The rebuild of Nibelheim? (Crisis Core Spoilers)

[Cat Rage Room]

What is national, anyway? There aren't any nations. Except maybe Wutai, and that's not a nation anymore. And while Banora apples only grow in that region, they weren't simply limited to the town. Genesis always had one, and they ate them at the end, so the exports may not have ever stopped. Maybe just interrupted for a bit.

That's what the game said; National Banora something (agricultural?) Contest. It's in an old note that Zack can read in the Banora underground. And no, I'm sure they weren't limited to the town, but if the town, which contained the farmers, the shipping equipment and information, and etc was bombed to ruins, who else would export them? I'm sure someone could just go to that area and pick one, but large scale shipping?

And while Wutai was beat down, I don't think they surrendered their status as a sovereign nation. They just couldn't tout it around anymore. Japan went through something similar after World War II.

 

[Channy]

Well I get that, my main pet peeve with this how could they link Sephiroth and Shinra to the burning of the town? All that's left is just a torched village and dead bodies.. what evidence exactly could link anybody who investigates it to Sephiroth specifically?

Yes I know I'm being a pain with this but I need to know.

 

[Ⓐaron]

Probably the fact that a lot of people were clearly gutted with the Masamune, at a guess.

 

[ForceStealer]

That's what the game said; National Banora something (agricultural?) Contest. It's in an old note that Zack can read in the Banora underground.

I know, I wasn't questioning you, I was just asking what's a nation in FF7 anyway? I'm not sure about Wutai for that very reason, even if they did surrender their status as a sovereign nation, what nation would they have become a part of? Shinra runs the entire planet, is there any point to having nations? But I realize we actually had an old thread about this already.

And I suppose that depends on the forensic skills of Gaia. I would imagine anything advanced would belong to Shinra. I also guess that Sephiroth started the fire with magic, I dunno if there would be some forensic method of determining that.

 

[Meteo]

Well I get that, my main pet peeve with this how could they link Sephiroth and Shinra to the burning of the town? All that's left is just a torched village and dead bodies.. what evidence exactly could link anybody who investigates it to Sephiroth specifically?

Yes I know I'm being a pain with this but I need to know.

Probably the fact that a lot of people were clearly gutted with the Masamune, at a guess.

Not to mention it was well known that Sephiroth was leading a mission in the Nibelheim mountains, and then immediately after the town is destroyed, Sephiroth goes missing and is never heard from again. Very legitimate and compelling suspicions there. Also the pervasive devastation of Nibelheim could only be associated with a level of power that no one but Sephiroth (and by association, Shinra) possessed.

 

[Channy]

Hrm.. You're lighting my memory with some of those points, but Forcestealer also brings up a good point about the fire probably just being started with a few fire spells.. Couldn't anybody do that with enough Materia?

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I know, I wasn't questioning you, I was just asking what's a nation in FF7 anyway? I'm not sure about Wutai for that very reason, even if they did surrender their status as a sovereign nation, what nation would they have become a part of? Shinra runs the entire planet, is there any point to having nations? But I realize we actually had an old thread about this already.

Well, I don't know. FF7 is very disorganized in that aspect. I guess in the question of Wutai, they wouldn't have to become absorbed to lose their status as a nation, hypothetically. They'd just relinquish their status to call themselves such. But I don't think that happened, but they don't call themselves the Empire of Wutai anymore, though.

And I suppose that depends on the forensic skills of Gaia. I would imagine anything advanced would belong to Shinra. I also guess that Sephiroth started the fire with magic, I dunno if there would be some forensic method of determining that.

The old AVALANCHE had their shit together, so I guess some people have some stuff.

 

[ForceStealer]

Forcestealer also brings up a good point about the fire probably just being started with a few fire spells.. Couldn't anybody do that with enough Materia?

Well, probably Firaga, which is far more explosive. The houses and such would have shown more scatter and debris then just a straight-up fire would. And only people with advanced materia would have been able to cast it.

 

[Channy]

Yeah, but it's not like powerful Mages out there couldn't do it.

 

[Meteo]

Hrm.. You're lighting my memory with some of those points, but Forcestealer also brings up a good point about the fire probably just being started with a few fire spells.. Couldn't anybody do that with enough Materia?

