Strangelove, is there a way to view the AC presentation from the Venice Film Festival online?
Ryu, I’m still working on a response to you.
Tres, I'd first like to explain my thoughts on Cloud's line,
"I think I can find her... there":
First and foremost, SE views the hand reach scene as a moment between Cloud and Aerith; *NOT* a moment between Cloud, Aerith and Tifa. This is proven by the homage in AC:
The ending scene of the battle with Bahamut, the scene where Aerith reaches out her hand, is homage to the last scene from a previous production. ~Nojima, pg. 113, Reunion Files
AC took FFVII’s hand reach to the next level – Cloud and Aerith were finally able to lock hands, something they were so close to doing in FFVII.
Despite Tifa’s presence in both hand reach scenes, she is *NOT* the primary focus. The primary focus has always been about Cloud and Aerith reuniting. AC’s homage makes this perfectly clear.
So how should one analyze Tifa’s line in FFVII given SE’s homage in AC? Well, to start, both scenes are undeniably about Cloud being reunited with Aerith. But more specifically, the scene in FFVII is about Cloud associating his Promised Land with Aerith.
If you look at Tifa’s face after Cloud tells her his Promised Land is with Aerith, she seems to come to a sad realization. Tifa realizes Cloud has found his Promised Land, and his Promised Land, by his own admission, is with Aerith. This, to me, is why Tifa continues to have complicated feelings towards Aerith even in AC.
When Cloud tells Tifa about the Planet’s answer to his question, I don’t think he was including or excluding her. He was simply stating the conclusion he came to based on what he saw.
Granted, both of them can and will return to the lifestream. Tifa, however, would just be returning to the lifestream, whereas Cloud would be returning to the lifestream *AND* his Promised Land.
In other words, the lifestream happens to also be Cloud's Promised Land because he can FIND her (Aerith) in the lifestream. But for Tifa, it is simply the lifestream. Cloud is not including or excluding Tifa because everyone will return to the lifestream. However, Cloud is the one who will find his Promised Land in the lifestream, whereas Tifa will just find... the lifestream. Cloud isn’t inviting Tifa to go with him to his Promised Land, but he obviously can’t stop her from returning to the lifestream.
Aerith reaffirms this in Maiden of the Planet:
"But does that mean I'll disappear as soon as I meet Cloud? I wonder if that's what's happening or... Is there still something else I've still to do...?"
At that instant, Aerith felt something like an electric shock surge through her. She clenched one of her hands into a fist and hit the palm of her other hand, as it struck her. It was only her imagining her phantom self hitting her hands together but, she could clearly heard the "bang".
"It makes sense. There's a meaning to all this. There must be some reason why I haven't merged with the Lifestream yet and why I am still here as the way I am. Like how I was the only one in the world that could summon Holy from the Planet... There might still be something left that I have to do."
Just when the thought crossed her mind, she felt a little commotion from the Planet. It wasn't from the individual consciousnesses but the Planet as a whole as if to confirm what she was thinking.
"...I see. I wonder what it is."
Her question was answered with silence. The Planet too had yet to know what it was.
She smiled like the flowers that she used to sell in the slums. In the gentle fluorescent light, the smile that was loved by everyone bloomed sweetly.
"It's OK. There are still people I don't want to be separated from. I can't sleep yet. Until that time comes, I'll wander around here for a while. I'll spend my time here in the Planet... In our Promised Land...
Wishing she could send away her thoughts, Aerith looked up at the sky... She looked beyond the shell of the Planet above her head. The particles of Mako that floated and shooted around looked like the night sky to her.
She looked up into the sky like the time she sat beside Cloud around the kindling fire in Cosmo Canyon.*
This entire passage is talking about Aerith’s feelings for Cloud. Aerith also mentions meeting Cloud. So grammatically speaking, it only makes sense that the 'our' is in regards to herself and Cloud’s Promised Land:
“I'll wander around here for a while. I'll spend my time here in the Planet... In our Promised Land...”
