 

[Dashell]

Okay incoming big post here on...

Okay, I think we can all move on from the "just because they became boyfriend/girlfriend" thing. BlankBeat clarified what he meant. I misunderstood it too until I read the rest of the paragraph.

... okay never mind...



Kidding
But yeah sorry Blankbeat, I didn't mean to pick on you, it's just the statement read kind of funny.

What I'm really chewing my gum at is the way "canon" is used around here. I've never heard of character interactions from the same body of work described as "more" or "less" canon. Or for that matter, being "non-canon" and "canon" from the same work.

Yeah I hate this too. Then like suddenly when you say something is "canon" it's wrong to say that but saying something is intended or official is okay... It doesn't matter how you word it, if you're arguing for one pairing to be intended or official you're arguing which is canon.

I really appreciate knowing that you understand where I'm coming from in regards to the family/living situation not being a direct result of Cloud and Tifa's (assumed) romantic relationship. I just needed some acknowledgment, I guess.

the thing is I've always used their living situation as just ONE Of the many reasons they're a couple. But I say to use all the evidence together. I have a Cloti perspective with a lot of official quotes and what not but whenever I post it, it gets picked apart little by little. "Well THIS doesn't make Cloti canon because of X" "THAT doesn't make Cloti canon because of Y"... and yeah, that ONE THING doesn't make them canon but when you look at the entire thing as a GROUP and as a whole, then you have something.

That's what always bothers me. When I see stuff like, "Clotis think that Cloud and Tifa are a couple just because they live together."

It's like "No it's cause of like 100 other things PLUS THAT!"


As for "Cloud only ended up with Tifa cause Aerith died...." well yes and no. I mean I think the lifestream event is what really made Cloud choose Tifa. I don't buy that the entire scene is about Cloud and Tifa like some people say, but that's when Cloud realized Tifa was the one he wanted to be with. So for me, it depends on that.

And that scene probably would not have happened had Aerith not died... or maybe it would have, but it's more than just "Because Aerith died"

 

[BlankBeat]

If I had to point to two specific things that I believe incline many fans to feel this way (including myself), they would be a) that for a while Tifa does settle on the notion that they're a normal family and b) that their various problems are characteristic of an imperiled relationship.

I always hear Cloti's say Cloud and Tifa's relationship is *REALISTIC* because it shows that couples go through problems. However, what I find equally *UNREALISTIC* is the lack of a honeymoon stage. In other words, as much as Cloti's say problems are a sign of a realistic relationship, I'd argue that having virtually zero romantic/physical infatuation is equally unrealistic of a romantic couple.

Of course, Tifa's resignation to not being a real family isn't irrelevant, but one is left to wonder if she has come to feel that way because of Cloud's well-intentioned but putzy behavior. At the least, he still considers them a family. When Tifa makes her self-defeating remark about how "I guess that only works for real families," Cloud tells her that he's not fit to help his family. It seems like he's saying "The problem isn't with our family. It's with me. You're all better off without me. I don't deserve this life we had here."

Right. So their relationship (whatever it may have been) is confirmed to not be working. Tifa realizes they aren't a "real" family, and doesn't know if Cloud loves her. Tifa's statements prove, IMO, that any notion of an established, long-lasting romantic relationship between her and Cloud is uncertain, damaged, and broken.

I don't think our views of Cloud's feelings are all that different. We both think he loved both women, failed to make a relationship with Tifa work the way it should in the time leading up to AC, and that he will always be left to wonder how differently things would have been had Aerith lived. Certainly Tifa wonders about this too.

Agreed. So what is with the insistent that it is *PROVEN* that Cloud and Tifa are in a romantic relationship during AC, despite evidence that can very clearly suggest they are *NOT* in a romantic relationship?

Probably the biggest difference in our views of this is in how optimistic we are about their future. I feel pretty good about it, though I think there's always going to be a degree of distance there, because that's just how the two of them are. They're both painfully introverted. They would be one of those couples that need frequent alone time (from each other).

