The Morality Of The Planet And Jenova

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
People dissolving into floating blobs of spirit energy did too, but that hasn't stopped it from at least fitting the established interrelated metaphysics. Hell, leaping tall buildings in a single bound wasn't anywhere in the original game either. :monster:

But, anyway, nobody's saying any of this *has to be fact*. It's fun to see what dots you can connect, though, and it would be silly not to ruminate over the possibilities when all those similarities -- between Jenova and Sin, between the Omega concept and The Spirits Within or FFIX, between Jenova and Sephiroth's style of assimilation and that of other planets, between one world's lifeboat and another world's parasite -- are smacking us in the face.
 

Novus

Pro Adventurer
Isn't it most likely Jenova is a dying planet/ Omega?

Perhaps it's hard to see in the original game, but they frigging added the concept into Dirge of Cerberus. What does the wave of souls do without a planet, than compromise the life stream of another.
If we take in the tale from the original game, Jenova steals the forms of others to deceive, this is clearly magic derived from the lifestream or the sea of memories from the dead.
(Going off topic here:)
I'm not sold it was the original idea, mainly because I believe Jenova Birth/ Life/ (all the palette swaps) model was Jenova's true form once it completely loses the last image it adopted. If you look at Jenova in the reactor, it's almost completely reverted back to what it was, only its head remains, and I believe that too would have converted back. Add the Jenova-Birth head and its complete.
Perhaps this is why they mistook it as a cetra, possibly the entire thing was human when they excavated it, and had the physique and attributes of one from Cetra (its form being one of the dead mothers Ifalna spoke of). They they realised what they were dealing with (or Gast did) when the tentacles appeared.

I think they could have made something a lot more abstract, if they wanted it to be a dead planet at this point rather than the Lovecraftian design (I've never read Lovecraft, but I'm told its an apt description).
Maybe something more in the Ozma variation.
...
It's an odd one.


Edit: I notice Hawk is active here, and now I think of it I read his faq to get back into the FF7 universe last year (or 2 years ago), so I may have been compromised also :scared: on the Spirits Within Jenova theory.
 
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jazzflower92

Pro Adventurer
AKA
The Girl With A Strong Opinion
Yeah, Jenova seems to be one of the biggest mysteries of the Final Fantasy 7 universe. And all fans are left with is possible clues lying around. I mean even her name Jenova wasn't originally her real name but given to her by the scientists that dug her up.
 

Novus

Pro Adventurer
Yeah, Jenova seems to be one of the biggest mysteries of the Final Fantasy 7 universe. And all fans are left with is possible clues lying around. I mean even her name Jenova wasn't originally her real name but given to her by the scientists that dug her up.


Good point, but isn't Jenova the God of the Ancients? In one of the drafts uploaded on this site I read that there was a book of Jenova. Maybe some of the ancients saw the figure as a God when he appeared as their dead mothers.

I'm going to watch The Thing prequel with my dad later, is it any good?
 

Knuxson

Pro Adventurer
Are the two necessarily mutually exclusive? The will of Gaia apparently forms itself as the Goddess Minerva. A dying planet that got twisted by its own emergency evacutation system.

Don't forget the planet from Spirit of the Crystals, Tres.

I find the theory that Jenova could be like a corrupted Minerva interesting. Is that why Minerva has sort of adopted Genesis? Now Minerva has her own "Sephiroth" to combat Jenova's Sephiroth?

Regardless if that is the case or not, I do not believe that this was the intent of the original writers. I prefer Jenova to stay the unfathomable menace from distant space that she was in the OG.
 

jazzflower92

Pro Adventurer
AKA
The Girl With A Strong Opinion
It makes me wonder if Sephiroth himself even knows what Jenova was before she came to the planet. Since its heavily implied that the two are in a symbiosis relationship with each other he might have picked up some knowledge from her past life.
 

Novus

Pro Adventurer
That was an early concept not included in the finished story.
.

I know, but it's interesting that it went from being a significant part of Cetra culture to being something Gast uniquely came up with when he needed a name for the organism. Couldn't it be something relating to his research on the Cetra?
Surely in a following drafts, the writer(s) made such a connection to the earlier one when they needed a name for the monster. That was my line of thinking on that issue anyway. There isn't anything official I believe, on where the name originated.
 