Then, after mentioning hers and Cloud's Promised Land, she thinks back to when Cloud sat by her in Cosmo Canyon and told her he’d always be there for her. Given that Aerith remembered Cosmo Canyon while in this particular Promised Land, it stands to reason that this Promised Land is about the romantic bond between herself and Cloud.
Something that has been largely ignored by you is how this is rather similar to Dyne returning to his wife, Eleanor, in the lifestream. Obviously I can’t prove it, but I always thought SE intentionally included Dyne returning to his wife in the lifestream as a sort of parallel to Cloud and Aerith’s hand reach.
Anyway --
The Promised Land Aerith is in during MoT is also the Promised Land Cloud is referring to at the end of FFVII. This particular Promised Land is between Cloud and Aerith *only* (ie: it has nothing to do with Tifa). So although Tifa will return to the lifestream, she won’t be returning to this particular Promised Land because it is between Cloud and Aerith
only. As I stated before – Cloud will be returning to the lifestream *AND* his Promised Land, whereas Tifa will just be returning to... the lifestream. Cloud isn’t inviting Tifa to go with him to his Promised Land, but he obviously can’t stop her from returning to the lifestream.
What I don’t understand is how Cloti’s can say Cloud’s Promised Land is with his friends/family when he’s already stated that his Promised Land is with Aerith in the lifestream? I’d like an answer to this.
The two places that have been stated to be Cloud’s Promised Land have one thing in common: Aerith. The hand reach scene is about Aerith (the AC homage proves this), and the Sector 5 Church is
Aerith's Church. Whether it is Aerith’s Church or the lifestream, it is wherever Cloud can find Aerith that is stated to be his Promised Land. Both SE (
"The place where Cloud awakens, that is his Promised Land") and Cloud (
"The Promised Land... I think I can find her... there") have confirmed this.
Squall Leonhart said:
Lines which you're not looking at in context, by the way. I'm sure you're ascribing romantic meaning to this despite Cloud's constant association between guilt, forgiveness and meeting Aerith again.
In the Venice Film Festival presentation, what was the scene immediately preceding Tifa's line? Cloud asking for Aerith to forgive him.
Why does Cloud feel guilty for letting Aerith die? To me, it is because of the “special bond” SE says he formed with Aerith. And what was this special bond? A romantic bond.
Cloti’s love to say Clerith’s ignore Cloud’s guilt being the reason for his actions. Well, I say Cloti’s ignore the reason behind Cloud’s guilt. Cloud's guilt is derived from allowing someone he loved die. In other words, Cloud wouldn’t have guilt if it weren’t for the immense love he had developed for Aerith.
And I don’t want to hear: “WHAT ABOUT ZACK!?!?!?!?”
The reason for Cloud’s guilt over Zack’s death is platonic love. The reason for Cloud’s guilt over Aerith’s death is romantic love.
Bottom line – you can’t divorce Cloud’s guilt from the cause. And the cause for this guilt is that Cloud allowed two people he loved (one platonic and one romantic) to die.
The entire reason SE set up Cloud and Aerith’s romance was so that when she died, it would be that much more meaningful and depressing. It wasn’t just Cloud’s friend that died, it was a romantic interest that died. That was the entire point of including Cait Sith’s wedding prediction. Sephiroth didn't just kill a friend, he killed Cloud and Aerith’s romantic future.
When I see Cloud feeling immense guilt, I know it comes from a romantic place. Cloud felt something with Aerith – he was instantly attracted to both her physical features and personality. He developed a “special bond” with her. Therefore, his guilt wouldn’t be there if it weren’t for the romantic bond he formed with Aerith.
So as much as you might be sick of Clerith’s ignoring Cloud’s guilt as the reason for his behavior, I’m sick of Cloti’s ignoring the root of Cloud’s guilt (ie: Cloud’s romantic bond he formed with Aerith).
Squall Leonhart said:
To confirm, you are acknowledging then that it is the circumstances in the church at that moment that made it Cloud's Promised Land rather than a special feature of the church itself, yes?
I’ve always said that Aerith’s Church is stated to be Cloud’s Promised Land because that is where Cloud can be re-united with Aerith.
