The Love Triangle Debate: Another Turn in the Cycle

[Dashell]

Because the man has a god damn functioning penis and both women are attractive.

Is your source on this reliable?

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

but I can't believe you are repeating the same behavior

The irony. It is palpable.

 

[BlankBeat]

Here are both of my responses to Tres and Ryu:

Tres, I hope I answered all of the questions you say I haven’t answered. I spent a lot of time with this response, so I hope everything is covered.

Not that I see anywhere, but it's included with the DVD anyway. Just put the disc in.

I don't own a copy of the Advent Children DVD. Can someone tell me how we know the film on the DVD is specifically from the Venice Film Festival?

They probably shouldn't in the first place since not everything is about who Cloud wants to bone.

I'm simply making the point that the homage in AC makes it clear that the hand reach scene is about Cloud reuniting with Aerith and has nothing to do with Tifa. The homage in AC sheds light on the intent of the hand reach scene in FFVII.

You're getting entirely into unverifiable territory here. Her expression could be many things, including a calm comfort in the notion that they can all be together again in the Lifestream if they still die.

Yes, it is my opinion that Tifa's expression was a sad expression. Obviously you won't agree with my opinion, but body language isn't something to be ignored. Don't Cloti's obsess about Cloud's smile (or lack-thereof) at the end of AC/C?

And yes, everyone returns to the lifestream. But not everyone returns to specific Promised Land’s. Cloud isn't including Tifa in his Promised Land, but he obviously can't stop Tifa from returning to the lifestream (which is where Cloud's Promised Land with Aerith is)

Tifa going back to the lifestream with Cloud =/= Tifa going to Cloud and Aerith’s Promised Land that is within the lifestream

Or, rather, Aerith is there.

Aerith is in Cloud's Promised Land by his own admission. Thus, being with Aerith is (at least part) of Cloud's Promised Land.

But there's clearly more to it than that, and you need to stop pretending there isn't. He was reunited with her on the way to the Ancients' city in Advent Children, and he was still miserable. There was no joy in that reunion for him. No Promised Land.

There's more to it than Aerith. That's completely verifiable and inarguable.

1. Where is your proof Cloud was miserable during the moment he re-united with Aerith on his way to the Ancients' city? I know there's proof of him being miserable before and possibly after, but where is your proof that Cloud was miserable in that very moment? I'd love to see your evidence of this.

2. In the FFVII AU, it says, "Aerith wants to take away the burden on his mind, she greets him with a tender, teasing voice..."

What is Cloud's burden that Aerith is trying to take away? Cloud's guilt. Aerith tells Cloud in this scene that she never blamed him, thus starting the process of healing his guilt. Why would Cloud be miserable in a scene where Aerith is beginning to remove his guilt? Wouldn't Cloud be elated to hear the words, "I never blamed you… not once"?

3. You say, "Cloud's problem is feeling guilty about Aerith's death, but Cloud was miserable as he received her forgiveness."

What the hell? Why would Cloud be miserable while receiving forgiveness from the very thing that was making him miserable?

4. Just because this particular moment isn't described as Cloud's Promised Land doesn't negate the fact that the two places that have been described as Cloud's Promised Land have one thing in common: Aerith. Maybe standing back-to-back with Aerith was Cloud’s Promised Land or maybe it wasn't? We'll never know for sure because SE hasn't said anything either way. But where is your proof Cloud was miserable in that moment? Common sense suggests otherwise.

5. I always thought the back-to-back flower field sequence took place in Cloud’s mind. It was more of a spiritual moment between them rather than Aerith taking physical form like she did when she reached down through the lifestream/appeared in her Church.

More than likely, the "our" was in reference to herself and the voices around her that she was speaking to.

And, no, the entire passage wasn't about her feelings for Cloud. The preceding few paragraphs were about there still being work she needed to do.

1. The voices in the paragraph aren't 'talking' to Aerith, she's merely sensing them nearby. The thing that 'speaks' to Aerith is the planet, similar to how the planet spoke to Cloud at the end of FFVII. In other words, Aerith is communicating with the planet *NOT* the voices. So your theory that the "our" is in reference to the voices is inaccurate because Aerith isn’t talking to the voices, she’s talking to the planet (something she has done ever since she was a little girl)

2. This passage has Aerith talking about herself and Cloud. Aerith mentions meeting Cloud and what would happen if they met. In addition, Aerith says she is in "OUR" Promised Land immediately before the narrative voice says,

"Wishing she could send away her thoughts, Aerith looked up at the sky… She looked beyond the shell of the Planet above her head. The particles of Mako that floated and shouted around looked like the night sky to her. She looked up into the sky like the time she sat beside Cloud around kindling fire in Cosmo Canyon."

Therefore, while in this Promised Land, Aerith is reminded of a romantic moment between herself and Cloud in Cosmo Canyon. Narratively, it makes sense that "our" Promised Land is in reference to Cloud and Aerith's Promised Land, the same Promised Land Cloud is referring to at the end of FFVII.

Aerith is in the lifestream, but she is also in a Promised Land. This particular Promised Land is filled with thoughts about Aerith’s romance with Cloud, thus giving Aerith the feeling of happiness, the exact feeling that is required to be in ones Promised Land. Aerith tells the Planet about this particular Promised Land that is within the lifestream. Then, Cloud asks the Planet a question, and the Planet tells Cloud he can find Aerith in the same Promised Land Aerith was in and told the Planet about in MoT.

Aerith tells the Planet about hers and Cloud’s Promised Land that is *WITHIN* the lifestream –> The Planet tells Cloud about this Promised Land at the end of FFVII

It's not something I've ignored. There's just nothing there to discuss. They have no thematic relationship. Were that intended to be the case, it wasn't built up at all. There's nothing to link Dyne to Cloud and nothing linking Aerith with Eleanor.

Cloud may have some issues, but he's not a homicidal maniac who planned to kill everyone in the world. And what do we know about Eleanor that she has in common with Aerith other than being dead?

There is a bigger theme I'm getting at.
--Dyne had guilt due to his wife's death.
--Cloud had guilt due to Aerith’s death.

--Aerith removed Dyne’s guilt.
--Aerith removed Cloud’s guilt.

--After Dyne’s guilt was removed, he reunited with his love, Eleanor, in the lifestream.
--Zack and Aerith tell Cloud he doesn’t belong in the lifestream yet, but we already know Cloud and Aerith have a Promised Land within the lifestream (Cloud says so and Aerith says so). So, once Cloud is ready to go to the lifestream, he will be reunited with Aerith in the lifestream the same way Dyne was reunited with his wife, Eleanor.

To me, that is a rather prefect parallel if you don’t get bogged down with, “Well Cloud isn’t a homicidal maniac!” (as if that has any relevance to the parallel’s I’m pointing out)

Comments like this are why I find it so disingenuous when you claim that you do think Cloud loved both Aerith and Tifa the same. You say that but then act like only one of them gave him any happiness, and when I've asked you why both women he's in love with wouldn't be in his personal Promised Land, you skip the question entirely.

I'm not letting you do it anymore.

Let me give you an example. Maybe that will convey my beliefs better.

Rose in Titanic moved on from Jack. She married some random guy and started a family with him. But in the story, Rose says that Jack touched her in a way no man had done before or since, and that she would never forget him. Then, when Rose dies, she returns to Jack at the end of the film. I don't think this is a very hard concept to grasp…it's shown in one of the most famous films of all-time.

In other words, you can romantically love two people but you can obviously love one person more. As a Clerith, I believe Cloud loved Aerith more than Tifa. So... I’m not sure why you act so surprised when I make arguments that build up Cloud x Aerith.

Only he didn't say that. He said he could find Aerith in the Promised Land (i.e. Lifestream), not that being with Aerith is his Promised Land. There is a very big difference in the meaning there despite many of the same words being involved.

The lifestream is Cloud's Promised Land because he can find Aerith in the lifestream. That is what the Planet said in response to his question.

Both times Cloud's Promised Land is spoken of, Cloud is either speaking of finding Aerith directly in his Promised Land, or his Promised Land is said to be where Aerith can appear and was happiest (ie: her Church). Aerith, on both occasions, coincides directly with Cloud's Promised Land.

We know that everyone returns to the lifestream, but not everyone returns to specific Promised Land's. A Promised Land is a feeling, not a place. This is why Cloud wasn’t including or excluding Tifa -- she will return to the lifestream, but she won't be returning to Cloud and Aerith’s Promised Land that is *WITHIN* the lifestream.

The fatal flaw of your argument is how can Cloud’s friends and family be his Promised Land when Cloud has already spoken of a Promised Land with Aerith in the lifestream? Please answer that.

To summarize...Promised Land's are a feeling that can happen anywhere. This feeling for Cloud --his Promised Land-- occurs with Aerith in the lifestream or with Aerith as she appears in her Church.

While you gloss over how he was miserable as fuck even while reunited with Aerith when he was still under the weight of all his guilt.

Where is your proof that Cloud was miserable in that very moment?

The entire point of that scene was for Aerith to remove Cloud's burden (ie: his guilt). Why would Cloud be miserable during a scene where Aerith was removing the very thing that was making him miserable?

-Why wasn't Cloud happy when he was first reunited with her if she is all it takes for him to have his Promised Land?

Where is your proof that Cloud wasn’t happy standing back-to-back with Aerith?

Why would Cloud be miserable while receiving forgiveness from the very thing that made him miserable?

-Why doesn't Cloud say anything about loving or missing Aerith when he is reunited with her? Why does he immediately jump to guilt?

Because if Aerith blames Cloud for her death, a love between them is futile. Cloud must know that Aerith doesn't blame him in order for their relationship to go forward.

And please, don’t ignore this second part:

Dyne had to be removed of his guilt before he could be reunited with his wife, Eleanor, in the lifestream. Same logic applies to Cloud and Aerith. Cloud needs to have his guilt removed before anything else can transpire between himself and Aerith. Therefore, Cloud’s guilt is obviously the most pressing issue when he and Aerith are back-to-back in the flower field. Cloud’s guilt must be removed first before a love between him and Aerith can exist – same as what happened with Dyne and his wife, Eleanor.

Guilt first. Love second.

-Why is there a laundry list of situations and people (family, friends, being free of guilt, the children cured) mentioned in the passage about Cloud's Promised Land if it's only about Aerith?

Because that particular passage is about how Cloud isn't meat to join Aerith and Zack in the lifestream yet. Both Zack and Aerith *SPECIFICALLY* and *DIRECTLY* tell Cloud he isn't meant to join them in the lifestream yet. Therefore, Cloud realizes he is meant to live with his “family and friends” *UNTIL* he is meant to return to the lifestream. That is what the passage says.

Once Cloud finally belongs in the lifestream, he will reunite with Aerith in the Promised Land Aerith refers to in MoT and the Promised Land Cloud refers to at the end of FFVII. In the meantime, however, Cloud can find Aerith in her Church, which is also stated to be his Promised Land.

Remember...according to Aerith, ones Promised Land is a *FEELING* one gets. When Cloud saw Aerith reaching down to him at the end of FFVII, Cloud *FELT* his Promised Land. He says so. Then, in AC, Cloud can also find Aerith in her Church. Her Church is another place where Cloud has *FELT* his Promised Land.

