Theory Videos and other interesting shit

[S.L.Kerrigan]

Point I'm making is things that live, are meant to die. That includes planets. If a planet is unnaturally kept alive through forceful means, there's probably a horrible consequence of such subversion of the cycle of souls. Even if we're to take Sephiroth's desire to "save the planet" at face value, chances are, the planet is meant to die. It reached it's end. It's supposed to recycle it's spirit energy via Omega, join whatever cycle that exists within the cosmos, and restart anew in a new host planet. Sephiroth trying to prevent that because he doesn't want the planet to ever end, is not right. I don't think his intention is noble or pure at all here. Planets don't live forever.

Excuse me if I'm wrong, but are you suggesting that the planet might have reached the end of its life (some time ago) and been forced to stay alive? If so, what force, what means were used? Couldn't the refusal of the Cetras to continue the migration be this delaying factor?
In this case Jenova could simply be a means used to force the departure (failure). And then Sephiroth as well from her legacy.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Are the Cetra capable of moving from one planet to another?

 

[Makoeyes987]

Excuse me if I'm wrong, but are you suggesting that the planet might have reached the end of its life (some time ago) and been forced to stay alive? If so, what force, what means were used? Couldn't the refusal of the Cetras to continue the migration be this delaying factor?
In this case Jenova could simply be a means used to force the departure (failure). And then Sephiroth as well from her legacy.

I have no idea where you came up with that. I'm not saying that. I think the planet is dying on it's own due to reaching the end of it's lifespan and Sephiroth has a scheme to prolong it's existence.

Are the Cetra capable of moving from one planet to another?

No. No they are not.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

That's what I thought, but then I don't really understand S.L.Kerrigan's question.

 

[TurquoiseHammer]

I'm a big fan of Sleepezi's videos. I love the production value, the music, the due diligence. Even if I don't fully agree with the central thesis, I always walk away having learned something new and with my outlook on the series at least a little bit changed. He's very articulate and organizes his argument well. I never get the feeling anything's being shoved down my throat, which I appreciate.

Sleepezi and I already talked a bit about how the 2005 Ultimania Omega is the biggest obstacle to theories about Jenova having any willpower over Sephiroth. It takes the most hardline stance about who's controlling whom:

P. 213:
"Sephiroth’s case is exceedingly unique. Despite boasting legendary strength, he lived as an ordinary human up until learning the secret behind his birth five years ago. At that point, he began to walk a different path from humans. However, he didn’t fall under Jenova’s sway but rather seized control and assumed command over her actions. This fact gives us a sense of the extraordinary strength the lifeform known as Sephiroth possesses."

I think there is some argument to be made that the writers have slowly softened their position here, presenting Sephiroth's ascent to "godhood" as a sort of fusion with Jenova's goals (though I don't have a good writeup to demonstrate this). Is it possible this could be taken even one step further in Remake, where there's some event that caused Sephiroth to want to detach from Jenova and her legacy in the Lifestream? Or could they do a complete 180 and say Sephiroth only thought he'd gained control? I think people's response to these scenarios will correlate to how committed they are to the original lore and how rigid they think the writers are about keeping that lore unchanged. I'm pretty flexible as far as that stuff goes, and open to major rewrites and experimentation where other people would brook no argument about altering the canon.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

While I wouldn't say anything is possible in the Remake, I do think a great many things are.
Like I said, I don't know if Jenova can even be said to have "goals" in the sense that a human has goals. As far as I understand it, Jenova travels from planet to planet in the same way that malaria passes from person to person; it consumes a planet's spirit energy, leaves it a dry husk, and then in some way moves on. Whether it has chosen this lifestyle from its own free will or has simply evolved into a mindless space-voyaging parasite seems to be a moot point. At one point Sephiroth did say he wanted to sail the cosmos using the planet as his vessel, which seems to align with Jenova's life-cycle (if I can call it that), but whether this is a sign that Jenova's "will" was getting the upper hand, or simply the kind of thing any god-like being would want to do... well your guess is as good as mine.

 

[Eerie]

I've been rethinking about chapter 18. I think that rather than Jenova being in control, it may be her behind the Harbingers (honestly not 100% on that one), but if so, she would be acting upon Sephiroth's will. These Harbingers *could* be the ones from the Lifestream Black, and they would fight the party because they want another ending.

