Responding to this in a totally non-LTD way as I think the subject and ramifications of Aerith surviving should get their own thread. It really is a separate subject and has nothing to do with the LTD and everything to do with an AU.
2. He would still feel guilt over Zack - possibly made worse if he knew Aerith used to be his girl: Only if she told him (cant remember if she says she was his gf to cloud in the game or not atm) if he didnt know then this would not be a problem. Tho yeah the guilt would still be there, maybe not as bad as Aerith may have been able to talk him out of feeling to bad about it somehow. (She a white mage after all, healing is her thing )
Cloud might not even need Aerith to tell him Zack was her boyfriend. Zack himself tells a cationic Cloud in CC that he has a girlfriend waiting for him in Midgar and given that even Sephiroth knows that Zack has a girlfriend who lives in Midgar I could see Zack telling a pre-Nebilheim incident Cloud about Aerith. Not to mention that we have no idea exactly how much of Zack' memories Cloud copied.
3. Aerith would fulfil Clouds need to be the hero and offer protection: Agreed, so another good thing here (at leats for cloud). Cant see that being a problem as am sure shinra would come after her again in the future (or some other form of badguys, got deepground to remember ect)
Shin-Ra at the very least would not be after Aerith post-OG as the only reason why they were after her in the first place was because they thought she could lead them to the Promised Land. Now that they know what the Promised Land really is, or rather what it isn't, she isn't useful to them anymore. Not to mention that Rufus is a lot more practical then his dad was...
4. Aerith is also very headstrong, this could cause friction if Cloud is trying to protect her all the time.: Unsure on this one, i guess it might do in the long run but i cant see it being too bit a issue, hell i think it might be a good thing in a way as she will at least be able to keep cloud in his place.
Exactly why would keeping Cloud in his place be a good thing? If anything, Cloud being more assertive with himself would have helped him out a lot.
5. Would Cloud be able to recover his true self without Tifa? : Going to go with yes on this one, after all Aerith had a possivite effect on him, and given time am sure she could have helped him recover his true self, after all it would seem she was helping him along in the game during there time together, so i cant see why in the end it would have changed.
This is the big one I disagree with you on. In order for Cloud to remember who he really is he had to get mako poisoning again, fall into the Lifestream again, have the one person in the whole world who knew him pre-Nibelheim fall into it with him, and then have her confirm that "We know this memory is real because I have this memory too". The problem I have is that Aerith, for all she knows that the "SOLDIER Cloud" isn't the "real Cloud", has no knowledge of who the "real Cloud" is as a person. She knows that Cloud is broken, and she even might be able to help repair the damage Hojo/Sephiroth did to him, but there isn't any way for her to know if she's fixing Cloud correctly or not. The only person currently alive who can for sure know what the "real Cloud" is like is Tifa. Otherwise you start getting into Aerith wanting to fix Cloud into what she thinks he should be, not who he really is and that isn't characteristic of Aerith at all.
6. How would Aerith feel about the real Cloud in the long term. : Unsure on this one, would guess everything would be ok and she would like the real Cloud like she does the one she knows when she is with him in the game. after all he was slowly recovering then and she was not going off him as fair as we can tell. So yeah while i guess this would not lead to problems and would be fine am going to say unsure just encase iv missed something lol.
This is one I'm iffy with. Aerith admits during the Gold Saucer date that Cloud reminds her of her first boyfriend. Given that there is a definite personality shift in Cloud once he remembers who he is, his relationship with everyone would be different. This includes his relationship with Aerith. For the Cloud/Aerith relationship to be romantic post-OG, it's not just Aerith who needs to be in love with the real Cloud. Cloud has to be in love with her and we don't have any real Cloud/alive Aerith interaction to go on.
7. Aerith says "im alone, im the only Cetra" and when Cloud says "does that mean we camt help?" she doesnt say anything and looks away. Her Cetra heritage could be a barrier for her in any relationship. : Dont argee, while maybe at first this might be a small problem, i can see it becoming less so in time as things changed and they moved on with there realionship (and maybe had a child or two, meaning she would not then be the only Cetra). After all they do say love congors all .
Just about every answer to this question will be speculation. What it means to be a Cetra isn't fully gone into in the OG or the rest of the series, so we have no idea what being a Cetra could mean. Particularly as for most of her life Aerith didn't acknowledge that she was a Cetra as Shin-Ra was after her at the time. Her arc in the OG is really about her coming to be okay with her inheritance as a Cetra. I could see this going from not affecting her relationship with Cloud at all to being a hindrance.
Really? several days to respond to 3 posts (4 if you include Monik XIII's one that re-quoted Kittyform and said Thankyou)
I think what you really mean is..
"I have nothing to argue right now and I need until the end of the week to think of a ridiculous counter argument to several points that I've been completely called out on and that I can't admit I'm wrong on this one"
That's a very snide remark I know but you've given me a reason to be snide right now.
You are the one who has been using profanities, attacking me personally, giving me advice I didn't ask for, and generally being rude/insulting. Seriously, look at your previous posts. In-fact, this post continues your rude behavior -- hell, you even admit to being "snide".
You are the exact reason people don't like debating here.
Unfortunately, your behavior is encouraged with "likes" from admins and you are never told to stop insulting people (unless you have been told in PM's).
Personally, I think I've done a pretty good job at responding to people on this site. But hey, that's just me.
Honestly, the only person I really care to debate with at the moment is Strangelove. And yes, it might take me some time before I get around to responding. And no, I don't care what you think about that.
Are we assuming that had Aerith had lived, that he would of chosen to be with Aerith instead of Tifa? Is this the original question or am I lost somewhere lol . If not that would be a very interesting and heated topic!