To determine what causes Cloud to *FEEL* his Promised Land, his statement at the end of FFVII and SE’s statement about Cloud’s Promised Land can’t contradict each other. What is the one similarity between Cloud’s statement at the end of FFVII and SE’s statement about Cloud’s Promised Land in AC? Finding Aerith.

Whether it's Aerith's Church or the lifestream, it is wherever Cloud can find Aerith that is stated to be Cloud’s Promised Land. Both Cloud and SE say this. Cloud’s Promised Land obviously can’t be his friends and family because Cloud has already stated he has a Promised Land in the lifestream with Aerith. Once Cloud is done living with his friends and family, and is finally meant to join the lifestream, he will return the Promised Land Aerith speaks of in MoT and Cloud speaks of at the end of FFVII.

In other words, both times Cloud got the feeling that is required for a Promised Land have been in Aerith’s presence. SHE is the common denominator. SHE is the only way both statements regarding Cloud’s Promised Land don’t contradict each other.

You really paint Cloud to be an absolute douchewad.

He wouldn't have felt guilt that someone died because of him unless he personally knew them? Come on, really?

You talk about it like it's completely verifiable when it isn't. It's never even been mentioned in relation to his guilt.

Yes, he had romantic love for her. Do we have reason to believe that this love is the only reason -- not standing right there while she was butchered after nearly doing the deed himself -- he feels so guilty? We don't.

There are many factors involved (including what I just mentioned) that would be equally relevant to a normal person. That you act like he wouldn't give a shit if there was nothing in it for him makes me concerned for you sometimes.

Of course Cloud would feel guilty for letting someone else die. I'm specifically explaining why he felt guilty for letting Aerith and Zack die.

But I do think there are different degrees of guilt. Would you feel as guilty if you let a random person die as opposed to someone you loved romantically or platonically? Probably not.

Then where was his Promised Land when he was first reunited with her?

The lifestream

He specifically says no such thing and you're making that up.

And, yes, Cloud being free of his guilt is paramount to having his Promised Land. It's one of the things emphasized in the passage describing his Promised Land. He wasn't happy even when reunited with Aerith. He only talked about guilt when he was reunited with her.

You aren't going to get to pretend these things aren't true.

It is essential for Cloud to know Aerith forgives him in order to successfully have a Promised Land with her. The same scenario takes place with Dyne and his wife, Eleanor. Dyne must have his guilt removed before he is able to successfully see and reunite with his wife in the lifestream. And guess what? Once Cloud’s guilt is removed, SE says that the place where Cloud awakens is his Promised Land. This place is Aerith’s Church – the only place Cloud has been able to see Aerith face-to-face since her death. Dyne was also only able to see and reunite with his wife once his guilt was removed, too.

Anyway –

Zack and Aerith tell Cloud he doesn't belong in the lifestream yet because he is meant to live with his friends and family. This is why (in the meantime) Cloud can get the feeling that is required for ones Promised Land in Aerith's Church. But once Cloud is meant to return to the lifestream, he will return to the same Promised Land Aerith speaks of in MoT and the same Promised Land Cloud speaks of at the end of FFVII.

The Promised Land is a *FEELING* one gets. Cloud gets this feeling in Aerith’s Church because he is finally reunited with Aerith (it is the first time Cloud is able to see her face to face). Cloud also gets this feeling when he sees Aerith reaching down to him from the lifestream. Therefore, both SE and Cloud have said wherever Cloud can find Aerith is his Promised Land.

To determine what causes Cloud to *FEEL* his Promised Land, his statement at the end of FFVII and SE’s statement about Cloud’s Promised Land can’t contradict each other. What is the one similarity between Cloud’s statement at the end of FFVII and SE’s statement about Cloud’s Promised Land in AC? Finding Aerith.

His history and past behavior include expressing guilt that he has left her with others.

Stop acting like he's trying to protect her from some big, bad oil industry. He was trying to protect her from himself. He didn't even know he was going to be getting involved with oil when he left.

Who knows. Both ways feel believable to me.

Well, that's all I wanted to hear you say on this matter, so thank you.

As to whether it's the most plausible scenario, I'm not sure what I think. It really comes down to whether it's more plausible he's decided his work is done (i.e. the world's energy needs` are resolved, at least for the time being). We don't have enough information to arrive at an informed opinion on that.

How is it an unlikely scenario when other scattered members of the team end up coming together for the WRO's raid on Midgar? It's no more unlikely than the other scenarios that definitely do play out.

The burden of proof is on you to show me where it is even suggested that Barret took Marlene away from Seventh Heaven. We already know Barret *LEFT* Marlene at Seventh Heaven for four years. It only makes sense that Barret would return to the place he left her.

And I don’t think it is a coincidence that SE shows Cloud, Tifa, and Barret traveling together. You know, the three people that rebuilt Seventh Heaven and formed a family together.

This is an example of the thing you do with sentences all the time that you need to stop doing. You see a statement that Cloud is living with Tifa and you insert the word "only" there, as though you really see it in the sentence when it isn't there at all and nothing about the sentence implies "only."

You obviously missed my point. Cloud’s profile says he is living with only Tifa. Yet, Denzel’s profile says he is living with Cloud *AND* Tifa. Therefore, Cloud’s profile only mentioning Tifa is misleading and confusing. That was my point.

When you say things like this it gives the impression that the other charts list a relationship status for couples like Celes/Locke, Squall/Rinoa, etc. -- and they don't. They mention an emotion, which has also been used to describe Cloud and Tifa's feelings for one another.

I keep telling you this flowchart argument is stupid. I wish so much you would stop.

This is why our debates never go anywhere. You want me to accept your *OPINION* that my argument is stupid. As if your opinion carries more weight than mine.

Anyway –

Most of the time SE includes *ONE* relationship chart. But in this instance, SE included two charts: one for FFVII and one for AC. Therefore, we are able to compare and contrast the two charts and see if any changes are made between the two time periods. Cloud and Tifa are listed as "childhood friends" in both charts. No evolution in their relationship is revealed between the two charts. This would have been the perfect opportunity to show Cloud and Tifa evolving from "childhood friends" to "lovers"; but SE used the exact same description for both the FFVII and AC charts. This proves their official relationship status doesn’t change. In other words, Cloud and Tifa are not officially romantic partners, they are officially childhood friends. *THAT* is the point I'm making.

In what other instances are two charts provided and a couple given the *SAME* description in *BOTH* charts, despite each chart referring to a *DIFFERENT* time period? Please answer that question.

A) Tidus was dying and B) Yuna said "Thank you" there, not "I love you." The "I love you" was what the localization went with.

Before we get back into all that stuff about how official translations are always right, I'm going to ask you to stop and think how silly you're going to sound arguing that "arigatou" means "I love you." Anyone who's heard "Mr. Roboto" will be able to tell you that you're wrong.

So you honestly think Sony translated something incorrectly that is (according to you) pretty much impossible to translate incorrectly?

Maybe SE decided they wanted to change the line and told Sony to do so? You act as if these two companies don't communicate and that Sony does these translations without any input from SE, a company that might (shockingly) have employees that read and writhe both English and Japanese.

Considering "I love you" is a far more significant error than, say, "This guy are sick," I'd expect SE to have made a statement regarding this incorrect translation. But they haven't. I guess they are OK with millions and millions of English speakers thinking Yuna told Tidus she loved him.

And hell, even the hug without the "I love you" is more physical contact than Cloud and Tifa have after the HA Highwind scene. The bottom line is that despite the translation differences, the scene between Yuna and Tidus was designed to showcase their love for one another. Cloud and Tifa have no such scene after the Highwind scene. All you have between Cloud and Tifa to prove they are a couple after the HAHW scene is blushing.

Well, he said it. He said he doesn't care about any of the characters' romantic lives and that he even thinks it's weird when he's asked those questions.

How is that necessarily an LTD comment? We don't know what he meant by that because he didn't explain it.

The commentary could be anything from "Fated love! Fated reunion! They'll end up together in any world, any dimension!" to "Yeah, the only chance for them to be together is in a different reality altogether."

Does Nomura really strike you as a person who gives a crap if he pisses people off over fictional romance?

Well, he said it.

You assume not only that he's commenting on Clerith but that you know what the comment is.

I'm not saying Nomura specifically said the ending of Kingdom Hearts meant Clerith. However, Nomura does say a reasonable question to ponder is how the ending of Kingdom Hearts pertains to Cloud and Aerith's relationship in FFVII. Nomura also said this about Kingdom Hearts:

“Not just this time; “Kingdom Hearts” always have something like “a person’s heart” and “connection of hearts” as its theme. Like the strength of an invisible “heart” or what’s the most important thing to you, that’s what I was thinking while drawing the story.” Source: KHII interview

Nomura said every Kingdom Hearts game is about the connection of hearts, what’s most important to us, and that people are always connected even when apart. So, a game with these themes is the same game Nomura wants us to apply towards Cloud and Aerith’s relationship in FFVII? Hmmm... it’s not hard to read between *THOSE* lines.

Obviously Nomura is interested in the LTD if he is asking us to ponder what Cloud and Aerith's relationship is in FFVII based on what we see during the ending of Kingdom Hearts. Therefore, based on Nomura’s KH comment, he doesn't seem to be someone who doesn't care about the LTD. Rather, he seems to be someone who want's to remain ambiguous about the LTD. Thus, it makes more sense for Nomura to say he has, "no clue" if Cloud and Tifa are in a romantic relationship because that is an ambiguous answer. Nomura’s ambiguous “no clue” comment matches his ambiguous KH comment.

Regardless, your translation isn't fact. Your translation is simply a translation, just as the other translations are also translations. However, based on Nomura's KH comment, your translation doesn't make sense to me. So, I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree.

I have to again ask you how there's "things" that "didn't go well" if they never gave it a shot?

Things ultimately didn't go well with me and my wife. That's why we're getting a divorce. We had to be together for there to be things to not go well, though.

The extent of Cloud and Tifa’s romantic relationship after the HAHW scene is blushing. And to me, blushing is hardly evidence of a romantic relationship.

Again – I view Cloud and Tifa as more than friends but less than lovers during the beginning of CoT. Then, by the end of CoT, they are back to being childhood friends because, according to Nojima, things didn’t go well between them. Their romantic relationship is done at the end of CoT, which is why the AC relationship chart lists them as “childhood friends”. Then, after AC/C is over, Cloud and Tifa’s relationship status is again uncertain and unknown according to Nojima.

And your last paragraph is a word jumble that circles around to repeat itself without making an actual point.

"Cloud realized the same thing he had already realized"? Wow, what a compelling story, Square. I want my money back.

During the Highwind scene, Cloud and Tifa realize they can get through anything as long as they have each other. This can either be a romantic or platonic declaration because it is said in both HW scenes. And I agree with it. Cloud and Tifa share a common past and she is the key to unlocking his memories. Whether as a friend or romantic partner, Tifa needs to be by Cloud’s side.

