The Love Triangle of FFVII Part IV: A New Hope

[Gym Leader Devil]

Y'know what I think this thread needs? Something on the level of part 3's "Many gumballs... fucked." I laughed myself to tears that day. Good times.

 

[Zee]

And I love to watch.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Damn it Ryu, you've scarred poor Tetra for life. I hope you're pleased with yourself.

Wait, you would be wouldn't you?

 

[Son Goku]

Clukki can't be canon because Mukkiroth is.
Yes, Sephypoo's taking it in the pooper from Mukki.

You have no proof! Stop deluding yourself, you religious extremist!

Spoiler

Well, I suppose it's more evidence than either cleriths or clotis have... what with the scene under the Highwind not being shown and all.

yeah, Mukki is the only one who got action with Cloud for sure. I provided real ingame shown evidence!
Indications towards a Clerith or Cloti conclusion were merely red herrings.

Red herring - A clue that is misleading or that has been falsified, intended to divert attention.

You people see the purple light now?

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

If ever the fabled remake comes to be, I hope we see Mukki with a rape-face so horrible that it crosses the line twice and becomes funny again. Just saying.

 

[Dashell]

Mukki's a rapist, guys. Seriously.

and?

 

[Ryushikaze]

Damn it Ryu, you've scarred poor Tetra for life. I hope you're pleased with yourself.

Wait, you would be wouldn't you?

Yes I would. GIVE ME SEXY ZELDA, DAMMIT.

and?

Remember folks, Quex approves of raping Cloud.
It's her 'thing'

 

[Max Payne]

Remember folks, Quex approves of raping Cloud.
It's her 'thing'

I thought it was general abuse of Cloud. She got the vapors when SEFIROS emptied his tank all over edge

 

[Dashell]

Remember folks, Quex approves of raping Cloud.
It's her 'thing'

You act like this is new

As long as Cloud is in pain, I'm happy

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Yes I would. GIVE ME SEXY ZELDA, DAMMIT.

Just for you Ryu: http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs20/f/2007/276/3/9/Sleepy_Zelda_by_ghostfire.jpg

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I can't leave you people alone for five minutes, much less a week. I come back to find the old LTD hangout was destroyed in a riot and there's a shiny new one.

Let's see if I can even begin to catch up on all the bullshit.

On the topic of Aerith being stupid or not in going to the City of the Ancients alone, it's a moot point considering Sephiroth could have killed any of them at any time he wanted to regardless -- and demonstrated as much on the one occasion where he cared enough to actually try it.

Seriously, even if you're like Mako and don't believe he could phase through solid matter or teleport, then you still have to acknowledge he could have made a piece of JENOVA look like anyone and just skewered them while walking past them in the street.

Whether the team had gone with Aerith or not, she was dead the moment Sephiroth decided she was a problem. End of story.

Well, not quite. Sephiroth wouldn't have killed her himself without trying to make Cloud do it first anyway. But she was still going to die either way.

Unless you think within the framework of the universe of FFVII it was a smart move for Aerith to get herself brutally killed.

Kinda saved the world, bro, what with the casting Holy and then using the Lifestream in the ending. So, yeah, I'm going to say that was a positive. =P

also Sephiroth is pretty fucking stupid for not killing her before she finished praying for Holy. Imo

This. Absolutely this.

http://tifa.nu/tifa/original/original.php?z=love01

there's where that quote came from...
still doesn't say where the interview is from though

Guinevere's site has more than a little misinformation, especially concerning the Kaitai Shinsho. The site attributes this book with saying that Tifa's name is derived from "Tiffany," as well as with information about Johnny being a childhood friend of Tifa's from Nibelheim -- and that's information that simply isn't in the book.

As we've seen, that quote about Nomura not choosing who Cloud likes was simply a distortion of a quote about Kingdom Hearts.

Idk, I just figured she would have "woken" him up sooner if he was the one she loved. Yeah I know, she had other things to worry about, but all those things to worry about were still present during AC when Zack was there.

In addition to the point made about it really going against the natural order to be putting souls back together, I'd also posit that to ask this question about Zack is really unfair if one isn't also asking why it took Aerith longer to contact Cloud than it apparently did for her to reassemble Zack.

Kind of a double standard otherwise.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Missed you Tres. <3

Also, the Aerith thing...No one called her stupid. The act of going off alone is, and will remain, stupid. The end result being the same doesn't negate that fact. It's like saying walking in front of a bus isn't stupid because in the end we all die anyway. WTF?

Reasons and noble ending aside, it's horror movie cliche and dumb as a stick.

 

[TheHammerOf...JUSTICE]

Missed you Tres. <3

Also, the Aerith thing...No one called her stupid. The act of going off alone is, and will remain, stupid. The end result being the same doesn't negate that fact. It's like saying walking in front of a bus isn't stupid because in the end we all die anyway. WTF?

