Strangelove, since you and Tres have been essentially arguing the exact same points, and since you jokingly thanked Tres for doing your response for you, you can take my next post as being directed towards both you and Tres, even though I’m only technically responding to Tres.
Ryu, your last post has made me think more critically about FFT. I’m currently doing some more research and will get back to you as soon as possible.
Squall Leonhart said:
And the last place we know Barret is living is somewhere off on the Corel continent prospecting for oil. So, why are you assuming that the parent went where the child is rather than the other way around?
He could have, but it could be the other way around. We plainly don't know.
The evidence in this case could be the profile itself. Which you're arguing as evidence that Barret went back to Seventh Heaven. There's absolutely nothing to indicate one way or another.
And don't bring up the "traveling together" thing again. You're once again resorting to completely erroneous argumentation when you do. Rocket Town is a long way from Wutai, but that doesn't stop Cid and Yuffie from traveling together. We're not going to assume they're living together because of it, though.
Really, there's no historical precedence for Barret living on the road? On the Way to a Smile and Advent Children would beg to differ.
It's not illogical to assume that, no, but it is not the only logical conclusion either, as you're making it sound like it is. That's the point I'm making. We don't know what the DC Complete Guide profile is indicating.
I could as easily argue that the world is going to be needing oil discoveries for a good many years yet to match the resources lost in giving up mako, so Barret probably hasn't given it up yet. And that's a logical argument. It's not the only logical argument, though, and I'm trying to get you to see that.
Exactly what you're doing, yes. Because we don't know and there's no evidence to point more in one direction than another. All we can do with Barret's current whereabouts is speculate.
Not that it matters. Why are we even talking about where Barret's living? Why do you keep harping on about him if you don't think that where he lives is relevant to Cloud and Tifa's relationship? Can we let that topic go yet?
So the world doesn't need oil? Barret wasn't out looking for it?
You have forgotten something very important: Barret *WANTS* Marlene at Seventh Heaven. His past behavior tells us this.
You say there’s a historical precedent for Barret living on the road and digging for oil. I agree. But we also know Barret intentionally decides to not take Marlene with him while he is living on the road/digging for oil. Barret realizes being on the road/digging for oil is not the best environment for Marlene, which is why he leaves Marlene in the care of Cloud and Tifa. In-fact, in FFVII, Barret leaves Marlene with those he trusts when he has other affairs to attend to. Barret’s history suggests he leaves Marlene out of environments/situations he doesn’t want her in. Why would this suddenly change in DoC? Please answer this question.
We already know Barret doesn’t want Marlene around the oil business because he leaves her at Seventh Heaven while partaking in the oil business. Therefore, it only makes sense that when Barret was done digging for oil, he went back to living with Marlene at Seventh Heaven (ie: the place he has repeatedly left Marlene while doing things he doesn’t want her involved in, one of which we know is the oil business)
In other words, we already know Barret doesn’t want Marlene around the oil business because he leaves her at Seventh Heaven while partaking in it. Barret has a history of leaving Marlene in the care of others while doing things he doesn’t want Marlene involved in. So, it only makes sense that when Barret was done doing something he doesn’t want Marlene involved, he returns to living with her at Seventh Heaven in DoC.
I bring this up because Cloti’s love to say SE chose to have Barret permanently leave Seventh Heave. They say this to build up the false notion that this family indicates a romantic relationship between Cloud and Tifa. But with Barret returning to Seventh Heaven in DoC, it makes it even clearer (than it already was) that this is a family that includes all of them and has nothing to do with Cloud and Tifa’s romantic relationship.
Squall Leonhart said:
No, I didn't. You said "But unlike Cloud and Tifa, Tidus and Yuna have an undeniable romantic moment of physical behavior," so I responded "High Affection Highwind scene?" because of the physical behavior involved there.
Apparently you didn’t read the quote I was responding to, which would have provided you with context.
Strangelove said,
“I'm going to have to go back to the newer FFX releases here again. You're showing problem, but romantic relationships can have problems.”