Cloud’s “because I have you” is simply a reaffirmation of Cloud & Tifa's sentiments under the Highwind. Sentiments that occur in both versions of the Highwind scene. Cloud and Tifa are saying that they no longer have to go on alone because they have one another for support. THAT is why Cloud says "what I mean is different" because, while Tifa was always there for Cloud, it was only after the HWS (and defeating Sephiroth) that he knew she would always be by his side. It was like he was saying, "Yeah, I know I've always had you, but now I know that I no longer have to go on alone and that you will always support me no matter what."

So are we going to just ignore that he left a few days later, presumably without there even being an opportunity to take Tifa with him to the church first?

"Fine" is just, again, what the localization chose. He simply said "okay" ("un"; う&#12435 in Japanese.

Making all this fuss pointless.

"Once again, Tifa is inserting herself into Cloud’s two-person world with Aerith. And he clearly doesn’t like it. How do I know this? Because he moves out a few days after that. And where does he go? Aerith’s church… **without** telling Tifa."

You quoted someone else who had written that, prefacing it with "Here is a great post regarding the issue of Cloud not inviting Tifa to go with him to Aerith's Church. Please read it, because it basically says what I believe in more concise words than I could come up with."

I'm still sickened that you would condone that swill, much less call it a "great post."

Why did the translators use “Fine” as opposed to “Okay”? Probably because they realized Cloud was simply trying to avoid confrontation with Tifa, so “Fine” seemed more fitting than “Okay”.

Anyway – the fact that Cloud didn't take Tifa to Aerith's Church to begin with, in addition to the fact that Tifa had to ask to go (Cloud didn't invite her), means he didn't want her going with him. However, after Tifa asks to go, Cloud’s obviously not going to tell her no. That’s rude and he’s obviously trying to avoid confrontation with her.

But Cloud agreeing to let Tifa go with him the next time he goes to Aerith’s Church doesn’t change the fact that Cloud *NEVER ONCE* takes Tifa to Aerith's Church. Cloud only says Tifa can go after she asks. And the only reason Tifa asks is because Cloud didn't take her in the first place (ie: Cloud obviously didn’t want Tifa to go otherwise he would have taken her in the first place)

Again, can you not just acknowledge that you didn't use the right word for what you were trying to convey?

Nobody gives a shit what a dictionary says if it doesn't mesh with how people actually communicate. Communication isn't based on somebody getting all smug and pulling out a dictionary as proof of some obscure definition that no one actually uses.

Even when things are good between Cloud and Tifa, they still have communication problems. They’ve had *CONSTASNT* communication problems ever since they were kids. This has *NEVER* changed, even during good times between them. Therefore, I didn’t use the wrong word.

Cloud and Tifa never have and probably never will be good at communicating with each other, which is the very reason they aren’t a canon couple. Communication is key to any successful relationship.

Pretty sure that same official English translation has a massive error during a conversation with Aerith's mom about her death.

Also pretty sure that the word translated as "room" is exactly the word used to refer to the living space above businesses. Which is also not the place where Cloud was drinking at the time he was told to go there.

It's also not used just for bedrooms when referring to something other than those living spaces. It can mean literally any room in a dwelling, including a common room/living room.

What's certain, though, is that Tifa tells him to drink in the 部屋. Not in his 部屋. Just the 部屋.

They have never been referred to as his room. Only his office. I have shown you proof of this. It's twice referred to as his office and only his office.

The official English translation says "room". Why did they pick the word “room”?

Regardless, the four walls being called an office doesn’t preclude Cloud from sleeping in the bed that is found within those four walls. What is the point of that bed if not to tell us Cloud sleeps there? No seriously. What is the point of including that bed if not to tell us Cloud sleeps there? Did SE just include a random bed for the hell of it?

We assume Marlene sleeps in the bed found in her room once Denzel arrives (despite never seeing her actually sleep in it). So what was SE's intent for including a bed within the four walls that are Cloud's designated space? Hmmm…probably to tell us Cloud sleeps there. I know... it’s a huge leap in logic.

I'm still wondering where you think his clothes and other personal belongings sleep.

It is irrelevant where Cloud’s clothes are kept because we never see where his clothes are kept. Do we know if there is space for his clothes in TIfa's room? Do we see his clothes in Tifa's room? How many times does Cloud change outfits? And does where Cloud keeps his clothes have any relevance on his ability to sleep in the bed that is found within the four walls that are his designed space?

No random (irrelevant) factors, such as a lack of other furniture, or a lack of clothes, prevent Cloud from sleeping in that bed. NOTHING prevents Cloud from sleeping in that bed.

But, no, seriously, why do you keep harping on this "Marlene always slept with Tifa" nonsense when you know that only applies to when the group was homeless and for maybe a week at the rebuilt Seventh Heaven? We don't even know when they got beds.

Marlene always sleeping with Tifa is evidence that Cloud and Tifa were never a couple, even at the beginning of CoT.

If Marlene always slept with Tifa prior to Denzel’s arrival, that means Marlene slept with Tifa during the time frame Cloud and Tifa were supposedly a romantic couple. Hmmmm... so I guess Cloud and Tifa didn’t sleep in the same bed when they were supposedly a romantic couple.

Uh, actually that isn't reasonable to conclude. That's really stupid to conclude.
Dude, seriously, what the hell? Sometimes you sound like you have no idea what goes on in relationships.

Thanks for your opinion that it is a stupid conclusion.

Here is my response again if you actually want to respond to it:
Tifa knew they were having communication problems. Therefore, it is reasonable for her to conclude that Cloud didn’t love her because he wasn’t communicating the reasons for his behavior, behavior that is unacceptable for any romantic partner.

I notice how you already know the source because it's been mentioned before and I don't need to cite the source every fucking time.

My understanding is that it wasn’t the official script. So... where is your source that it is from the official/final script?

The reason I brought it up is because it is the only official comment we've ever received regarding the intention behind the apparition. We have no reason to believe it's really Aerith, much less that Cloud saw it or stopped.

What’s ironic is that Cloti's have no problem accepting that Sephiroth can take physical form using negative lifestream, but they have such a hard time accepting that Aerith can take physical form using positive lifestream.

Aerith touches Cloud during the Bahamut fight. She can solidify herself just like Sephiroth does. Therefore, when it says "vestiges" of Aerith appear, so what? Her hair blows in the wind and we know she can become far more than "vestiges". Just look at AC/C when she boosts Cloud while fighting Bahamut and when she physically appears in her Church.

Indeed.

Necessary?

You know this is a crap argument. I've pointed this out to you before. It's especially crap since Aerith in the flower field is, at best, a deleted scene at this point. It was removed from the final version of the film. It isn't there. Why do you keep bringing it up like it's actually in the canon version of the movie?

You may believe new releases supersede older releases, but I simply view them as equals – neither one supersedes the other. Until SE says something definitively, it is only your opinion that the newest version always supersedes the *ORIGINAL* version. To me, they are two different versions that are equally canon.

Maybe SE wanted to create a new video for the ending AC/C for fun? How do you know their intent was to completely ERASE what was shown during the credits in AC? It is impossible to know SE’s reasoning and intent for changing the credits. Therefore, I view both Calling and Safe & Sound as equals. Neither one supersedes the other.

Besides, what we are arguing about is Aerith’s ability to take physical form. We’ve already seen her take physical form on *MULTIPLE* occasions in AC/C. What would prevent her from taking physical form in the flower fields and after AC/C is over?

It proves that he stops somewhere in that vast expanse of flower fields, yes -- to ask Tifa to close the restaurant so they can have the next day off. It has nothing to do with Aerith, and, as I've pointed out countless times, even in the credits of the original film, Cloud keeps on driving around the bend after the Aerith apparition appears.

Cloud stops in a flower field that is explicitly stated to represent Aerith in Reminiscence. That is very symbolic and tells me that while on the road making deliveries, Cloud seeks out Aerith's presence.


----------------------------------------

No..... The situation with Aerith and the Turks not really trying to Capture her is not what makes Aerith a damsel in distress. What makes her a damsel in distress is the fact that she has no prior combatant training, unlike both Tifa and Yuffie. She's the token Non-Combatant of the group.

Something to note, however, is that Aerith carries a weapon with her. So despite no official combat training, I do believe Aerith would have attempted to fight off the Turks with her metal rod. Would she have been successful? Probably not. But that was the entire point of incorporating Cloud. SE wanted to use a common literary device by showing the protagonist (Cloud Strife) saving their love interest (Aerith Gainsborough) from danger. This is the same scenario we see mirrored in Final Fantasy Tactics. That's very significant.

Okay, first off, don't try and lecture me in literary devices. It makes you look like a dumbass. Secondly, if you wanna play this game, it doesn't help you. Because Cloud's ENTIRE ARC starts with wanting to save Tifa, and has the boy saving her at several key moments. So SE mirrored that element in Cloud saving Tifa- repeatedly- and had him FAIL at saving Aerith.

You avoided my point. Hero’s are commonly and routinely shown saving their love interests from the bad guys in films, TV, literature, etc. In both FFVII and FFT, SE decided to have the hero (Cloud Strife) protect his love interest (Aerith Gainsborough). Whether it was Cloud protecting Aerith in FFVII or FFT, the hero is shown protecting his love interest. You see this happen frequently in all forms of literature such as Spiderman (Mary Jane), Superman (Lois lane), Cloud Strife (Aerith Gainsborough), etc.

And what is the relevance of Tifa in this discussion? When did I say Cloud didn’t try to save Tifa, too? Cloud loves both Aerith and Tifa, which is why SE portrays Cloud saving both of them. It’s a pretty crazy coincidence, I know.

Cloud blames the pain he has in FFT that's described similarly to his pain in FF7 as being the result of Sephiroth messing with his mind.
And, again, Cloud has a Sharp Head Pain AND insist's he's real before his "I've lost something" line.
ONCE AGAIN FOR CONTEXT AND WITH FEELING:
Cloud: Uhnnn...My head...
Cloud: No...stop! I'm a member of SOLDIER! I was not...made!
Cloud: I've lost something...something very important.
Remember, Aerith buggers off to nowhere'sville at the start of the fight. The Head pain and identity crisis come right after. At the end of the battle, Cloud discusses losing what is important. His next line has him say "I've not been myself" and "Who... who am I now?"
And while Aerith's important to Cloud, she is not, "I AM LOST AND ALONE AND HAVE NO SELF WITHOUT YOU MY DARLING" to him. Cloud soldiered on having no doubts about his identity for a good week or so after her death. Then Sephiroth tore away his sense of self and he DID doubt that identity.
Of course, p120 of the Omega is Cait Sith's profile, is it not? You're forgetting the most important part of what it says about 'something dear.' Namely, that it could just be pure bullshit from the flamboyant catbot.

The way you provided the script makes it seem as though Cloud was complaining about his head immediately before saying he lost something important. However, Cloud is shown protecting Aerith in-between complaining about his head and saying he lost something important. IMO, SE is providing evidence that supports both of our conclusions.

Razma’s response to Cloud’s pain is to tell Cloud there is someone waiting for him back home. Why would Razma say there is someone waiting for Cloud in direct response to Cloud describing his pain? Because the someone waiting for Cloud can relieve Cloud of his pain.