It's probably safe to assume he would know, if only because he would still want to honor Zack by placing the Buster Sword on his grave and -- assuming Aerith didn't make the connection herself -- he would come up in conversation somewhere.
Only if she told him (cant remember if she says she was his gf to cloud in the game or not atm) if he didnt know then this would not be a problem. Tho yeah the guilt would still be there, maybe not as bad as Aerith may have been able to talk him out of feeling to bad about it somehow. (She a white mage after all, healing is her thing )
Cloud might not even need Aerith to tell him Zack was her boyfriend. Zack himself tells a cationic Cloud in CC that he has a girlfriend waiting for him in Midgar and given that even Sephiroth knows that Zack has a girlfriend who lives in Midgar I could see Zack telling a pre-Nebilheim incident Cloud about Aerith. Not to mention that we have no idea exactly how much of Zack' memories Cloud copied.
Dont think we just assume here.
Are you guys really forgetting Gongaga Scene in OG???
Zack's mom told Cloud, Aerith, and Tifa that he had a girlfriend on his letter, heck, they even asked if Aerith was the one. Then outside, Aerith told Cloud, "I dunno Zack is from here. Didn't I tell you? He is my first love. But he's a ladiesman, probably run off with someone else." And it refers to the conversation in Sector 5 Playground when she said Cloud look like her boyfriend.
Zack telling Cloud during CC about his relationship with Aerith is still hidden-scene assumption (probably Cloud heard how Zack scream "Aerith, wait for me" in CC?), but Aerith telling Cloud is a canon fact.
So, if we all agree Cloud didn't really forget the memory when he was a fake!Cloud, then it's very clear that CLOUD KNOWS AERITH IS ZACK'S GF!!
So yeah if Aerith lived and Cloud had gained his true self, it'd make worse. "Dear my bestfriend, you died because of protecting me and by that, your girlfriend think you leave her for a new girlfriend. I won't tell her the truth so I can be with her." Congratz, Cloud, you're a true douchebag!!
Cloud wouldn't be a douche bag for getting together with Aerith after knowing about Zack, any more than Aerith is for initially being curious about Cloud because of similarities to Zack.
I like to laugh at the idea that a relationship with anyone would automatically be a beautiful happy thing.
Cloud is fucked up.
It doesn't matter who is by his side, he will have always had to battle these issues. Between identity issues, depression, survivor's guilt, years of forced kidnapping and scientific manipulation, ptsd, communication problems, and low self esteem, no amount of romantic dates and flowers is going to make that automatically go away. He had issues before the Sephiroth incident, and he will have issues post ACC.
Cloud and Tifa aren't weak because they have issues. They would be weak if they succumbed to it. They didn't. They faltered a few times, but considering Tifa was battling with her own communication issues and survivor's guilt, along with dealing with terminal illness (which seemed to be linked directly into Cloud's own self esteem and sense of guilt) it passed, is everyone going to ignore that they freaking made it.
They had problems, they fought, they did some soul searching with the help of friends, and they got better. It's a very light way to put it, but that's what happened.
What makes them a "good" couple isn't that they are not perfect, what makes them remarkable that after what would destroy most relationships, they end up stronger and better. Just sayin'
Cloud wouldn't be a douche bag for getting together with Aerith after knowing about Zack, any more than Aerith is for initially being curious about Cloud because of similarities to Zack.
I think what eleamaya meant was that if Cloud did not tell Aerith the truth about Zack's disappearance (thus leaving her to think that Zack had abandoned her for another woman) just so he can hook up with her, then that would make him a douchebag.
Dont think we just assume here.
Are you guys really forgetting Gongaga Scene in OG???
Zack's mom told Cloud, Aerith, and Tifa that he had a girlfriend on his letter, heck, they even asked if Aerith was the one. Then outside, Aerith told Cloud, "I dunno Zack is from here. Didn't I tell you? He is my first love. But he's a ladiesman, probably run off with someone else." And it refers to the conversation in Sector 5 Playground when she said Cloud look like her boyfriend.
Zack telling Cloud during CC about his relationship with Aerith is still hidden-scene assumption (probably Cloud heard how Zack scream "Aerith, wait for me" in CC?), but Aerith telling Cloud is a canon fact.
So, if we all agree Cloud didn't really forget the memory when he was a fake!Cloud, then it's very clear that CLOUD KNOWS AERITH IS ZACK'S GF!!
So yeah if Aerith lived and Cloud had gained his true self, it'd make worse. "Dear my bestfriend, you died because of protecting me and by that, your girlfriend think you leave her for a new girlfriend. I won't tell her the truth so I can be with her." Congratz, Cloud, you're a true douchebag!!
Errrr fuck xD. ok then yeah i admit i complealty forgot about this happening (fail). Ok then my bad here.
Sorry about that. I really should start playing FF7 again more, since i downloaded it on steam when it was on sale iv only made it upto where they rescuse Red and Aerith from hojo lab cos iv hardly played recantly....other wise i would have remembered this
You haven't been around much... are you back to claim your title?
tbh I did kinda feel maybe Sprites' posts could have been toned down a bit, but I knew saying it would just result in "But Blankbeat isn't being honest" so I didn't say much. No one else by chance agreed with me?
Hey I fully admitted I was being completely snide in my post, I'm not going to deny it but my anger got the better of me, I'm not a rude person nor am I a nasty person but I felt provoked and like I said my anger got the better of me, I'm taking a break from posting in here anyways cause I'm getting myself way too annoyed over the whole thing.
