The Morality Of The Planet And Jenova

[The Twilight Mexican]

In fairness, we don't *really* know what the planet would have done had Holy been able to stop Meteor. Aerith saved the day with the Lifestream in the end. If Holy hadn't already been all used up by that point, one would think there would have been no traces of Jenova left to create problems later.

 

[ForceStealer]

Jazzflower, I wouldn't think of the Planet as a character. It basically represents nature. Chaotic, acting on instinct. It is only interested in its own survival, true, but its made up of all the souls of every living thing. It can well be argued that needs of the Lifestream, the makeup of all forms of life, outweigh the needs of individuals, to paraphrase Spock.

@Tres, I do see the comparisons you're drawing, but I don't see how Jenova could another Planet's Omega because nothing she has ever done seems to show that she's BRINGING life somewhere. Or or that she brought anything with her. She just kills, I've never thought she was anything other than a spaceborne eldritch horror

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Planet seems to be a low level mentality Genius loci.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GeniusLoci

Stop tempting me with your brain crack.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Jenova's arrival always makes me think of "I'm Coming to Get You" by Tony Toss. If you don't know this story, you really need to watch all the way to the end for the punchline.

http://youtu.be/dYMMaV9eqz4

(PS I have once again forgotten how to embed youtube videos)

 

[jazzflower92]

Jazzflower, I wouldn't think of the Planet as a character. It basically represents nature. Chaotic, acting on instinct. It is only interested in its own survival, true, but its made up of all the souls of every living thing. It can well be argued that needs of the Lifestream, the makeup of all forms of life, outweigh the needs of individuals, to paraphrase Spock.

@Tres, I do see the comparisons you're drawing, but I don't see how Jenova could another Planet's Omega because nothing she has ever done seems to show that she's BRINGING life somewhere. Or or that she brought anything with her. She just kills, I've never thought she was anything other than a spaceborne eldritch horror

Think about this Jenova is the same thing as well because it acts a lot on instinct and acts chaotic. If one thinks about Jenova might be a deconstruction of the concept in general if that's the end game of it all. I mean after years of wandering she could have eventually become corrupted and no longer cares about life but death.

 

[ForceStealer]

But unless Tres' is right, Jenova doesn't support ANY life, merely death. The Planet is out for its own survival, but at least its survival benefits things.

 

[jazzflower92]

But unless Tres' is right, Jenova doesn't support ANY life, merely death. The Planet is out for its own survival, but at least its survival benefits things.

But if it traveled for too long it too would have eventually joined the Dark Side.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

^^That's never mentioned anywhere...

 

[jazzflower92]

^^That's never mentioned anywhere...

I was just saying it in a hypothetical sense if that was what happened. It certainly would make Jenova less of a Giant Space Flea From Nowhere.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GiantSpaceFleaFromNowhere

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Some of us prefer it that way.

 

[jazzflower92]

Some of us prefer it that way.

When you have a good mythology sometimes its needed to connect the dots together.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

But that's what make things more horrible and freaky. Things humans understand, they can name, and deal with, and know how to go against. Things humans don't understand they can't name, or know about, or contemplate how to deal with. And that's scary. It's much more scary to try and defeat something we can't understand or know about because we don't know what will work and what won't or... anything really.

And Jenova in a lot ways is that. We don't know what she is or where she comes from. We knows she wants to feed off of us. We know that she is not a source of life. That's one of the reasons why Hojo and Co. were studying her (at first). They want to know what she is.

In someways, the Lifestream, is this as well. But we know so much more about it then we do Jenova that it's a better bet then Jenova is. We might not like some of the choices the Lifestream makes, but we have a better understanding of it then we do Jenova, and therefore, it is not as horrible.

Non-FFVII example:
Think of a being that exists in the 4th dimension (time), the same way we as people exist in the 3rd dimension (depth). That is, as we as people are always existing in the 3rd dimension, it is always existing in the 4th dimension. At a fundamental level, we as people wouldn't be able to understand it. And that's really freaky.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

When you have a good mythology sometimes its needed to connect the dots together.