Now, you say it’s Tifa waiting for Cloud because she is the key to unlocking Cloud’s memories. But right after Razma tells Cloud there is someone waiting for him, Cloud talks about finding the Promised Land. Therefore, when Razma tells Cloud there is someone waiting for him, it triggers Cloud into thinking about the Promised Land. Why does Razma’s line trigger Cloud into thinking about finding the Promised Land? Because Cloud knows Aerith is the person waiting for him in the Promised Land. See how all the ideas built off of each other and the dots connect?

If Tifa is the person waiting for Cloud at home, why is Cloud’s immediate response about finding the Promised Land? Obviously Cloud jumps to finding the Promised Land in response to being told there is someone waiting for him because he knows Aerith is waiting for him in the Promised Land.

Because Aerith's perspective is not Cloud's perspective and seriously do not bring up Koibito bullshit if you know what's good for you.

The “koibito” quote mentions Cloud being Aerith’s friend, yet we don’t assume it was a one-sided friendship, do we? So why would we assume it was a one-sided romance?

Because the man has a god damn functioning penis and both women are attractive. Sure he wavers. He's got two hot women right next to him- that he has NO goddamn clue are both attracted to him, to remind everyone of that- that he has his choice of pursuing. But even though he wavers, that does NOT mean he automatically loves both, or even either. There's a reason why I make a case for C/T independant of Aerith. Because this shit is not a zero sum game. It's not Catherine where he absolutely must make a choice between only these two women because the narrative demands it.

If Cloud wavers to Aerith, wouldn’t it make sense that he considers Aerith a koibito?

You mean the response to Marlene? Because, again, Cloud is a 21 year old heterosexual (or bi) man with a working penis who is naturally attracted to both Tifa and Aerith?

Cloud hoping Aerith likes him isn’t just about being a horny man because they develop a “special bond” that goes beyond physical attraction.

To better serve the needs of the plot. In neither goddamn date does Cloud ever remotely twig what's up and in the latter one, he misses the point entirely.

By Cloud going on two dates, he is showing romantic interest in Aerith. Dates are inherently romantic. And just because Cloud doesn’t know Aerith likes him doesn’t mean he can’t hold romantic feelings for her. I have been romantically interested in lots of people that I had no clue were also romantically interested in me.

Furthermore, Aerith’s date is on the FTOIL page – a page discussing protagonists and their *LOVE*. Therefore, Aerith’s date is evidence of a protagonists *LOVE* according to the FTOIL page. Not only is Aerith’s date shown on the FTOIL page, but we know it is the canon date from other sources (SE says a *PROMISED* date takes place // SE says Aerith’s date is the *NORMAL* outcome // Aerith *REMEMBERS* her date with Cloud)

And even if you don’t think Aerith’s date is being specifically represented on the FTOIL page (despite it being canon and despite it being pictured); the date on the FTOIL page can only be referring to Aerith or Tifa's date because the love triangle, according to Aerith’s profile, is between herself, Cloud, and Tifa. Therefore, only Aerith and Tifa’s dates can be seen as love between the protagonist and his love interest.

In other words, even if you think Tifa’s date is also represented on the FTOIL page, it just means the date can be used as evidence of love between Cloud x Aerith *AND* Cloud x Tifa. However, Aerith’s date is canon and Aerith’s date is pictured.

Bottom line: the mere fact that the date is on the FTOIL page means it can be used as evidence of a protagonists love. Therefore, Cloud and Aerith’s date is evidence of Cloud’s love for Aerith by being represented on the FTOIL page.

Oh, wow. You've never heard of a red herring?
Have you never read a mystery novel?
The point of the "marrigage prediction" by CAIT SITH- he of the stated and confirmed unreliability- is to set the player up to make Aerith's death even more brutal, which is also why Cait Sith himself nobly sacrifices himself only to come back immediately.
You're missing the narrative forest for the LTD trees.

The argument about Cait Sith’s prediction should not revolve around how reliable he is. The argument should revolved around SE’s intent for including this wedding prediction in the game.

SE could have had Aerith ask Cait Sith about her future and Cait Sith could have said, “You will have a bright future full of many happy times!” — this would have set the player up to get their heart broken when she was killed by Sephiroth. Instead, they specifically decided to include a prediction about Aerith’s romantic future with Cloud. It was a romantic prediction about her future with Cloud, not just a generic prediction about her future. So given the context of the game and how things were progressing between Cloud and Aerith, it is obvious why SE included this wedding prediction — so the gamer would have the idea in their head that Cloud and Aerith had the possibility of sharing a romantic future together, which would then be destroyed by the hands of the evil Sephiroth. A generic prediction about Aerith’s future would not have been nearly as meaningful or impactful to the gamer, which is why they specifically included a prediction about Aerith’s romantic future with Cloud.

The romance that was clearly developing between Cloud and Aerith, in addition to a prediction about a their romantic future together, makes her death all the more sad. SE killed off a romantic love interest to Cloud because it would be more impactful to the gamer. If SE had killed Barret, I can guarantee you that it would not have been as memorable or as impactful to the gamer. One of the biggest reasons Aerith’s death is so sad is because she wasn’t just a friend to Cloud. Aerith had a possible romantic future with Cloud, which is exactly what SE wanted us to think, so that when they killed her, it was that much more painful and heartbreaking for those of us playing the game.

Luckily, Cloud and Aerith’s love transcends traditional barriers and continues in the spiritual world. Furthermore, SE refers to this prediction as a wedding prediction. Why would they refer to it as a wedding prediction if it was not meant to highlight the romantic connection Cloud and Aerith have in the game?

The only way for SE to say that this prediction became “more painful” after Aerith’s death is if they had the possibility, based on mutual romance, to get married. If they didn’t have the possibility to get married, why would a marriage prediction become more painful after her death? Obviously Cloud and Aerith had the mutual feelings required for a marriage otherwise this prediction wouldn’t become more painful after her death. In other words, if a marriage wasn’t possible while Aerith was alive, there’s no way for a marriage prediction to become more painful after she dies.

Wait wait wait. Physically attracted to? Is this referencing the part where he takes notice of her eyes? Because if so, you're twisting words again.

Cloud says her eyes were impressive and that her smile was a good purchase. Cloud thinks Aerith is physically attractive.

Oh, that's stupidly easy. Aerith has no trouble just opening up and talking to Cloud, which Tifa herself has difficulties doing. She's jealous because Aerith can make a rapport with Cloud- and nearly anyone really- which makes Tifa feel jealous. But Tifa's jealousy is not evidence of Cloud's romantic leanings, either in or out of universe.
If they are, then Aerith's jealousy of Tifa is likewise evidence.

You provided a reason for Tifa’s jealously in FFVII. But why is she jealous in AC? Remember, Tifa's complicated feelings toward Aerith as a woman (who had built up a “special bond” with Cloud that was different than her bond with Cloud) *CONTINUES* in AC. Why is Tifa jealous of a dead woman?

Long form quote of that, please. You have too much of a history of mangling words to trust that you got it right.

You don't know of this quote? I'll try to locate it for you.

MARKETING!

Why would SE market Cloud and Aerith as a romantic couple if they didn’t believe there was evidence of them being a romantic couple?

You mean the one where the characters who have pretty much nothing in common with Cloud and Aerith have a short scene where the Soldier and Flower girl thing is the butt of a joke?
Next you'll be bringing up monkeys.

What do you mean they don’t have anything in common with Cloud and Aerith?

The Flower Girl says Knight VII isn’t exactly Mr. Personality. That’s a direct reference to Cloud in FFVII.

SE says Aerith is, “Young, *beautiful* and somewhat mysterious...” – in FFIX, Knight VII says the Flower Girl is *beautiful*.

What are you talking about!?!?!?

Because he doesn't. Ramza is literally speaking optimistic platitudes with no basis in rational evidence. He's trying to cheer Cloud up. There's no deeper meaning to it than that. Sometimes, a line is just what someone would say to someone in a given situation, rather than serving some deeper meaning because characters are supposed to be reasonably empathetic people, not plot servitor robots.

That’s your assumption.

TIFA. TIFA IS WAITING FOR CLOUD.
And that is AGAIN assuming the line is meant to be taken as both literal and prescient. It is far far likelier it is simply meant as a figure of speech, the same way "My dinner is waiting for me when I get home" is meant

Where is your proof that Tifa is the one waiting for Cloud?

Cloud says he is trying to find the Promised Land, and the only person he has associated with being directly in the Promised Land is Aerith. Therefore, Aerith is the one waiting for Cloud back home in the Promised Land. Just connecting the dots.

Two: I do have good evidence that Cloud is from a specific point in his game, because of the things he says. And yes, the FFT crew has some knowledge of FF7. And therein lies my point. Either the FFT crew gives enough of a shit in their cameo to make sure it does narratively reference to FF7, they'll give enough of a shit to try and make sure their Cloud isn't self-contradictory. But that's assuming they give that much of a shit, which, even though this is the crew who wrote FFT, is still a silly assumption.

If they have knowledge of FFVII, then they obviously know Cloud would be seeking to fight Sephiroth in the Northern Crater (not the Promised Land), and they also know Cloud only associates one person with being in the Promised Land (Aerith).

What I am saying is that if they actually care enough about FF7, which is possible, they will care enough to present a Cloud that is not a self-contradictory blob of Cloud split across various periods in time.

I think they were just trying to show as many memorable things as possible: Cloud having memory/identity issues, Cloud’s hatred for Sephiroth, Cloud losing Aerith, etc. You know, the most memorable things about Cloud in FFVII. I don’t think they were concerned with, “Cloud is from this SPECIFIC moment in FFVII, so we MUST make sure all of his lines are in sync with the EXACT moment we are taking Cloud from”

Seems far more likely they are just incorporating numerous memorable aspects of Cloud – his memory issues, Sephiroth, Aerith, etc.

And I am saying that if they are going to care that much, they are probably going to ask themselves when in FF7 they CAN borrow Cloud from. FFT is so narratively focused that it seems very unlikely for them to reference the end of someone else's game. It's actually a really dick move on their part if they did.
But would not have known about. FF7 and FFT came out nearly at the same time. You don't reference the ending of a contemporary game when people are very likely not to have played it.
I mean, for fuck's sake, it took nearly eight years for people to stop bitching when people openly said Aerith died. You think the Ivalice crew is gonna spoil their co-worker's ending?

This is all your assumption. You are simply trying to write off my point by assuming the creators wouldn’t want to, “spoil the ending of FFVII”.

What’s funny is that in your previous post you said the creators probably didn’t know about the ending of FFVII (ie: when Cloud said he could find Aerith in the Promised Land). And now you’re spouting off another unverifiable belief that they probably wouldn’t want to ruin the ending of FFVII.

How many unverifiable scenarios are you going to come up with until you just address my point? The only person Cloud associates *IN* the Promised Land is Aerith. Cloud thinks Sephiroth is *SEARCHING* for the Promised Land, but he believes Aerith is *IN* the Promised land.