Hey I fully admitted I was being completely snide in my post, I'm not going to deny it but my anger got the better of me, I'm not a rude person nor am I a nasty person but I felt provoked and like I said my anger got the better of me, I'm taking a break from posting in here anyways cause I'm getting myself way too annoyed over the whole thing.
Pfft dude I just went on a training course about managing people's behaviour don't tell me how behaviour works.
Anyway apologies to everyone I'm getting off track I''ll come back when I have something useful to respond to that's on topic and stops me from possibly getting kicked out of this thread
You're all on enhanced levels of crack to continue to debate this circular argument anyway
I should know, I once had some of this crack. Immediately went to LTD-Anonymous and quickly gained the ability to not post in this thread
If anyone needs a sponsor, let me know. There is light at the end of the tunnel and it is called asking yourself why this argument is so important to you. I'm not slamming people for posting - because it feels really good to refute baseless arguments and sometimes it needs to be done (and posts like Hito's have been utter gold) - but if the answer to the question isn't "I have something valuable to contribute to this debate" then you shouldn't post. And that goes for everyone.
This debate has always been heated because of twisting, misrepresentation and ignorance, and all that stuff is personal. It's never actually been about shipping, its been about the (sometimes downright devious) behaviour of shippers in general. In this new iteration of the thread, it had been going in a markedly better direction until the last few days. I understand that this thread is infuriating, but go back to the professional kind of posting please. Flaming helps no one, and neither does trolling.
Also, Lex, the argument isn't circular, but it is amazingly cyclical. Arguments are rarely of the nature 'X because Y because X' -though there are a few here and there- but the rest button always does seem to get pressed, with the same arguments from the same people being rebutted by the same evidence, time and again.
Something I've often thought about is that the "Things don't go well with Cloud and Tifa" quote gets brought up again and again to show that Cloud and Tifa could never make it and so on. But he gives them a bit of hope saying maybe the kids can help them work it out. This part is always ignored... in fact
the entire quote is always ignored. He also says, "Maybe things would have gone well with Aerith but Aerith has a heavy burden." (or whatever the exact translation is we all know what I mean)
I always found this incredibly intriguing because doesn't it mean that if Cloud and Aerith got together, Aerith would have been the problem because of her burden/responsibilities? Instead of depressed brooding Cloud that we're not familiar with, we'd have a side of Aerith we've never seen before.
I'm not really sure what this adds to the conversation if anything but... just thoughts of mine.
... this is also interesting because it's implied in CoD that he's not living there again. At least Denzel doesn't mention him. Also... however what?
I have recognized that Nojima said Cloud and Aerith would likely have their own set of problems:
1.
And yes, I know Nojima doesn't guarantee things would have gone better with Aerith. But as I've stated previously, this is why I personally think things would have gone better with Aerith:
1. Nojima says that perhaps things would have gone well with Aerith in contrast to things not going well with Tifa. That hints to me that things would have gone better with Aerith given the juxtaposition.
2. Just look at Cloud and Aerith's dynamic together. To me, Cloud and Aerith's dynamic suggests things would have gone better between them.
Right. In my opinion, Cloud and Aerith's dynamic was much healthier, natural, and positive than Cloud and Tifa's dynamic. Even Tifa is jealous of Cloud and Aerith's fun, flirty dynamic. In addition, SE says Cloud and Aerith developed a "special bond".
I don't deny that Cloud and Aerith would have their own problems. But in my opinion, their dynamic would have worked out far better than Cloud and Tifa's. SE has given numerous hints and clues that heavily suggest this, especially considering SE has made it a point to show Tifa is jealous of Cloud and Aerith's "special bond".
I was very aware that it isn't proven Cloud and Aerith would have worked out better than Cloud and Tifa, and I even stated, "I know Nojima doesn't guarantee things would have gone better with Aerith."
I simply gave reasons why in my opinion, I believe Cloud and Aerith would have worked out better.
Fact is, though, we see how Cloud and Tifa work out. And it's not pretty.
Barret was there at first. He was part of their initial living situation. But you just said that Cloud and Tifa would have created a home together no matter what (and they call you a clerith!), and the story Nojima chose to tell was one where Barret was absent for the majority of it. He might have helped build the foundation for their living arrangements, but he wasn't there for the majority of the drama. He wasn't a major part of the story Nojima was telling.
I agree. Nojima was always certain Cloud and Tifa would end up living together. And they did. But what Nojima wasn’t sure of (but what actually happened in the story) is that Cloud, Tifa, and Barret ended up together. Barret left the Forgotten City with Cloud and Tifa, discussed finding a home with Cloud and Tifa, came up with the idea to start a business with Cloud and Tifa, helped re-build Seventh Heaven with Cloud and Tifa, and began a family with Cloud and Tifa. Then, Marlene, Barret's daughter, invited Cloud into *HER* family.
I also agree that part of the reason SE had Barret leave was to focus on Cloud and Tifa’s relationship. But what I’ve been saying all along is that their relationship is unclear and not definitively romantic for a variety of reasons.
Here are all the quotes showing that Cloud and Tifa's relationship is not definitively romantic:
1. Tifa was trying to convince the children that there were no problems, but she lost her composure and the children soon realized something was wrong.
2. After Cloud started his delivery service,*their “family” life changed greatly. It wasn’t too good. Besides morning and late night,*Cloud was usually not at home.*And of course, there were less chances for the three of them to have conversations together. Tifa closed the bar for a day during the week, but it didn’t stop Cloud from doing his job. Cloud wasn’t likely to turn down requests. I just wanted us to be able to take a day off together now and then but, I suppressed that selfishness in me.*During that time, it was Marlene who noticed a change in Cloud.*She told Tifa how Cloud would sometimes look up at the sky and not listen to her.