Strangelove was talking about *THE NEWER FFX RELEASES* (ie: after Tidus and Yuna confirmed their feelings to each other). He was making the point that Tidus and Yuna have problems in the newer FFX releases, similar to Cloud and Tifa’s problems in CoT. We were specifically talking about the relationships we see between these two couples *AFTER* they had confirmed their feelings to one another (ie: the HA Highwind scene in FFVII and the mysterious spring scene in FFX). So your example of the HA Highwind scene is irrelevant because my quote,
“But unlike Cloud and Tifa, Tidus and Yuna have an undeniable romantic moment of physical behavior,” was referring to what we see (or don’t see) between the couples *AFTER* they had confirmed their feelings to one another.
In other words, Tidus x Yuna have an undeniable romantic moment *AFTER* they confirm their feelings to each other. Cloud x Tifa do not. Therefore, even if you believe the HA Highwind scene is canon, and therefore equal to what happens between Tidus x Yuna, Yuna goes on to tell Tidus she loves him and they have a romantic embrace *AFTER* confirming their feelings to one another. Cloud and Tifa have no such scene after they confirm their feelings. In-fact, the first time Cloud and Tifa are alone after the HA Highwind scene is when Cloud expresses a desire to find Tifa’s love rival, Aerith.
Tidus x Yuna act romantically after they confirm their feelings, Cloud and Tifa do not.
Squall Leonhart said:
Not even every main official FF couple gets a romantic kind of designation on those charts (e.g. Vaan and Penelo), and, as you know, the same words used for all those other couples are used for Cloud and Tifa. That makes it a bad basis for your argument.
How many relationship charts have been released on FFXII compared to other FF’s? How are Vaan and Penelo described, and what time period is the chart referring to?
Many of the examples you have provided about couples not being described romantically IGNORES the time period the chart is referring to. For instance, Cid and Shera have been used by some as an example of a romantic couple not being described romantically in the relationship charts. But what this example ignores is that the chart Cid and Shera are described in is exclusively referring to Final Fantasy VII only. Cid and Shera were not a romantic couple until *AFTER* FFVII ends, so why would an FFVII chart list them romantically? The time period the relationship charts are referring to is critical and cannot be ignored.
Unfortunately for Cloti’s, both the FFVII and AC relationship charts list Cloud and Tifa as “childhood friends”. Interesting SE didn’t change their description to something romantic, even though the AC relationship chart is referring to their relationship *AFTER* the HA Highwind scene.
Maybe we should list how every couple has been described in the relationship charts in order to come to a conclusion on this issue. I’m sure there are some inconsistencies, but point is – SE had the perfect opportunity to highlight a change between Cloud and Tifa’s relationship when they included both an FFVII and AC relationship chart. And guess what? Cloud and Tifa are described as childhood friends in both charts, even though the AC chart is referring to their relationship AFTER the HA Highwind scene takes place. To me, this proves the HA Highwind scene doesn’t officially change the status of Cloud and Tifa’s relationship because they are described the EXACT SAME WAY (literally, the exact same way) in both the FFVII and AC relationship charts. And what further confirms their relationship didn’t change is what we see occur in CoT, especially in conjunction with Nojima’s quote and Nomura’s quote.
Squall Leonhart said:
What you said above makes sense -- i.e. the problems between Cloud and Tifa and their uncertain future may be why the charts list them as they do. That's a good argument. The reverse, though -- that the charts mean they aren't a couple -- is a bad argument, and it seems to be one of the observations you keep trying to make.
Stick to the other argument. It's a smart, analytical approach that I don't see any obvious reason to disagree with.
I have *ALWAYS* held this argument. But, I guess I needed to elaborate and say the plot of CoT is why the Advent Children relationship chart doesn’t list Cloud and Tifa as anything more than childhood friends. *IF* Cloud and Tifa were boyfriend/girlfriend, the Advent Children relationship chart would reflect this. Why do I believe this? Because the AC relationship chart appears in a book that also has an FFVII relationship chart. Why would SE list Cloud and Tifa with the same description in *BOTH* charts (if not to tell us that their relationship hasn’t changed between FFVII and AC)? Given what we know happens in CoT, it is clear as day why SE didn’t list Cloud and Tifa romantically in the AC relationship chart.