Plus, Cloud never considers the Northern Crater the Promised Land. Therefore, Cloud wouldn’t be searching for the Promised Land to fight Sephiroth, he would be searching for to the Northern Crater to fight Sephiroth.

It's actually very possible. The games were in development concurrently, and there was less than six months between their release. The FFT crew was very likely deep into their crunch and unable to play FF7 all the way to the end.

Assumption.

And do you really think those working on FFT didn’t collaborate/talk to those who created FFVII?

No, you sophistic twit, I do not belive Cloud wasn't referring to Aerith. I said he DIDN'T SAY AERITH. This is a factual statement and was brought up to make a point. A point I now repeat for the hard of reading.

What is the point of saying Cloud doesn’t specifically say Aerith when we all know he’s talking about Aerith?

"And that's ignoring the fact that Cloud's statement was largely made with the context of 'Hey, even if we're about to die, we can still meet our old friends again, buck up Tifa."
You know, the part that the Ultimania says he and Tifa were actually talking about?

I don’t think Cloud and Tifa thought they were going to die until it seemed Holy wouldn’t be able to stop meteor. They were on the airship when they realized that. Therefore, hope wasn’t lost when Cloud and Tifa were talking about meeting Aerith. Hope was lost on the airship.

"And 3. In Japanese, he never does say 'I' and the UO that discusses it says he's Telling Tifa, so 'we' is probably the better pronoun to use before can."
So, yeah, stop this, or I'll have to conclude you're being deliberately dishonest.

It is your opinion that “we” is the better pronoun to use. The two official translations back up my opinion up.

Anyway –

We know that everyone returns to the lifestream, but not everyone returns to specific Promised Land's. A Promised Land is a feeling, not a place. This is why Cloud wasn’t including or excluding Tifa -- she will return to the lifestream, but she won't be returning to Cloud and Aerith’s Promised Land that is *WITHIN* the lifestream.

The Northern Crater, which is also called the promised land, yes.

Cloud never calls the Northern Crater the Promised Land. Sephiroth does but Cloud doesn’t. The only person Cloud associates with being *IN* the Promised Land is Aerith.

So, in response to "There is an entire method of using this idiom that does not require a deliberate act of waiting," you reassert your claim that it must refer to someone deliberately waiting.

I thought you said Tifa was waiting for Cloud, though? Now you’re saying it’s an idiom that doesn’t require a deliberate act of waiting?

Yes. And even if they did, they wouldn't put something about the ending to a newly released game into a game released the very same year.

It is your assumption that they wouldn’t put something about the ending of a newly released game in a game released the same year. FFT was released after FFVII, so I don’t think they gave a rats ass about incorporating the ending of FFVII in FFT.

Regardless, your argument is completely unverifiable and is only being made to avoid my point: the only person Cloud associates being *IN* the Promised Land is Aerith. So when Cloud says he is searching for the Promsied Land, he is obviously trying to find the someone who is waiting for him back home (Aerith).

Because the only "Promised Land" Cloud knows of is Sephiroth's. He has not yet had any revelation as to the concept of the promised land as Afterlife or promised land as place where happiness is found.

Cloud believes Sephiroth is searching for the Promsied Land, but he doesn’t ever believe Sephiroth is *IN* the Promised Land. Cloud only ever believes one person is in the Promised Land – Aerith.

Except no, because she's dead. And the official translation- and remember, you LOVE official translations- refers to PEOPLE. Tres made a point of reminding you about your insistence on official translations. Why have you suddenly changed your tone on this one?

OK – so Aerith is waiting for Cloud in the Promised Land and Cloud’s friends are waiting for him on...the Highwind?

Cloud tells Aerith to run away. Ramza protects Cloud because Cloud is level 1. Cloud has a sudden sharp head pain and expresses factually incorrect statements about himself and states that he hasn't been himself. Ramza tells Cloud there is either some one or people waiting for him back home.
But the person waiting for Cloud- again, ASSUMING it must be an explicitly literal and prescient statement- is NOT stated to be in the Promised land, and the Promised land is not Cloud's home.

I’ve already explained this...

Razma’s response to Cloud’s pain is to tell Cloud there is someone waiting for him back home. Why would Razma say there is someone waiting for Cloud in direct response to Cloud describing his pain? Because the someone waiting for Cloud back home can relieve Cloud of his pain.

Now, you say it’s Tifa waiting for Cloud because she is the key to unlocking Cloud’s memories. But right after Razma tells Cloud there is someone waiting for him back home, Cloud talks about finding the Promised Land. Therefore, Razma telling Cloud about someone waiting for him triggers Cloud into thinking about the Promised Land. Why does Razma’s line trigger Cloud into thinking about finding the Promised Land? Because Cloud knows Aerith is the person waiting for him in the Promised Land. See how all the ideas built off of each other and the dots connect?

If Tifa is the person waiting for Cloud at home, why is Cloud’s immediate response about finding the Promised Land? Obviously Cloud jumps to finding the Promised Land in response to being told there is someone waiting for him because he knows Aerith is waiting for him in the Promised Land – the important thing Cloud lost.

Aerith's church, WITH his family and friends inside it is his promised land. It is not his promised land before then.

I’ve already responded to this...

That particular passage is about how Cloud isn't meat to join Aerith and Zack in the lifestream yet. Both Zack and Aerith *SPECIFICALLY* and *DIRECTLY* tell Cloud he isn't meant to join them in the lifestream yet. Therefore, Cloud realizes he is meant to live with his “family and friends” *UNTIL* he is meant to return to the lifestream. That is what the passage says.

Once Cloud finally belongs in the lifestream, he will reunite with Aerith in the Promised Land Aerith refers to in MoT and the Promised Land Cloud refers to at the end of FFVII. In the meantime, however, Cloud can find Aerith in her Church, which is also stated to be his Promised Land.

Remember...according to Aerith, ones Promised Land is a *FEELING* one gets. When Cloud saw Aerith reaching down to him at the end of FFVII, Cloud *FELT* his Promised Land. He says so. Then, in AC, Cloud can also find Aerith in her Church. Her Church is another place where Cloud has *FELT* his Promised Land.

To determine what causes Cloud to *FEEL* his Promised Land, his statement at the end of FFVII and SE’s statement about Cloud’s Promised Land can’t contradict each other. What is the one similarity between Cloud’s statement at the end of FFVII and SE’s statement about Cloud’s Promised Land in AC? Finding Aerith.

Whether it's Aerith's Church or the lifestream, it is wherever Cloud can find Aerith that is stated to be Cloud’s Promised Land. Both Cloud and SE say this.

Cloud’s Promised Land obviously can’t be his friends and family because Cloud has already stated he has a Promised Land in the lifestream with Aerith. Once Cloud is done living with his friends and family, and is finally meant to join the lifestream, he will return the Promised Land Aerith speaks of in MoT and Cloud speaks of at the end of FFVII. In other words, both times Cloud got the feeling that is required for a Promised Land have been in Aerith’s presence. SHE is the common denominator. SHE is the only way both statements regarding Cloud’s Promised Land don’t contradict each other.

The quote at the end of FF7 never says it's Cloud's promised land. Just "the promised land," as in the Cetra concept of reuniting with the planet, AKA the afterlife.

Aerith is in Cloud's Promised Land by his own admission. Thus, being with Aerith is (at least part) of Cloud's Promised Land.

What's REALLY funny is that you consistently ignore the very salient point about how the phrase "Is waiting for you" doesn't require anyone to actually be expecting or anticipating you, nor does it even require the possibility of sentience (My bed is waiting for me at home).

Then why do you say Tifa is waiting for Cloud if waiting doesn’t actually mean someone is waiting?

What's extra special funny is that you say in the middle of your post that we're both right, and then end your post insisting that you were right all along.

According to SE we are both right. I’m simply explaining my position.

You keep doing that. It's why no one believes you when you say you think Cloud loved both women.

Loving two people doesn’t mean you love them equally.

 

[BlankBeat]

Also -- I felt the need to address Ryu's points, but I don't like how he spoke to me. And I don't believe someone who has already been banned from this thread should be the moderator of this thread, especially since he is repeating the very behavior that got him banned in the first place.

Anyway -- with the way I was spoken to by Ryu, that might be my last post for a long time (which I'm sure some people are happy to hear)

 

[Cookie Monster]

Broseph Beat, make your reports, and let us sort it out.

Enough of the ridiculous pseudomodding.

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

Loving two people doesn’t mean you love them equally.

I'm sorry but no. Please do not go there.

You can't put a measure on all that Cloud and Tifa (nor Cloud and Aerith for that matter) have been through together.

 

[Strangelove]

couple of pages back the promised land was an literal, actual place (it was aerith's church because that book said 'the place cloud woke up') but now it's a feeling? (but not the 'engulfed in celebration' bit that isn't about aerith because what kind of shit isn't about aerith? unimportant shit, that's what)

this thread, man

'you just feel it (= you sense/intuitively know that this is the place)' isn't really the same as 'it's an actual feeling'

and square had tifa say 'let's go to the promised land' when she isn't even going to one? man, this game is cold

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Cold, confusing, and kinda dumb... much like this thread

 

[Tetsujin]

I don't own a copy of the Advent Children DVD. Can someone tell me how we know the film on the DVD is specifically from the Venice Film Festival?

Because it says "Venice Film Festival".

 

[Strangelove]

Yeah, it's listed as the Venice version on the menu, on the back of the box, in multiple books (the 10th Anniversary Ultimania specifically says that you can watch the Venice footage on the bonus DVD). Why would they make another, incomplete version of the film they finished just to put as a bonus on the DVD? There's a bunch of references to it being what they showed in Venice. There's only one for that footage being something different with all that 'you think you can find her this way, the way you die could be a good way' stuff.

The Japanese script was a replica of the recording script used by the actors, I don't know if the English script is what was used for the voice recording but it's a translation of the Japanese recording script. I doubt they would include an 'unofficial' script (especially with the expensive Advent Pieces boxset), and having a few differences between final script and finished film isn't that unusual with films.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I don't own a copy of the Advent Children DVD. Can someone tell me how we know the film on the DVD is specifically from the Venice Film Festival?

As Tets and hito mentioned, the DVD identifies the special feature as "Venice Film Festival Footage."

This isn't news, dude. It's been common knowledge for nine years.

I'm simply making the point that the homage in AC makes it clear that the hand reach scene is about Cloud reuniting with Aerith and has nothing to do with Tifa.

Okay? Unlike your arguments about Aerith, no one here is insistent that everything is about Tifa.

The homage in AC sheds light on the intent of the hand reach scene in FFVII.

What precisely is that intent supposed to be?

Yes, it is my opinion that Tifa's expression was a sad expression. Obviously you won't agree with my opinion, but body language isn't something to be ignored.

Yes, smiling = clearly and unequivocally a sad expression:

"Body language isn't something to be ignored."

Is this the "Is Lightning happy?" thing all over again?

Don't Cloti's obsess about Cloud's smile (or lack-thereof) at the end of AC/C?

No?

And yes, everyone returns to the lifestream. But not everyone returns to specific Promised Land’s.