Now, not all the Lifestream is corrupted, she and Sephiroth are pretty much hiding in a corner, as far as we know it. And I think it's only through Sephiroth once he joined it that the Lifestream started to get corrupted because beforehand Jenova was pretty much a prisonner of some Cetra's spell. Aerith has not yet realised when Remake started that Sephiroth was acting. I'm pretty sure she felt that something was wrong with the Lifestream but couldn't tell what until Cloud spoke of Sephiroth.

but are you suggesting that the planet might have reached the end of its life (some time ago)

As I understand it - and think Mako presented it? - the Planet also has a life to live and such life will end at some point. Mako was just drawing a comparison. This is why chapter 18 and Sephiroth are *very* misleading; Sephiroth is the only life form on this Planet to refuse to die and let go. And now he is stuck on a Planet at the end of its course; so what does he do? He tries to go back in time to try to get some more time. But the OG timeline is supposed to be the "good" timeline; it's the one protected by the whispers. It's the one where they manage to save the Planet, and humans learn to live with the Planet. Then it goes its course and ends up dying. Sephiroth is stuck in place and time 7 seconds before its death, and as he is very egoistic, he wants MORE. Which would be a bad outcome. Aerith believes he wants more by killing humanity, which would give more power to the Lifestream and prevent the Planet's energy to deplete too fast.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Let me point out.

Jenova profile from the FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania.

"A life form from another planet, which arrived on the planet on a meteorite approx. 2000 years ago. While it is not yet completely clear what it truly is, it is extremely intelligent and has the ability to mimic any other living being. It has an instinctive drive to destroy planets, and is a highly dangerous entity, so as the ‘Calamity from the Sky’ it was sealed by the Ancients. It was excavated by the ShinRa Company and used as a valuable basis of living body experiments, but together with Sephiroth who was created by those experiments it once again came back into action to destroy the planet. Even though most of its physical body was lost during the Jenova War its malevolent will remains, lurking in the Lifestream."

Now, read Sephiroth's 10th Anniversary Ultimania profile.

In Final Fantasy VII

Born into the ShinRa Company as “Jenova’s son”,
A fallen hero who inherited Jenova’s will to destroy the Planet.

Believed to have died five years ago in the Nibel Mako Reactor, he suddenly appeared in the ShinRa Building and murdered President ShinRa. He claimed to be heading towards “The Promised Land”, and guided Cloud to the Northern Crater. He synthesized with Jenova’s cells to complete his revival, his goal was to control the Planet by means of directing the ultimate destructive magic Meteor towards it, but Cloud and company put an end to his plans.

Appearing more than 2000 years ago riding on a meteorite “The Calamity from the Skies” – Jenova. Her very existence is to takeover planets and “Mother’s” dreadful ambition, her “son” Sephiroth has set out to achieve.

— Nibelheim
The place here Sephiroth ceased to be human, and took upon himself the role of an agent of Jenova. This is also his birthplace.

It's pretty clear like I said, that Sephiroth has inherited Jenova's destructive instincts and will to destroy planets.

However, that does not subordinate him to that creature or it's will. He is an evolution of Jenova. He is the successor of it's species and intentions. That means, while he's in control, he's also following a path that lines up with what it's end goal would be. Which is planetary destruction.

This is the canon position, but it definitely doesn't leave Jenova as a non-participant. It is what influenced Sephiroth and nudged him away from humanity and towards the destructive demigod he is now. But Sephiroth is the one in control of his actions. He merely inherited Jenova's intentions to carry on it's mission of destruction.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Well, Jenova's clearly not that intelligent, otherwise it would have had a sit-down and a good think about exactly what the purpose of its life was, and would have come to realisation that endlessly travelling through the universe devouring planets for no reason except that you can is a pretty futile way to live. Doesn't it want to make music, dance, write a novel, bake a cake, maybe enjoy some Netflix and chill?

I am saying quite seriously that it doesn't act like an intelligent lifeform.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Maybe the best music for one's soul are the screams of agony of a planet's last survivors as they succumb to mutation or get slaughtered by what they believe to be is their loved ones.

Traveling is an important hobby and maybe Jenova just enjoys expanding it's horizons and seeing the universe for itself.

One violently induced planetary apocalypse at a time.

 

[Schrodingersbabyseal]

I don't think anyone here is arguing that Jenova is a fully sentient malevolent force. In fact, Jenova seems demonstrably amoral . I made the mistake of referring to this as the "control debate" in my opening comment, which I think put some people here on the defensive. It's a broad label for the discussion, but probably doesn't do it justice.