3. It was night, and they had closed the bar. Cloud was drinking alcohol even though he rarely did. He drained his glass. Tifa thought about it before going over and filling his glass.
“Shall I join you?” There was something she wanted to talk to him about.
“I want to drink alone.”
Hearing that, Tifa lost control and said, “Then drink in your room.”
4. It didn’t go well. But we were together. It was because we were family. We lived in the same house and we were living by uniting our strength. Maybe there wasn’t much conversation or many smiles, but we were family, Tifa thought to herself. No, it was what she made herself think.
5. Of course, there was no answer. I only heard the sound of him sleeping. I wondered if the fact that he was sleeping here meant that he was part of the family.
“Do you love me?”
6. Tifa: “Yeah, but that's not stopping Denzel, is it? Don't run! Let's fight it together! We can help each other, I know we can.”
[Cloud is silent again.]
Tifa: “I guess that only works for real families...”
7. Tifa wondered if that smile he showed her was an illusion. After kissing the sleeping children on the face she went into Cloud’s office. She brushed away the dust on the family photo they had taken and then tried calling him. After several rings the messaging service took over.
8. "Episode Tifa"... first off, there's the premise that things won't go well between Tifa and Cloud, and that even without Geostigma or Sephiroth this might be the same."
I don't understand why you're saying Cloud and Tifa would be together, but that isn't really that meaningful because Barret was there too (for a brief period)? Barret isn't the one Cloud is telling that being with them is the reason he thinks he won't fail at his start of a new life this time.
Because Cloti’s act as though this family and living situation sprang out of Cloud and Tifa’s love. But as I’ve established, Barret was involved in the creation of this family and living situation. Barret’s presence means this family and living situation cannot be used as evidence of Cloud and Tifa being boyfriend/girlfriend.
That is really flimsy reasoning. The only situation you see them in is fighting a heavily armed enemy together. That's no indication of where he lives. Maybe he moves back, maybe he doesn't. You don't know because all you see is him shooting people in the face and not a word about where he lives.
Fighting a battle together =/= living together. Yuffie isn't living with Cid just because they appear together in AC. Cait Sith doesn't live with Nanaki just because he was sitting on his back. You took an extraordinary situation, a dangerous group of SOLDIER members attacking the world, and claimed that because they were seen together during a few scenes it means you can tell what their living arrangements are.
But you know what, I did find something saying that Barret is living with Marlene (if you assume Marlene still lives at Seventh Heaven then that would mean he moved back; or Marlene lives with him somewhere else):
「現在は、親友の遺児であるマリンと共に暮らしているが…」
"Currently he is living with Marlene, the orphaned child of his best friend, however..."
(Dirge of Cerberus Official Complete Guide, p.21: http://imgur.com/qnVcLlw )
That is how you back something up. Not with 'there were on screen together, so obviously they all live together'. I managed to make your point better than you did yourself.
I agree that Yuffie and Cid fighting in a battle together isn’t indicative of them living together. The difference is...Barret and Tifa have a history of living together on two occasions, whereas Yuffie and Cid do not have a history of living together. Plus, I said Barret and Tifa TRAVELED together. If Yuffie and Cid had traveled together to fight in a battle, after having a history of living together on two occasions, that would lead me to believe they were still living together.
But thanks for that quote. I’d love for Cloti’s to retrat statements like, “SE had Barret leave and never return, so that proves Cloud and Tifa are in a relationship!” Your wonderful quote proves (even more unequivocally) that Barret’s trip was never meant to be permanent.
I agree SE had Barret leave to focus on Cloud and Tifa’s relationship (whatever their “relationship” may be). But Barret’s home, and the place he belongs, is with Cloud, Tifa, and his daughter Marlene at Seventh Heaven.
But in your vision, she's not really being supportive or helping those in need. She is pushing her way into Cloud's personal life, where she isn't wanted, and to make matters worse she can't even accomplish what she says she wants to because Aerith isn't 'her Promised Land'. So you're claiming that Square ended the game with Tifa being pushy, and what's more not even capable of doing the thing she is inviting herself along to do.
No, SE ended the game with Tifa doing what she had done throughout the entire game – assist Cloud in sorting through his problems and being as helpful as possible.
'Official translation' is not the only way Square can express themselves. How do you think they expect their Japanese fans to understand the story? Force them all to learn English so they too get to read the 'official translation'? An English translation doesn't invalidate alternative readings you can make from the original text.
And this is only an issue if you insist that because it is written "I think I can..." that it automatically means that Cloud doesn't want Tifa to come with him.
There are two different translations for Cloud's line.
The first was the official English translation of Final Fantasy VII: "I think I can meet her.... there"
The second translation was in Reminiscence, and SE didn't change the translation from "I" to "We"- the only word changed was "meet" to "find". If SE wanted the translation changed from "I" to "We", they would've done it in Reminiscence - but they didn't.
Bottom line: Cloud doesn’t include Tifa in his stated desire to find Aerith in the Promised Land. The fact that SE had Cloud state he wants to search for the Promised Land in Final Fantasy Tactics affirms Cloud’s desire to do this alone.
That's if you make the assumption that Cloud going to the church in the first place has anything to do with 'finding the Promised Land' and not other reasons (such as guilt, as stated on relationship charts! for AC).
Which is a big assumption that you can't really back up. You have no ground to stand on to claim that Cloud is looking for the Promised Land or Aerith in AC, because we aren't given anything to suggest that. Unlike Cloud feeling guilty and wanting forgiveness, for which there is plenty to support it.
But your entire argument is centred around that assumption.