Squall Leonhart said:
And you immediately divorce the story from its proper context again, just as you get back on the right track.
What does Cloud say on the Highwind
the same night he said "I think I can find here ... there"?
"I'm going to live. I'll never be forgiven unless I do."
What is Cloud's underlying issue in Advent Children? His guilt.
Among the many other happy things it describes, what does the 10th Anniversary Ultimania passage about Cloud's Promised Land say? "He realizes that he was able to forgive himself."
For Cloud, finding Aerith again was always about getting her forgiveness. Cloud's Promised Land was always in large part about his guilt being lifted.
To make it about romantic longing, you have to completely ignore Cloud's greatest journey, which you always do. You always completely gloss over his guilt and how he tainted Aerith's memory, associating her with failure, penance and suffering rather than any sort of joy.
Romantic longing is not what Cloud's journey is about in Advent Children. It is not a love story -- it's about a man who is too hard on himself learning to love himself and accept that he deserves the love of the people around him.
'Cause, by comparison, being consumed with guilt is just the most romantic basis for a relationship, huh?
Your argument ignores what the Promised Land is.
Aerith says you know you’ve reached the Promised Land after,
"You search and travel, until you feel it. Like you just know, …this is the Promised Land.”
Therefore, the Promised Land isn’t necessarily a place, but is a *feeling* one gets — a feeling of supreme happiness.
If Cloud simply wanted to meet Aerith to remove his guilt, why would he also refer to finding Aerith as his Promised Land?
Your theory would make sense if Cloud said this:
An answer from the Planet …
I think I can meet her... there
In other words, *IF* Cloud didn’t mention anything about the Promised Land, it would be reasonable to conclude that the Planet told him he could meet Aerith in the lifestream so she could forgive him and remove his guilt.
But Cloud specifically says that his *Promised Land* is with Aerith in the lifestream. Ones Promised Land is a feeling of supreme happiness. As Aerith says,
“...you feel it. Like you just know …this is the Promised Land”. Cloud felt his Promised Land when he saw Aerith reaching down to him. Cloud said so himself. Therefore, by Cloud’s own admission, being with Aerith is his Promised Land.
Cloud’s desire to find Aerith is not only about his guilt, but is also about his desire to be with the woman that makes him feel supreme happiness... the exact feeling Aerith says one has when they know they’ve reached their Promised Land.
Squall Leonhart said:
What would suddenly prompt Barret to return to her presence on an ongoing basis when it was his presence he was removing her from in the first place? He has changed his mind, at least for now.
And, no, I don't find it odd that he would take her with him while he continued searching for oil. Do her feelings not matter? If he's decided he has earned having her around him again, but knows he still has work to do, and she wants her dad, then what is so weird about that?
Do you think he would be selfish enough to deny her wish to spend time with him if he's decided he's fit to be a father again? Do you think he would be selfish enough to abandon a world that needs him when it is seeing to the world's needs that is supposed to allow him to earn being Marlene's father in the first place?
I'm not saying that you aren't making sense. I'm not saying that she definitely left Seventh Heaven. I'm saying that it doesn't make sense how you're acting like the only thing that makes any kind of sense is that Barret has moved back there.
1. Barret has shown, from the very beginning of FFVII, that while he has other business to tend to (defeating Shinra, defeating Sephiroth, resolving his past, digging for oil) he leaves Marlene in the care of others. He doesn’t take her with him. His history and past behavior doesn’t match the scenario you’ve set forth.
2. Barret didn’t take Marlene away from Seventh Heaven when he first began in the oil business. Therefore, we already know he doesn’t want Marlene around the oil business.
3. I honestly don’t think Barret would take Marlene away from Seventh Heaven (even if she asked). Seventh Heaven is her home. That is where she has her family. Taking Marlene away from Cloud, Tifa, Denzel, and the only home she has ever known is not something I foresee Barret doing (even if she asked).
When you combine these three reasons, with the fact that Cloud, Tifa, and Barret are seen traveling together, in addition to knowing that Barret helped rebuild Seventh Heaven so it will always be his home, I think my scenario is the most plausible scenario.