Reasons and noble ending aside, it's horror movie cliche and dumb as a stick.

I think your missing the point completely. Sephiroth never once considered Aeris a true threat. She was never really in danger from him until Cloud arrived on some levels. He didn't really consider Holy a threat and was more interested in torturing Cloud by either A. having Cloud kill her or B. killing her right in front of him as he watched unable to stop him.

When he implied to Cloud in the sleeping forest in his dreams that he was gonna kill her to stop her plan it was mostly just to screw with him. If he was truly intent on stopping her from summoning holy then he would have just walked right into gongaga and stabbed her through the chest before she could even leave town. And if anyone tried to stop him they would have died to.

 

[Ite]

So Sephiroth is a victim of hubris?

 

[Dashell]

In addition to the point made about it really going against the natural order to be putting souls back together,

BUT SHE DID THIS! Did she not?

I'd also posit that to ask this question about Zack is really unfair if one isn't also asking why it took Aerith longer to contact Cloud than it apparently did for her to reassemble Zack.

I just figured she couldn't at the time but could in ACC because Sephiroth was dicking around with the lifestream.

And I've heard people make arguments like "If Aerith is so important to Cloud why isn't she mentioned here? Why is just Tifa listed?" and stuff... well I'm asking the same thing only with Zack. If he was so important, why isn't he mentioned in CoLW when she apparently put all those souls back together. Why is he just lumped in with them?

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

In response to stuff said above in response to Tres' most recent post (welcome back btw) hell yes Sephy was a victim of hubris. What with his surfing the Lifestream for years he had to know about Holy, the same way he knew about Meteor. It'd just be silly to assume he learned about the Black Materia but not the White. My guess?He probably wanted her to summon it first. Its just his kind of sadistic tendency to say "Y'know what'd torture everyone (especially Cloud) worse than just having to watch a giant space rock slowly descend to kill them all? Knowing that the mechanism for preventing it is in play, but I'm just so badass I won't let it happen! That'll show 'em!"

 

[minimosey]

The life energy of the dead gets broken down to get used for other things. No, that does not necessarily make "reconstructing" a soul or infusing a soul or whatever Aerith did THE EVIL, especially since this is presumably only temporary. They're working to protect the Planet, just as Cetra who didn't immediately rejoin with the Planet after death did. But I think the point of the "natural order" argument is that it would be petty and selfish to reconstruct Zack just for the sake of company, which is presumably why he's simply unnamed in the number of people she enlists to help.

 

[Dashell]

But I think the point of the "natural order" argument is that it would be petty and selfish to reconstruct Zack just for the sake of company, which is presumably why he's simply unnamed in the number of people she enlists to help.

My point was that she did reconstruct Zack... and I've seen the argument that if Aerith is so important to Cloud, why isn't she mentioned in such and such a place and things like that. Or "Why is she just lumped together with Zack" and stuff... so it's the same thing here really.

That's all.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

and I've seen the argument that if Aerith is so important to Cloud, why isn't she mentioned in such and such a place and things like that. Or "Why is she just lumped together with Zack" and stuff... so it's the same thing here really.

I don't follow....

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

BUT SHE DID THIS! Did she not?

She did, though one doesn't really get the impression she would have been so inclined if not for the crisis at hand. We're told, after all, in the 10th AU that she and Zack go back to the Lifestream once Sephiroth is dealt with. One gets the impression that Aerith is only so willing to interfere in the natural order as much as is necessary to counter Sephiroth's own distortion of that system.

I just figured she couldn't at the time but could in ACC because Sephiroth was dicking around with the lifestream.

I'm not sure I understand why you think this. If we attribute her inability to clean up Geostigma until Cloud beat Sephiroth to his presence, why would we think his presence made things easier for her to do anything else? For that matter, her big phone prank came after Sephiroth was gone. So the double standard remains to be addressed: why didn't Aerith contact Cloud sooner if that is an indication of her affection?

And I've heard people make arguments like "If Aerith is so important to Cloud why isn't she mentioned here? Why is just Tifa listed?" and stuff... well I'm asking the same thing only with Zack. If he was so important, why isn't he mentioned in CoLW when she apparently put all those souls back together. Why is he just lumped in with them?

You'll need to ask someone who thinks Aerith doesn't love Cloud and thinks she meant little to him, I suppose. What mention are you talking about that Tifa made but Aerith didn't, by the way?

 

[Dashell]

EDIT:

God dammit Tres, get on MSN so I can yell at you


Okay was typing this post up as you replied, let me reply to you:

She did, though one doesn't really get the impression she would have been so inclined if not for the crisis at hand. We're told, after all, in the 10th AU that she and Zack go back to the Lifestream once Sephiroth is dealt with. One gets the impression that Aerith is only so willing to interfere in the natural order as much as is necessary to counter Sephiroth's own distortion of that system.