Not everyone gets one in the first place.

"Return to" is improper phrasing again, by the way, as it implies everyone leaves a personal Promised Land and goes back to it later. That's the Lifestream you're thinking of -- which, for some, is the Promised Land, but not all.

Cloud isn't including Tifa in his Promised Land, but he obviously can't stop Tifa from returning to the lifestream (which is where Cloud's Promised Land with Aerith is)

Tifa going back to the lifestream with Cloud =/= Tifa going to Cloud and Aerith’s Promised Land that is within the lifestream

You do get that, even if reunited in the Lifestream, Cloud and Aerith's spirits aren't going to be physically occupying a separate realm from the rest of the Lifestream, right?

Aerith is in Cloud's Promised Land by his own admission. Thus, being with Aerith is (at least part) of Cloud's Promised Land.

"Part of." Thank you.

Of course you go on to ignore your own statement later in this post.

1. Where is your proof Cloud was miserable during the moment he re-united with Aerith on his way to the Ancients' city? I know there's proof of him being miserable before and possibly after, but where is your proof that Cloud was miserable in that very moment? I'd love to see your evidence of this.

I thought "body language isn't something to be ignored"?

Also, there's, you know, the whole "Why have you come?"/"I want to be forgiven" thing.

So, yes, being reunited with Aerith is not what it's all about.

1. The voices in the paragraph aren't 'talking' to Aerith, she's merely sensing them nearby. The thing that 'speaks' to Aerith is the planet, similar to how the planet spoke to Cloud at the end of FFVII. In other words, Aerith is communicating with the planet *NOT* the voices. So your theory that the "our" is in reference to the voices is inaccurate because Aerith isn’t talking to the voices, she’s talking to the planet (something she has done ever since she was a little girl)

I was including the planet as one of the voices, but, either way you want to split hairs about it, she was talking to and being talked to by multiple sources there. Also, your attempt at establishing a meaningful difference between "talking" and "sensing" when the story explicitly states "Here, words and thoughts were the same" is laughably absurd.

For people who actually care about facts, here's why it's most simple to conclude that the "our" Aerith is referencing is herself and the other souls in the Lifestream:

-"All around her was the existence of countless number of consciousnesses. There were lots of voices and an abundance of memories."

-“'I wonder… If it’s because I’m a Cetra?'

The words came out as a murmur from Aerith. Here, words and thoughts were the same. As an entity of consciousness, her thoughts and feelings were only expressed as waves she emitted. Similarly, the huge number of memories in the Lifestream also reached her as all sorts of waves. All around her she heard whispers of how if you didn’t retain a strong ego, you would soon no longer know which consciousness belonged to you."

-"Just when the thought crossed her mind, she felt a little commotion from the planet. It wasn’t from the individual consciousnesses but the planet as a whole as if to confirm what she was thinking.

'…I see. I wonder what it is.'

Her question was answered with silence. The planet too had yet to know what it was.

She smiled like the flowers that she used to sell in the slums. In the gentle fluorescent light, the smile that was loved by everyone bloomed sweetly.

'It’s OK. There are still people I don’t want to be separated from. I can’t sleep yet. Until that time comes, I’ll wander around here for a while. I’ll spend my time here in the planet… In our Promised Land…'”

To summarize:
She's thinking/talking out loud (the same thing here). There are voices talking to her. She thinks/says something. The planet responds. She asks a follow-up question. The planet doesn't respond, because it's unsure. She says "It's okay" and then the "our Promised Land" bit.

This couldn't be more straightforward.

Also, the point is made in FFVII that, for a Cetra, the Lifestream is the Promised Land. There is plenty of self-evident meaning for the "our" that you are overlooking here.

This passage has Aerith talking about herself and Cloud. Aerith mentions meeting Cloud and what would happen if they met. In addition, Aerith says she is in "OUR" Promised Land immediately before the narrative voice says,

"Wishing she could send away her thoughts, Aerith looked up at the sky… She looked beyond the shell of the Planet above her head. The particles of Mako that floated and shouted around looked like the night sky to her. She looked up into the sky like the time she sat beside Cloud around kindling fire in Cosmo Canyon."

Therefore, while in this Promised Land, Aerith is reminded of a romantic moment between herself and Cloud in Cosmo Canyon. Narratively, it makes sense that "our" Promised Land is in reference to Cloud and Aerith's Promised Land, the same Promised Land Cloud is referring to at the end of FFVII.

So, you think something she said before she looked up and was reminded of that time with Cloud is supposed to be a narrative cue that what she said before she was reminded is in reference to a memory that was jogged after?

That makes sense to you? More sense than that she's talking to the planet/the voices around her that she had just been communicating with? Really now?

There is a bigger theme I'm getting at.
--Dyne had guilt due to his wife's death.
--Cloud had guilt due to Aerith’s death.

--Aerith removed Dyne’s guilt.
--Aerith removed Cloud’s guilt.

You really need to pay attention to more than Aerith. She's a main character, but everything is not about her. You miss out on a lot of good stuff when you pay no attention because it lacks Aerith.

No, Dyne does not have guilt due to his wife's death. He had nothing to do with that. He feels guilt over the people he murdered. He says as much himself:

"'I reek of the blood of those I killed with my bare hands right to the very depths of my soul. Can’t you see? They’ve all been clinging onto me all this time. If I go back at all, I’ll be dragged back by them.'"

And since Aerith is all that matters to you, she says so too:

"'The blood bound to you is something that your feeling of guilt is making. The lives you took away returned to the Lifestream long ago. You can’t forget about what you’ve done but, there is no reason why you can’t start over. I guarantee it.'"

--After Dyne’s guilt was removed, he reunited with his love, Eleanor, in the lifestream.
--Zack and Aerith tell Cloud he doesn’t belong in the lifestream yet, but we already know Cloud and Aerith have a Promised Land within the lifestream (Cloud says so and Aerith says so). So, once Cloud is ready to go to the lifestream, he will be reunited with Aerith in the lifestream the same way Dyne was reunited with his wife, Eleanor.

To me, that is a rather prefect parallel if you don’t get bogged down with, “Well Cloud isn’t a homicidal maniac!” (as if that has any relevance to the parallel’s I’m pointing out)

That simple, straightforward event in your first bullet point is a perfect parallel for that convoluted, monstrous one in your second?

Okay then.

Let me give you an example. Maybe that will convey my beliefs better.

Rose in Titanic moved on from Jack. She married some random guy and started a family with him. But in the story, Rose says that Jack touched her in a way no man had done before or since, and that she would never forget him. Then, when Rose dies, she returns to Jack at the end of the film. I don't think this is a very hard concept to grasp…it's shown in one of the most famous films of all-time.

In other words, you can romantically love two people but you can obviously love one person more. As a Clerith, I believe Cloud loved Aerith more than Tifa. So... I’m not sure why you act so surprised when I make arguments that build up Cloud x Aerith.

Building up CloudxAerith is one thing, but you spend most of your time belittling Tifa, as if that somehow bolsters CxA. Does it never strike you as odd that The Clotis you despise so much never need to do that to Aerith?

Hell, even believing Cloud loves Aerith more is one thing, but you act like Aerith is literally all that matters to Cloud. That Tifa is something (emphasis on "thing," really, because you hardly act like she's supposed to be a person he cares about) he puts up with since Aerith isn't there.

Even though he could just, you know, fucking kill himself if he wanted to be in the Lifestream with Aerith so badly.

So, why doesn't he do that? I'd really like to hear your answer. Especially once he got geostigma, if all he wanted was to be with Aerith -- if he wasn't actually interested in staying alive with Tifa and the kids -- why didn't he just kill himself?

You have never given an explanation for this. If you do reply again, I want one.

The fatal flaw of your argument is how can Cloud’s friends and family be his Promised Land when Cloud has already spoken of a Promised Land with Aerith in the lifestream? Please answer that.

And here we go with you contradicting your own statement that "being with Aerith is (at least part of) Cloud's Promised Land."

And also contradicting your very next sentence:

To summarize...Promised Land's are a feeling that can happen anywhere.

Because if Aerith blames Cloud for her death, a love between them is futile. Cloud must know that Aerith doesn't blame him in order for their relationship to go forward.

And please, don’t ignore this second part:

Dyne had to be removed of his guilt before he could be reunited with his wife, Eleanor, in the lifestream. Same logic applies to Cloud and Aerith. Cloud needs to have his guilt removed before anything else can transpire between himself and Aerith. Therefore, Cloud’s guilt is obviously the most pressing issue when he and Aerith are back-to-back in the flower field. Cloud’s guilt must be removed first before a love between him and Aerith can exist – same as what happened with Dyne and his wife, Eleanor.

Guilt first. Love second.

Then you concede that your insistence upon Cloud being reunited with Aerith as the totality of his Promised Land is hogwash. Further, you concede that the point I've been making from the beginning (that getting freed of his guilt was paramount to Cloud being happy) is true.

For all your insistence that you take the most simple interpretation of things, you're adding a whole secondary layer to Cloud's story that is far from parsimonious and openly contradicts the first layer.

What we unequivocally know:
Cloud was happy with his life after FFVII -> He didn't think he was worthy of that happiness because he felt guilt over Zack and Aerith's deaths, and also felt he was unable to protect the people close to him -> He became depressed -> He wanted Aerith's forgiveness, as she was the symbol of his failures

You've gone in and turned it into the following:
Cloud was unhappy with his life after FFVII*1 -> He missed Aerith consummately, longed to be with her again, felt guilt over her death and didn't think he was worthy of ... something*2 -> He became depressed -> He wanted Aerith's forgiveness so he could be with her again ... but he never just went ahead and killed himself to speed up the process

*1: Directly contradicts multiple official statements
*2: It's not entirely clear what he thinks himself unworthy of in your version of events

Of course Cloud would feel guilty for letting someone else die. I'm specifically explaining why he felt guilty for letting Aerith and Zack die.

But I do think there are different degrees of guilt. Would you feel as guilty if you let a random person die as opposed to someone you loved romantically or platonically? Probably not.

According to your insistence on there being a parallel between Cloud and Dyne, yes. Dyne murdered people he didn't know. Cloud felt he had caused the deaths of people he did. Make up your mind.

As for what I personally think? I don't know how I would feel. I hope I don't have to weigh the two against one another at any point. It probably depends on the person.

The burden of proof is on you to show me where it is even suggested that Barret took Marlene away from Seventh Heaven. We already know Barret *LEFT* Marlene at Seventh Heaven for four years. It only makes sense that Barret would return to the place he left her.

Dude, I'm not trying to prove anything more than that we don't have enough information. I could as easily say "The burden of proof is on you to show me where it is even suggested that Barret's work is done," but I'm not going to do that to you because a) it's a dishonest debate tactic and b) I know we have no way of knowing.

And I don’t think it is a coincidence that SE shows Cloud, Tifa, and Barret traveling together. You know, the three people that rebuilt Seventh Heaven and formed a family together.

Interesting that you would claim in your very next paragraph that "Cloud's profile says he is living with only Tifa," yet when Tifa's profile says she and Cloud were forming a family, you don't take that to mean only Tifa and Cloud were forming the family.