I guess neither of us will ever know until we see how Cloud and Tifa interact post-AC.

--------------------

the thing is I've always used their living situation as just ONE Of the many reasons they're a couple. But I say to use all the evidence together. I have a Cloti perspective with a lot of official quotes and what not but whenever I post it, it gets picked apart little by little. "Well THIS doesn't make Cloti canon because of X" "THAT doesn't make Cloti canon because of Y"... and yeah, that ONE THING doesn't make them canon but when you look at the entire thing as a GROUP and as a whole, then you have something.

That's what always bothers me. When I see stuff like, "Clotis think that Cloud and Tifa are a couple just because they live together."

It's like "No it's cause of like 100 other things PLUS THAT!"

From my own experience, Cloti's seem to use the living/family situation as the *PRIMARY* reason to *PROVE* Cloud and Tifa are in a romantic relationship (ie: boyfriend/girlfriend). But neither the family, nor the living situation, came about as a result of their romantic feelings. So, how can either be used to prove a romantic relationship between Cloud and Tifa?

For instance, I agree you can *ASSUME* Cloud and Tifa sleep together because they expressed mutual interest to each other. But given all the issues between Cloud and Tifa, why is it not equally reasonable to think Cloud sleeps in the bed found in his room?

The point I'm making is that nothing is *DEFINITIVE*. So why are Cloti's so insistent about saying Cloud and Tifa are unequivocally and undeniably in a romantic relationship (even though there is tons of evidence that also supports the belief that a relationship did *NOT* work out between them?) One of the biggest reasons being that Tifa, herself, doesn't know if Cloud loves her. Oh, and both Cloud and Tifa become perplexed when Marlene refers to them as a family, in addition to the constant fighting/communication issues we see between them. All of this boils over when Tifa admits they are not a "real" family.

As I said to Tres, as much as Cloti's say problems are a sign of a realistic relationship, I'd also argue that having virtually zero romantic/physical infatuation is equally unrealistic of a romantic couple.

As for "Cloud only ended up with Tifa cause Aerith died...." well yes and no. I mean I think the lifestream event is what really made Cloud choose Tifa. I don't buy that the entire scene is about Cloud and Tifa like some people say, but that's when Cloud realized Tifa was the one he wanted to be with. So for me, it depends on that.

And that scene probably would not have happened had Aerith not died... or maybe it would have, but it's more than just "Because Aerith died"

I agree Cloud and Tifa grew close during the lifestream event, but I also believe Cloud and Aerith developed a closeness of equal merit. SE refers to Cloud and Aerith's bond as "special," in addition to pointing out that Tifa grows jealous of their bond in both FFVII and AC. Like everyone has pointed out, we have no idea what would have taken place had Aerith lived.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I always hear Cloti's say Cloud and Tifa's relationship is *REALISTIC* because it shows that couples go through problems. However, what I find equally *UNREALISTIC* is the lack of a honeymoon stage. In other words, as much as Cloti's say problems are a sign of a realistic relationship, I'd argue that having virtually zero romantic/physical infatuation is equally unrealistic of a romantic couple.

They have a "honeymoon" stage at the beginning of Episode:Tifa, complete with signs of infatuation and romantic stuff. The "because I have you" stuff sounds romantic to any ears, especially Japanese. You also have Cloud blushing while talking to Tifa (as classic a sign of infatuation as there is) and her teasing him ("Oh, you will, huh?").

Time also moves forward "several months" from the time Barret leaves to the first talk of any problems arising. There is your honeymoon stage.

Right. So their relationship (whatever it may have been) is confirmed to not be working. Tifa realizes they aren't a "real" family, and doesn't know if Cloud loves her. Tifa's statements prove, IMO, that any notion of an established, long-lasting romantic relationship between her and Cloud is uncertain, damaged, and broken.