Fair enough, it's just when people say she so in love with Zack and Cloud hardly meant anything to her and what not, it DOES Make me wonder why she wouldn't just say fuck it and do it anyway

I'm not sure I understand why you think this. If we attribute her inability to clean up Geostigma until Cloud beat Sephiroth to his presence, why would we think his presence made things easier for her to do anything else? For that matter, her big phone prank came after Sephiroth was gone. So the double standard remains to be addressed: why didn't Aerith contact Cloud sooner if that is an indication of her affection?

I would guess because she couldn't for some reason. Perhaps she didn't figure out how to do it. My point about Sephiroth was that while he was around, the lifestream probably suffered and went... for lack of better term, kind of wacky for a bit which would enable her to do these things. idk

You'll need to ask someone who thinks Aerith doesn't love Cloud and thinks she meant little to him, I suppose. What mention are you talking about that Tifa made but Aerith didn't, by the way?

Just various times Aerith has been called a frined, or how Tifa is singled out a lot and such.

---------

I seriously can't be explaining this that badly, can I? Okay THIS is the argument I'm trying to make:

Aerith loves Cloud more than Zack.

Counter Argument #1.1: But here's stuff from the Crisis Core Ultimania that says they were destined, that they were inseparable, that their meeting was fateful and what not.

Me: And I am by NO means saying none of this is true. Zack is very important to Aerith and vice versa, that's obvious. However it IS possible to love more than one person. While Aerith still holds Zack close to her heart and still loves him dearly, I found her actions toward Cloud in FFVII and the next few installments indicated that she truly loved Cloud, and that she loved him more than Zack.

Counter Argument #1.2: There's nothing that says that she loved Cloud MORE than Zack.

Me: Case of Lifestream White states that Cloud is her beloved/lover/sea monkey. I find it odd that there is NO mention of Zack, at all, in CoLW even though she apparently reassembled his spirit for support.

She rushed through the Lifestream in search of other souls to help her. Ancients, on the verge of diffusing. These fragments of consciousness accepted her undertaking. When she found fragments of consciousness of people she had once known&#8211; pitifully few in number&#8211; she infused them with her own memories and sought their assistance. She had more spirits on her side now, but even so the hatred borne by that man did not decrease. She then thought of Cloud, living in his reality up on the surface.

Here she's, in a round about way, reassembling spirits. We know that she reassembled Zack at some point, and chances are it's here. There's no mention of him whatsoever. I just think there would be.

Counter Argument #1.3: CoLW isn't about Aerith's love life. She had other things to worry about such as Sephiroth.

Me: If Cloud gets a mention as her beloved while Sephiroth is around, surely the man who she loves more than him would at least get a mention as well especially after she was reunited with him.

Counter Argument #1.4: She didn't even think about Cloud until she found Sephy though.

Me: Maybe cause she had other things to worry about? See what I did there? No but we don't know what she was thinking about before CoLW started because it doesn' tell us

Counter Argument #1.5: What about the Dengaki profiles that say that Zack is always by her side?

Me: TBH, I don't consider those as official sources. I mean the one says Cloud set out to find a cure for Denzel and THEN he got sick. If he really and truly left 7th Heaven for that, you'd think he would have told Tifa. It makes much more sense for him to get the disease and THEN run off because he doesn't want to tell Tifa because he's ashamed (which is something I just kind of thought of)

-----------------------------

Counter Argument #2 But she never knew the real Cloud, she was chasing Zack 2.0.

Me: Cloud was never quite Zack 2.0 He took some things from Zack, yes, but he was really not that much like Zack. Zack was cheerful and happy go lucky, Cloud was never this. Official sources have stated that while he did take some of Zack's personality, he also held some of his original personality as well.

Due to the influence of the Jenova cells implanted in his body he acted out a false persona, but with the support of his friends he regains his true self and grows as a person.

The origin of the saying "not interested". In the scene when the young Cloud explains his mental state by
saying, "I used to think people around me were foolish", surprisingly, he shows the posture of shrugging his shoulders. If we consider this, the part of his coolness that keeps him away from the surroundings and the part of his asserting "not interested" all have nothing to do with the influence of Jenova cells, they belong to the real Cloud's personality.

After developing his personality by using Zack, who has cheerful characteristics, his memory as the base, Cloud still remained the part of coolness

So, no he was not Zack 2.0. He was different, but not exactly like Zack. Enough like Zack that she noticed, yes, I will agree with that, but not Zack 2.0. again, I'm NOT saying he wasn't a little bit like that, there are sources that say Aerith was first attracted to him because of the Zack like personality, but he wasn't exactly like Zack.

Counter Argument #2.1: She STILL never had feelings for him, just the Zack version.