In other words, *IF* Cloud and Tifa became a couple after the HA Highwind scene, it was for a very, very, very short amount of time, if at all. So what examples do you have of Cloud and Tifa acting like a couple *AFTER* they confirm their feelings? We know they aren’t a couple in Advent Children because of CoT, the Advent Children relationship chart, Nojima’s quote, and Nomura’s quote. So... if you want to argue that Cloud and Tifa were a couple for a short amount of time after FFVII ended, fine. But I’ve yet to be presented with an unambiguous romantic moment that would confirm to me that Cloud and Tifa did, in-fact, become a couple for a brief period of time.
Unfortunately, you AGREED that Cloud and Tifa do not have an undeniable romantic moment after they confirm their feelings in the HA Highwind scene.
Me: "In other words, Tidus x Yuna have an undeniable romantic moment after they confirm their feelings. Cloud x Tifa do not."
You: "Okay, sure."
So, what are we left with? Cloud and Tifa confirmed feelings to each other in the HA Highwind scene. Then, they never have an undeniable romantic moment after they confirm their feelings to each other. Then, in CoT, things don’t go well between Cloud and Tifa according to Nojima. Then, the Advent Children relationship chart describes them as “childhood friends” because of what happens in CoT. Then, we are told Cloud and Tifa have inherent problems that are not a result of Cloud’s guilt. So, despite Cloud’s guilt being removed at the end of AC, Cloud and Tifa still have inherent problems that the children MAY be able to help them sort through. But we never see if they do, in-fact, sort through their problems. Soooooo... maybe you can tell me why some Cloti’s think Cloud x Tifa are a canon couple?
Squall Leonhart said:
When did Zidane and Dagger do any of those things? Hell, when have you ever seen a Japanese character ask "Will you be my girlfriend?" Stop setting ridiculous standards that have never been and never will be met.
Tidus x Yuna met my standard just fine. In-fact, Tidus x Yuna is the couple that was originally brought up by you and Strangelove.
Now, If Tidus and Yuna were listed as "childhood friends" in a chart referring to the period of time *AFTER* they had confirmed feelings to one another, and if they had not shared an undeniable romantic moment *AFTER* they had confirmed feelings to one another (ie: when Yuna tells Tidus she loves him and they share a romantic embrace), and if Nojima had said things didn't "go well" between them *AFTER* they had confirmed feelings to one another, and if Nomura had said he had "no clue" if they were in a romantic relationship *AFTER* they had confirmed feelings to one another, I'd also say a romantic relationship did not develop between Tidus x Yuna after they confirmed feelings to one another.
Squall Leonhart said:
Now, let's go back to what you were actually supposed to be responding to here:
"This is another one.
'50% of marriages end in divorce' doesn't nullify that there was a romantic relationship there to begin with. =P Trust the guy who's about to be divorced on this one.
Right. I’m saying that I don’t believe Cloud and Tifa were ever a couple, but *EVEN IF* they were a couple, it doesn’t automatically mean their relationship lasted forever.
Not only do we have evidence that their relationship never began, but even if it did, there’s a lot of evidence that it didn’t last for very long. Here is a summary of my evidence that I posted in a previous response:
1) SE highlighted a change between Cloud and Aerith’s relationship – “bodyguard” in FFVII chart to “guilt” in AC chart. This tells us that SE was highlighting changes between FFVII and AC *IF* changes occurred. Unfortunately for you, both the FFVII and Advent Children relationship charts list Cloud and Tifa as childhood friends because of what we see happen in CoT. The FFVII and AC charts would have been the perfect opportunity to highlight a change in Cloud and Tifa’s relationship *IF* a change in their relationship had occurred. But because of CoT, Nojima’s quote, and Nomura’s quote, Cloud and Tifa are listed as childhood friends in both the FFVII and AC relationship charts (ie: their relationship did not change *DESPITE* the HA Highwind scene taking place). Therefore, the HA Highwind scene does not officially change the status of Cloud and Tifa’s relationship because SE uses the same description --childhood friends-- in both the FFVII and AC relationship charts.
2) Cloud and Tifa have inherent communication problems that still exist even *AFTER* Cloud’s guilt is gone.
3) Nojima isn’t certain the children will be able to help Cloud and Tifa sort through their inherent problems.
4) We never see Cloud and Tifa resolve their inherent problems in Advent Children.