It is my feeling that Jenova's characterization has become more complex as the compilation has moved forward, both in the mind of the developers and in the compilation in general. My position on this, and why I think it operates within the framework of the "struggle" between Sephiroth and Jenova outlined in Sleepezi's video:

Jenova is not sentient in the way that the term is commonly used (though perhaps "sapient" would be the less anthropic option).
Jenova has displayed properties of consciousness.
Regardless, neither of these properties are really necessary for her to function in the narrative proposed here.
What's is needed is a display of agency. And this is why I think the confirmation of communication in the Ultimania Plus was much more interesting than Sephiroth's command to "open the door". It framed Jenova's call as one predicated upon agency instead of programming (Sephiroth literally used her like Siri). This also suggests that perhaps Tseng's musings regarding Hojo and Jenova's relationship in TkAA ch. 35 were more than baseless conjecture.

And why do you connect Whisper Harbinger to Jenova? Is it because it called Rubrum, Corceo and Viridi to help it fight in the Singularity? Let's not forget that those remnants of Sephiroth were actual beings of Lifestream corrupted by Sephiroth's will from the Negative Lifestream who were then purified upon defeat and rejoined the planet. It's quite likely that they are freed from their connection to Sephiroth as "remnants" and are now their own entities called from the "future" to help protect the planet's destiny.

Admittedly most of his connections were made in another one of his videos. So I can see why the connection between the remnants and the destiny color trio would be insufficient. A lot of the assumption does draw on chromatic story telling, I understand that deriving significance in things like yellow and purple does feel silly when taken singularly. But he (sleepezi) does highlight other surprisingly specific visual parallels between the harbinger and Jenova assets used elsewhere, I can't remember which video he specifically makes this comparison, but I will try and find it and edit this with a link when I am not operating from a phone.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

It has an instinctive drive to destroy planets,

The word used for "drive" and in *many* other situations to do with Jenova is 意思. It has the sense of "intention/wish/purpose", if more of those being feelings than something that is decided on. So it's something like... "It [Jenova] has an instinctive intention to destroy the Planet"

This is really important to establish because the Lifestream is given the same term when talking about what *it* wants to do. So as much as Jenova has it's own "instinctive intention", the Lifestream does as well (specificly in the context of being fine with Genesis's goals no less).

Where this gets really interesting though is with the Copies. If their "intentions" aren't strong enough vs the "intentions" of the being they are a copy of, then their "intentions" gets influenced by that beings "intentions". The stronger their own "intentions", the *less* they are influenced by the "intentions" of what they are a copy of. And Sephiroth... had Jenova introduced to him so *early* he would have had no "intentions" of his own to withstand Jenova's... So it's very much a feedback loop with Sephiroth and Jenova. Sephiroth has always has Jenova's "intentions" as a result... but he's for sure the one who is making the decisions based on those "intentions" rather than Jenova. It's kind of like Jenova is... sitting back and enjoying her son wreck everything with all the cool toys she gave him.

One thing that 意思 is *not* is "will" or "willpower". That kind of "will" is 意志. And I... really can't remember Jenova ever having that word used with her.

It should be noted that Jenova is described in that same definition as being very intelligent. Given how it knew how to manipulate the Cetra and turned them against each other, it does seem to know how human interactions work and how to take advantage of them. Which... to me makes her come across as being more actively malicious than just something doing it's instinctive thing. Sephiroth also has the whole range of human emotions and largely acts on them with Jenova seemingly going along with it.

The Lifestream, which has the same kind of "intention" is described as caring about the life living on it and not wanting to kill that life if it doesn't have to even while saving itself from Meteor. It also has a very good track record of healing whatever it comes in contact with so long as that thing isn't actively trying to hurt it. And it... is described as making decisions about things.

So... I think there's... *enough* there to make me think Jenova is making decisions about at least *how* she is going about doing things. She's not just going on a *mindless* rampage across the Planet to kill the Cetra. She's plotting behind their backs and getting them to kill each other off in TKAA. That's... more than enough reasoning being implied to make me think Jenova could decide if she was going to give Sephiroth control or not. Sephiroth is never portrayed as having to *fight* Jenova for control even though he is the one making decisions ever since he first ran into her. Which to me suggests Jenova *let* Sephiroth have control. And that manages to give both Jenova and Sephiroth agency for how they end up...

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

@ Schroedingerbabyseal: What properties of consciousness would you say Jenova has displayed?
Likewise, how would you define "agency"? Would you say that a malaria plasmodium or a hookworm has agency?