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Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
Be very weary of calling the FFVII world by that name when I'm closeby. :awesome:

- What is the name of FFVII's planet

Just to make sure everyone is up to date.

It's a convenient Shorthand, and a better name than we have for most FF worlds. Planet R, for example.

That sounds like a good theory to how Jenova could have come to be. Although it would make the FF7 universe a little more of a Crapsack World.

Not much more than it already is, really.

or... none of these theories could be correct... Most of them (parasitic planets) came after FFVII anyways...

Not all, though. The parasitic planet of LotC predates 7, and the Parasitic planet of TSW is explicitly based on the same metaphysics as FF7.
 

jazzflower92

Pro Adventurer
AKA
The Girl With A Strong Opinion
Yeah, the concept of Jenova went from just being a gene that humans and those of Cetra ancestry could tap into. Humans could awaken their jenova gene through the use of mako and in earlier versions the reason why Sephiroth went mad was because he got overdosed on mako which made his jenova gene overreact.
 

jazzflower92

Pro Adventurer
AKA
The Girl With A Strong Opinion
It was very...anime.

I like the planet-razing alien horror better :monster:

I don't know about you but Jenova is becoming my new favorite villain character in Final Fantasy 7. I mean of course Sephiroth is the main guy but she started it first and her son was just picking up where she left off. Morally I think Jenova works on a morality alien to humans but ironically is more in line with the planet's. She will do what is needed for survival even if it means wiping out an entire world.
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
She's more a plot device than a character. A good one, I'm just saying she's just a, well, virus, she doesn't have motivations or anything like that. Sephiroth doesn't REALLY seem to be picking up where she left off until Advent Children. Only then was he really channeling her (spreading a virus and moving onto the next planet).

This is still where I'm having some trouble comparing Jenova to Omega, Terra, and the like. Omega and Terra may well wipe out life on the Planet to insert their own Lifestream, but presumably, if they found an uninhabited world it would work just fine. Even if we're assuming Jenova spreads life at all, she seems to REQUIRE other life forms to infect and do it. (Omega also doesn't appear to bring the whole planet with him like Jenova apparently does.)
We also seem to be under the impression that Jenova has wrecked several worlds, but if she's just some other planet's Omega, that means she's spent millions of years on each one? That's not unbelievable or anything...but she went braindead from being a geological stratum for 2,000 years... Not that riding asteroids between planets would be a quick jaunt anyway...
 

jazzflower92

Pro Adventurer
AKA
The Girl With A Strong Opinion
She's more a plot device than a character. A good one, I'm just saying she's just a, well, virus, she doesn't have motivations or anything like that. Sephiroth doesn't REALLY seem to be picking up where she left off until Advent Children. Only then was he really channeling her (spreading a virus and moving onto the next planet).

This is still where I'm having some trouble comparing Jenova to Omega, Terra, and the like. Omega and Terra may well wipe out life on the Planet to insert their own Lifestream, but presumably, if they found an uninhabited world it would work just fine. Even if we're assuming Jenova spreads life at all, she seems to REQUIRE other life forms to infect and do it. (Omega also doesn't appear to bring the whole planet with him like Jenova apparently does.)
We also seem to be under the impression that Jenova has wrecked several worlds, but if she's just some other planet's Omega, that means she's spent millions of years on each one? That's not unbelievable or anything...but she went braindead from being a geological stratum for 2,000 years... Not that riding asteroids between planets would be a quick jaunt anyway...

Time is nothing to an ageless being like Jenova.
 

Knuxson

Pro Adventurer
She's more a plot device than a character. A good one, I'm just saying she's just a, well, virus, she doesn't have motivations or anything like that. Sephiroth doesn't REALLY seem to be picking up where she left off until Advent Children. Only then was he really channeling her (spreading a virus and moving onto the next planet).