Squall Leonhart said:
Again, you have valid points to make, but you need to let stuff like this go when (most of) the people you're discussing the topic with are only arguing that there is a relationship there, not that it is without possibility it could fail."
So prove Cloud and Tifa were a couple after the HA Highwind scene? It seems the biggest argument Cloti’s have come up with is that Cloud and Tifa live/start a family together. But you’ve already agreed that these two things are not evidence of Cloud and Tifa being a couple because these two things came about with the help of Barret and were *NOT* a result of Cloud and Tifa’s romantic feelings. And you’ve also admitted that after expressing mutual feelings, Cloud and Tifa never have an undeniable scene of romantic behavior like Tidus and Yuna do.
You are free to hold the opinion that Cloud and Tifa became a couple, but there is nothing definitive that proves it. In-fact, most of the actual evidence proves they didn’t become a couple (Nojima’s quote, Nomura’s quote, the storyline of CoT, the AC relationship chart, having inherent problems that the children may or may not be able to fix, etc.)
Squall Leonhart said:
I was making the point that your argument was bad again. Which it was. "50% of marriages end in divorce" is not a good argument when the point you're trying to argue is "These two are not a couple."
What I was saying is that *EVEN IF* you believe Cloud and Tifa became a couple, it doesn’t mean they stayed a couple as evidence by what happens in CoT, Nojima’s quote, Nomura’s quote, the Advent Children relationship chart describing them as “childhood friends,” and the children *POSSIBLY* being able to help them sort through their problems.
Squall Leonhart said:
How messed up Cloud is because of his guilt? That he believes he doesn't deserve a family or happiness?
Tifa doesn’t know most of these things? Really?
And even if Tifa doesn’t know these things, that is because of their inherent communication problems (ie: Cloud not telling Tifa he’s tormented by guilt/undeserving of a family/happiness). Therefore, because of these inherent communication problems, Tifa thinks Cloud doesn’t love her.
To be honest, it doesn’t really matter if Tifa believes things that aren’t true. Perception is reality. And in Tifa’s reality, she questions if Cloud loves her. And if Tifa questions if Cloud loves her (even if for invalid reasons), the fact that these reasons are invalid doesn’t change HER perception. And since Tifa is the other half of this relationship, her invalid perception influences their relationship. I know plenty of couples that have been negatively impacted and/or broken up over an unfortunate misunderstanding. Tifa may be misunderstanding Cloud’s behavior, but this misunderstanding is still, at the end of the day, negatively impacting their relationship.
And, again, I’d attribute Tifa not knowing if Cloud loves her to their communication problems, a problem that is still present after Cloud’s guilt is removed; a problem that carries on after AC/C ends. All of this doesn’t bode well for their future, IMO.
Squall Leonhart said:
Yes, it does. But you know stuff Tifa doesn't. You shouldn't be deferring to her when you know she's naturally inclined to assume the worst and is working with incomplete information.
So what? Tifa’s misunderstanding is because of the inherent communication problems between herself and Cloud. And yes, we do know of things that Cloud *SHOULD* be telling his “girlfriend”. But because Cloud doesn’t tell Tifa the things that we know, it leads to a misunderstanding, and therefore negatively impacts their relationship. It’s unfortunate that Tifa is basing her belief that Cloud doesn’t love her on incorrect/incomplete information, but she does. And because she does, IT IS, at the end of the day, negatively impacting their relationship.
And again – why does Tifa feel that Cloud doesn’t love her? Because Cloud isn’t communicating with her the reasons for his shitty behavior. Therefore, this is yet another example of their communication problems. And unfortunately, Cloud and Tifa have never been shown to resolve their communication problems.
Squall Leonhart said:
They aren't. Cid and Yuffie are traveling together. Later, Vincent, Cid and Yuffie are traveling together. And Cloud is with Barret and Tifa at the time they're seen together.
So, what are you even talking about here?
Cid and Yuffie travel together? I didn’t know that.
And of course Cloud is seen at the time Barret and Tifa are traveling together. Those three live together at Seventh Heaven.