I’ll concede that my scenario isn’t the only possible scenario, but it is, IMO, the most likely scenario.
Squall Leonhart said:
Responding to Reeve's request to meet him in Kalm, Vincent fights Deepground forces when they attack the town. Afterward, Vincent and Reeve travel together toward Edge in a WRO truck (a WRO truck). When Vincent gets there, Edge is almost completely abandoned at this point, with exception to the Deepground forces and one civilian child they overlooked. Everyone else in the city has either fled at this point or been taken to bed fed to Omega.
Soon after, Vincent goes to Nibelheim to investigate, where more Deepground forces have attacked. Yuffie ends up rescuing him, as she was also in the area, investigating at Reeve's request. After the rescue, the two of them travel together (in another WRO truck; let me reiterate:*a WRO truck) back toward WRO headquarters, which then gets attacked. After the attack, Cid shows up with the airship fleet.
But Vincent and Yuffie didn’t travel to Nibleheim together in a WRO truck. However, because they both happened to be in the same place (Nibleheim), they were able to travel in a WRO truck together.
I guess what I’m trying to say is that it doesn’t seem as though you go and pick someone up in a WRO truck. It seems as though if you’re in the same place (Nibleheim and/or Seventh Heaven) you are seen traveling in a WRO truck together.
Squall Leonhart said:
Yes, Cloud, Tifa and Barret could have fled Edge together before the WRO's counterattack, but Cloud and Tifa could have fled, and were then joined by Barret -- whose DC profile says he is responding to the crisis in Edge -- before participating in the counterattack together. There's nothing demanding either possibility be the truth.
Why make up this complicated scenario where Barret joined Cloud and Tifa later, and also decided to remove Marlene from Seventh Heaven (the place he intentionally left her in the first place)?
Seems more likely Barret started living with Marlene at Seventh Heaven, and then Cloud, Barret, and Tifa left Seventh Heaven in a WRO truck.
Personally, I think my scenario is much simpler and doesn’t require lots of unlikely scenarios taking place.
Squall Leonhart said:
Here's the complete sentence about Barret living with Marlene, by the way:
現在は、親友の遺児であるマリンと共に暮らしているが、DGによってエッジの街が襲われたのをきっかけに、今回の戦いに参加することになる。
"Currently, he is living with Marlene, the orphaned child of his best friend; however, with the town of Edge having been attacked by DG, he will take part in the current battle."
How does one read this? As he's taking part in the battle because he lives in Edge? Or as he's taking part in the battle because people he loves live there? It's not clear. There is nothing definitive about this passage, and the circumstances of what was happening in the world at the time reduces figuring out where he lives relative to DC's timeframe to unverifiable speculation.
All we know about the living arrangements at the time of DC is that Barret is said to be living with Marlene (DC Complete Guide), Cloud is said to be living with Tifa (CC Complete Guide and CC Ultimania), and Denzel is living with Cloud and Tifa (Episodeenzel).
It’s weird Cloud is said to be living with
only Tifa, but Denzel is said to be living with Cloud *AND* Tifa.
Again – I’ll concede that my scenario isn’t the only possible scenario. But I think (based on the reasons I’ve provided) that my scenario is the most likely scenario.
Squall Leonhart said:
Thank you. Isn't that all that really needs to be said about them?
In my opinion... no.
Squall Leonhart said:
Maybe so, and I don't think you're wrong, but if you have to go to this much trouble to analyze a flowchart -- and if you have to make exception for all the complicated connections that are beyond the scope of such diagrams -- don't you think you're looking too far into its value? I do agree with your reasoning as to why the AC chart identifies them as it does, but I'm never going to step aside while the chart itself is argued as evidence that Cloud and Tifa aren't any of the things other flowcharts have described other FF couples with ("important existence/person" and "favors") when those same terms have been used to describe Cloud and Tifa's relation to one another in other places.
To me, the relationship charts are just another piece of the puzzle. One more piece of evidence confirming that SE doesn’t view Cloud and Tifa as a canon couple.
