The OG+the Compilation

[looneymoon]

Tidus and Yuna were also written as star crossed lovers, but Nojima canonically broke them up in one of his novellas. I dont think it's a trope he holds particularly sacred.

This is the same guy that suggested that Cloud and Aerith would also have problems had she lived. Methinks this is just a dude who isn't a fan of straightforward "happily ever after" type romances in general.

 

[BlankBeat]

I just think it's weird that Cloud is continually shown seeking Aerith -- whether in flower fields or in cameos.

I guess it proves that a friend really loves his friend.

 

[LNK]

OK?

Advent Children reunion files was the book.

Right. I'm saying the Seventh Heaven family is being used to prove Cloti.

I don't think the Seventh Heaven family proves Cloti. I think it just shows that there is a couple, within a family. Your points don't prove that Cloti isn't real. If that were the case, my brother and his girlfriend weren't real while we lived together.

The lifestream scene proves a childhood crush.

The Highwind scene is variable. Even if the high affection version is canon, it is still variable. Variable evidence is inherently weaker evidence.

That childhood crush led to them being together though. And just because the HW scene is variable, doesn't make it non canon. Theo also shared the creators intent about that scene, either here or in the remake section.

Cloud wishes it was Aerith reaching for him at the end of the game.

Cloud seeks Aerith. Tifa gets jealous.

Cloud obviously prefers Aerith. Even Tifa knows this to be true.

Right. Cloud felt grief due to letting the woman he loved die.

None of that proves he wanted to be with her over Tifa though

 

[LNK]

I just think it's weird that Cloud is continually shown seeking Aerith -- whether in flower fields or in cameos.

I guess it proves that a friend really loves his friend.

That's not weird for everyone though. I have a friend who I would react the same way towards, if she was murdered in front of my eyes. Especially if it happened like it did in FF7.

 

[looneymoon]

The romantic depiction of Cloud and Aerith's relationship doesn't overwrite the fact that she's... dead. In fact, that is the point. There can never be closure never between them. It's not unlike in real life. Sometimes two people can have a strong feeling for each other, maybe even fall madly in love, but circumstances prevent it from amounting to anything but a feeling. It then continues to exist only as a what if scenario in their minds.

That thought of what could've been isnt an indication of "preference" over a current partner. Cloud and Tifa are explicitly portrayed as a struggling couple. This is the character drama of Advent Children. We, as an audience, are meant to be invested in this. The writers want us to like them, and assume we do, as it is a sequel. The end of the movie shows them both having a happy ending. The only reasonable conclusion you can draw from this is that their rough patch is behind them, and everything is going to be okay.

Cloud in the flower fields shows that he can move on, unburdened by his memory. He can still remember Aerith, but he can do so happily now, as he has put his guilt behind him. He's back with his family, no longer brooding alone and contemplating death. If Cloud is forever "searching" for Aerith, how is that a resolution for his character arc as depicted in the movie? How is it an ending where we are also supposed to feel happy for Tifa? Reading it as them breaking up while he's off searching for Aerith isn't in line with the payoff at the end. It doesn't fit with the ending's tone, and doesn't really make sense considering everything.

Plus, if Cloud ends the movie living in a completely one-sided relationship with a woman he: a) knows is completely devoted to him, and b) raises children with... that's not exactly the most favorable depiction of the guy. If that was really the type of character he was, then I would say that the happy ending given to him would be a very unearned resolution. I would also criticize the writers for allowing that kind of behaviour to go unexamined, if that was the type of story they were trying to tell. It isn't though, and I can say that because we are meant to feel happy for Tifa too. The audience is meant to be just as invested in Tifa's happiness as much as Cloud's.

Advent Children has... issues, but it understands the places it wants to take its characters. For Cloud, it's coming home. Which character is it that has always represented home for him?

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

This is the same guy that suggested that Cloud and Aerith would also have problems had she lived. Methinks this is just a dude who isn't a fan of straightforward "happily ever after" type romances in general.