Squall Leonhart said:
(pg. 27)
----
After settling things with Sephiroth, Tifa attempts to escape with Cloud from the crumbling hole at the Great Northern Cave’s extreme depths. Getting something of a hunch as to understanding the Promised Land’s meaning, he thinks he can meet someone … In response, she smiles and says “Yeah, let’s go meet her.” The person they’re talking about meeting is, of course, Aerith. As for the "Promised Land" …
Japanese text:
セフィロスとの決着をつけたのち、くずれつつある大空洞の最深部の穴からクラウドとふたりで脱出をはかるティファ。”約束の地”の意味がわかったような気がす る、そこで会 えると思う……と言うクラウドに向かって、彼女は微笑み「会いに行こう」と語る。会いに行く相手は、もちろんエアリス。そして”約束の地”……。
Scan:
http://thelifestream.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/ddssf3.jpg
Not that it is relevant to this discussion, but I'd love to know what this passage says about the Promised Land. Anyway...
The quote doesn't say, "...he thinks *THEY* can meet someone" it says, "...he thinks *HE* can meet someone..." Then, Tifa responds to Cloud and says, "Yeah, let's go meet her."
Did you catch that? The quote you just provided says, “...*HE* thinks *HE* can meet someone...” it doesn’t say, “...*HE* thinks *THEY* can meet someone...” If anything, the quote you provided tells us that Cloud’s line has been translated correctly, “I (he) think(s) I (he) can meet her (someone)...there”
Now, at the end of the quote it says the person they are talking about meeting is Aerith. Cloud is talking about meeting Aerith alone, Tifa is talking about meeting Aerith with Cloud. WE WERE JUST TOLD THAT IN THE PREVIOUS SENTENCE. So all we know from this is that Cloud thinks HE (not they) can meet Aerith ( “...he thinks *HE* can meet someone...”
But thanks for providing me with a quote that confirms Cloud’s line was, in-fact, translated correctly on *BOTH* occasions.
Squall Leonhart said:
Then there's also this:
(pg. 203)
----
Goodbye to Bugenhagen
When Red XIII refers to Bugenhagen’s passing away as him having “gone on a journey,” the team realize what has happened and answer that they “might meet him again somewhere.” If all people return to the Lifestream in the end, then they will in fact see Bugenhagen again someday. This line of thinking also shows up in Cloud and Tifa’s dialogue in the ending (->P.206).
Japanese text:
ブーゲンハーゲンとの別れ
永眠したブーゲンハーゲンを「旅に出た」と表現するレッドXIIIに、事情を察したクラウドたちは「どこかで会えるかも」と応じる。人がみな最後はライフストリームへ還る というなら、実際、ブーゲンハーゲンともいずれかならず会うことになるのだろう。このような考えかたは、エンディングでのクラウドとティファのやり取り（→P.206）に も現れている。
Scan:
http://thelifestream.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/ddssf5.jpg
Right. The dialogue of Cloud and Tifa at the end of FFVII is Cloud talking about meeting Aerith by himself, and Tifa talking about meeting Aerith together with Cloud.
Squall Leonhart said:
Only he didn't. You're making up words that plainly aren't there and aren't implied.
Hell, the precedent of things Cloud had said before argues against the claim you're making. After Aerith died, Cloud said "I should quit this journey. Before I do something terrible. But I am going" and "I must go on," then asks "Will you all come with me?"
His use of "I" in the above was not excluding anyone even though he actually did use the pronoun "I" (俺; "ore") in this sentence (でも、俺は行く
. Likewise for "I must go on" (俺は、行かなくてはならない
.
He didn't say a thing about "I alone" and you need to stop claiming otherwise. You're verifiably wrong given what Cloud and Tifa were actually discussing (meeting their loved ones again if they die), which has been a point made to you several times, yet you keep ignoring it in favor of arguing for a scenario that doesn't exist.
Right. Cloud says, “Will you all come with me?” after saying, “I must go on” But Cloud never asks Tifa if she will go with him to the Promised Land. That’s the difference between these two scenarios. Cloud actually asks everyone if they will go with him, but he never asks Tifa to go with him to the Promised Land. That is a HUGE distinction.
Furthermore, the sentence in Japanese HAS NO PRONOUNS. Therefore, we don't know for sure whether it should be translated as "I" or "we". The only translations we have is in the FFVII/Reminiscence, and both times, it is translated to “I”.
But the quote you provided says that, “...he thinks *HE* can find someone...” – so doesn’t that tell us Cloud’s line was translated correctly?