The fact that Jenova's origins are unexplained doesn't make her a Giant Space Flea from Nowhere. I mean, yeah, that's what she is, but not from a literary point of view. Her impact is seen, felt, and resonated throughout the entire narrative, unlike say, Necron who usually qualities for the title.

Unexplained things that are ultimately unknowable have been used in literature for all of writing, which considering that Jenova is more or less an expy of a Lovecraft horror (that the very fact that they are unexplained makes them terrifying and invincible), makes total sense.

 

[jazzflower92]

The fact that Jenova's origins are unexplained doesn't make her a Giant Space Flea from Nowhere. I mean, yeah, that's what she is, but not from a literary point of view. Her impact is seen, felt, and resonated throughout the entire narrative, unlike say, Necron who usually qualities for the title.

Unexplained things that are ultimately unknowable have been used in literature for all of writing, which considering that Jenova is more or less an expy of a Lovecraft horror (that the very fact that they are unexplained makes them terrifying and invincible), makes total sense.

Remember how FF7 is supposed to be the future of FF10 well that just shows there is probably a wider opportunity for world building out there beyond the planet. Jenova might be based on Lovecraft horror but what makes one think Omega couldn't become just like she is. Like Hawkeye said Omega could be considered a parasite to another planet.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Remember how FF7 is supposed to be the future of FF10 well that just shows there is probably a wider opportunity for world building out there beyond the planet. Jenova might be based on Lovecraft horror but what makes one think Omega couldn't become just like she is. Like Hawkeye said Omega could be considered a parasite to another planet.

The idea that every possibily has to be explained or explored outside the original work in fiction is a very damaging aspect of a lot of new games/movies/etc.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Jenova's arrival always makes me think of "I'm Coming to Get You" by Tony Toss. If you don't know this story, you really need to watch all the way to the end for the punchline.

http://youtu.be/dYMMaV9eqz4

That is fucking awesome. XD

But unless Tres' is right, Jenova doesn't support ANY life, merely death. The Planet is out for its own survival, but at least its survival benefits things.

When has Jenova actually been known to cause death, other than when Sephiroth was also involved? All Ifalna speaks of is mutation. Even geostigma is only death by human standards -- from an energy-based perspective, it's just conversion from one wavelength to another.

@Tres, I do see the comparisons you're drawing, but I don't see how Jenova could another Planet's Omega because nothing she has ever done seems to show that she's BRINGING life somewhere. Or or that she brought anything with her. She just kills, I've never thought she was anything other than a spaceborne eldritch horror

Which may be all that she is, and certainly makes for a more interesting story anyway. A Lovecraftian horror of nameless origin and uncertain vulnerabilities makes for a far more terrifying notion to me than something we can easily pin down in scientific terms.

However, the similarities are striking and I feel the notion is quickly and unfairly dismissed based on pre-conceived assumptions that lay outside the canon material -- e.g., "Jenova brings only death," "Jenova survives by absorbing Lifestream and has no means of establishing a self-sustaining system," etc.

Like the fandom assumption that hung around for years that Jenova was doing exactly the same thing as Lavos (they aren't even remotely similar beyond both being from space), these are ideas with some degree of sense behind them, and maybe you can see why it would he assumed if the canon was tilted the right away or there was established precedence related to the narrative, but none of that is the case.

Just like the Phantoms from The Spirits Within appeared to be space-born eldritch horrors until a very simple scientific explanation revealed otherwise, Jenova feasibly fits into their same mold. The similarities are more than a little striking.

Of course, that would make Jenova a less interesting terror than she currently is. As Mog said, this current need to exorcise all the mystery from literature is harmful both to the work and discussion of it. However, I'm not about to dismiss all the similarities just for that reason's sake. If anything, this kind of discussion is exactly the kind of thing we should have since the mystery has been left intact.

I like the Omega theory as long as it doesn't become canon.

 

[jazzflower92]

That is fucking awesome. XD



When has Jenova actually been known to cause death, other than when Sephiroth was also involved? All Ifalna speaks of is mutation.



Which may be all that she is, and certainly makes for a more interesting story anyway. A Lovecraftian horror of nameless origin and uncertain vulnerabilities makes for a far more terrifying notion to me than something we can easily pin down in scientific terms.