This is still where I'm having some trouble comparing Jenova to Omega, Terra, and the like. Omega and Terra may well wipe out life on the Planet to insert their own Lifestream, but presumably, if they found an uninhabited world it would work just fine. Even if we're assuming Jenova spreads life at all, she seems to REQUIRE other life forms to infect and do it. (Omega also doesn't appear to bring the whole planet with him like Jenova apparently does.)
We also seem to be under the impression that Jenova has wrecked several worlds, but if she's just some other planet's Omega, that means she's spent millions of years on each one? That's not unbelievable or anything...but she went braindead from being a geological stratum for 2,000 years... Not that riding asteroids between planets would be a quick jaunt anyway...

I have heard this thing about Jenova being braindead while sealed away and Sephiroth kind of doing the thinking for the both of them after he falls into the reactor in Nibelheim. However, I can't remember anything in the OG, which I just played through again a couple of months ago, that shows or implies this. Does she influence Sephiroth at all in Nibelheim, or does his discovery of how he came to be just drive him crazy enough that he wants to be with his "mother"? Then after falling into the mako reactor and traveling the lifestream his will takes over the braindead Jenova and he decides he wants his purpose to be the same as hers was before she went braindead (use the planet as a vessel to travel space, etc.)? If you don't want to rehash the whole thing, can you point me to something explaining this?

I guess I always figured Jenova's malevolent personality/will still existed and she either corrupted Sephiroth's mind or they joined together in the same goal. Jenova is so interesting, especially considering that after playing through the game so many times she is still so mysterious.
 

jazzflower92

Pro Adventurer
AKA
The Girl With A Strong Opinion
You know what else Jenova and the planet have in common is their strong wills. It seems to be kind of similar to spiral energy from Gurren Laggan.
 

Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
Word of God has it that Sephiroth was mentally influenced by Jenova in Neibelheim, and it was only after he fell into the Lifestream that he got complete mental dominance over her. That was when he also absorbed all the information contained in the Lifestream, which would include what Jenova actually is.

One of the main reasons that I don't buy the idea that Jenova and Omega are similar is that Jenova has always been described as a living being with cells, DNA, the ability to behave like a virus, etc. But the Lifestream, and specifically mako have always been described as a type of energy, if one that has liquid/gaseous properties and that can crystallize. Given that the WEAPONs are made out of pure mako, they're not really "living" beings. They're pretty much really solid energy constructs.

What also has to do with this is that Jenova, for all that she is made out of biological material, is a very passive being. She doesn't really do anything until an opportunity comes to her, and even then, the only instinct she seems to follow is trying to survive and feed. WEAPONs (most of them) on the other hand are not passive once the Planet wakes them up. Ultimate, goes after Mideel, where a being with Jenova cells is. Diamond goes after Midgar where the Lifestream is getting destroyed. Sapphire goes after Junon, another area with a Mako reactor (and where Cloud is). Even in BC, Jade only goes after the Turks who destroyed Zicroniade. Omega is supposed to carry the Lifestream to a new planet if (and only if) enough life dies that the Lifestream can't grow anymore. Chaos is supposed to only wake up if Omega does and kill off the remaining life so that Omega can take as much Lifestream with it. (Headcanon)I kinda don't think Omega would just drift though space the way Jenova does, that seems to passive to me.
 

Novus

Pro Adventurer
So I saw the Thing 2011, and I got thinking about this stuff again.

If I start digging a hole outside, but I have an accident and then someone else takes over. And everyone claims, he has superseded me, but I just watch him continue to dig. It's not really any real difference is it, I still get what I want.

Other than p1ssing Cloud off, is there any real difference between the ultimate goal of Sephiroth and Jenny?
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
One of the main reasons that I don't buy the idea that Jenova and Omega are similar is that Jenova has always been described as a living being with cells, DNA, the ability to behave like a virus, etc. But the Lifestream, and specifically mako have always been described as a type of energy, if one that has liquid/gaseous properties and that can crystallize. Given that the WEAPONs are made out of pure mako, they're not really "living" beings. They're pretty much really solid energy constructs.

Wellll, this is where it gets complicated.