I'm not sure what you're getting at. A relationship "not working" doesn't mean there is "no notion of an established, long-lasting relationship." When my wife left me a few months ago, she said "God help me, I still love you, but we just don't work as a couple. We want different things."

We were married two years, together three and a half. Just because we didn't work out does not mean we were never in an "established, long-lasting romantic relationship." It, in fact, requires the opposite.

Agreed. So what is with the insistent that it is *PROVEN* that Cloud and Tifa are in a romantic relationship during AC, despite evidence that can very clearly suggest they are *NOT* in a romantic relationship?

I'm not sure what you're asking for from me? I don't speak for anyone but myself, so ... yeah.

 

[Roger]

I forget, but do we ever see Denzel and Marlene sleeping in their beds? Don't we assume they sleep in their beds because the beds are found in their room?

We see Denzel sleep in his bed. We also see Marlene's clothes in the room, something Cloud's office very much lacks.

You are missing the point. I don't expect Cloud and Tifa to be doing coupley things 100% of the time. But what's even *ONE* example of coupley behavior between Cloud and Tifa after FFVII ends? Do they have *ANY* romantic scenes or romantic dialogue after FFVII ends?

I could repost the scenes and dialogues I've pointed out to you over and over again if you want.

I, personally, just think it makes the most sense for those three to return to Midgar because that is where we found them at the start of FFVII. It's sort of like the remaining members of AVALANCHE returning to their old stomping grounds.

Sure, Tifa is part of the reason Cloud returns to Midgar. But she's not the only reason, either.

Barret, Tifa, and Cloud return to Midgar as a trio. The fact that SE clumped all three of them together, and placed them back in Midgar --the place we were introduced to them, and the place that originally had Seventh Heaven-- suggests Midgar is the natural place for Cloud, Tifa, and Barret to return. If Cloud and Tifa had been alone, without the presence of Barret, I'd be more inclined to agree with you. But SE clumped Cloud, Tifa, and Barret together for a reason.

Fact is, Cloud doesn't say, "Let's go back to Midgar *BECAUSE* we have one another." Cloud never says it like that. He says that things will be different now that he has Tifa, yes. But I think he means things will be different anywhere and everywhere now that he has Tifa to rely on, not necessarily in Midgar exclusively.

What is the other reason. You keep saying it makes sense. Narratively speaking, yes it book ends the story, i can see that but that is not a motivation for Cloud.

Actually, I *AM* analyzing their relationship by looking at what Tifa has stated directly. Tifa is the other half of this assumed romantic relationship, and her statements and thoughts carry a lot of weight. So when I consider that Tifa, in particular, says her and Cloud aren't a "real" family, and that she doesn't know if Cloud loves her, I am led to believe that, at the very least, what is going on between them cannot definitively be called a romantic relationship.

If someone visits/stays with me me in the mid of the night and asks me if I love them, I'd call that very intimate. This person would certainly be taking a lot presumptions about our relationship no matter what he or she expects my answer would be.

I guess when I think of a love triangle that has been "solved," it typically means one pairing is canon and the other is not. I guess it's just unusual that both pairings are "canon," so sometimes I may word things in ways that may be confusing.

They are not. Romantic interest in both parties can be argued to be canon but Aerith and Cloud are not together.

What I'm saying is that Marlene's line carries a lot of significance because of Cloud and Tifa's perplexed reactions. If Cloud and Tifa didn't consider themselves a family until Marlene said it, that is *VERY* telling, IMO. It basically means Cloud and Tifa didn't see themselves as belonging in a family together, which means this family has nothing to do with their assumed romantic relationship.

Uh, okay. I'd have to argue the complete opposite; If there WERE lines that Cloud and Tifa considered each other family, then one could argue that is their reason for sticking together rather then a romantic relationship. The fact that they DON'T consider the group a family just yet but nevertheless have decided to commit to spend the rest of their lives together does suggest something to me.