The quote you provided doesn’t say, “...he thinks THEY can meet someone...," it says, “...he thinks *HE* can meet someone...” So, if anything, the quote you provided backs-up Cloud’s line being translated to:
“I (he) think(s) I (he) can meet her (someone)...there”
Point is -- when it comes to Aerith, Cloud doesn't want Tifa around as evidenced by going to Aerith's Church and not inviting/bringing Tifa (even after she asks to go).
These two scenarios are very similar:
Cloud finds out he can meet/find Aerith in the Promised Land.
Tifa tells Cloud she wants to go, too.
Cloud doesn't respond to her request.
Tifa finds out Cloud had gone to Aerith's Church.
Tifa tells Cloud she wants to go, too.
Cloud doesn't respond to her request and ends up living at Aerith's Church without telling Tifa.
Coincidence? I think not!
Squall Leonhart said:
What you fail to recognize is that a) SE didn't translate it either time (it was Sony of Japan the first time and Sony Pictures the second time), b) Cloud wasn't excluding Tifa (claiming it a thousand more times will not make it any less wrong than the first time you said it), and c) Cloud was talking about how they would get to meet their dead loved ones again if they didn't survive Meteor.
So now English translated quotes can’t be accepted because SE didn’t directly translate them? Wouldn’t that point-of-view end the entire LTD debate? And if you want to say that the translations by Sony in the FFVII/Reminiscence don't count, then the sentences about "mutual feelings" written by Studio BentStuff instead of SE don't "prove" Cloti is canon, right?
Squall Leonhart said:
A claim I didn't make and irrelevant to the point on the table. You're trying to argue that an English translation should take precedent, and official English translations have made notable errors time after time, even when the translation as a whole was good.
FFXII is an example (the timeline thing), FFXIII is an example ("War of Transgression" is wrong; it should be "War of Revelation"; the Norse mythology reference between Ragnarok and the name of the war is completely lost there), FFXIII-2 is an example (official translation has Noel claiming to be the last child who was born; not what he said in the Japanese; also, Yeul was actually the last child born), Case of Tifa is an example (official translation has Cloud informing Elmyra of Aerith's death, even though she had already been told by Reeve in the original game; the Japanese text has him simply talking to her about Aerith's death and burial), and there's probably at least one notable example where something of significance is lost in every other official translation.
You're subscribing to a thoroughly invalid line of reasoning and you have no good reason to stick to it.
No one denies that translation errors occur. But what is your evidence that Cloud’s line, “I think I can meet/find her... there” is translated wrong?
The fact that the line was translated in English twice suggests the line has been thoroughly vetted. Furthermore, the quote you provided tells us the line has been translated correctly.
Here is part of the quote you provided: “...he thinks *HE* can meet someone...” = “I (he) think(s) I (he) can meet her (someone)... there”. The quote you provided DOESN’T say, “...he thinks THEY can meet someone...” So, thanks for proving BOTH English translations were translated correctly.
Squall Leonhart said:
How are you making that connection? She wonders if the smile was an illusion because he left home at that point and apparently wasn't coming back. The calls are not the basis for that.
Tifa wonders if Cloud’s smile was an illusion, and then she tries to reach him and he doesn’t answer, confirming what she thought.
Squall Leonhart said:
Alright then, there we go.
Just to help you out, though, I don't think you quite understand the order of events based on this bit you said later to hito:
So you forgot Tifa’s line where she says Cloud, “...Never calls” ???
You said: “Show us where it's implied Cloud didn't return those missed calls and you'll have something.”
So now you finally admit that Cloud didn’t return those missed calls?
Squall Leonhart said:
"Definitively" was never the objective. And I notice that you left out responding to the bit where Cloud blushes.
You can maybe excuse the rest of those things without it, but the blushing gives the whole thing an undeniably romantic overtone, especially in light of this being a Japanese work.
Nothing you have provided is indicative of a romantic relationship between Cloud and Tifa.
And if blushing is as far as Cloud and Tifa’s romantic relationship got after the HA Highwind scene takes place, and before Nojima’s premise that things didn’t go well between them came into effect, that’s pretty sad, IMO.