@ Obsidian: I agree, Jenova could be consciously manipulating the Cetra, but it could also have evolved so that it does these things instinctively, without awareness of self or others.
https://www.technologynetworks.com/...ors-by-turning-them-against-each-other-305815
It's adaptable, but so are plenty of organisms.
Covid seemed evil and malevolent too, striking seemingly at random, picking off the weakest among us, but then occassionally taking someone in robust health, or even a child.
I can't think of anything Jenova has done which can be regarded as clear and uncontestable evidence of intelligence. SE can tell me it's intelligent, but they haven't shown me that it is intelligent. Although, again, it depends what one means by intelligence.

 

[lethal01]

Well, Jenova's clearly not that intelligent, otherwise it would have had a sit-down and a good think about exactly what the purpose of its life was, and would have come to the realization that endlessly traveling through the universe devouring planets for no reason except that you can is a pretty futile way to live. Doesn't it want to make music, dance, write a novel, bake a cake, maybe enjoy some Netflix and chill?

I am saying quite seriously that it doesn't act like an intelligent lifeform.

Concluding that it doesn't like the things we humans enjoy thus it's not sentient is silly. Perhaps seeing new planets and sucking out lifetimes of memories is more fulfilling than anything we could do in our lives and is so much fun that Jenova has no problem doing it until the end of time.

I mean it came to Gaia and got to see the story of Final Fantasy 7.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Yes, well clearly I'm not arguing that because it doesn't seem to like curling up with a good book, it's obviously not intelligent. What I'm saying is that I can't think of anything Jenova has done which can't be accounted for by the behavioural instincts exhibited by one or other simple, non-sentient parasite on our earth. If you're going to call it intelligent, it has to do something that requires intelligence.

 

[S.L.Kerrigan]

I have no idea where you came up with that. I'm not saying that. I think the planet is dying on it's own due to reaching the end of it's lifespan and Sephiroth has a scheme to prolong it's existence.

As I understand it - and think Mako presented it? - the Planet also has a life to live and such life will end at some point. Mako was just drawing a comparison. This is why chapter 18 and Sephiroth are *very* misleading; Sephiroth is the only life form on this Planet to refuse to die and let go. And now he is stuck on a Planet at the end of its course; so what does he do? He tries to go back in time to try to get some more time. But the OG timeline is supposed to be the "good" timeline; it's the one protected by the whispers. It's the one where they manage to save the Planet, and humans learn to live with the Planet. Then it goes its course and ends up dying. Sephiroth is stuck in place and time 7 seconds before its death, and as he is very egoistic, he wants MORE. Which would be a bad outcome. Aerith believes he wants more by killing humanity, which would give more power to the Lifestream and prevent the Planet's energy to deplete too fast.

I thought that the idea of the planet naturally coming to the end of its life* approximately at the time of the game (+/- 2000 years ) was one of my original ideas. I am glad to see that we do not have 'completely' opposite views of the events.
Do you know of any textual evidence that would tend to support this idea? Because I arrived at it by rather tortuous ways...

* by this I mean that the point in time where the Lifestream must leave this rock has been reached

Are the Cetra capable of moving from one planet to another?

I think they can in some way (in the form of spiritual energy).

 

[Leafonthebreeze]

Jenova is what would happen if a whole bunch of viruses evolved into functioning as a single organism.

Jenova is a slime mould?

 

[Ryeleigh]

Jenova is a slime mould?

Ha ha, I was just about to say that Jenova kind of sounds like the antagonist in Dean Koontz's Phantoms.

 

[Mobius Stripper]

MobiusStripper
These people are gonna be so bummed when their intricate theories get jossed by a plotline that is far less thought-out.

Not at all. A lot of this is just coming from a place of love for the lore and the game, I have come up with things that haven't happened before and dont get disappointed. It is just a game in the end! But I still did my best to try and determine where things are heading!

That's cool! I personally stopped prediction-theorizing after I got burned one too many times by the Star Wars new trilogy. Now I only do post-hoc theorizing (which is just headcanoning I guess). But I can respect that not everyone feels the same way. Kudos to you for the effort you've put in!


Re: Jenova, I keep coming back to the story "Fever Dream" by Ray Bradbury:

Now he had no body. It was all gone. It was under him, but it was filled with a vast pulse of some burning. It was as if a guillotine had neatly cut off his head and his head lay shining on a midnight pillow while the body, below, still alive, belonged to somebody else. The disease had eaten his body and from the eating had reproduced itself in feverish duplicate. There were the little hand-hairs and the finger-nails and the scars and the toenails and the tiny mole on his right arm, all done again in perfect fashion.

I am dead, he thought. I’ve been killed, and yet I live. My body is dead, it is all disease and nobody will know. I will walk around and it will not be me, it will be something else. It will be something all bad, all evil, so big and so evil it’s hard to understand or think about. Something that will buy shoes and drink water and get married some day maybe and do more evil in the world than has ever been done.