SE believes Cloud and Tifa are nothing more than “childhood friends” in AC because they use the same description in the AC chart as they use in the FFVII chart. There is no evolution in the *STATUS* of their relationship. So although their relationship has changed, their *OFFICIAL* status hasn’t. Cloud and Tifa aren’t a couple, they are childhood friends. This is confirmed by SE through the relationship charts.
In addition, the AC relationship chart also confirms what you believe – Cloud and Tifa aren’t a couple after CoT. The AC chart can be used as evidence to support your conclusion.
Squall Leonhart said:
Absolutely. How could they be? He had walked out on everyone/forced everyone to walk out on him against their will. If they were together before, that's pretty much a breakup without the "Dear Tifa" letter.
I agree. Cloud and Tifa are clearly not together by the end of CoT.
Whether they were together at the beginning of CoT is still debatable, however.
Squall Leonhart said:
I was talking about Tidus and Yuna. They never had a "be my girlfriend?" conversation.
But Tidus x Yuna do have a romantic moment after confirming their feelings – when Yuna tells Tidus she loves him and Tidus embraces her. That moment is equivalent to the, “be my girlfriend” conversation, IMO.
Bottom line: Tidus x Yuna have a romantic moment after confirming mutual feelings. Cloud x Tifa have... blushing??
Squall Leonhart said:
I would conclude they went back to trying to make it work once Cloud went home. Thus, Nojima's comments about how things might go after Advent Children Complete.
Right. According to Nojima, Denzel and Marlene may or may not be able to help Cloud and Tifa sort through their issues. Therefore, Cloud and Tifa’s relationship status is uncertain/unknown after AC/C.
Squall Leonhart said:
You've seen it translated the way I mentioned too.
I don’t think it makes sense that Nomura would say he doesn’t care about Cloud and Tifa’s relationship status, though. Other comments he has made (such as saying the ending of KH can provide commentary on Cloud x Aerith’s relationship in FFVII) tell me he isn’t opposed to caring about the LTD. He has made other LTD comments as well.
To me, it makes more sense that he’d say he has no clue if Cloud and Tifa are in a relationship because he doesn’t want to upset either side of the LTD. Saying he doesn’t care about the LTD, however, would be upsetting to a lot of people who *DO* care about the LTD. Plus, there’s no indication from his other comments that he doesn’t care about the LTD, especially when we consider he has no problem commenting on Clerith in Kingdom Hearts.
Regardless of Nomura’s quote, though, the extent of Cloud and Tifa’s romantic relationship after the HAHW scene is blushing. And to me, blushing is hardly evidence of a romantic relationship.
Again – I view Cloud and Tifa as more than friends but less than lovers during the beginning of CoT. Then, by the end of CoT, they are back to being childhood friends because, according to Nojima, things didn’t go well between them. Their romantic relationship is done at the end of CoT, which is why the AC relationship chart lists them as “childhood friends”. Then, after AC/C is over, Cloud and Tifa’s relationship status is again uncertain and unknown according to Nojima.
Bottom line: Cloud and Tifa are not a canon couple.
Squall Leonhart said:
Dude, you just said Cloud and Tifa weren't thinking about a romantic relationship at the time of the Highwind scene. Why would the context of "At least we don't have to go on alone" (into a battle they didn't expect to win, and to which they didn't know anyone but the two of them would be going) be the same as the context of an "I know my life can succeed this time because I have you" after the battle is over, after the world has been saved, and when the two of them know they will live to see a future in which they can do whatever they want?
You're trying to have this both ways. You want the romantic confessions of the Highwind scene not to apply post-Meteor, but you want the sense of companionship as they headed into a suicidal battle to be the same sense of companionship post-Meteor.
Pick one. You can't have both.
I don’t disagree that Cloud and Tifa have a unique bond – they share a common history and the same hometown. Tifa is the key to unlocking Cloud’s memories. Therefore, Cloud needs her by his side no matter what. This is why the line,
“At least we don’t have to go on alone” appears in both versions of the Highwind scene. Tifa, whether a friend or romantic partner, must be by Cloud’s side.