Me: Not according to many sources:

A close friend as well as rival?
The complicated emotions she feels towards Aerith.

Both of them share feelings for Cloud &#8212; Tifa was close to Aerith, who can also be called a love rival.

Despite his cold behavior in several scenes, Cloud is essentially popular with members of the opposite sex. In
addition to FFVII&#8217;s heroines Tifa and Aerith both having feelings for him, AVALANCHE&#8217;s Jessie and
young Priscilla in Junon both also fall for Cloud soon after they meet him.

------

Both Aerith, who is forthright, and Tifa, who is demure, have feelings for Cloud but he is none the wiser to them

Even though Aerith perceived that Cloud had lost sight of his true self, she still has great affection for him.

and for good measure:

Cloud was her friend, her beloved &#8212; a symbol of what was important to her, and someone to be protected

Plus it's a damn love triangle as Aerith's profile in the manual says, there can't be one if both girls don't love the guy

Counter Argument #2.2: It's not that anyone is saying Aerith doesn't love Cloud, just that she loved him for his Zack like behavior and doesn't love him as much as Zack.

Me: I dunno:

Although in the beginning, Aerith felt close to Cloud because he behaves like Zack, her interest in Cloud himself grows and is attracted to him.

and

When Aerith thinks of Cloud and Zack's similarities, she sees that the present Cloud is not the real Cloud. Her meaningful lines like, "I'm searching for you" and "I want to meet you" all mean that she has discovered the existence of the real Cloud, although he's not aware of it himself

Makes it seem like to me that she wants to get to know the real Cloud. IF she was just chasing after some guy who was just like Zack, why would she want to get to know the real him?

-----------------------------

Counter Argument #3 Aerith was in denial over Zack's death! This proves she loves Zack more.. or something... I dunno I just wanted to address this.

Me: TBH I'm still not ENTIRELY convinced of this. Yes the ending of Crisis Core shows her reaction to his "death" and she can perceive other's deaths, but I'm not convinced that for some reason she couldn't perceive Zack had actually died. This quote:

At the time this story begins, Zack is already dead, but Aerith does not perceive/comprehend/know this truth.

sounds like she just doesn't know to me. But if someone can provide some explanation using the Japanese on why this means she was in denial, I'll be happy to hear it.

-----------------------------

You: What does any of this have to do with reviving Zack in the Lifestream?

Me: See my first point here. It's not like I expect her to go running around looking for Zack and reviving him right away and then hugging and kissing him. It's just the way some people make her seem, you'd think that she would But actually, my only point was that why doesn't Zack get a mention in CoLW if he is also her beloved? You'd think he would is all.

That's it.

That's all I've been trying to say. Is that a bit more clear now?

...

and if you can answer without swearing, caps and name calling, that'd be really nice.

 

[Vendel]

I would guess because she couldn't for some reason. Perhaps she didn't figure out how to do it.

Or Q. And stick with me here. IT NEVER FUCKING OCCURRED TO AERITH TO CONTACT CLOUD UNTIL SHE RAN INTO SEPHY.

Aerith loves Zack more than Cloud.

Fixed that for you.

 

[Celes Chere]

Tldr

it's just when people say she was obsessed with Zack

DUDE you were the one saying Aerith seemed obsessed! If I recall, we were arguing AGAINST that with you, rofl.

AND BY WE I MEAN CLOTIS. WE ARE SEPARATE FROM YOU CLERITH HOS.

 

[Dashell]

Or Q. And stick with me here. IT NEVER FUCKING OCCURRED TO AERITH TO CONTACT CLOUD UNTIL SHE RAN INTO SEPHY

and she STILL didn't do it until ACC! She must have waited for some reason or else she would have contacted him sometime probably BEFORE he ran away from home.

DUDE you were the one saying Aerith seemed obsessed! If I recall, we were arguing AGAINST that with you, rofl.

AND BY WE I MEAN CLOTIS. WE ARE SEPARATE FROM YOU CLERITH HOS.

lol, okay yeah you're right, I said they made it seem like she was obsessed and you were all like "lol, no." My bad there, I meant that it's just people make it seem like she loved Zack more and act like Cloud wasn't important... and blah blah read my post above. I really wish I could remember WTF I was talking about last week when I make these posts.

Aerith loves Zack more than Cloud.

That's it! I'm coming over there

 

[Vendel]

and she STILL didn't do it until ACC! She must have waited for some reason or else she would have contacted him sometime probably BEFORE he ran away from home.

We don't have a time line Q. Your assuming she ran into Sephy months or more before AC/C. When if we think about it, Sephys advent shows up what a week or two before the main events of the movie? So in all likelihood it was much closer to ACC than FFVII.

And it even says that she becomes worried about what she would say to him. And she had not worried FOR A LONG TIME.