However, the similarities are striking and I feel the notion is quickly and unfairly dismissed based on pre-conceived assumptions that lay outside the canon material -- e.g., "Jenova brings only death," "Jenova survives by absorbing Lifestream and has no means of establishing a self-sustaining system," etc.

Like the fandom assumption that hung around for years that Jenova was doing exactly the same thing as Lavos (they aren't even remotely similar beyond both being from space), these are ideas with some degree of sense behind them, and maybe you can see why it would he assumed if the canon was tilted the right away or there was established precedence related to the narrative, but none of that is the case.

Just like the Phantoms from The Spirits Within appeared to be space-born eldritch horrors until a very simple scientific explanation revealed otherwise, Jenova feasibly fits into their same mold. The similarities are more than a little striking.

Of course, that would make Jenova a less interesting terror than she currently is. As Mog said, this current need to exorcise all the mystery from literature is harmful both to the work and discussion of it. However, I'm not about to dismiss all the similarities just for that reason's sake. If anything, this kind of discussion is exactly the kind of thing we should have since the mystery has been left intact.

I like the Omega theory as long as it doesn't become canon.

Maybe I'm just a little apathetic to the mystery part and more into the world building part. I think this gives a different view on how I think Jenova could be seen as or other possible theories about her. Then again there could be another type of horror that can come from that theory about Jenova being basically similar to Omega is the fact there are plenty of planets out there that could just become like she is if something bad happened. I think its all in how they execute it that will make it sell. For some strange reason I like to treat Jenova more than a plot device but an actual character with history.

Remember Gigyas the other famous Lovecraftian based bad guy well he had his backstory explained in MOTHER 1 and he still is terrifying to this day.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Oh, yeah, I can agree that it's a horrific thought that even FFVII's planet could become a Jenova-like entity. It's just better, I think, that this remain but one possibile explanation for Jenova.

We already know planets can become parasites in the FF cosmology. We've seen it several times, so it's not entirely necessary that she be another concrete example.

 

[jazzflower92]

Oh, yeah, I can agree that it's a horrific thought that even FFVII's planet could become a Jenova-like entity. It's just better, I think, that this remain but one possibile explanation for Jenova.

We already know planets can become parasites in the FF cosmology. We've seen it several times, so it's not entirely necessary that she be another concrete example.

I didn't realize how common parasitic planets were in the FF series. Though I liked to keep the " she was a corrupted goddess" idea because it could partially explain why Sephiroth wanted to become a god.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Oh, yeah, we've seen at least three parasitic planets in the series that come to mind off the top of my head -- in FFIX, The Spirits Within and FFIV: The After Years.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I didn't realize how common parasitic planets were in the FF series. Though I liked to keep the " she was a corrupted goddess" idea because it could partially explain why Sephiroth wanted to become a god.

Are the two necessarily mutually exclusive? The will of Gaia apparently forms itself as the Goddess Minerva. A dying planet that got twisted by its own emergency evacutation system.

Don't forget the planet from Spirit of the Crystals, Tres.

 

[Shademp]

The will of Gaia

Be very weary of calling the FFVII world by that name when I'm closeby.

- What is the name of FFVII's planet

Just to make sure everyone is up to date.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Are the two necessarily mutually exclusive? The will of Gaia apparently forms itself as the Goddess Minerva. A dying planet that got twisted by its own emergency evacutation system.

Don't forget the planet from Spirit of the Crystals, Tres.

Well put.

Also, so, yeah, there's at least four planets like that in Final Fantasy already. It certainly lends credence to the notion of Jenova being an Omega, but also makes it unnecessary that she serve as a point of exploration for the concept.

 

[jazzflower92]

Are the two necessarily mutually exclusive? The will of Gaia apparently forms itself as the Goddess Minerva. A dying planet that got twisted by its own emergency evacutation system.

Don't forget the planet from Spirit of the Crystals, Tres.

That sounds like a good theory to how Jenova could have come to be. Although it would make the FF7 universe a little more of a Crapsack World.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

or... none of these theories could be correct... Most of them (parasitic planets) came after FFVII anyways...