I guess the reason I harp on this so much is because it seems many Cloti's think their pairing is more canon than Clerith because Cloud and Tifa became boyfriend/girlfriend.

Yeah that's pretty much the gist of it. And I'll level with you. A lot of fandoms will consider one pairing canon when they turn into girlfriend and boyfriend when the other pairings do noy.

The typical evidence used to support this is the fact that Cloud and Tifa are living together and formed a family together. However, both living together and this family had nothing directly to do with their assumed romance.

You JUST explained that Cloud decided to live together with Tifa long before he considered himself part of any family.

or them sleeping in the same bed,

What the hell do you think Tifa was doing then. Just standing in front of Cloud's breath studying his breathing all night till sunrise?

Because they say this during the LA Highwind scene, it is not romantic.

Uhm, WHY?

They're essentially saying that they don't have to go on alone because they have each other, which is also what they say to one another in CoT. In other words, this type of omission is not necessarily romantic because SE includes it in both the platonic and romantic versions of the Highwind scene.

You saying the LA Highwind scene is entirely platonic does not make it so, if you had that kind of authority we wouldn't be discussin all this.

I view Cloud wanting to re-unite with Aerith in the Promised Land as romantic because of Cloud's romantic feelings for Aerith, but you are free to view it as non-romantic.

If find that rather something of a leap. I could easily say "Cloud's desire to save Tifa in AC is because of Cloud's romantic feeling for Tifa." But even tho I do believe Cloti is canon that's crap, he would've saved anyone that he found in danger in AC. He would've obsessed over any death that he watched happened entirely because of him. Indeed he still does over Zack's death, vocally moreso then Aeriths in ACC.

Wow. Are people really going to continue to ignore the sentence that directly follows what I said?

Really? REALLY?

I really appreciate knowing that you understand where I'm coming from in regards to the family/living situation not being a direct result of Cloud and Tifa's (assumed) romantic relationship. I just needed some acknowledgment, I guess.

I don't at all. Cloud returning to AVALANCHE and Seventh Heaven because he has some unseen need for the end of the game to resemble the start is ridiculous.

If you had ever argued that it was because Aerith's church or Zack's grave or Elmyra were there THAT I could understand and respect but no. Nothing but endless harping on how that's where the game started. WHY SHOULD THAT MEAN ANYTHING TO CLOUD? Our journey with Cloud started at the beginning of the game, Cloud's own journey did not. He has been all over the world before and after the start of the game.

But it still seems as if (some) Cloti's act as if their pairing is the true or canon pairing of FFVII because Aerith is dead and Cloud and Tifa are living together/raising a family. I understand that on the surface that makes sense -- romantic couples typically live together and raise families together.

No. Pairings itself require two people. Look it up in a dictionary. One guy pinning over a girl is not a pairing even if that was what Cloud was doing, which personally I don't believe.

Right. So their relationship (whatever it may have been) is confirmed to not be working. Tifa realizes they aren't a "real" family, and doesn't know if Cloud loves her. Tifa's statements prove, IMO, that any notion of an established, long-lasting romantic relationship between her and Cloud is uncertain, damaged, and broken.

Nobody is saying that and Tifa having doubts does not make it so. Just like Marlene is not the divine arbiter of who and what is a family, neither if Tifa in any way appointed to judge whether their family is real or now.

But given all the issues between Cloud and Tifa, why is it not equally reasonable to think Cloud sleeps in the bed found in his room?

Cause even though your comments concerning Barret imply that Cloud's departure from Seventh Heaven happened days ago prior to AC, Cloud's residence in the church is already more cozy then that office.

I agree Cloud and Tifa grew close during the lifestream event, but I also believe Cloud and Aerith developed a closeness of equal merit. SE refers to Cloud and Aerith's bond as "special," in addition to pointing out that Tifa grows jealous of their bond in both FFVII and AC. Like everyone has pointed out, we have no idea what would have taken place had Aerith lived.