You obviously missed my point. Cloud’s profile says he is living with only Tifa. Yet, Denzel’s profile says he is living with Cloud *AND* Tifa. Therefore, Cloud’s profile only mentioning Tifa is misleading and confusing. That was my point.

The word "only" is not there. You're making things up again. Stop it. Seriously. Stop it.

You're either being dishonest or have poor reading comprehension. This is not a flame or insult. It's a statement of fact, because you are reading that incorrectly.

My girlfriend is living with her dad and brother. If I say she is living with her dad, that does not imply she is living only with her dad. It's just a statement that she is living with her dad. It doesn't exclude the possibility of someone else also living with them.

Again, you're being dishonest or just have a faulty grasp of English (to say nothing of your grasp of Japanese). Is it not your first language?

This is why our debates never go anywhere. You want me to accept your *OPINION* that my argument is stupid. As if your opinion carries more weight than mine.

It does, but not because it belongs to me. It carries more weight because the reasoning behind yours is illogical.

You insist that these charts are all about displaying a relationship status, and they aren't. Many of the descriptions plainly don't fit the notion of a relationship status.

The very conceit of your reasoning process that leads to your opinion is faulty. So, yes, it's a stupid argument.

Most of the time SE includes *ONE* relationship chart. But in this instance, SE included two charts: one for FFVII and one for AC.

There are actually many more than that.

Therefore, we are able to compare and contrast the two charts and see if any changes are made between the two time periods. Cloud and Tifa are listed as "childhood friends" in both charts. No evolution in their relationship is revealed between the two charts. This would have been the perfect opportunity to show Cloud and Tifa evolving from "childhood friends" to "lovers"; but SE used the exact same description for both the FFVII and AC charts.

Or the stories themselves would be the perfect opportunity, but nevermind looking at those.

This proves their official relationship status doesn’t change. In other words, Cloud and Tifa are not officially romantic partners, they are officially childhood friends. *THAT* is the point I'm making.

So I guess by the time of DC they don't have any kind of relationship at all since the chart for that game doesn't even bother to ascribe them a description?

And I guess Vaan and Penelo aren't officially romantic partners? There's no relationship chart identifying them as anything other than "relationship like siblings."

Again, the conceit of your reasoning process is faulty. It's, therefore, a faulty argument. Let it go.

In what other instances are two charts provided and a couple given the *SAME* description in *BOTH* charts, despite each chart referring to a *DIFFERENT* time period? Please answer that question.

In how many other instances are there titles with charts spanning different time periods? Most FFs don't have sequels.

To answer your question, though, Serah and Snow are "koibitos" in charts for both XIII and XIII-2. You'd think they could have at least gone to "engaged" at some point since they were even before the first game.

Again, the chart thing is a faulty basis for drawing conclusions. Are we supposed to conclude that Snow and Serah aren't still engaged in XIII-2?

So you honestly think Sony translated something incorrectly that is (according to you) pretty much impossible to translate incorrectly?

FFX wasn't translated by Sony. It was translated by Alexander O. Smith, a well-known and respected video game translator.

Maybe SE decided they wanted to change the line and told Sony to do so?

Clearly you're not paying attention to everyone's posts in this thread since hito has already posted Smith's explanation for changing the line. He felt it would resonate more for English-speaking audiences.

Maybe SE decided they wanted to change the line and told Sony to do so? You act as if these two companies don't communicate and that Sony does these translations without any input from SE, a company that might (shockingly) have employees that read and writhe both English and Japanese.

Considering that Yoshinori Kitase (the director of FFVII, and its current steward) has said he knows next to nothing about the localization process, yeah, I'm going to say that these companies don't usually communicate about stuff like that.

Considering "I love you" is a far more significant error than, say, "This guy are sick," I'd expect SE to have made a statement regarding this incorrect translation. But they haven't. I guess they are OK with millions and millions of English speakers thinking Yuna told Tidus she loved him.

When has SE ever issued a statement about a translation error? They don't do that, and you know it. Your press release mentality -- whether genuine or postured -- needs to go away. That's not how the world works. Shareholders don't give a fuck.

And hell, even the hug without the "I love you" is more physical contact than Cloud and Tifa have after the HA Highwind scene.

That we are shown. We aren't shown the totality of the two years between FFVII and Advent, are we?

The bottom line is that despite the translation differences, the scene between Yuna and Tidus was designed to showcase their love for one another.

There's a reasonable statement.

I'm not saying Nomura specifically said the ending of Kingdom Hearts meant Clerith. However, Nomura does say a reasonable question to ponder is how the ending of Kingdom Hearts pertains to Cloud and Aerith's relationship in FFVII. Nomura also said this about Kingdom Hearts:

“Not just this time; “Kingdom Hearts” always have something like “a person’s heart” and “connection of hearts” as its theme. Like the strength of an invisible “heart” or what’s the most important thing to you, that’s what I was thinking while drawing the story.” Source: KHII interview

Nomura said every Kingdom Hearts game is about the connection of hearts, what’s most important to us, and that people are always connected even when apart. So, a game with these themes is the same game Nomura wants us to apply towards Cloud and Aerith’s relationship in FFVII? Hmmm... it’s not hard to read between *THOSE* lines.

Obviously Nomura is interested in the LTD if he is asking us to ponder what Cloud and Aerith's relationship is in FFVII based on what we see during the ending of Kingdom Hearts. Therefore, based on Nomura’s KH comment, he doesn't seem to be someone who doesn't care about the LTD. Rather, he seems to be someone who want's to remain ambiguous about the LTD. Thus, it makes more sense for Nomura to say he has, "no clue" if Cloud and Tifa are in a romantic relationship because that is an ambiguous answer. Nomura’s ambiguous “no clue” comment matches his ambiguous KH comment.

Again, Nomura has explicitly stated he doesn't care who loves whom. That's inarguable. You've seen multiple translations of that quote even.

And, again, what he said about Cloud and Aerith in KH isn't necessarily LTD. I'm not disagreeing with your claim that the "connections" thing could also apply to them, but the bond between the two of them doesn't end and begin at romance. Given Nomura doesn't care about such things, his intent may not have been a romantic statement.

We don't know what he was trying to say, or if he was even trying to say something specific rather than just encourage players to ponder.

Regardless, your translation isn't fact. Your translation is simply a translation, just as the other translations are also translations.

Everyone who has translated that quote, including Clerith fans, have translated it as Nomura saying he doesn't care who loves whom.

During the Highwind scene, Cloud and Tifa realize they can get through anything as long as they have each other. This can either be a romantic or platonic declaration because it is said in both HW scenes. And I agree with it. Cloud and Tifa share a common past and she is the key to unlocking his memories. Whether as a friend or romantic partner, Tifa needs to be by Cloud’s side.

Cloud’s “because I have you” is simply a reaffirmation of Cloud & Tifa's sentiments under the Highwind. Sentiments that occur in both versions of the Highwind scene. Cloud and Tifa are saying that they no longer have to go on alone because they have one another for support. THAT is why Cloud says "what I mean is different" because, while Tifa was always there for Cloud, it was only after the HWS (and defeating Sephiroth) that he knew she would always be by his side. It was like he was saying, "Yeah, I know I've always had you, but now I know that I no longer have to go on alone and that you will always support me no matter what."

Stop with this circlejerk of nonsense. Cloud did not realize what he had already realized. You're trying to dress up the same epiphany with slightly different wording, and it's not going to work. Cloud meant something different and says so. End of.

Why did the translators use “Fine” as opposed to “Okay”? Probably because they realized Cloud was simply trying to avoid confrontation with Tifa, so “Fine” seemed more fitting than “Okay”.

Neither of us knows, nor has any way of knowing.

Even when things are good between Cloud and Tifa, they still have communication problems. They’ve had *CONSTASNT* communication problems ever since they were kids. This has *NEVER* changed, even during good times between them. Therefore, I didn’t use the wrong word.

You did. "Constant" and "consistent" are not the same. People use them differently and understand them differently. No amount of flipping open a dictionary will change how words are actually used.

The official English translation says "room". Why did they pick the word “room”?

Maybe they misunderstood it the same way they misunderstood the scene with Elmyra? Maybe they were in a hurry because they had tons of other pages to get to before the deadline for release?

Dude, I don't know and neither do you. The point is that it doesn't say what you think it does.

Regardless, the four walls being called an office doesn’t preclude Cloud from sleeping in the bed that is found within those four walls. What is the point of that bed if not to tell us Cloud sleeps there? No seriously. What is the point of including that bed if not to tell us Cloud sleeps there? Did SE just include a random bed for the hell of it?

We assume Marlene sleeps in the bed found in her room once Denzel arrives (despite never seeing her actually sleep in it). So what was SE's intent for including a bed within the four walls that are Cloud's designated space? Hmmm…probably to tell us Cloud sleeps there. I know... it’s a huge leap in logic.

It is irrelevant where Cloud’s clothes are kept because we never see where his clothes are kept. Do we know if there is space for his clothes in TIfa's room? Do we see his clothes in Tifa's room? How many times does Cloud change outfits? And does where Cloud keeps his clothes have any relevance on his ability to sleep in the bed that is found within the four walls that are his designed space?

No random (irrelevant) factors, such as a lack of other furniture, or a lack of clothes, prevent Cloud from sleeping in that bed. NOTHING prevents Cloud from sleeping in that bed.

When has anyone said Cloud doesn't use the bed? Everyone assumes he does. Saying the room is his office rather than his bedroom is not the same thing as saying he doesn't use that bed.

Stop strawmanning me. It's annoying.

Marlene always sleeping with Tifa is evidence that Cloud and Tifa were never a couple, even at the beginning of CoT.

If Marlene always slept with Tifa prior to Denzel’s arrival ...

And this is where you annoy the crap out of me with this Marlene thing. You keep making up the timeframe without a single shred of evidence that Marlene always slept with Tifa until Denzel arrived.

We know she slept with Tifa until Barret left. That's it. Denzel arrived long after. We don't know when Marlene stopped sleeping with Tifa. We just know that she did at some point after Barret told her to be strong for the family.

The logical mind would conclude, if it had to be presumptuous about something in this situation, that Marlene started sleeping by herself when Barret left since he had told her to unite the family's strength. That at least provides a catalyst for the change and says something about the character.

Thanks for your opinion that it is a stupid conclusion.

Here is my response again if you actually want to respond to it:
Tifa knew they were having communication problems. Therefore, it is reasonable for her to conclude that Cloud didn’t love her because he wasn’t communicating the reasons for his behavior, behavior that is unacceptable for any romantic partner.

It's still stupid. It's not a reasonable conclusion.

Having communication problems does not = people don't love each other. It means people are having communication problems. End of story.

It could be because one or both parties are naturally insecure. Tifa was. She wasn't communicating because of it. Does that mean she didn't love Cloud? Really, do you think about these things before you post them?

People can have communication problems for so many reasons that have nothing to do with a lack of love. They can have issues with themselves; they can be afraid to hurt the other person's feelings; or they may be visual thinkers rather than verbal thinkers or otherwise have difficulty sorting out what they want to say. Visual thinkers have difficulty expressing their feelings in words.