As far as the whole cycle of couls mythos is concerned, spirit energy seems to be the building block of everything. Even physical matter (think about the weapons Loz, Yazoo and Kadaj have). At least one Ultimania refers to the Weapons as "biological weaponry" -- i.e., alive. Think about the antibodies Vincent destroys inside Omega.

Along similar lines, the inhabitants of Dream Zanarkand in FFX -- despite being entirely composed of pyreflies like aeons -- are said in X-2's Ultimania Omega to have genes/DNA in a section addressing what connection there may be between Shuyin and Tidus. It mentions this because it's impying that Tidus was a descendant of Dream Zanarkand's version of Shuyin, and it explains their differences via the intermixing of genes over the preceding one thousand years.

The Ultimanias for X further detail that pyreflies permeate everything in Spira, including people's bodies. They explain that "Sin's Toxin" is actually an effect of Sin constantly sucking up ambient pyreflies -- even the ones in people. Those who come near Sin get lightheaded and sometimes get amnesia because Sin is tugging on their spirit energy, and may even pluck some of it away.

Sin essentially eats their memories/spirit energy. :monster:

This is also why Kinoc's body and those Guado in Bevelle explode into a burst of pyreflies when Seymour transforms into Seymour Natus and uses them for energy. Guado, who live closer to the planet's core than other races in Spira, are particularly keen to manipulating pyreflies (they're like Cetra), and Seymour was the greatest of them. He could literally pull a person's body apart into its component pyreflies.

Sin has a lot in common with both Jenova and the Weapons. Like the Weapons, it's a giant monster made up of spirit energy, yet still an organic creature. And like Jenova, it's got a lot of tentacles going on and it has a Reunion instinct with regard to its Sinspawn.

Really, the more I delve into it all, the more I'm convinced that were we to ever get an official explanation for Jenova, it would be that she was an Omega-like creature.

I don't want that to happen, mind you. But it makes far, far too much sense.

Obsidian said:
What also has to do with this is that Jenova, for all that she is made out of biological material, is a very passive being. She doesn't really do anything until an opportunity comes to her, and even then, the only instinct she seems to follow is trying to survive and feed. WEAPONs (most of them) on the other hand are not passive once the Planet wakes them up.

I would say it's more that these creatures follow whatever their programming is. Sin was programmed to keep eating pyreflies to keep itself going, to attack advanced technology, to wreck ships and to attack large settlements -- a directive aimed at keeping Dream Zanarkand's existence a secret and the place itself safe.

It was also programmed not to go too close to Dream Zanarkand so that its other programming wouldn't kick in and cause it to attack that city, like it does at the beginning of FFX. It was only supposed to go close enough to eat up some pyreflies.

The reason it attacked the city in FFX's opening is because Jecht exerted his willpower enough to override the programming about not getting close to the city. He was trying to set events in motion that would end with Tidus killing him.

You know the programming of FFVII's Weapons, so I won't go into that, but the point is: Who's to say Jenova didn't have a similar directive?
 
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Novus

Pro Adventurer
I'd forgotten completely about the Sin-Spawn scenario.
.

The reason I bought the Jenova/Spirits Within theory was because of this line from Advent Children.

What I want, Cloud, is to sail the cosmos with this planet as my vessel. Just as Mother did long ago. then one day we'll find a new planet and on it's soil we'll create a shining future.
And then Dirge of Ceberus was created within such close proximity, with the Omega mythology included within it. I suppose the Sin-Spawn does clear up quite a few discrepancies we might have with the Jenova reunion, and it wanting to piece together its original form.

Edit: And obviously Tidus has to have a biological system. Less Yuna wonder why Tidus tastes like a battery or whatever spirit energy tastes off.
 

Knuxson

Pro Adventurer
Word of God has it that Sephiroth was mentally influenced by Jenova in Neibelheim, and it was only after he fell into the Lifestream that he got complete mental dominance over her. That was when he also absorbed all the information contained in the Lifestream, which would include what Jenova actually is.

One of the main reasons that I don't buy the idea that Jenova and Omega are similar is that Jenova has always been described as a living being with cells, DNA, the ability to behave like a virus, etc. But the Lifestream, and specifically mako have always been described as a type of energy, if one that has liquid/gaseous properties and that can crystallize. Given that the WEAPONs are made out of pure mako, they're not really "living" beings. They're pretty much really solid energy constructs.