Yes, but who was the only one in possession of any offensive magic materia? Sephiroth. If you remember the flashback Cloud recalls in Kalm, when he was riding in the transport truck with Sephiroth, he was elated that he was finally given materia to use in battle. One materia, a lowly 'preemptive' independent materia that has no offensive magic abilities whatsoever, and he was in SOLDIER First Class, the top rank in SOLDIER, and the best materia available to him is a 'preemptive'. In those days, I reckon materia was much rarer and its distribution more strictly regulated, especially within the ranks of SOLDIER. Sephiroth would have been the only one in possession of any fire materia, and the only one capable of using it to the extent that was seen. I'd say it would take while to burn the entire town to the ground using level 1 fire spells.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Yes, but who was the only one in possession of any offensive magic materia? Sephiroth. If you remember the flashback Cloud recalls in Kalm, when he was riding in the transport truck with Sephiroth, he was elated that he was finally given materia to use in battle. One materia, a lowly 'preemptive' independent materia that has no offensive magic abilities whatsoever, and he was in SOLDIER First Class, the top rank in SOLDIER, and the best materia available to him is a 'preemptive'. In those days, I reckon materia was much rarer and its distribution more strictly regulated, especially within the ranks of SOLDIER. Sephiroth would have been the only one in possession of any fire materia, and the only one capable of using it to the extent that was seen. I'd say it would take while to burn the entire town to the ground using level 1 fire spells.

This theory is moot considering that in Crisis Core Materia is given away like candy to all of SOLDIER.

 

[ForceStealer]

Well, Crisis Core paints a different picture of materia use. But even so, I would wager that a Firaga spell was NOT commonly encountered.

 

[Channy]

Not to mention Materia fusion which makes even greater/stronger Materia in CC.

 

[Ⓐaron]

Well, Crisis Core paints a different picture of materia use. But even so, I would wager that a Firaga spell was NOT commonly encountered.

Pretty much. Though Square is kind of dumb for retconning that, I still doubt that Firaga spells were available to most of SOLDIER.

But even still, it doesn't really matter because if memory serves, Sephiroth wasn't exactly careful about covering up the people who died from stabwounds, and there are only a few blades in the entire world that could make stabwounds like the Masamune could. So even if the fire's origins as magical could've implicated everyone, the sword wounds couldn't have.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Well, Crisis Core paints a different picture of materia use.

This is Crisis Core:

"Looks like you've successfully completed that mission of wiping out Mandragoras from that deserted island! Here's an Ultima Materia for your trouble! Go out and be somebody!"

 

[Meteo]

This theory is moot considering that in Crisis Core Materia is given away like candy to all of SOLDIER.

Crisis Core is moot. It's a massive retcon. A couple years ago, you'd probably have agreed with me.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Of course I would have (seriously, it's a good point), but thangs change.

 

[Channy]

This is Crisis Core:

"Looks like you've successfully completed that mission of wiping out Mandragoras from that deserted island! Here's an Ultima Materia for your trouble! Go out and be somebody!"

xD omfg..

Crisis Core is moot. It's a massive retcon. A couple years ago, you'd probably have agreed with me.

Yeah but this is now, so CC ruins all our theories.

 

[ForceStealer]

Even if it is, I'm not sure Cloud's memory could be trusted as to which materia he thought he brought with him.

 

[Meteo]

I think in this instance, the accuracy of Cloud's memory is overshadowed by the fact that it's how the story itself was structured. Nomura and others put that particular materia in the flashback and designed that particular scene to make a statement about materia in general, and about the enormus difference in power between Sephiroth and the next best thing: a first class SOLDIER. A difference in power shown by a difference in equipped materia and all abilities therein. I think it was meant to establish a standard, because at that point in the story, there wasn't even a hint about Cloud's true past and how he was actually pretending to be Zack and using his memories. Which leads me to believe that what he recalls is true, only in reality it was Zack acting excited about receiving materia, and Cloud merely overheard it.

 

[Ⓐaron]

I think Cloud's memory issues don't really matter that much in light of the fact that people are still going to notice that people have giant gaping stab wounds in them made by a man who can impale a fucking Midgardsormr. The Masamune is so sharp that on its own the incisiveness of the wounds would stand out. There's no way an average grunt could do something like that. It would be obvious that they came from Sephiroth or someone equally powerful, and thus Shinra would be implicated simply by forensics on the corpses. Pretending shit never happened and thus forestalling the possibility of an investigation was clearly the least risky course of action for them.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Couldn't they just dispose the bodies?

 

[Ⓐaron]

If they did that people would get suspicious, because it's unlikely people would believe that everyone who lived in the town died in a fire.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Which leads me back to Banora...

 

[Channy]

It's just one vicious circle..