Cloud doesn't seem to answer anyone's calls. You can interpret this from all the messages from his friends on his phone.
But his not answering his phone doesn't mean he doesn't care about these people. He still keeps his phone even if he doesn't answer it. Which is a point highlighted in AC itself.
Cloud has more missed calls from Seventh Heaven than anyone else. Oh, and you’d think *IF* Tifa was Cloud's girlfriend, she’d be the ONLY person Cloud would pick up the phone for. Unfortunately, Tifa doesn't even know if Cloud loves her, so I guess Cloud's feelings towards Tifa are fairly ambiguous at that point.
'Continued residing' is where this argument falls apart. There's nothing to suggest he has 'still been residing' there. This is a case of your recollection being hazy and distorted around this conclusion that doesn't exist.
Nothing in that scene, or any other, suggests that Cloud was living there before. Only that he was living there now. There has never been any suggestion that he was living anywhere but Seventh Heaven prior to that.
At the beginning of CoT, Marlene asks Tifa where Cloud is and Tifa says, "I don't know." Cloud had been away for awhile at that point. I can't tell you how long for sure, but I assume it's been at least several weeks. Tifa also says at the beginning of CoT that other people had seen Cloud on his motorcycle delivering stuff and that she had been worried that he had been injured in an attack or something - but she knew that if other people had seen him, then he must be okay. Point is, Cloud had been gone for awhile because Tifa was worried he was gone for so long. Where is the most likely place Cloud had been? I’d say Aerith’s Church, based on where he found Denzel and the fact we know Cloud does, in-fact, reside there at some point. Sure, it’s my assumption. But to say it’s based on “nothing” is not true.
You have nothing to support this. Just like there's nothing to support 'Cloud and Tifa fought and argued all the time' except the version of the story that exists in your mind. Cloud wasn't notably sad until after visiting the Forgotten City, that's when things started getting bad. And as kittyform has mention, Cloud being happy made him distressed because he was afraid to lose the happiness he has.
Actually, I do have evidence to support Cloud’s happiness could be a result of Denzel’s arrival:
1. Tifa wondered if they became a “real” family after Denzel arrived. Doesn’t Tifa’s belief in them becoming a “real” family suggest their family situation got happier after Denzel arrived?
2. Cloud took less jobs after Denzel arrived. Wouldn’t that suggest Cloud was happier at Seventh Heaven because he started taking less jobs after Denzel arrived?
3. The, “...silly little conversations he had with Tifa were back,” after Denzel arrived. Why did Denzel’s arrival cause Cloud to bring back his silly little conversations with Tifa? Seems likely that when one is happy, they are more likely to partake in silly little conversations.
Cloud’s belief in Aerith bringing Denzel to him is what caused him to bring Denzel to Seventh Heaven. It also made him happier at Seventh Heaven because Tifa wondered if they became a “real family” after Denzel arrived, Cloud took less jobs after Denzel arrived, and Cloud brought back his silly little conversations with Tifa after Denzel arrived.
As you say, Cloud first was notably sad after vising the Forgotten City and being reminded of Aerith. Then, when he feels connected to Aerith through Denzel, he becomes happy again. Coincidence? Doubtful.
And sure, maybe the word, “fight” isn’t the correct word. They didn’t fight in the sense that they had arguments all the time. But they did have problems. Constant problems. So I will exchange the word “fight” to “problems”.
What do you hope to see from me by showing a bunch of quotes where things aren't going well, when I already told you I think they have problems during that period?
If you acknowledge they were having problems, then it's only logical to think they had arguments at times - right? We even see one starting in CoT when Tifa tells Cloud to go drink in his room. Regardless, I’m not opposed to revising my statement from them “fighting” all the time to them having “problems” all the time. Even Marlene tells Barret that Cloud and Tifa are having problems.
Without Sephiroth or Geostigma Cloud would still be riddled with guilt over Aerith and Zack (relationship charts tell me so). He still wouldn't be able to make people 'unlose their lives'. Guilt, as we have had highlighted and reinforced multiple times. And Cloud's poor people skills, which were mentioned in OTWTAS.
That's what I said. Denzel's sole value to Cloud is making him feel close to Aerith. Cloud doesn't care about the child beyond that, hence why he left him suddenly so he could go live in Aerith's church (again!). Because Aerith is the most important thing to Cloud, to hell with the sick and dying child!
Look at the story your painting and realise how horrible it is.
The reason he cares about Denzel is written in the novel. You can't undo the past and bring the dead back, but he now has a chance to save someone, which he thinks Aerith wants him to do because he found Denzel in front of the church.
If Denzel is important because Cloud thinks Aerith brought Denzel to him, why does he then abandon Denzel when he himself gets sick? What purpose does that serve? To go live in the church where you claim he was happy? Do you think he was happy in AC while he was living in the church?
Cloud may think that Denzel can best be saved by someone other than himself. Remember that Cloud said he can't save anyone...not his friends, not his family, not anyone. If Cloud doesn't think he can save anyone, then why would he think he can save Denzel? Given all of this, Cloud left Denzel in Tifa's care. If anyone could save Denzel, Tifa could. After all, she'd nursed Cloud back to health when he had the Mako poisoning.
You also stated, “There is actually an answer for that. Cloud wants to save Denzel as a way of redeeming himself for letting other important people to him die”
Where does it say that in the novel? If anyone says it, Tifa says it because she said that Denzel came to her place because she was responsible for destroying Sector Seven. But where does Cloud say this?
It was after that exchange that Tifa told Cloud that they could redeem themselves by saving other people: “I can’t really explain it well…” Cloud warned before starting to talk. “The problem isn’t resolved. Well, I never tried resolving it for a long time, I think. You can’t retrieve lost lives.”