Nojima is a realist. It's one of the things I like most about his writing: he infuses fantasy with emotional realism.

Any relationship that lasts for any length of time is going to have problems. Having problems doesn't mean the people involved don't love each other.

No doubt Cloud did feel romantically attracted to Aerith for a while, and if she'd lived, who knows how things might have panned out. But she died, and he's with Tifa now.

 

[BlankBeat]

Advent Children reunion files was the book.

I don't know what the book says.

I don't think the Seventh Heaven family proves Cloti. I think it just shows that there is a couple, within a family. Your points don't prove that Cloti isn't real. If that were the case, my brother and his girlfriend weren't real while we lived together.

I'm saying the family can't be used as evidence to support Cloti because 1. Barret is a member 2. Marlene is Barrent's daughter and 3. Cloud believes Denzel was brought to him by Aerith.

That childhood crush led to them being together though. And just because the HW scene is variable, doesn't make it non canon. Theo also shared the creators intent about that scene, either here or in the remake section.

The childhood crush led them to being together in a variable scene.

Even if the high affection version is "canon," it is still inherently variable, which makes it inherently weaker evidence.

Regardless, Cloud still wishes it was Aerith reaching for him at the end of FFVII, which occurs AFTER the Highwind scene.

None of that proves he wanted to be with her over Tifa though

So I guess Tifa is jealous for no reason at all. SE wants us to think she's insecure and delusional. Got it.

That's not weird for everyone though. I have a friend who I would react the same way towards, if she was murdered in front of my eyes. Especially if it happened like it did in FF7.

So why doesn't SE show Barret of Vincent or Cid (ie: Aerith's friends) reuniting with Aerith in flower fields?

Why is it always Cloud (ie: the man she is in a love triangle with) that is always shown reuniting with Aerith in flower fields?

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@looneymoon

Aerith is dead in a fantasy world where the Promised Land exists. A fantasy world where Aerith can reach out and grab Cloud's hand. A fantasy world where Cloud and Aerith can reunite, back-to-back, in flower fields.

Yes -- Aerith is dead. But this is a fantasy world.

Also -- of course Aerith is dead. She is a star-crossed lover. I guess you could argue that Tifa "wins" by default due to the fact that Aerith is dead. What a sad way to "win."

Point is -- I have heard casual Cloti fans say that if Aerith lives in the Remake, Cloud won't end up with Tifa. I think that is 100% accurate.

Do you honestly think Cloud would end up with Tifa if Aerith lives?

To me, the hand reach scene always proved that Cloud wants to be with Aerith but has to settle for his second choice due to the curse of star-crossed lovers.

The reasonable conclusion I reach is that Cloud is seen driving through flower fields stated to represent Aerith.

These flower fields are stated to be the place Cloud is "supposed to be."

Cloud may "move on" and live with Tifa, but deep down, he always wants to be with Aerith more (hint: that's why Tifa is jealous).

Rose moves on from Jack in "Titanic." She even marries another guy.

But at the end of the movie she reunites with Jack inside the Titanic.

Soulmates are soulmates. Tifa just can't compete with star-crossed lovers who are tied together through destiny.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I don't believe in soulmates and I'm pretty sure the person who created Cloud, Aerith and Tifa doesn't believe in them either.

 

[LNK]

I don't know what the book says.

I didnt either, until I read it.

I'm saying the family can't be used as evidence to support Cloti because 1. Barret is a member 2. Marlene is Barrent's daughter and 3. Cloud believes Denzel was brought to him by Aerith.

Why do each of those points prove that that family cant be used as evidence?

So why doesn't SE show Barret of Vincent or Cid (ie: Aerith's friends) reuniting with Aerith in flower fields?

Those characters didn't have the same feelings towards Aerith, that Cloud did. While my brother is friends with my friend, if she was killed, his reaction wouldn't be like mine.

People react to loss differently from eachother.

 

[looneymoon]

@honeymoon

Despite you... not addressing anything I said, this was the kicker that made me really feel sassed at

I would argue that the idea of soul mates is concept that doesn't hold much weight with Nojima, given his treatment of Tidus and Yuna, as well as Cloud with either Tifa or Aerith.