 

[Eerie]

I thought that the idea of the planet naturally coming to the end of its life* approximately at the time of the game (+/- 2000 years ) was one of my original ideas. I am glad to see that we do not have 'completely' opposite views of the events.
Do you know of any textual evidence that would tend to support this idea? Because I arrived at it by rather tortuous ways...

We know there are at least 500 years after ACC which are peaceful, given that we have that flashforward of Red XIII, and there are still humans around. We know that in the OG at least, Bugenhagen warns that the Planet is at its end, and we are to think that it's because of how Shinra uses the Lifestream to create the mako energy. However, once that ends, no one can really tell how long is left. The idea is that the Planet is suffering during FFVII, and that it will end "soon" if we can't save it (from Meteor, Sephiroth and Shinra). But that's all we can do.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

The Planet itself is presented as being fine 500 years later. It's not at a "natural" end of its lifespan anymore than person in their twenties whose cancer that was in remission flared up, has a bunch of bleeding wounds and and who just got hit by a car is not at the end of their natural lifespan.

Take away the stuff killing the Planet and it goes back to "normal" for the happy ending. It's not "old" the way a person is and the Planet never was "too far gone" to save.

The trouble with both Jenova and the Planet is that... they're like something out of a Cosmic Horror story. Human understanding doesn't work on them for several fundamental reasons. The most basic reason that they're existences that involve *more* than their physical "being". The Lifestream is more than a bunch of spirit energy living in a rock. Jenova is more than just a bunch of cells that infect cells that aren't part of them. Saying that because we can't understand *why* they find what they do fulfilling that must mean that they're stupid and not self-aware is... really, really sloppy.

The Planet and Jenova have goals... and those goals oppose each other. One of them wants to kill everything, the other doesn't. Both of them are capable of seeing individual beings in some capacity and how *this* specific being is different than *that* specific being and therefore will be dealt with differently. And that *this* specific being is somehow part of themselves in some way while *that* other specific being is not. There is more going on with both of them than just "i need to do this thing without thinking about how i do it".

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

"Saying that because we can't understand *why* they find what they do fulfilling that must mean that they're stupid and not self-aware is... really, really sloppy."

I think it's pretty obvious that that is not what I'm saying.
Apart from anything else, I'm saying that I find it very easy to understand why Jenova does what it does: it does it from instinct, like any virus or bacteria. We don't need resort to "intelligent decision-making" as an explanation for its actions.
I'm certainly not someone who would call organisms "stupid" because they operate through survival instincts honed through millions of years of evolution.
I'm just waiting for someone who knows the complete canon better than I do - because I know a bunch of you do - to point out something Jenova has done which can only be done by an organism that is intelligent, self-aware, and has self-directed rather than instinctive goals.

Anyway, here's something interesting from TOTP, summarised by finalheaven over on tumblr. Jessie takes Tifa to an Avalanche meeting, and they watch a film:

"Then someone puts on a film about planetology by Yuri Romana. It’s about 30 minutes long, explaining the interaction between human life and the life of the planet. When people die, their spirit is absorbed into the planet and becomes part of the planet’s life, enriching it, and eventually returns to the surface as new life. Life changes shape and is in everything, is eternal, and the planet is the everlasting vehicle for it."

Now of course this is just a summary and not an exact word for word translation; I can't say for sure that "everlasting" is the exact word used in the Japanese.

 

[Ryeleigh]

I have a question that might seem stupid. Jenova works by going from planet to planet, killing all life and sucking up the lifestream before it goes to a new planet? And lifestream is basically ectoplasm of consciousness? Even if Jenova didn't originally have an intelligent consciousness, couldn't it have gained one by its steady diet of lifestreams? Kind of like Sephiroth gained the knowledge of the ancients when he fell into the lifestream?

 

[Mobius Stripper]

And lifestream is basically ectoplasm of consciousness? Even if Jenova didn't originally have an intelligent consciousness, couldn't it have gained one by its steady diet of lifestreams?

Have you seen The Expanse? It actually deals with something very similar to this! (And they discuss it a bit in episode 18 of Ty & That Guy)

 

[Ryeleigh]

Have you seen The Expanse? It actually deals with something very similar to this!

I haven't seen that, but it's basically what happened in Dean Koontz's Phantoms as well which is why the question occurred to me XD

And you know, it would be interesting to explore Jenova's potential as a sort of library of ancient and different consciousnesses and knowledge.