Tifa nodded silently.
Tifa “But maybe we can save the lives who are in a crisis just now. Maybe even I can do it.”
Cloud “You mean Denzel?”
Tifa “Yeah.”
That was Tifa's idea, not Cloud's. So no wonder Cloud left Denzel in Tifa's care. Tifa seems to think she can help Denzel. Cloud doesn't think he can help anybody.
Furthermore – the reason Cloud left isn't actually specified, so we don't know if it was because Cloud was unhappy, or because Cloud had Geostigma, or because Cloud wanted time to himself, or because Cloud wanted to be alone with Aerith (in her Church), or what. We actually have reason to think Cloud was unhappy because 1) Marlene says Cloud and Tifa were having problems 2) This quote from CoT: "After Cloud started his delivery service, their “family” life changed greatly. It wasn’t too good. Besides morning and late night, Cloud was usually not at home." 3) Nojima’s premise that things didn’t go well between Cloud and Tifa, etc. (I listed all the quotes in the beginning of this post and in my previous post, and you didn’t answer all of them)
There's amble reason to think that Cloud was unhappy. So why do you think Cloud left even though he was happy? Sure there are quotes saying that Cloud was happy with his family, but does it say that Cloud was happy when he left? I don't think so.
but when he gets sick himself he feels that he can't protect anyone else and runs away. Not because he was unhappy (until Aerith blessed him with Denzel who is promptly left behind when Cloud gets sick), but precisely because he was happy and thought that something else would come along and take that away just like it had in the past
Cloud leaves precisely because he's happy and thinks that someone else would come along and take that away? Where is that said?
That's said nowhere in CoT and nowhere in AC/ACC. The only thing said is Cloud saying, "I'm not fit to help anyone - not friends, family, no one." That means he doesn't think he can help anyone, but it doesn't mean that he's happy. It also doesn't mean that Cloud thinks someone else will come along and take any happiness away from him.
And where does it say that Cloud wasn't unhappy when he ran away? There may be quotes saying that Cloud was happy with his family, but things Tifa says in CoT sure doesn't sound like Cloud's happy. Tifa telling Cloud to drink in his room sure doesn't make Cloud sound happy.
And this passage in CoT makes it sound like Tifa sleeps with Marlene instead of with Cloud:
Marlene, who had always slept with Tifa, slept with her foster father Barret the night before he left. Their conversations could be heard late into the night. ~Case of Tifa
You never addressed this quote about Marlene always sleeping with Tifa.
The place 'he awakens' is his Promised Land, and the text talks about him awaking where he is surround by his friends and family. But instead you looked at the title (which are often poetic and flowery) and took it literally.
It's entirely possible that the heading doesn't mean a literal Promised Land, and it's just figurative. I mean, if you can read half of the stuff into the text that you have been, this isn't impossible.
It is possible that the title isn’t to be taken literally. But you have no proof that it shouldn’t be taken literally. It seems Cloti’s want so badly for the title not to be taken literally because it signifies a connection between Cloud and Aerith.
The passage never says Cloud’s friends and family are his Promised Land. That is your interpretation of the passage.
However, my belief is not an interpretation – it is stated that the place (not people) Cloud awakens to is his his promised land. The place Cloud awakens is Aerith’s Church.
There's nothing that says Cloud can 'connect' or whatever with Aerith and Zack by going to the church, there's nothing to say they will appear again. We were told they returned to the Lifestream, though. And Cloud evidently associates the church with Zack now, as in ACC he places Zack's sword in the church at the ending.
Cloud was alone during AC because he isolated himself. ('Not anymore' was just something the English dub added.) By the end of AC, he's no longer isolating himself from the living. Not because he is planning on seances in the future.
Yes. Cloud is no longer isolating himself from the living because he now knows he can always reach the two people that were missing from his life – Aerith and Zack. He can reach them through his Promised Land, which is stated to be Aerith’s Church, the only place he has ever been able to see both Aerith and Zack.
I have recognized that Nojima said Cloud and Aerith would likely have their own set of problems:
1.
2.
I was very aware that it isn't proven Cloud and Aerith would have worked out better than Cloud and Tifa, and I even stated, "I know Nojima doesn't guarantee things would have gone better with Aerith."
I simply gave reasons why in my opinion, I believe Cloud and Aerith would have worked out better.
Fact is, though, we see how Cloud and Tifa work out. And it's not pretty.
And why do you believe that Cloud and Aerith would work out better? Because the problems that they would have, would most likely be more numerous than Cloud and Tifa's own.
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I agree. Nojima was always certain Cloud and Tifa would end up living together. And they did. But what Nojima wasn’t sure of (but what actually happened in the story) is that Cloud, Tifa, and Barret ended up together. Barret left the Forgotten City with Cloud and Tifa, discussed finding a home with Cloud and Tifa, came up with the idea to start a business with Cloud and Tifa, helped re-build Seventh Heaven with Cloud and Tifa, and began a family with Cloud and Tifa. Then, Marlene, Barret's daughter, invited Cloud into *HER* family.
We're gonna ignore the fact that Marlene's family didn't include Tifa or Denzel as well? Marlene's family was really just Barret. And we're just conveniently forget the fact that Cloud's family unit now includes Tifa, Denzel, and Marlene. Really if anything Marlene was included into Cloud's family unit, due to Barret's absence, not the other way around.
We're also gonna ignore the fact that Tifa and Cloud sleep together in CoT?
Here are all the quotes showing that Cloud and Tifa's relationship is not definitively romantic:
1. Tifa was trying to convince the children that there were no problems, but she lost her composure and the children soon realized something was wrong.