Everything you say about Cloud "really wanting" Aerith reeks of a lot of projection. Once again, how does your reading of Advent Children make sense if Tifa's is shown getting a happy ending as well - and she is a character we are supposed to like and root for? You can't really compare her to some random dude we never see in the Titanic movie.

 

[BlankBeat]

I didnt either, until I read it.

I haven't read it.

Why do each of those points prove that that family cant be used as evidence?

It isn't a romantic family. It is the Seventh Heaven family that existed pre-Cloud.

How does this family support Cloti?

Those characters didn't have the same feelings towards Aerith, that Cloud did. While my brother is friends with my friend, if she was killed, his reaction wouldn't be like mine.

People react to loss differently from eachother.

I'm confused.

Cloud is shown in the flower fields with Aerith. No other person is shown in the flower fields with Aerith. But you want me to believe there is nothing special about the fact that Cloud is the one shown reuniting in the flower fields with Aerith?

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@looneymoon

If flower fields are the place Cloud is "supposed to be," and he is shown riding through flower fields stated to represent Aerith at the end of AC/C, logic suggests.... he is supposed to be with Aerith.

Sure -- Cloud may be with Tifa by default due to Aerith being a star-crossed lover.

But Cloud would have ended up with Aerith if she had lived. And Tifa is jealous of Cloud's continued feelings for Aerith because she knows, deep down, that she is 2nd place to Aerith.

 

[looneymoon]

@looneymoon

If flower fields are the place Cloud is "supposed to be," and he is shown riding through flower fields stated to represent Aerith at the end of AC/C, logic suggests.... he is supposed to be with Aerith.

Sure -- Cloud may be with Tifa by default due to Aerith being a star-crossed lover.

But Cloud would have ended up with Aerith if she had lived. And Tifa is jealous of Cloud's continued feelings for Aerith because she knows, deep down, that she is 2nd place to Aerith.

That's a really weird way to describe Tifa's happy ending

 

[LNK]

She is a star-crossed lover.

Your opinion.

Do you honestly think Cloud would end up with Tifa if Aerith lives

I do. I don't think Aerith could do what Tifa did in the lifestream.

deep down, he always wants to be with Aerith more

I don't remember that being stated in the game, AC or OTWTAS.

 

[LNK]

I haven't read it.

You should read it! I recently ordered a copy off of eBay

It isn't a romantic family. It is the Seventh Heaven family that existed pre-Cloud.

How does this family support Cloti?

Well, we know C&T had a difficult (realistic) relationship. Also, the ending of ACC lead us to believe the two get back together, as Looney has been saying. The Reunion Files also state that as well.

Cloud is shown in the flower fields with Aerith. No other person is shown in the flower fields with Aerith. But you want me to believe there is nothing special about the fact that Cloud is the one shown reuniting in the flower fields with Aerith?

I'm just saying that doesn't prove he would rather be with Aerith over Tifa. If he really would rather be with her, he'd be a shitty person to do that to Tifa. Which would go against the ending of ACC. (Like Looney also said)

 

[BlankBeat]

Pictures speak a thousand words.

In Dissidia, Cloud returns to where he is "supposed" to be -- a flower field.

The symbolism is undeniable.

Tifa may "win" by default due to Aerith being dead.

But just like Jack and Rose reunite at the very end of "Titanic," Cloud and Aerith will one day reunite in the Promised Land -- and it will likely include a flower field -- the place Cloud is "supposed" to be.

 

[Master Bates]

What a shitty story.

 

[LNK]

Pictures speak a thousand words.

I can post pictures like that of Tifa.

In Dissidia, Cloud returns to where he is "supposed" to be -- a flower field

Dissidia is not apart of the compilation

Tifa may "win" by default due to Aerith being dead.

That's a weird way to look at love. Its not a competition

Cloud and Aerith will one day reunite in the Promised Land -- and it will likely include a flower field -- the place Cloud is "supposed" to be.