Now, winning the final battle proved that they could, in-fact, get through anything so long as they didn’t have to go on alone. I simply view Cloud’s,
“...because I have you” line as building off of what was already said in the Highwind scene. The only difference between what was said underneath the Highwind to Cloud’s
“because I have you” line is that Cloud now knows it’s true because of their victory over Sephiroth.
The victory over Sephiroth confirms to Cloud that with Tifa by his side he can get through anything. But this isn’t necessarily a romantic declaration because the same sentiments were said in both versions of the Highwind scene. The only difference between what was said in the Highwind scene to when Cloud says,
“...because I have you” is defeating Sephiroth. Defeating Sephiroth confirmed that with Tifa by his side, Cloud can, in-fact, get through anything.
In other words, Cloud’s
“because I have you” is simply a reaffirmation of Cloud & Tifa's sentiments under the Highwind. They are saying that they no longer have to go on alone because they have one another for support.*THAT* is why Cloud says
"what I mean is different" because, while Tifa was always there for Cloud, it was only after the Highwind Scene and defeating Sephiroth, that he knew she would always be by his side and that they could, in-fact, get through anything together.
Squall Leonhart said:
He also explains that he believes Aerith brought Denzel to him for this purpose, and agrees to take Tifa with him the next time he goes.
Cloud says, "Fine" when Tifa says she will go with him to Aerith's church the next time he goes. That isn't an agreement, but is a way for Cloud to avoid confrontation. How do I know? Because the proof is in the pudding – Cloud never once takes Tifa with him to the Church. Why didn’t he take her in the first place?
And honestly, the word “Fine” isn’t a very compelling word. It seems as though Cloud is appeasing Tifa. He just wants her off his back.
And we’ll never know if Cloud would have taken Tifa to the Church because he never does. All we know is that he never took her in the first place.
Why did Cloud decide not to take her with him to the Church in the first place? Why did she have to ask to go? The obvious answer is that Cloud didn’t want to take her.
Squall Leonhart said:
We have been outright told more than once that Cloud left because of his geostigma and his belief that this meant he had failed to make up for his "sins." He didn't leave because of Tifa. He didn't not take her the next time he went to the church because she had "inserted herself." He left because he (thought he) was a miserable failure who didn't deserve his family, and he didn't take Tifa because he was a miserable failure going to beg for forgiveness before death took him.
When did I say Cloud left because of Tifa?
And we’ll never know if Cloud would have taken Tifa because he never does. All we know is that Cloud didn’t take her in the first place and that she had to ask to go. Cloud response of “Fine” was just a way to appease Tifa and avoid confrontation.
Also...
A close friend as well as rival?
The complicated emotions she feels towards Aerith.
Both of them share feelings for Cloud. Tifa was close to Aerith, who can also be called a love rival. With that point in mind, they were also good friends. Nevertheless, it is not hard to imagine that she carries complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith, who had built up a special bond with Cloud that was different from Tifa's.
Tifa's complicated feelings [toward Aerith] continue even in AC, two years after Aerith had departed the world. This was due to the fact that Cloud, succumbing to the notion that Aerith's death was his fault and condemning himself, construed that Denzel was "the child which Aerith brought here" and took care of him. In addition, Cloud had gone away to the church that Aerith had been in. The thing that she is unable to hide her irritation toward Cloud is the fact that he isn't merely dragging the past around, but because that reason might perhaps be related to Aerith. ~FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania, Tifa's profile
It's pretty obvious from this that Tifa was jealous when Cloud mentioned Aerith. It even specifically states that Tifa had "complicated feelings toward Aerith" because Cloud thought Aerith brought Denzel to him. She was also "irritated" at the fact that Cloud went to live in Aerith's church. So, you know she had to be jealous when she heard Cloud was visiting Aerith's church. She was jealous over the Denzel thing & she was jealous over the fact that Cloud was seeking comfort in Aerith's church. All of this was confirmed.
IMO, I think Cloud could sense this and didn’t want Tifa around when it pertained to Aerith.