Not loving someone, however, is not a typical reason. So, yes, that was stupid and will continue to be stupid no matter how many times you repeat it.

My understanding is that it wasn’t the official script. So... where is your source that it is from the official/final script?

The fact that it was packaged with the official film? Jesus Christ.

What’s ironic is that Cloti's have no problem accepting that Sephiroth can take physical form using negative lifestream, but they have such a hard time accepting that Aerith can take physical form using positive lifestream.

No one has a problem with that. Where are you even getting this from?

The problem is with assuming Aerith happily will do what the villain of the film did and defy the planet's natural order for personal reasons. We're told she belongs in the Lifestream. She herself acknowledges that she can no longer be part of the living world.

That could not be more clear.

You may believe new releases supersede older releases, but I simply view them as equals – neither one supersedes the other.

Well, you're wrong. Seph doesn't stab Cloud in the shoulder. He skewers him.

Until SE says something definitively, it is only your opinion that the newest version always supersedes the *ORIGINAL* version.

Like release a new version of the fucking movie?

To me, they are two different versions that are equally canon.

Sometimes I really don't think you understand what that word means.

Besides, what we are arguing about is Aerith’s ability to take physical form.

No, we aren't.

Cloud stops in a flower field that is explicitly stated to represent Aerith in Reminiscence. That is very symbolic and tells me that while on the road making deliveries, Cloud seeks out Aerith's presence.

Even if that doesn't jive with what he's actually doing in the scene? Hell, even if it doesn't jive with your insisted interpretation that he knows he can find her presence in the church?

Dude, just give up. You've got to be as tired of this by now as I am. Hell, more tired. Making everything up as you go has to be harder work than being consistent. I'll give you that much. You're willing to work a lot harder for this than I am.

 

[Strangelove]

i don't know how releasing a film called 'advent children complete' wouldn't be considered release what they view as the complete version of the film

 

[Celes Chere]

Yes, smiling = clearly and unequivocally a sad expression:

no you don't understand

tifa is smiling because she is accepting the fact that cloud and aerith want to be together.

duh.

 

[Strangelove]

then she goes on to get upset about cloud and aerith

i guess you could say that smile was

an illusion

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

what you did there =P

 

[Sprites]

I don't own a copy of the Advent Children DVD. Can someone tell me how we know the film on the DVD is specifically from the Venice Film Festival?

Ugh I can't believe I actually resorted to this but here seeing as you REALLY want to know even thought it's already been clarified by two other people and because you need the evidence and proof being shoved in your face before you believe it. I grabbed my copy of Advent Children..."the original" one and took two bloody pics on my phone, one of the back of the dvd, I even included my own finger so you can tell it's me (I'm making a post about the nail art I did in my nail art thread) and the second of the DVD menu itself that plays when you stick the thing on.

Couldn't be plainer...there it is... VENICE FILM FESTIVAL FOOTAGE...Are you satisfied now?

Don't Cloti's obsess about Cloud's smile (or lack-thereof) at the end of AC/C?

I would be very careful about what you're saying here because it's very easy to take that statement apart...with full on proof of course.

For starters it's not a CLOTI thing, he smiles, he really honest to god does because he's friggin happy, did you know that the song that plays at the end of AC/C in the church is called...wait for it...CLOUD SMILES! That smile is actually there.

I'd call that smiling actually.

I'd also call that smiling

So I went and actually watched Distance: The Making of Advent Children again just to see what it says about Cloud's smile and here's the quote from Uematsu when he read the script to go with the tone of music for the soundtrack, just to confirm that it really does mention that he smiles, by the way, this is word for word, yup I painstakingly went though the dvd until I found and paused at the stuff, I thought relevant to my argument.

"...There was one line at the end....
...that said something like, Cloud smiles"
"I thought. "This is it. Cloud Smiles!"

Where's the Cloti reference?

Annnd here's what Nomura said, again word for word.

"In the end there is a scene where Cloud is surrounded by Children. That's my favourite Scene. There isn't really any dialogue and Cloud is...He's smiling, a little embarrassed...watching the kids".

.....sorry where's the Cloti reference again?

Absolutely nothing to do with Cloti and everything to do with just Cloud.

Similar to how you make everything about Aerith or Clerith, stop referencing everything to Cloti that has nothing to do with what you're talking about and stop referencing to Cloti in such a negative way while you're doing it....Christ I can't believe I actually had to go and watch Distance to make a point about that.

The lifestream is Cloud's Promised Land because he can find Aerith in the lifestream. That is what the Planet said in response to his question.

Made up nonsense again...moving on...

Actually I'd say more but Tres pretty much stomped all over the rest of your post so I got nothing else to add.

 

[BlankBeat]

Taking a little break from my debate with Tres (because, yes, I am tired). But rest assured, I have lots to say in response to your latest post.

I know the FTOIL page and the "koibito" quote have been discussed thoroughly. But during my response to Ryu, I did come up with a few points I hadn't thought of before. So, I'd love some feedback:

1. The FTOIL page is discussing the love of Final Fantasy protagonists:

"Through the long journeys, the love of the protagonists develop."

Cloud's Golden Saucer date is on the FTOIL page. Therefore, Cloud's date, by the definition set forth on the FTOIL page, is evidence of his (the protagonists) love. So... each and every date can be used as evidence of Cloud's romantic love for Aerith, Tifa, Yuffie, or, yes, even Barret.

Now, much has been made about the caption underneath the picture of Cloud and Aerith's date not specifically referring to their date. However, Aerith's profile states:

Young, beautiful, and somewhat mysterious, Aeris met Cloud while selling flowers on the streets of Midgar. She decided to join him soon after. Her unusual abilities allow her to heal the party, but she seems more interested in the deepening love triangle betwenn herself, Cloud and Tifa.

Based on this quote, it's obvious the only two dates that can realistically be applied to Cloud's love are Aerith's date and Tifa's date. Therefore, *BOTH* of these dates can be used as evidence of Cloud's love for either of them. However, Aerith's date is canon and Aerith's date is pictured, so I'm led to believe only Aerith's date is evidence of Cloud --the protagonists-- love developing.

It doesn't matter if you believe all the dates are represented on the FTOIL page.
It doesn't matter if you believe only CxA's and CxT's date can be applied to the FTOIL page because of what Aerith's profile states.
It doesn't matter if you believe only CxA's date can be applied to the FTOIL page because it's both pictured and canon.

The date, by being on a page that is discussing the love of a protagonist developing, means it can be used as evidence of Cloud's love developing for whomever's date you use.

Therefore, it's irrelevant that Cloud is unaware of Aerith or Tifa's feelings. Cloud is developing love while on ANY OF THESE DATES because it is on the FTOIL page. Thus, Cloud's date with Aerith is evidence of his love for her.

2.

“Cloud was her [Aerith] friend, her *koibito* (lover in Japanese) - a symbol of what was important to her, and someone to be protected.” ~Case of Lifestream: White, Square Enix

The "koibito" quote mentions Cloud and Aerith being friends, but no one assumes it was a one-sided friendship. So why would we assume it was a one-sided romance?

Besides, we already have evidence that tells us this WASN'T a one-side romance (Cloud telling Marlene he "hopes" Aerith likes him, CxA's date being on the FTOIL page, Cloud wavering between two heroines), so why would this "koibito" quote be referring to a one-sided romance?

Point is -- we don't assume this quote means Cloud and Aerith had a one-sided friendship, so why would we assume it means Cloud and Aerith had a one-sided romance?

EDIT:

Sprites, I'd call that a smirk

But thanks for showing me what the DVD says. That's all I wanted to know. I had no clue it actually said Venice Film Festival.

 

[Sprites]

Sprites, I'd call that a smirk

uhhhh....no...

That's a smirk.

 

[BlankBeat]

Body language is subjective. Thus, we'll never agree.

Personally, I view Tifa's body language at the end of FFVII as her realizing that Cloud associates his Promised Land (in part) with Aerith, and thus she looks sad.

Tres thinks that by Cloud moving his head in a downward motion, he is "miserable" while back-to-back with Aerith (even though Aerith is removing the very thing that is making him miserable)

In addition, Cloud seems to look serine and happy at the end of AC/C, but I wouldn't say he's necessarily smiling.

We'll all just have to agree to disagree.

 

[Sprites]

In addition, Cloud seems to look serine and happy at the end of AC/C, but I wouldn't say he's necessarily smiling.

...Serene

...Generally when someone smiles it's an indication of being happy.

And no I wouldn't say we just have to agree to disagree considering I just gave you two direct quotes telling you exactly what Cloud was doing in the last scene from Uematsu and Nomura, not to mention two screenshots of the smiley face business. You can try and get around it all you want BlankBeat, but Cloud is smiling in the ending, end of discussion.

 

[Dashell]

Okay I missed it and I don't want to dig through posts...

why is there a discussion on whether or not Cloud smiles in the end? How is him smiling either Clerith or Cloti? And the song that plays is called "Cloud Smiles"... so uh... what?

 

[Sprites]

@Quex: basically BB said that Cloti fans obsess over Cloud's smile and then mentioned lack of smiling, implying that there's no smile and something only Cloti mention.

So I went and got evidence that said smile actually exists (not that I should have had to)and isn't something that Cloti apparently obsess over.

I was merely putting him in his place that Cloud smiling has nothing whatsoever to do with the LTD and not to use it as an excuse to make a negative comment about the pairing, if he was to use it in an arguement for Clerith, I'd be saying the same. Cloud smiling has nothing to do with Aerith or Tifa. There. Discussion over.

 

[Strangelove]

i remember a time in the past when people made a fuss about cloud's smile and 'cloud smiles', based on uematsu's quote, saying that he wrote the song because of his smile at aerith (so it's proof for cloud/aerith), or that he was talking about cloud's smile after looking at tifa that's mentioned in the script (so it's proof for cloud/tifa)

 

[BlankBeat]

So I went and got evidence that said smile actually exists (not that I should have had to)and isn't something that Cloti apparently obsess over.

I've seen Cloti's obsess over if he smiles or not.

It doesn't look like a smile to me.

I was merely putting him in his place

lol

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Yes, the smile thing has been obsessed over, but by both Cloti folk and Clerith folk. Clerith folk have claimed things like "Uematsu wrote a song about Cloud's smile for Aerith/Aerith is the only one he ever smiles at" and Cloti folk have mentioned the only smile mentioned in the script -- and, thus, the one Uematsu referenced -- is the one he makes toward Tifa while the kids are jumping around him.

It's another pointless, stupid thing that doesn't tell us diddly dick about who Cloud wants to diddle with his dick. He smiles at Aerith, he smiles at Tifa. The end.


On another note, BlankBeat, please don't try derailing the discussion with this FTOIL page business. You've said all that before. It's not something you just now came up with.

I and plenty of other folks present have agreed before that the "koibito" thing could apply both ways (though you curiously won't accept that it does when used in reference to Tifa) as well as that the date with Aerith is fine to bring up/that Cloud had feelings for her too.

This red herring isn't going to distract anyone. Got anything else?