That's cool that you believe that. I believe Cloud and Tifa live happily ever once he forgives himself during the end of ACC. I wouldn't be surprised if they had kids of their own

 

[BlankBeat]

People are so salty.

 

[Master Bates]

Not salty. Just calling it as it is.

Your interpretation is shitty because it treats one if its main characters like shit.

 

[BlankBeat]

As Cait Sith says "Poor Tifa!"

 

[LNK]

Tifa got what she wanted, so I don't think she needs any pity from Cait Sith

 

[Master Bates]

As if that single offhand comment of a clueless robot encompasses the entirety of Tifa and her character arc.

Although in retrospect, I guess your interpretation makes sense because not once in your numerous comments did it ever feel like Tifa is treated as a character. Not even Jenova is ever treated humiliatingly by Shinra the way you treat Tifa. She was never a character to you; she is nothing but an obstacle. That's probably the most tragic thing in this debate, more tragic than Aerith's character dying.

 

[Aurenare]

But just like Jack and Rose reunite at the very end of "Titanic,"

Since this keeps being used as "fact":

She was a big fan of the slightly enigmatic ending, as I recall. Was old Rose still alive and dreaming of Jack, or had she died and gone to be reunited with him in Titanic heaven? We had a long talk about that.

Source

We PAN OFF the last picture to Rose herself, warm in her bunk. A profile shot. She is very still. She could be sleeping, or maybe something else.

Source.

Rose and Jack may or may not reunite at the end of Titanic. Not even James Cameron has a definitive answer to that, leaves it open to interpretation. The reunion is just a theory. Like the theory that says the whole Jack story was just made up by Rose.

Sorry for the off topic contribution, but this BS argument comparison has been brought up too many times and never addressed as the fallacy it is.

 

[BlankBeat]

@Master Bates

Winning cuz the other person died isn't really winning.

I guess it's OK to treat Aerith like shit. She moves on from Zack. She dies. And yet -- she isn't entitled to her own happy ending with Cloud. Weird.

If this is a love triangle that is up to player interpretation, you are free to view Cloud as living a happy and fulfilling life with Tifa.

But given that this is a love triangle, I'm also free to believe that Cloud's heart will always belong to Aerith, and that they will one day reunite in the Promised Land.

Cloud is "supposed" to be in a flower field -- with Aerith. That is an entirely valid interpretation. You only think it's "shitty" because it differs from yours.

At the end of the day, SE probably wants every person to decide for themselves: does Cloud love Aerith? Or does he love Tifa?

I'm simply providing evidence to support that Cloud loves Aerith and you simply can't handle it.

Well -- it is a LOVE TRIANGLE, buddy. So deal with it. That's the story -- a love triangle. Accept it or not. The choice is yours.

Luckily, SE lets all of us choose who Cloud loves. And I feel as though it is obvious that his #1 pick is Aerith and his #2 pick is Tifa.

Marlene: "I won't tell Tifa!"

Cait Sith: "Poor Tifa!"

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@Aurenare



^That is the ending scene of "Titanic."

Of course James Cameron is going to leave everything up to interpretation to fuel discussion about his movie.

But the point is -- Rose's heart forever belongs to Jack. Always has. Always will.

No matter if Rose moved on to someone new, her heart always stayed with Jack. Just like Cloud's heart will always stay with Aerith.

So sure -- you can interpret the ending however you want. But Rose's heart stayed with Jack even though they only knew each other for a few days. That's the entire point of star-crossed lovers.

Funny -- SE seems to leave lots up to interpretation just like James Cameron.

Yet I'm told my interpretation is "shitty" even though both creators purposely leave things up for interpretation. Weird how that works.

 

[Aurenare]

You do you. To me, Titanic is the 11 yo's girl interpretation of what love is supposed to be like. The girl that then grew up, experienced life and REAL love and got pissed at Rose for diminishing the life she got with her husband and children for a fuck boy she knew for less than a week. Even in fantasy, she comes out as a selfish bitch by my book.