Squall Leonhart said:
Sure, I'll agree with "consistently." That word is understood to mean "most of the time" or that it's an expected or defining characteristic -- e.g. "consistently on time for work." You wouldn't say "constantly on time for work," though, if they were late on the rare occasion that their car broke down or they had to pick up their kid from school.
Call that nitpicking if you want, but it's not a bad thing when you're striving for successful communication.
While on the subject, Cloud and Tifa do consistently have bad communication and an awkward degree of distance for people who are closer to each other than to anyone else.
Yes, I would definitively call that nitpicky.
Even if the definition I was using is technicality not the primary definition, it is still included in the definition by Merriam-Webster dictionary:
Constant: happening all the time *OR* very often over a period of time.
Squall Leonhart said:
The bed in Cloud's office, you mean? Assuming the group had proper bedrooms set up in that first week the business was opened, sure, probably.
Where is it stated that it is an office as opposed to room? Can we trust your translation since SE didn’t directly translate it?
Bottom line is: where did Cloud sleep when Marlene slept with Tifa? Answer: the bed found in his room/office.
Squall Leonhart said:
Common sense says Cloud is out running deliveries, which is shown to be the case when we see the same footage in Reminiscence. Common sense would also say that including the footage of the flowers was a symbolic way of reminding viewers that Aerith will always be with Cloud -- not that he's out looking for a ghost in a flower field.
And you aren't even being consistent here. First, you say he can connect with her in the church and that he realizes this in the ending of the film, so it's his Promised Land, but then you turn around and say he's out trying to find her in the flower fields instead of at the church.
Why do you have to make everything about Aerith? Seriously, it's ridiculous, misses the entire point of the film, and -- were it true -- would make Advent Children drivel on the order of "Twilight."
Cloud and Aerith are seen back-to-back in a flower field during AC. It only makes sense Cloud would view this as another way to be with Aerith.
And why do I associate the flower fields at the end of AC/C with Aerith?
Nomura said in the Reunion Files that,
“…we filmed the video for the ending credits in Hawaii. There are fields of flowers on both sides of the road, and the colors - yellow and white - are the same as the flowers in Aerith’s church.”
In addition, Nomura states,
“With Aerith, ‘flowers’ have been her image throughout the series.”
Clearly, the last images SE wanted to leave us with was Cloud riding his motorcycle through flower fields that represent Aerith.
Given that SE created AC to be an interpretative piece of art, I view Cloud riding through flower fields (that are stated to represent Aerith) as a way for SE to tell us that Aerith is still the girl for Cloud. On the other hand, you view it as Cloud simply continuing on with his business, despite the flower fields Cloud is riding through being explicitly stated to represent Aerith.
To each their own, I guess.
Squall Leonhart said:
So, what's your point here? He didn't care about her?
Really, what's your argument? Why are you shifting gears now that you know he was home every night?
And you're making another argument that the words themselves don't imply. First, it was the use of "I" implies no one else can be included. Now, it's "Cloud always made sure he had time at night for the kids" implies he didn't make sure he had time for anything else? Even though we're told Cloud and Tifa's happy conversations resumed?
All I wanted were the quotes, so thanks for providing them.
However, based on the quotes, we are told that the kids (not Tifa) are the primary reason Cloud returned home in the evenings. This signifies that perhaps Cloud wouldn’t have returned home if it weren’t for the kids, which is probably why Nojima says the kids MAY be able to help Cloud and Tifa work through their issues.
In other words, without the kids, the issues between Cloud and Tifa would have likely kept Cloud away permanently. Luckily, the kids brought Cloud back (as stated in the quotes), and allowed for Cloud and Tifa to POSSIBLY work out their issues.
Squall Leonhart said:
We've been agreeing with that for forever, but you still just keep bringing Barret up again.
So you disagree with Ryu and others when they use this family/living situation as evidence of Cloud and Tifa being boyfriend/girlfriend?
Squall Leonhart said:
If you look at the text of Episode:Barret, it's clear that Seventh Heaven isn't Barret's home. Ownership is ascribed to Cloud and Tifa, and in this sentence, at the actual exclusion of Barret, unlike that "find her there" thing you keep bringing up.