Squall Leonhart said:
Look, I'm not saying that the "I can find here there" translation is wrong. I'm saying we don't know the pronouns there are any more right than if "we" was used instead, and for you to harp on and on about the use of "I" (a word that isn't even there) is completely illogical when the Japanese sources addressing the matter make no effort to bolster what you claim and, in truth, openly contradict it.
Sony translated the line twice. These are the official English translations. You’re really fighting an uphill battle with trying to say that both official English translations are wrong.
Anyway – Cloud is neither including or excluding Tifa. Everyone returns to the lifestream at some point. But Cloud is not just talking about returning to the lifestream, he is talking about his Promised Land, too. And his Promised Land is between him and Aerith, *NOT* Tifa.
Cloud will be returning to the lifestream *AND* his Promised Land, whereas Tifa will just be returning to the... lifestream. Cloud isn’t inviting Tifa to go with him to his Promised Land, but he obviously can’t stop her from returning to the lifestream.
Squall Leonhart said:
Yes, we can agree that he was ignoring her calls at that time (when he was being consumed by guilt, before he found his justification to be happy again), the same as he was ignoring her calls when he resumed being consumed by guilt (after getting geostigma).
I’m glad I was able to remind you of Tifa saying that Cloud never calls. Thus, Cloud was ignoring Tifa's calls.
Squall Leonhart said:
Can you not just acknowledge you didn't use the right word for what you were trying to convey?
con·stant adjective \ˈkän(t)-stənt\
: happening all the time or very often over a period of time
Source:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/constant
Squall Leonhart said:
Ignoring that the word Tifa used for "room" also means "apartment" and refers to the private living space above businesses? Which is probably what she meant since she didn't say "your" and Cloud was being sulky down in the customer area.
Does the official English translation say apartment or room? Pretty sure it says “room”.
I always found it so funny when Cloti’s would say there’s no other furniture in that room, or that it doesn’t look like a bedroom, or that none of Cloud’s clothes were shown in it, as if any of that precludes Cloud from sleeping in that bed. NOTHING precludes Cloud from sleeping in that bed, even if it is considered his “office”.
IMO, that bed is the most likely place for Cloud to sleep while Marlene always slept with Tifa.
In addition, we assume Marlene slept in the bed found in her room once Denzel arrives, yet we never see her sleeping in it.
Bottom line: Cloud’s office is his room and his room is his office. The fact that his room can be an office, too, doesn't preclude Cloud from sleeping in the bed that is within those four walls. Those four walls have been refereed to as Cloud’s office and his room because it’s both.
Squall Leonhart said:
On this much, I agree. The presence of a separate bed for him and our attention being called to it absolutely must be meant to emphasize the increased distance that emerged between Cloud and Tifa.
I’m still wondering where Cloti’s think Cloud slept when Marlene always slept with Tifa.
Squall Leonhart said:
It is, but that's not how you brought it up. You claimed that Tifa knew better than we did what was going on in their relationship, and she did not. She didn't know the extent of his guilt, she didn't know that he left because he got geostigma and thought it was a sign he didn't deserve the family, and so on and so forth. Tifa didn't know what was going on, and you aren't supposed to trust her insecurities any more than you're supposed to trust Hojo's conclusions about Cloud, despite Hojo being the "expert" who performed those experiments on him.
Tifa knew they were having communication problems. Therefore, it is reasonable for her to conclude that Cloud didn’t love her because he wasn’t communicating the reasons for his behavior, behavior that is unacceptable for any romantic partner.
Squall Leonhart said:
"Vestiges of Aerith (nothing with any presence in reality) silently watch Cloud as he rides away."
No.
And even if it were here, he rides away.
I notice how you didn’t provide a source for this quote.
From my understanding, it is from a script that has many errors/inaccuracies. A script that isn't the official script but is a rough draft.
Anyway –
1. That script also says Aerith smiles, which she doesn't. And, no presence in reality? Doesn't the wind blow Aerith’s hair?
2. Reminiscence *PROVES* that Cloud stops in the flower fields while he is talking to Tifa on the phone.
I still have Ryu's post to tend to first.
. In the same interview, he already made direct statement about how he doesn't care about romance.