If anything this goes against your point, as this is an action that most parents would do to reassure their children whenever they argue.
2. After Cloud started his delivery service,*their “family” life changed greatly. It wasn’t too good. Besides morning and late night,*Cloud was usually not at home.*And of course, there were less chances for the three of them to have conversations together. Tifa closed the bar for a day during the week, but it didn’t stop Cloud from doing his job. Cloud wasn’t likely to turn down requests. I just wanted us to be able to take a day off together now and then but, I suppressed that selfishness in me.*During that time, it was Marlene who noticed a change in Cloud.*She told Tifa how Cloud would sometimes look up at the sky and not listen to her.
Which again isn't proving your point, being in a relationship doesn't mean that you have to spend every waking moment with your significant other. Also wasn't this behavior really caused by Cloud's geostigma? You know that potentially fatal disease he had? This only proves that they're having communication issues.
3. It was night, and they had closed the bar. Cloud was drinking alcohol even though he rarely did. He drained his glass. Tifa thought about it before going over and filling his glass.
“Shall I join you?” There was something she wanted to talk to him about.
“I want to drink alone.”
Hearing that, Tifa lost control and said, “Then drink in your room.”
Again not proving your point, as its only proving communication issues in their relationship, which again was caused by Cloud's deteriorating health.
4. It didn’t go well. But we were together. It was because we were family. We lived in the same house and we were living by uniting our strength. Maybe there wasn’t much conversation or many smiles, but we were family, Tifa thought to herself. No, it was what she made herself think.
What's your point here. There is no indication here that they aren't in a relationship, she is merely consoling herself with the fact that they are in a family unit.
5. Of course, there was no answer. I only heard the sound of him sleeping. I wondered if the fact that he was sleeping here meant that he was part of the family.
If anything this goes against your point, because the scene establishes that Tifa is sleeping with Cloud. Also Cloud was asleep, so of coursehe doesn't respond.
6. Tifa: “Yeah, but that's not stopping Denzel, is it? Don't run! Let's fight it together! We can help each other, I know we can.”
[Cloud is silent again.]
Tifa: “I guess that only works for real families...”
Doesn't prove your point at all. Tifa is talking about how they are a unit that supports one another, its not just about them, its about Denzel and Marlene as well. That's why she speaks about the family.
7. Tifa wondered if that smile he showed her was an illusion. After kissing the sleeping children on the face she went into Cloud’s office. She brushed away the dust on the family photo they had taken and then tried calling him. After several rings the messaging service took over.
8. "Episode Tifa"... first off, there's the premise that things won't go well between Tifa and Cloud, and that even without Geostigma or Sephiroth this might be the same."
Because this is the prequel to ACC, and we know why Cloud is isolating himself. Also Geostigma and Sephiroth aren't the only reason why was behaving the way he was, his actions were also fueled by guilt towards Zack and Aerith over his involvement in their deaths.
Also Nojima is only speaking in regards to CoT not the entire compliation itself, which tells us that they are alright at the end of things.
Because Cloti’s act as though this family and living situation sprang out of Cloud and Tifa’s love. But as I’ve established, Barret was involved in the creation of this family and living situation. Barret’s presence means this family and living situation cannot be used as evidence of Cloud and Tifa being boyfriend/girlfriend.
So you're saying that Cloud lives there as a moocher, and is sleeping with Tifa, but the doesn't have any feelings for her. Why is it that Cleriths want Cloud to be a total asshole to Tifa? And why would you want to pair up Aerith knowing that he is an asshole? It reminds me of the Macross Frontier Aruran fans.
Also we know that by the time that Denzel begins to live there we are talking about a completely different family unit, which Barret is not a part of.
I agree that Yuffie and Cid fighting in a battle together isn’t indicative of them living together. The difference is...Barret and Tifa have a history of living together on two occasions, whereas Yuffie and Cid do not have a history of living together. Plus, I said Barret and Tifa TRAVELED together. If Yuffie and Cid had traveled together to fight in a battle, after having a history of living together on two occasions, that would lead me to believe they were still living together.
And why do you believe that Cloud and Aerith would work out better? Because the problems that they would have, would most likely be more numerous than Cloud and Tifa's own.
I included the reasons why I believe Cloud and Aerith would have worked out better in my previous post. Why are you asking a question I already answered?
We're gonna ignore the fact that Marlene's family didn't include Tifa or Denzel as well? Marlene's family was really just Barret. And we're just conveniently forget the fact that Cloud's family unit now includes Tifa, Denzel, and Marlene. Really if anything Marlene was included into Cloud's family unit, due to Barret's absence, not the other way around.
Tifa already considered Barret and Marlene in her, "family of friends" back when all of AVALANCHE was living in Midgar. Tifa, Barret, and Marlene were already a family. Marlene simply invited Cloud to join their already established family.
After Barret left the Forgotten City with Cloud and Tifa, discussed finding a home with Cloud and Tifa, came up with the idea to start a business with Cloud and Tifa, helped re-build Seventh Heaven with Cloud and Tifa, and began a family with Cloud and Tifa, Marlene invited Cloud to join her family.
Answer me this: if Barret didn't consider them his family based on the events I outlined above, why did he say, "Unite the family's strength" when he left?
We have no idea which room Tifa was in when she asked Cloud, "Do you love me?"
Also -- where did Cloud sleep when Marlene always slept with Tifa?
Marlene, who had always spept with Tifa, slept with her foster father Barret the night before he left. Their conversations could be heard late into the night. ~Case of Tifa
Answer: in the bed found in Cloud's room. Just using common sense.