Of course in Episode: Barret the ownership is ascribed to Cloud and Tifa -- Barret doesn't technically live there in Episode: Barret. But he returns to Seventh Heaven in DoC (ie: the place he helped rebuild, and essentially the same place he lived at during the beginning of FFVII)
Squall Leonhart said:
You aren't wrong here at all. It's just important to remember that the reason Denzel allows Cloud to be happy again is because it grants him a way to redeem himself and earn happiness.
Right. Cloud believes Aerith gave him the opportunity to redeem himself and earn happiness through Denzel. Cloud, Denzel, Aerith, and Cloud’s happiness are all interconnected. Denzel, not Tifa, is the reason Cloud started to become happy with his family situation again. And who gave Denzel to Cloud according to Cloud? Aerith.
Squall Leonhart said:
Aerith: "Why have you come?"
Cloud: "I want to be forgiven."
That’s why Cloud went to Aerith's Church when he found Denzel?
Squall Leonhart said:
Because the reason you gave was that Nojima was talking about some wacky ass alternate reality in which FFVII and Episode:Tifa never happened. You arrived at a valid argument/conclusion. You got there on untenable grounds.
The reasoning is what I responding to. Agreeing with your conclusion doesn't mean I can't disagree with your reasoning.
Isn't what I was responding to.
But Nojima talks about an alternate reality where Aerith lives, which would have changed the entire outcome of FFVII and CoT because Holy would have never been summoned. Clearly, Nojima isn’t afraid to speak of alternative realities that would drastically change the plot of the FFVII compilation. Unfortunately, we will never know exactly what Nomura meant when he said things would be the same between Cloud and Tifa without Sephiroth. He could have been referring solely to Sephiroth causing Geostigma, or he could have been referring to *EVERYTHING* Sephiroth had done up until that point (ie: killing Aerith/indirectly killing Zack).
One question I have is why does Nojima mention BOTH Geostigma and Sephiroth if he is talking about Sephiroth causing Geostigma? Wouldn’t the mention of Geostigma by itself have sufficed? Wouldn’t it have made more sense for him to say, “Even without Sephiroth *causing* Geostigma, things would have been the same between Cloud and Tifa.” It seems Nojima mentions both Geostigma and Sephiroth because he is *NOT* solely referring to Sephiroth causing Geostigma, but is referring to everything Sephiroth had done up until that point. It’s as if Nojima is making it a point to separate Geostigma from Sephiroth so we know he is talking about more than just Sephiroth causing Geostigma.
But at the end of the day, it is irrelevant what Nojima meant because the big-picture is that Cloud and Tifa’s problems are inherent and have nothing to do with extenuating circumstances that occur in FFVII, CoT, or AC. Nojima states that after AC/C, the children may be able to help them sort through their problems. Therefore, Cloud and Tifa have problems that still need to be tended to and were not resolved in AC/C. Until we know if these problems were resolved, it is uncertain if Cloud and Tifa are in a relationship.
Mirroring their first encounter from VII isn't the only thing, but it is significant. Yes, Cloud would have probably tried to help anyone, same as he would have given his life in Dissidia for any of his friends, but that these things involve Aerith and Tifa respectively -- and were deliberate choices in someone's part -- bears remark.
Other stuff that's notable in the Tactics cameo is Cloud being an Aquarius here (like Aerith) when he should be a Leo, and his being able to equip the Ribbon. It's not a reference to his crossdressing stint since he can't equip other female-only gear, and because this item isn't one of the accessories more similar to the stuff he could actually aquire to go crossdressing in FFVII.
Cloud is the only male character able to equip a ribbon.
Cloud has a flower themed limit break.
And yes, I agree that Cloud would have protected any of this friends. But SE *INTENTIONALLY* decided to have the person Cloud protected be none other than Aerith, the girl he swore to protect when he agreed to be her bodyguard.
Honestly, why would SE choose to set up an eerily similar scenario in FFT?
Final Fantasy Tactics:
Flower Peddler:
"Buy a flower? Only 1 gil."
Final Fantasy VII:
Flower Girl:
"Oh, these? Do you like them? They're only a gil...."
Then, after having these similar conversations...
Cloud protected Aerith from being captured by the Turks in FFVII.
Cloud protected Aerith from being captured by thugs FFT.
Coincidence? I think not.
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