What also has to do with this is that Jenova, for all that she is made out of biological material, is a very passive being. She doesn't really do anything until an opportunity comes to her, and even then, the only instinct she seems to follow is trying to survive and feed. WEAPONs (most of them) on the other hand are not passive once the Planet wakes them up. Ultimate, goes after Mideel, where a being with Jenova cells is. Diamond goes after Midgar where the Lifestream is getting destroyed. Sapphire goes after Junon, another area with a Mako reactor (and where Cloud is). Even in BC, Jade only goes after the Turks who destroyed Zicroniade. Omega is supposed to carry the Lifestream to a new planet if (and only if) enough life dies that the Lifestream can't grow anymore. Chaos is supposed to only wake up if Omega does and kill off the remaining life so that Omega can take as much Lifestream with it. (Headcanon)I kinda don't think Omega would just drift though space the way Jenova does, that seems to passive to me.

Well, Jenova was not very passive when she first arrived, since she was actively killing ancients and everything before they sealed her away. And she wasn't very passive when Sephiroth entered the picture either, with him actively working to destroy the planet.
 

jazzflower92

Pro Adventurer
AKA
The Girl With A Strong Opinion
Well, Jenova was not very passive when she first arrived, since she was actively killing ancients and everything before they sealed her away. And she wasn't very passive when Sephiroth entered the picture either, with him actively working to destroy the planet.

Although she is a hungry beast she is also a clever hunter who is very persistent about devouring her prey. Also like some intelligent predators she will also hold a grudge against those who foiled her hunt.
 

Knuxson

Pro Adventurer
Although she is a hungry beast she is also a clever hunter who is very persistent about devouring her prey. Also like some intelligent predators she will also hold a grudge against those who foiled her hunt.

Hmm, are we given that information about her anywhere, or is that just people's best guess given the fact that she only speaks once and plays a backseat role to Sephiroth in the plot? Obviously, she is a very alien creature and it could be that she is entirely instinct driven. I guess I just always thought she was sentient, which a predator, even an intelligent one, is not (except humans). But I guess there really isn't any proof of sentience from what we see either. IDK, just kind of throwing out thoughts here.

EDIT: I just thought of something. Given the way Hojo describes the reunion theory, it sounds like she could be entirely instinct driven. But of course Hojo would likely describe anything as operating in a kind of mechanical way.
 

jazzflower92

Pro Adventurer
AKA
The Girl With A Strong Opinion
Hmm, are we given that information about her anywhere, or is that just people's best guess given the fact that she only speaks once and plays a backseat role to Sephiroth in the plot? Obviously, she is a very alien creature and it could be that she is entirely instinct driven. I guess I just always thought she was sentient, which a predator, even an intelligent one, is not (except humans). But I guess there really isn't any proof of sentience from what we see either. IDK, just kind of throwing out thoughts here.

EDIT: I just thought of something. Given the way Hojo describes the reunion theory, it sounds like she could be entirely instinct driven. But of course Hojo would likely describe anything as operating in a kind of mechanical way.

Going with the former goddess theory if she was one then I think it might tie in the fact that like the planet she has a will. Minerva is the personification of the earth's will so if Jenova was at one point just like her then it could have some conclusion that maybe she eventually was degraded into following on the instinct of her will.
 

Knuxson

Pro Adventurer
Going with the former goddess theory if she was one then I think it might tie in the fact that like the planet she has a will. Minerva is the personification of the earth's will so if Jenova was at one point just like her then it could have some conclusion that maybe she eventually was degraded into following on the instinct of her will.

Maybe. I don't really like that theory though since it would be a retcon as Minerva/goddess and Omega did not exist in the OG. I don't think the original writers had any of that in mind when they wrote the script for the OG. It is possible that they envisioned Jenova as a dead planet's will, I guess. But I don't find that very likely either. Have any of the developers talked about how the concept of Jenova came about? It would be very interesting to hear how they conceived of an alien life being involved in the story.
 
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