One of the last things Aerith ever said to Cloud was a desire to meet the real Cloud which she never got to do. I highly disagree that Aerith was as close as someone who literally has seen the ins and outs of Cloud's very psyche and all the secret he has harbored in his life.

 

[BlankBeat]

They have a "honeymoon" stage at the beginning of Episode:Tifa, complete with signs of infatuation and romantic stuff. The "because I have you" stuff sounds romantic to any ears, especially Japanese. You also have Cloud blushing while talking to Tifa (as classic a sign of infatuation as there is) and her teasing him ("Oh, you will, huh?").

Time also moves forward "several months" from the time Barret leaves to the first talk of any problems arising. There is your honeymoon stage.

You call *THAT* a honeymoon stage? Where is the physical infatuation? A kiss? A hug? An "I love you"? You are providing evidence that is debatable, not definitive.

I'm not sure what you're getting at. A relationship "not working" doesn't mean there is "no notion of an established, long-lasting relationship." When my wife left me a few months ago, she said "God help me, I still love you, but we just don't work as a couple. We want different things."

...but I never see evidence of a relationship working on a romantic, boyfriend/girlfriend level...I only see evidence of a relationship *NOT* working.

Or, I guess I also see evidence of a limbo stage that isn't really clear-cut either way.

I'm not sure what you're asking for from me? I don't speak for anyone but myself, so ... yeah.

I know that. I didn't know if you had any insight into why some Cloti's are so definitive about Cloud and Tifa being in a romantic relationship, when there is plenty of evidence to the contrary.

Honestly, you agree it can be interpreted that Cloud and Tifa's relationship wasn't working, and that we would have to see what their relationship is like post-AC to determine anything. So I guess there's nothing really more for us to discuss?

The main point I've been trying to get across is that the family and the living arrangements were not created out of Cloud and Tifa's possible romantic relationship, and therefore cannot be used as definitive evidence to support the idea that they are boyfriend/girlfriend.

 

[BlankBeat]

We see Denzel sleep in his bed. We also see Marlene's clothes in the room, something Cloud's office very much lacks.

The lack of Cloud's other clothes are irrelevant. How many times do we see Cloud change outfits? Bottom line: Cloud has a place to sleep in his own room. The lack of anything else is irrelevant. We assume Marlene sleeps in the bed found in her room, right? So why wouldn't we assume Cloud sleeps in the bed found in his room?

Yeah that's pretty much the gist of it. And I'll level with you. A lot of fandoms will consider one pairing canon when they turn into girlfriend and boyfriend when the other pairings do noy.

But Cloud and Tifa never become boyfriend/girlfriend. There's nothing definitive that makes them boyfriend/girlfriend such as a kiss, an embrace, an "I love you," or a, "will you be my girlfriend?"

You can interpret that they are boyfriend/girlfriend, but that's simply an interpretation. It can just as easily be interpreted that Cloud and Tifa are *NOT* in a romantic relationship.

Furthermore, SE does not treat Cloud and Tifa similarly to other main FF couples, who all have a romantic description or mutual favor arrows on at least one occasion. These romantic descriptions and mutual favor arrows prove a relationship exists because they are included in the relationship charts. If SE were to give a romantic description or mutual favor arrows to Cloud and Tifa in at least one *relationship chart*, I wouldn't be able to argue with your *opinion*. Unfortunately for you, SE never describes Cloud and Tifa romantically, nor do they give them mutual favor arrows.

You saying the LA Highwind scene is entirely platonic does not make it so, if you had that kind of authority we wouldn't be discussin all this.

Huh? You don't agree that the LAHW scene is platonic and the HAHW scene is romantic?

Ugh. This is probably my last reply to you because debates with you never go anywhere...