Tifa tried to convince the children that nothing was wrong but was *UNSUCCESSFUL*. It states in the quote, "...but she lost her composure and the children soon realized something was wrong."
You also didn't answer the part where Marlene directly tells Barret on the phone that Cloud and Tifa were having "problems".
Oh, and did you address the quote where Tifa yells at Cloud to drink in his room?
Which again isn't proving your point, being in a relationship doesn't mean that you have to spend every waking moment with your significant other. Also wasn't this behavior really caused by Cloud's geostigma? You know that potentially fatal disease he had? This only proves that they're having communication issues.
You agree Cloud and Tifa have communication issues based on the quote I provided. Most people consider communication the key to a successful relationship. So if you agree Cloud and Tifa had communication problems in the quote I provided, then Cloud and Tifa's relationship had problems -- communication problems.
Also -- the communication problems (I believe) started before Cloud got geostigma. Regardless, Nojima says that even without Sephiroth or geostigma, things between Cloud and Tifa might be the same.
Cloud has always had trouble expressing himself, long before he got geostigma.
Anyway -- you agree that this quote also points to Cloud and Tifa's communication problems. Therefore, their relationship had problems -- communication problems.
Communication is key to any successful relationship.
What's your point here. There is no indication here that they aren't in a relationship, she is merely consoling herself with the fact that they are in a family unit.
If anything this goes against your point, because the scene establishes that Tifa is sleeping with Cloud. Also Cloud was asleep, so of course[/COLOR] he doesn't respond.
We have no idea where this conversation takes place.
Furthermore, I don't care that Cloud didn't respond. That's irrelevant. What is important is that Tifa doesn't think Cloud loves her. If Tifa doesn't think Cloud loves her, that means she believes the relationship has problems. If the other half of this relationship doesn't even know if Cloud loves her, how can *YOU* be so sure Cloud loves her?
Doesn't prove your point at all. Tifa is talking about how they are a unit that supports one another, its not just about them, its about Denzel and Marlene as well. That's why she speaks about the family.
Because this is the prequel to ACC, and we know why Cloud is isolating himself. Also Geostigma and Sephiroth aren't the only reason why was behaving the way he was, his actions were also fueled by guilt towards Zack and Aerith over his involvement in their deaths.
But the deaths of his friends were a result of Sephiroth. So without Sephiroth, would Cloud have this guilt that you cite as the reason for Cloud's behavior?
So you're saying that Cloud lives there as a moocher, and is sleeping with Tifa, but the doesn't have any feelings for her. Why is it that Cleriths want Cloud to be a total asshole to Tifa? And why would you want to pair up Aerith knowing that he is an asshole? It reminds me of the Macross Frontier Aruran fans.
Cloud and Tifa have a strong bond, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are in a romantic relationship. I've listed numerous quotes/reasons that suggest Cloud and Tifa's relationship didn't go well, and there's no proof their problems were resolved.
But Barret goes back to living with Marlene in DoC. Where was Marlene living? With Cloud and Tifa.
I listed the order of events earlier in my post, and it is clear Barret helped form and create this family. Barret also said to, "Unite the family's strength" while he was way. But he was never meant to be away permanently.
BlankBeat, I'm getting the idea that you are holding a Cloud/Tifa romantic relationship up to an impossible standard. Every relationship, romantic or not, will have communication problems; it's human nature to misunderstand one another. What matters then is how people respond to communication problems. Some couples manage to sort their communication problems out and some don't. From what we see in ACC, Cloud and Tifa sort out the communication problems they were having.
The other issue is that that for the Cloud/Tifa romantic relationship to be as overt as you seem to need it to be Cloud and Tifa have to not be... Cloud and Tifa; they would have to be extremely warped versions of themselves for the relationship to be what you expect a romantic relationship to be like. No two real (or fictional) romances are the same and to expect them all to be the same is not fair to anybody.
BlankBeat, I'm getting the idea that you are holding a Cloud/Tifa romantic relationship up to an impossible standard. Every relationship, romantic or not, will have communication problems; it's human nature to misunderstand one another. What matters then is how people respond to communication problems. Some couples manage to sort their communication problems out and some don't. From what we see in ACC, Cloud and Tifa sort out the communication problems they were having.
Yes. Every relationship has communication problems. And over 50% of marriages don't work out. What I'm saying is that Cloud and Tifa didn't work out after the HA Highwind scene.
Also -- how do Cloud and Tifa "sort out" their problems in AC? Yes, Cloud's guilt is removed. But Nojima says that even without Sephiroth, things might have been the same between Cloud and Tifa. Without Sephiroth, Cloud wouldn't have had guilt.
So where do Cloud and Tifa actaully sort out their problems that may have still existed without Sephiroth?
The other issue is that that for the Cloud/Tifa romantic relationship to be as overt as you seem to need it to be Cloud and Tifa have to not be... Cloud and Tifa; they would have to be extremely warped versions of themselves for the relationship to be what you expect a romantic relationship to be like. No two real (or fictional) romances are the same and to expect them all to be the same is not fair to anybody.
I simply expect *ONE EXAMPLE* of them acting like a romantic couple. Just one.
People cite Cloud and Tifa's problems being indicative of a "real" relationship. But what is equally NOT indicative of a romantic relationship is the lack of romantic behavior that is typical of new couples.
I agree that problems are a sign of a "real" couple. But you know what else is a sign of a real couple? Physical romantic behavior. Statements of romantic feelings. Infatuation. Etc.
SE has never definitively shown us what Cloud and Tifa's relationship is. You can interpret their relationship as boyfriend/girlfriend -- but you can also interpret their relationship as not having worked out after the HA Highwind scene.
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