 

[Strangelove]

- When Cloud talks about meeting Aerith in the Promised Land, Tifa says "let's go meet her" in reply. Without semantic gymnastics that distort the meaning completely, this is saying that both Tifa and Cloud are going to this (a reading supported by the Ultimania Omega). If this is meant to be a show of romantic intention on Cloud's part, why is Tifa included? Her statement isn't challenged by Cloud at all, and there is no suggestion that he doesn't want her around. Square decided, at the end of the game, to have Cloud and Tifa express a desire to see Aerith in the end of the game. How does Square's inclusion of Tifa in this gel with the notion at Cloud's statement is romantic in nature? (Unless we're talking about Tifa/Aerith now.)

- Nojima claims in the Reunion Files that Cloud and Tifa being together was something he was certain on when writing AC, everyone being 'where they belong'. Barret isn't included in his statement, despite being there for a period of time as well. If Barret was just as important a part of the reasoning they were together, why is the writer excluding him and singling out Cloud and Tifa in this way? He decided to send him away before long, but he was originally there as well. Why was he not included with Cloud and Tifa in being where they belong?

 

[Obsidian Fire]

I know that. I didn't know if you had any insight into why some Cloti's are so definitive about Cloud and Tifa being in a romantic relationship, when there is plenty of evidence to the contrary.

I know part of the reason why I think they're romantically involved is because their relationship is pretty typical of a shounen manga where the couples' romance isn't the point of the manga. Often times, shounen romance relationships don't look that romanic compared to western romance, but all the other characters assume that they're romantically interested in each other and if the couple is together at the end of the manga, especially if it's after the last time-skip (and especially if they've adopted/had kids) then there's pretty much no doubt that they are currently in a romantic relationship. Combining that with the fact that both Cloud and Tifa have said to each other that they want to stay with each other not to mention the whole Cloud/Tifa Lifestream sequence makes out the Cloud/Tifa relationship to be no more or less romantic then a lot of other shonen romances.

I will admit that if FFVII was Western in origin I'd be a lot more skeptical of a Cloud/Tifa romance. But it isn't and I don't think it's fair to the story to expect it to conform to standards/stereotypes it wasn't even trying to conform to.

 

[Strangelove]

Furthermore, SE does not treat Cloud and Tifa similarly to other main FF couples, who all have a romantic description or mutual favor arrows on at least one occasion. These romantic descriptions and mutual favor arrows prove a relationship exists because they are included in the relationship charts. If SE were to give a romantic description or mutual favor arrows to Cloud and Tifa in at least one *relationship chart*, I wouldn't be able to argue with your *opinion*. Unfortunately for you, SE never describes Cloud and Tifa romantically, nor do they give them mutual favor arrows.

You harp on and on about 'mutual favour arrows', but you must have been shown a dozen times by now all the examples of Cloud and Tifa being described in the exact same terms as other couples. Why is it that arrows are the one criteria Cloud and Tifa must fulfil?

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Because its the one they haven't, duh

 

[Sprites]

Apparently you didn't read my next sentence...

"...many Cloti's think their pairing is more canon than Clerith because Cloud and Tifa became boyfriend/girlfriend. The typical evidence used to support this is the fact that Cloud and Tifa are living together and formed a family together."

Apologies but your wording of it was confusing even with what you said after because it seemed like you were firstly stating your opinion then talking about the evidence that others use, so yes I did misread it but I’ll let it go as you explained it better after called on it.

2. "Must go...to the Promised Land."

Genuinely forgot about that quote, but it still doesn’t mean he’s questing for it and yes I don’t view it in a romantic way and yes you are entitled to that opinion.

Lightening Returns

...Lightning…

Sorry to be a corrective grammar ninny about that but it's one of the worst grammar mistakes to me. Lightening, Lightning and Lighting have to be some of the three worst grammar mistakes someone can make when speaking about those three words in context.

Unfortunately for you, SE never describes Cloud and Tifa romantically, nor do they give them mutual favor arrows.

I really wish you'd drop this line of argument because you've had your case for it disproven numerous times.